text:
Kim Family Search Discussion page ONE | TWO | THREE | FOUR | FIVE
Please feel free to discuss the Governor's report and the Kim Family search below in the comments.
Galice and Bear Camp Road pictures
Kim Family Search Discussion page ONE | TWO | THREE | FOUR | FIVE
Please feel free to discuss the Governor's report and the Kim Family search below in the comments.
Galice and Bear Camp Road pictures
Thank you all. I only wanted to share this info to let everyone know why I'm not doing more actively as I'm so passionate about this as everyone seems to be so actively DOING something & I want to so much, but it's hard to tell how things are going to be from one minute to the next and I don't want to commit to doing something and then not be able to follow through and let everyone down.
994 – maggie ALL forms of MD are hard, period.
Paul, Gayle, Lisa, and to all others who have suffered tragic events – my deepest empathy goes out to each and everyone of you
Maybe this is what has drawn this particular group together and have 'stuck' together & why we all feel so passionately about this, as well as we all have wanted so much in our life to do something that would actually make a significant difference. I've thought a lot why this particular group has come together and stayed together. I ran into a similar group years ago when we first got on-line – anyone remember Prodigy? We stayed together until they shut Prodigy down. A group of them actually got together in the summer and had a blast. People traveled across country.
Regarding reasons for why some people pull away: there can be a thousand and one reasons and I agree it does help to try to understand the person's reasons but some people are just plain selfish and mean spirited and unless everything is centered around them, then they have no use for those who can't center around them.
I've tried checking into other forums, etc, and I just can't stomach the hatefulness so I haven't been involved in any for a blue million years and didn't intend to get involved in this one, but I wanted correct info so much and felt so passionately about this. I think our country as a whole is tired of everyone passing the blame and want people to start taking responsibility for their own actions, which I think they should, but I also think this mind set has also caused a lot of people to forget how to be caring, understanding of humaness and compassionate.
Now that I have totally gotten off topic and given my 'views' I shall get back on topic. Maybe Joe needs to start another page just for us to general chit chat!!!
D.H. – be careful and keep an eye out on this person. Of course you know, they could post as one name here and another there. But from everyone's post here, its hard to imagine that anyone here would do that, not saying there couldn't be because we all are faceless people sitting behind a keyboard. I hope it's not anyone from here. Remember how many hits Joe said this was getting, so it may just be a 'lurker' who doesn't have the nerve to post here.
One of the things in the beginning of this, also, which made me start looking for more info was in poking around the internet for more correct info, I ran into a least have a dozen post here and there about people telling their tale of getting lost in this very same area, on Bear Camp road & I was horrified that this had been going on for so long and nothing had been done. Also, if I'm remembering correctly, at the beginning, some site had a video of a woman who had started up the other side of the mountain the same night the Kims did and ran into snow also. She tried turning around and couldn't and ended up backing all the way down. She was horrified as she too had thought, from reading a map, that this was a viable shortcut and said had she left a bit earlier which would've put her further up the mountain when she ran into snow, that she could've so easily gotten her self in exactly the same situation as the Kims and that she had nothing in her car to help her or help her survive. And I have no idea where I saw that to direct anyone to or give a link.
The more I think after reading post here, the more I'm leaning towards just continue on as is, maybe, as someone earlier suggested give each report a number and then use that number when referring to each report. Or since the post are number, maybe A, B, C, etc.
Is going to be interesting tomorrow. Dutch Brothers better show up and for the weekend, Glen is going to have to show us all how to hang upside down and get little sleep and still be viable.
Here a some links I found, one to an article the rest should be to video. Not anything new, but one does show the pilot who found James, but is interesting to watch to refresh for the report due out today.
This is also where I found the video of the woman I referred to. I couldn't remember the name of the road coming up the other side of the mountain, but if those who do, maybe you can go to the site and type in search and then look at the video links.
Often aviation accidents will have the same cause over and over, but it involves different persons and different locations. With a roadway it would seem it should take fewer incidents to result in a change being made. This seems even more true in a rural area where someone going out and posting a sign saying 'coast' won't be a major enterprise involving dozens of governmental jurisdictions.
Cartography changes might take a little more effort but I've often felt that even if there is a map warning it may not be seen or heeded.
There was an upthread use of the term "geocoding-light" for the use of a mass of untrained people for GIS data collection. I am trying to find the reference I came across long ago for the jurisdiction that actually did use senior citizens, boy scout troops and youth offender groups to do a massive geocoding project. I am sure some politician will want only the highway department to post signs, but it sure seems that a simple 'coast this way' and 'rugged terrain ahead–All vehicles should carry survival gear' signs is a solution that a few Boy Scouts or a few retirees could manage.
Fools Gold,
yes, that was me, coining the "geocoding-light" I liked your idea and will, when I get my act together post our discussion to the suggestions page as well.
And its true, the simple cartography changes (like improving the warning text/color/line weight is truly….not hard or time consuming give or take the inevtiable few meetings they will have over a few changes) it sounds like they reprint the maps yearly or so anyway, it would just be a minor change for the next printing….even the color scheme would be a pretty easy change without doing a major overhaul. I think its a good map, that needs some fine-tuning and more thought applied to the forest areas and warnings. I did give it a "C" and not an "F" ! 🙂
Well I love your first post for the day, sets things off very nicely I think. You wrote it very well and I agree with you most of the time, including today. I do agree also, that unfortunatley some people are too entirley selfish and narcisstic to be empathatic, and its just who they are, and they happen to be people in our own families and circle of friends at times. It's interesting what you write about prodigy. I dont know anything about that group. Anyway, you should not feel bad at all for your lack of time to devote to this cause, the posting you do here is enough goodwill, and that does mean and do something.
And I think you hit on something interesting about passing blame. There certainly is a balance there, and I respect your opinion on that being a bit older than myself (wouldnt know, unless you had said so before!). I've noticed some people have a hard time seeing the reality of situations now and just want to always blame the victim (or someone)…seems this could be a backlash from a long time of focusing away from personal responsibility? I wouldn't know but I have picked up on something like this and think it is interesting.
Well, lets see what today brings!
DH on page 3 post (335) you link yourself directly to djdee over on MT. I have gone over to MT and read the posts over there. Of course Pac is completely out of touch.
DH I think you need to let it rest. I myself am quite disturbed by your posts over on MT both in DIRECT support of Pac and your very negative comments about this blog and the people over here. I am not looking for a fight with you here but you brought this up.
For myself I will now always wonder how genuine your posts are here especially after you sent me a private email regarding your previous comments here and what you have written to Kati's dad.
If I were you the last thing I would want is people going over there and reading your posts. I don't think anyone is stalking anyone but I do think you have some explaining to do. If you really do support Pac then you should go and support him, if you don't then stop acting like you do.
There are a lot of people here spending a lot of their own time trying to make something good out of something horrible we don't need people involved in this process flip-flopping.
I can't speak for everyone but I feel pretty confident that nobody here that wants to help wants another Pac-a-like pretending to be something else.
This is all I am going to say about this. As far as I am concerned DH the rest is in your court. As for anyone else if you want to get very annoyed go ahead over to MT and read what is being said about our efforts over here and not just by Pac.
There is a press release issued by RescueWiki in Florida but it seems to simply be a site with a good name and high hopes but no actual content or procedures page other than the normal 'how to use Wiki' stuff.
well, I've been trying to pick my battles…
all I can say about that blog, is that what I did read (only about 2 pages worth) pac was in true form, and I found "passingthetime" person to be quite reasonable. And I have also found DH confusing but dont want to hurt her feelings anymore if she doesn't mean to be, since I did once. For the record, I am not passingthetime….just mapper.
in fact, starting to feel weird that you all call me mapper instead of my real name.
Glenn, you have courage to bring this up. Allow me to now duck for cover.
For the record, I read every page of the MT. I agree with mapper. Pac.. his usual self. I will say this, at least he picks a side and sticks with it. DH, I am completely confused. Passingthetime seems to simply yet passionately be defending the kims.
Mapper, scooch over, Im ducking in there.
I could not find any article in todays Oregonian.
Kudos to Glenn for outing a most strange situation…Pac is Pac is Pac. D.H. – I confess I am utterly confused on your position, esp in light of your comments / apology to Kati's dad in contrast to your seemingly being a twin of Pac over on M.T. – and, for the record, I never post over there as Paul or anyone else. I have NO desire to ever engage Pac-thetic again in this lifetime. Hey, I like that new name.
Paul – thanks, I looked too and didn't see anything.
Glenn, Thank you for the info. It really saddens me to think what must happen in peoples lives to bring out such anger and comments. It also reminds us that under the anonymity of the web some posters can be less than honest and forthcoming. I had to catch my breath at the comments on MT, am saddened by the duplicity DH, and am ever so thankful for Joe's blog here.
Thank you to all who have posted here with genuine open minds, concern and compassion. While I can't participate to the level many of you are, I am catching up at least daily and appreciate this group and Joe's special space.
Joe – I'm Sooo Confused 😕
This page is labeled the Governor's Report – do we not have a general comments page anymore? Or, are you going to start a New Governor's Report page once it is released??
9- Paul – Yes, I too was looking for the Oregonian article
and was unable to find it. I'm wondering if they have to
wait until after it's officially made public/press
conference etc.?
14- Anyway, I pulled this quote from it:
"'We are going to provide them with an after-action report that really is who knew what when and how they learned the information or how they received the information,' said Evinger. 'It's about what went right and what they could have done better.'"
It's from one of the outside Sheriff's in charge of the
Talk about diplomacy! Check out that last sentence!
I wonder how much deep and thorough this investigation will
really be. The fact that they're taking another week may
be a good sign…
I am glad that we have raised all the questions we have
raised here, and that they have been looking at this blog.
14- typo
"I wonder how deep and thorough this investigation will
really be"
8 (and prior) – Mapper and Tara, please make room for me because I need to duck, too. I couldn't stomach reading all of it, but what I did read was plenty. Pac is his usual self, and DH is just – well, as said above, confusing. I don't remember how it is that I ran across Joe's blog early on, but I'm glad. No worries about me posting there. Life is too short, and I've been spending most of it camped out right here because I think this is a good place.
12- Angela –
I believe this is the pre-Govenor's report breakfast
roundtable general discussion!
Lisa – (17) Of course, How silly that I forgot that official meetings and discussions always have pre-discussions and roundtables!
Well, I just read a couple of pages over there and had to hold myself back. Pac is even worse than I thought, and definitley an abuser, he just is. And I can't believe how others have followed suit. The passingthetime person is totally reasonable and they are just slamming her/him with insluts. I….really hope that person comes over here, at least pac was kind enough to supply her/him with the link. I can't believe he is trying to make that person think they are crazy, and everyone is just jumping on the bandwagon…it is hard to read….yuck.
17/ Lisa, yes, 'tis…pass the Dutch Brothers please ?
🙂 I need to work on my typos/spelling
anyway, yes of course, the round table. I love this dignified blog. I feel like I just came back to the good neighborhood.
19- Mapper…don't know if you read my discussion many,many pages ago about rural vs city, Portland vs rural Oregon, and hostility towards all things California in Oregon, but I think some of that is at play over on MT. I am not defending it, I am just saying it exists in this state and it is kind of sad.
The comical thing is, as far as I can tell, very few people on this post are from CA., only the Kims were.
20 – Did someone say Dutch Bros? At least I can stop waiting for it to be the 5th (well, and wait longer for the OSSA report). And it's the weekend, so we can stay up into the wee hours to discuss – assuming that there is much substance to discuss.
yes, it is kind of funny to me, as I have been accused of being a californian several times…I did live there 7 months out of my 29 years….so, that is probably too much as far as some are concerned! but I had compared this to how wisconsin people hate illinois people…I am now realizing it is so much worse! I also read about the hate war on the city-data message boards…..quite a lot of hate for the californians.
I'm not even going over there (MT) to look! I've seen enough here!
I really think there are deeper issues that fuel that
kind of hostility.
I think 'passing the time' is a very interesting name
I hope they feel that calm!
just ordered dutch bros. coffee…cant wait to try it!
26 – Go Tara! I do hope that it's as good out of the bag as it is out of their little drive by hut. I'm sorry I can't help myself whenever this comes up 😳
'Hating' other people is a cheap way – a quick fix that
'haters' use to try boost their own self-esteem.
'I'm better than them.', etc.
It's a shallow and useless waste of time, and really
just makes the 'haters' more bitter or negative and
unhappy, because part of them knows how low it is.
I'm sure I'll be the next to order the coffee…I'm becoming more curious all the time.
come on mapper… give it try…. insert peer pressure here. 🙂
In an analogy type of comparison, if:
good self-esteem = good health
'hating' = junk food
I really think Dutch Bros should give me free coffee for life after all of this for all of the free advertising (and to RRR and JoCo, too, because they started it by first mentioning it and getting me all riled up).
I agree Maggie. I got all riled up about it too.
Or, better yet, Joe should get paid for advertisements and add their logo on his site…. that way, we could all just click on the logo and get our coffee quick and easy.
34 – Perfect, Tara! Even better if we could click the link and a latte just appears.
35 – Thanks for the link, Joe. It will be nice once we have all of each, won't it?
You knows guys, I'm got posting anywhere for a few days, so this is the last for a while. I am not trying to be deceptive, just useful and honest. I don't believe it's necessary to be on one side or the other, whatever the "sides" are. Personally, at this point, I want nothing more than something positive to come out of all this. I have started a project to honestly assist SAR make some money, or get some equipment from corporate sources. Volunteer SAR needs helps. The truth is the real me is usually right there on the table. If Pac is a friend, so be it. Right now he's certainly being nicer to me that anyone else on these boards. That doesn't mean I agree with everything he says, or especially his delivery. If you really knew me, you would see that I am a loving mother, grandmother, and mother in law. A retired USAF patriot. A bit of a geek and a golfer. A person that tends to be kind to others. And that's about all you'd really need to know. I have enjoyed much of my time here, and will continue to observe. I'm not sure what at this point it would have benefitted anyone or anything for me to participate further than I have anyway. Believe it or not… I now have a fondness for you all.
One of the things that has come to my attention is
how important it is for those whose jobs directly affect saving people's lives to not become jaded or 'burned-out' at
work, or to feel a kind of numbing toughness that produces
a more cavalier, distanced, 'I'll get it done,' approach.
I had noticed how before the search was narrowed to
Josephine county, the quotes involved official saying
things like, 'that missing family,' which almost makes
them sound like more distant 'objects'. Then, after
they found Kati and the girls and were looking for James,
they said 'we're treating this as if we're searching for
one of the members of our own family.'
I think that's the right idea, I just think it would have
been helpful if they truly had that idea all along.
24 – Not wanting to offend any Oregonians, but when we spent a lot of time there with family and visiting some property we had there for some years, the scourge of having CA plates was palpable. We were seen as alien invaders coming to contaminate the state, I think, despite us being well behaved and following the rules. Obviously, most locals up there are gracious, warm people, and if otherwise, we wouldn't be havng these discussions about the Kims now. But Californians have definitely been seen as interlopers for as long as I can recall.
As an aside, my kids (grown) still can't get over other people pumping our gas at the OR service stations, as they are too young to remember full service stations here at home. Do they still do that, and if so, it would have been harder for the Kims to have slipped unnoticed into a gas station, possibly paying by cash.
And I thank many of you for taking the time to see what my comment last night was about. I did feel personally stalked, and I still have no idea what that other persons motivations are toward me. With someone like me, I will defend myself. But for now… it's low profile Dee who would rather not develop high blood pressure. And where IS that Dutch Bros. anyway?
40 – Madeleine, yes we still can't pump our own gas here. Wow, that's a point I never even thought of until you mentioned it – wherever the Kim's got gas, it would have been pumped for them.
re#2: Thanks Frances, you're kind.
39- addition
I don't mean to over-generalize – I don't know how all
officials were feeling about searching for the Kims in
the beginning i.e. 'another missing family,' or 'we've
got to find this missing family!'.
Most likely there were officials with all different
views. I just got those impressions from quotes I saw from some officials.
39 – Lisa, regarding LE or searchers getting "burned out". It is hard for anyone in those positions not to become drawn into the case personally, but they have to walk a line where they are still able to operate rationally and not make decisions based upon more personal reasons. If not for the ability to detach when needed, nobody could survive those jobs. Think of seeing people you consider family missing, hurt or killed everyday, you would not be able to maintain for long. But I don't think it meeans the are burned out or not giving their best, they are trying to be objective. I agree with you that the search seemed to take on anoter dimension after the rescue, but I think that was normal. And I do believe that it became a personalized effort for everyone involved.
I speak from experience on this, as my job has taken me into places I will never forget, dealing with people who do heinous things to people who didn't deserve it. But you learn to compartmentalize to a point so it doesn't take you down with it. And you turn your feelings into something positive to get the job done. Otherwise, you can't help anybody.
45- I agree you have some very good points there. I just
don't necessarily have as much confidence as you seem to
that all the officials necessarily cared as much as you think/hope they did all along.
I know you have to compartmentalize to some degree. I did
some advocacy work for abused children which included a
chain saw murder of a spouse.
I just think that it's a real and present danger that
sometimes people can become so detached that they don't
do as good of a job as they could.
46 – I have to chime in with this again. Maybe it's my naive, optimistic and hopeful way that I am, but I really have seen or heard NOTHING that has convinced me that anyone actually did not care. Whatever issues there were, I still can't believe that this was one of them. I could be wrong, but I just haven't seen any evidence to suggest it.
Lisa, agreed, and I've run across people who say that no case has gotten to them as they are "always" detached. That tells me a lot about them, and they would not be the person I want on my case were I a family member. Nor would I want the other extreme.
What I would want is a consummate professional who can get the job done without being hampered by either a too-personal involvement or a complete lack of empathy. Another thing is that some of the best people I know and have worked with simply don't come across well on TV!
46- This is the type of thing that can't really be proved
with evidence, but that does not mean that it is not
an important issue, and aspect of this kind of work.
I'm not saying that I know this to be true. There were
just certain quotes that seemed to reflect certain
attitudes, and there also seemed to be a lack of speed,
efficiency, and dedication to handling some of the
important information and leads. It is a big issue in this
kind of work in general, and it's possible that some of
those routine attitudes may have affected this case.
Just because something can't be proven, doesn't mean it
can't or shouldn't be mentioned or discussed.
49- Also, I'm not saying that I thought there was
anyone who didn't care at all. It's more about how much
caring there was, at different times, some of which could
have been critical to finding them sooner.
50- Just for an example, it seemed like there were various
reasons why clearing BLM 34-8-36 sooner slipped through
the cracks. But John James mentioned Friday how he thought it should be done. It turned out it didn't get done until John Rachor did it on Monday.
Now again, I'm not saying that had to do with how much
caring there was. But when everyone seems to know how
common of a mistake it is to take BLM 34-8-36 at the
fork, it is still hard to figure out why that wasn't
done sooner in a critical/emergency SAR situation. Even in a 'courtesy clearing of roads'. It seems like a no-brainer.
Lisa, I agree that the checking of that road seemed like the obvious place to look, given what we know now and what was known early on. That's why I am awaiting the details of the process which I hope will be included in the upcoming reports. I did a lot of criticizing of some of the principals in this case early on, but now will wait for the reports and any comments from them to see their side of what they did. There are so many aspects of any operation that are simply not made public at the time, but we should be seeing some of that info soon.
51- addition
It actually seems to me based upon what I have heard even from JoCoSAR that the fact that 34-8-36 was not cleared was more because there were some assumptions made that they probably weren't on that road. Hopefully, we'll get to
hear more of that explained.
52- I agree Madeleine! 🙂
48/Madeleine – the detached thing does not bother me so much…we don't work in their worlds, and – as a human being, if you are dealing with difficult issues, if you are to surviv e in your profession, at some level you have to detach. I'm thinking of oncologists who deal with terminal cancer patients; SAR professionals whose subjects are often found deceased; homicide detectives, coroners, psychologists who specialize in deranged people…etc. If these people did not "detach" in some respects, they would lose their sanity AND their ability to do their jobs. I think Glenn could speak to this better than I as he has done SAR work in the past.
49 – Lisa, this is just my (not so) humble opinion on this. I promise, this is not aimed at you at all but at this tendency in general to suppose we know how much people care and how much it even really matters.
I agree that speculations about people caring can be mentioned or discussed, but just my personal opinion that it's not really fair to assume we know what is in someone's heart, especially when there are still so many facts not yet in. Way, way back on whatever page when this came up and people said that Brian Anderson and Sara Rubrecht "didn't care" and that his tears on TV were either fake or for his own personal/political reasons I said then, too, that we do not know this and that it isn't fair to assume – that's just how I am about juding people's insides. I've been called naive before for taking people at face value as I did with what I saw as sincerity in that press conference, but as we started to hear more from JoCoSAR, it started to seem as if maybe some folks had been judged prematurely on how much they cared or not – it's fine, no impportant!, to look at what was done right, what was done wrong, what needs to be done in the future, but to me that is, in many ways, separate from what is supposedly in someone's heart. Honestly, if I'm ever missing, I want someone to FIND me, and so as long as they are doing their job, I don't really care how emotionally involved they are or are not. Madeleine nailed it, in my opinion – without a certain amount of detachment, most folks couldn't make it through more than about one very sad case. Now clearly, if someone does make callous statements about missing people (and there is one of those, but I haven't heard his side yet – maybe it was out of context?), then they are probably not the right person for the job.
Anything without proof *can* be discussed and speculations made – I just don't always think it's fair, and I don't think it's even remotely near as important as the ultimate actions taken/not taken, regardless of feelings. Ultimately, if someone is to be hung on something, let it be on their provable deeds, not on their improvable thoughts/feelings. Just my $0.02. This one gets me every time. Stepping off soap box. No offense intended, so I hope none is taken.
Is it Noon yet? 😉
(55) This touches on a subject that really varies from person to person. Detachment is critical to long-term existence in any "emergency" related services and longevity is key to experience and hopefully excellence.
However, empathy is as much of a skill for an emergency professional as it is an emotion or feeling. Empathy is an important part of the equation and emergency personnel need to excel at it however it doesn't mean they need to be "emotionally" involved.
A fine line but an important one. When people get to close to a situation and emotions take over it doesn't always mean you get the best decision process.
I believe I posted earlier about SAR needing to set operational tempo to get the upperhand in these situations. Good decisions and a level head are two requirements in achieving a sustainable edge.
For myself I was a "first responder" for emergency situations and any "SAR" related was mostly Search and Recovery – that is no emotion game and a game that is certainly no fun at all.
The bottom line with all of this. Emergency Services are made up of professionals who are real people, they are human, they have feelings and nightmares, they make mistakes and they are certainly NOT robots.
56- Maggie I'm not assuming anything, and I'm not hanging
I'm not assuming I know what's in someone's heart.
It is fair to bring up this issue. It's a very real
issue in this kind of work in general, and it's possible
that it affected this case at certain points.
I'm not pointing fingers at individuals. I really just
wanted to mention that at times it seemed like these
issues could have affected the outcome of the case.
If you read what I said carefully and objectively, you'll
see that I was generalizing, and not claiming to absolutely
know these things and indite people.
To me, the most important thing is that James Kim's life
was lost, and it's vital to understand all the potential
factors which may have contributed to that loss.
I would never not bring up such a potentially important
issue – just don't take it wrong.
What I brought up was a grey area, and people seem to
being making it black and white – it's not.
Maggie, good points, but I know there are many who feel like Lisa. And I also think that my using the word "detached" perhaps wasn't the best choice. It sounds too cold and impersonal. I have always maintained that being "professional" can include having total empathy for victims, family members, patients, whatever the case may be. Part of being professional is to keep personal opinions to one's self out of respect to family and others. Doesn't always happen under duress, though, which may account for some unfortunate comments in this case.
It's similar to how LE officers often exhibit a dark humor among themselves, as do medical examiners, doctors, funeral directors and others at times. It shouldln't spill over to the public, for obvious reasons. LE gets in trouble all the time for some comment slipping out.
When the typed transmissions between LAPD officers in their vehicles became public some years ago during the Christopher Commission endeavors, there was some very damning stuff in there that was actually nothing at all, just stress relief between colleagues. Wrong place to do it, though, it came under scrutiny and caused all sorts of problems. And some of it was admittedly over the top.
are you guys reading the report? and Joe are you going to link it? I found something about it on Kgw.com
58 – Thank you, Lisa. I promise I'm not taking it wrong and did read carefully and objectively. You said you don't have as much confidence that they did care, and I'm not so inclined without more information because it doesn't seem entirely fair to me. I could be wrong. We just disagree – no harm in that. Different thoughts and ideas are part of what's so interesting and great here.
As I said yesterday, the most important part is not
blaming individuals.
The most important part is understanding what happened
and why.
Some of the reasons why will undoubtedly only be known
to officials themselves, even after the reports are out.
As Paul said, sometimes the whole truth can only be found somewhere in the middle.
But motivation influences action. And it can be a big issue
in this kind of work.
I've said many times that I thought the SAR effort really
tried and did the best they knew at the time, but until
the search picked up, it "seemed" there were times when
the search was being performed just as a "duty" or "job".
And that was very frustrating for me.
60 – Madeleine, exactly! I have plenty of "inside jokes" about (believe it or not) my mother's illness, death, etc. that would not be funny or appropriate outside of the context of the exact situation at that time with those others who were under equal "duress," for lack of a better term. Dark humor is an odd thing.
are you guys reading the report??
yeah I think it is. Im reading it….. its got alot of information
62- Thanks, Maggie.
It's important to understand all the possiblity I was
allowing. I didn't say that I didn't "have as much
confidence that they did care." I truly think EVERYONE
cared. It is more a matter of degrees of caring, at different points, and how that can affect an outcome.
This is what I said:
"I just don't necessarily have as much confidence as you seem to that all the officials necessarily cared as much as you think/hope they did all along."
It's important not to 'black and white' it. I'm not a
'black and white' girl. Most of life happens in the
grey areas, and people try to call it black or white,
because it makes them feel more comfortable.
The truth is, life is really more complex and intricate
than most of our designations allow.
I really do think all the officials cared to some degree
all along.
Interesting that it is all timeline. I guess I expected some kind of commentary for some reason? I probably won't get to completely delve into this until tonight.
Boy, am I GLAD my Dutch Bros. came before I checked in for the first time today… am sitting here gulping… score A!
Will be as short as possible off topic and them get back on topic…
I take everyone at 'face' value here, the face they put on themselves here. I'm not going over the the MT board as I think that's where I went once just to check on the 'flavor' over there and couldn't take much of it and came back here and posted how horrible I thought it was there and everyone was a follower of Pac. Immediately after that is when I recall seeing the first post from D.H.
basically giving a negative viewpoint of our views here referring to me as 'bitter Frances' even though I CLEARLY stated I had not read the whole forum/message board. And I seriously doubt at that time that D.H. had had enough time to sit and read from beginning to that current point when she posted her comments. Also, I trust Glen's and other's opinion as they have proven themselves to be open minded, level headed, objectionable, yet still understanding and empathic. D.H. attitude seemed to soften a bit as others attempted to try to explain to her what our general view & goal was.
D.H. – I do not know how I feel now, but if you have inticed someone against you, then you have no one to blame but yourself. Don't be posting here looking for support if you have fanned the flames yourself. If you have not, then I repeat my caution to be careful. If you are posting one opinion there and another here, well, you are the one who has to face yourself in the mirror every day and I for one will be cautious of you.
I have to go now, but will check back in and read the report
Here's a link to another article I found from the
Boston Globe. It put things a little differently than
other articles have, and it's an interesting outside
(But it doesn't say anything absolutely new.)
The other thing I just want to state here in general it is best to not to "read into" what I say. If you do that – you will undoubtedly go farther than what I mean, and you will go into your own interpretations.
I really write what I think, I don't imply things. A lot
of times I think there are subtleties and other possibilities.
Odd, kgw.com no longer even shows the link on their home page. Anyway, katu.com has this article Governor's Office press release to kind of go with the timeline:
Maggie, you have e-mail (hopefully) at your website.
Was it ever determined if CNN's footage of a cut lock lying next to the gate was for real? An old cut lock? A throwdown cut lock? Just curious, I know we discussed it but don't recall if CNN ever explained or reiterated that it was found that way.
I emailed CNN and asked for an explaination and cited the news reports that claimed there was no lock… and ones that claimed it wasnt a BLM lock… I asked for follow up on that, or an email. still no word back.
Oh, I sent the email WEEKS ago.
Reading through the timeline it occurred to me to try to imagine being Kati with 2 small children all alone after James left to find help and did not return, for two long nights and nearly 3 days in the wilderness… all alone with the children! In a car with no gas, no tires, no heat and probably no light any longer, to say nothing of no food, water or other basic needs. And no James. If nothing else I would like to hear how she managed to get through those two nights.
Thanks, Tara. I wonder who else would have been putting non-BLM locks up there, if indeed that lock was ever on the gate (or even there before the media arrived)? Too bad they couldn't pull prints from the lock to see who handled it, not much chance of that, though.
I'm sorry, but I always distrust politicians jumping on bandwagons, so wish Senator Feinstein had waited for all the currently scheduled reports before asking for yet another investigation. I know the locked gate is an important issue, but still….
There remains the issue of local access for people with legitimate reasons to get up there, as I understand it, and I hate to see that access permanently impacted until all things are considered.
82 – Gayle, those two nights alone have haunted my mind many times as well. How incredibly terrifying.
79 – Madeleine, got it! I'll respond this evening with a little story 🙂
Madeline, I think there will only be one "investigation" by BLM into the gate and signage issue, which is already underway if some of the email responses to (maggie or others on this blog are correct). The answer to the Senator in about four weeks or so, will just come from that review.
The Senate is in session. The Senator's questions are so targeted to that one gate which is certainly OK, but it doesn't mention problems that may exist across the BLM inventory. Well this is just the first of many letters I am sure that Dept of Interior has received on these issues.
I think it's good that Senator Feinstein is stepping up.
That will definitely put more pressure on the BLM than
we could ourselves. And there may (or may not!) have been
requests from Kim family and friends for her to do so.
I think it will be hard to keep the gate locked. But she
also asked if there was adequate signage! And as we know,
there is not! So the more pressure, the better, to get it
done. 🙂
I also want to say for the record – that I do know that
high intensity public work – like law enforcement and social/medical work, can be extremely difficult and
taxing, and is truly honorable and commendable work.
I think they deserve really good benefits and need time
to rejuventate themselves.
I did not mean to sound overly-critical or unfair.
I was just trying to point out how sometimes relative
degrees of 'burnout' can be an issue than can affect
I have just started dissecting the Governor's Report and this sequence of events jumped out at me:
01 1000 DEC 2006 – Oregon Emergency Response System – Call taken from Dennis Dinsmore, Curry County [Sheriff].
Incident description:
Curry County [Sheriffs Office] is requesting air assist in looking for overdue family that left Portland en route to California. It's believed that they took a road out of Grants Pass to Gold Beach. GR at 3 (my bolding).
By 10:50 a.m., the Oregon National Guard knew that the "Search area is somewhere between the towns of Galice and Agness northeast of Gold Beach near the southern Oregon coast." GR at 3.
This caught my attention immediately – as early as Friday morning, Curry County believed that the Kim family was lost between Grant's Pass and Gold Beach.
The National Guard was preparing to launch a search in this area, Gr at 4, and recognized the need to "Have people that can ride in helicopter that know the roads," GR at 3. The weather in the search area was "clear and blue skies." GR at 3,4. So before Noon, the Oregon National Guard selected a helicopter, assigned the mission to a National Guard officer, and was preparing to launch. GR at 4.
Now, this seems like a plan that was destined for success. But shortly before Noon, the National Guard search is abruptly put on hold:
01 1151 DEC 2006 – Oregon Army National Guard Aviation
– Called Curry County Sheriff's Department, LT Dinsmore, 541-247-3242, to inform him that we were notified of a civilian helicopter agency [Carson Helicopters of Grants Pass] has been contracted to assist in the search.
– The sheriff indicated that the Father is extremely wealthy. Been trying to get helicopters to assist in search. The father is taking a private jet coming into Medford and the sister is taking a private jet into Gold Beach. GR at 5.
However, the Curry County Sheriff still wanted the National Guard:
01 1222 DEC 2006 – Oregon Army National Guard Aviation
– Curry County Sheriff's Department, LT Dinsmore, called. He wanted to know if we would launch a helicopter if he could ground all civilian aircraft in the area.
. . .
– Called COL Greenwood to update him on the situation
– Said we can't interfere w/ civilian agencies
. . .
– Family contracted Carson Helicopters
– 3 a/c airborne for search mission en route to Curry County GR at 6.
And then comes this interesting detail:
1 a/c working Grants Pass to Gold Beach over Bear Camp Road
– 2nd a/c en route to Newport to work south along coast
– 3rd a/c working Roseburg to N. Bend
. . .
– Family strongly feels they are along highway 101. Family wants Carson to concentrate along 101. GR at 7.
So there's what I get out of this part of the timeline: By 9 a.m. on Friday morning, December 1, Curry County believed that the Kim Family was lost between Galice and Agness, and by Noon the Oregon National Guard was prepared to send helicopters, trained search teams, and employing people "that know the roads." GR at 3, into that very area.
And then this National Guard operation is put on hold by James Kim's own Father, Mr. Spencer Kim (preceded,as has been reported, by his lawyer). Mr. Kim proceeded to disregard allOregon efforts and launch his own search, and even presumed to direct the search area, although he presumably had no particular knowledge of Southern Oregon mountains.
By taking these actions and making these decisions, it appears that Mr. Spencer Kim may well have sabotaged a National Guard operation that might well have found his Family on Friday afternoon.
Wouldn't it be sad if the helicopter that the Kim Family heard on Friday afternoon was a lone Carson pilot doing a quick fly-over of Bear Creek Road while rushing to comply with Mr. Spencer Kim's directions.
87 – Barnadad, thanks, I understand the need for putting pressure to get things done. I've just had bad luck with some politicians who champion a cause that is a hot button item, then don't follow up later when funds are needed or other issues come up. Nothing personal toward DF.
88 – Lisa, I of course didn't take your comments for anything other than the best of intentions with respect for people who do these jobs. You were stating how some comments struck you, and that is perfectly OK! Your thoughtfulness has been apparent throughout these discussions.
90 – Brenda, that jumped out at me, as well. It sounds as though Mr Kim's search impeded the SAR and possibly contributed to delays in locating the family. How sad.
82/Gayle – so well put, and I am all but certain it was reported previously that the car battery was long gone, so yes, they had no light either. 2 terrifying nights after having already spent seven ? A worse nightmare I cannot imagine.
Turf battle?
Sorry. Blame the family is bad enough but blame the family's lawyer? Is that supposed to be one step better?
Helicopters can coordinate their search patterns. What do you think happens when fire, police and three TV news stations all have helicopters in Los Angeles at the scene of some event?
Also, it seems that the National Guard helicopter was tasked for an area rather distant from the coastal area the family-hired helicopters were to search, so don't blame this on the family's lawyer: what did that National Guard helicopter pilot want: all civil aircraft west of the Missippi grounded for his benefit?
If there was a discrepancy in the search areas better procedure would be to describe the search areas, give a brief statement of the reasons… and come to a decision as to the most likely area.
90/Brenda: If you're interpretation of that information is correct, that is sad and pathetic indeed. I would hope that there are laws that allow govt agencies to conduct searches unimpeded by overt pressure from the families involved. Great wealth and power has often been at odds with great common sense – though well intentioned his efforts surely were.
It is interesting to contrast that, to this:
(From the SF Chronicle article about the search which
has not been disputed)
[Friday afternoon]
"With no searchers having driven about 30 miles of Bear Camp Road, Dinsmore called for a helicopter from the state Office of Emergency Management. A Blackhawk military helicopter was dispatched from Salem.
'That took a while," Dinsmore said. 'Sara and I determined we were going to clear the road by air. There are stretches of road where there's heavy tree cover and it's hard to see from the air. Sara indicated they would have a Sno-Cat clear the entire length.'
The helicopter went up late Friday afternoon, came back to Gold Beach at 5:30 p.m. to refuel and searched again until midnight. There was no sign of the Kims. Eventually, Dinsmore believed, Sno-Cat vehicles were able to make it through the entire road.
'We had cleared Bear Camp," Dinsmore said. "We cleared it as far as people could travel in wheeled vehicles and then with helicopter flyover into the nighttime hours.'"
Joe, thanks for posting. I drafted questions on the GR timeline as well. Two overlap your first and third above.
My other question is on the "leisurely" pace of dealing with the cell phone maps on Sunday – meet at 0800, call the cell expert at 1100, plan to search somewhere in the afternoon. I think Kim was alive all day Sunday. SAR HQ's got notice of the ping Saturday night. I thought SAR HQs works 24/7 during a search even if daylight is needed for ground assets.
Your point on air assets is very troubling in light of this fact (which in retrospect may have been the perfect SWAG) that the Oregon National Guard identified the likely search box on day one of the search on Friday, Dec 1st at 1050:
"Search area is somewhere between the towns of Galice and
Agness northeast of Gold Beach near the southern Oregon
So Oregon Nat Guard flies a two hour plus mission on Friday and is not used again until late Monday afternoon when its FLIR goes up. Is this because of the reliance on three Carson Helicopters? Also the Oregon NG Friday mission is delayed by a couple of hours because the Carson helos are in the area- OK that I understand.
But over the weekend, can't four helicopters search adjacent sectors of airspace if someone draws the quadrants in the first place? Who is responsible for "getting a handle on the air mission"? The private helo pilot didn't have an issue with this- so the FAA Air Traffic Control didn't seem to be an issue. (I am not a pilot). But it sounds like the NG sat on the ground awaiting a call for 72 hours. I have no problem with them sitting, but why no liasion member at the SAR HQ that is trained to employ available assets.
This is a point for clearing up on future searches. Thanks again Joe.
Paul, I was thinking the same thing. Where I live, we have skies full of craft at any given emergency, the traffic/news helicopters alone manage to take up a great deal of airspace. I don't get the Guard wanting all civilian craft down before venturing forth, unless there were dozens of small craft out for a looksee. It would, though, be a bit tricky having simultaneous search ops going on in the same area by different entities not communicating with each other, that part I can understand.
I am curious about Mr. Kim's strong thought that they had met with problems when already at the Coast, wonder how he drew that conclusion?
Turf battle…
Is there any specific information as to who scrubbed the planned National Guard mission or just that the NG pilot was pissed that he would not be alone up there and he would not be the one calling the shots so he took his marbles and went home?
I guess one of the questions is, if the National Guard
helicopters had searched more, would they have done more
than just cleared Bear Camp?
It is easy to assume that they might have, but the
Blackhawk helicopter did not search local roads, and
that effort was directed by local Sheriff personnel,
from two counties.
It was late at night by the time clearing Bear Camp
was completed, but adjacent roads were not cleared the
next day, Saturday.
I wonder why?
I don't think Mr. Kim interfered with the search by sending only one helo into the Bear Camp area. Surely he wouldn't have thought he had exclusive access to the three areas he was searching that precluded the NG from flying? Did I miss something that indicates he demanded excluive rights to search these areas? I thought his lawyer notified the agencies of their intentions, which was proper.
[82] .. I have often thought about Kati's situation that time too. To be alone in such dire circumstances would be awful enough, but to be there as she was with her precious, helpless little ones in such apparent hopeless circumstances boggles my mind.
102- It will be interesting to hear her story, but I think
in such circumstances you often find your greatest strength,
and just like James did, you give everything you have to
try and make the situation better.
90 – Brenda, thank you for laying that out as you have. I haven't had the time to realy dig through the timeline with as much attention as I will this weekend, but just in scanning it over, the same thoughts occurred to me as well as something I wanted to look at more carefully when I re-read. It's concerning and saddening.
Just a couple other things I noticed:
GP page 12 – Sounds like Wilsonville Visitor Center provided "scenic" routes not on the map?? Interesting. I wonder what those routes were. Of course, there's still the whole thing about Kati saying they hadn't gone there, but that struck me.
GP page 14 – As Joe mentioned, it seems really odd to me this whole idea that Sara Rubrecht reported Bear Camp and all spur roads searched. Wouldn't most know that it simply wouldn't be possible considering how many miles of those there are? Just struck me oddly.
GP page 19 – As part of the description of James, presumably by Kati (?) "not an outdoorsman." Nope, just an everyday kind of guy who found himself in this situation. I've heard descriptions of James that gave me the impression he was fairly savvy about the outdoors, but that doesn't make him a survival expert, so the idea that they did as well as they did for as long as they did seems that much more remarkable to me after that comment.
GP page 23 – I'll be interested to hear more about the "technical communication difficulties"
Anyway, those are the things that jumped at me on first glance.
Since people always seem to like suggestings for searching through information, even in .pdf (Acrobat Reader) files such as this one, there is a binoculars icon near the top, and if you click it, you can do a search.
You can also save this file to your computer if you'd like by clicking on the toolbar – makes it handy in case you'd like to review it while not online.
Re: GR 5:51pm
phrase "last cell phone use" seems to have been attributed to a tower in Salem, a tower in Eugene and also a tower in Glendale(?) partly because "last cell phone use" is an ambiguous phrase being sometimes used to indicate 'last known cell phone use prior to their disappearance' and 'last use of their cell phone during their disappearance'. 'last known cell phone use' might have been better terminology: atleast that would have alerted people to the fact that it is a value that might change during the investigation.
104 – OK, the mind is broken today. Please imagine that every time I typed "GP" above that I actually typed "GR." I don't know what "GP" would even stand for.. 😳
105- Fool's Gold
Can I just ask? You stike me as someone who might have
known James. It's up to you of course, whether you want
to address this question or not.
Pale Yellow Band phenomena?
At autopsy a pathologist never dictates 'gold wedding band'. A woman in a singles bar would take one glance at the ring and say 'wedding band' but at work might record it as 'pale yellow band on third finger' or something like that since she does know that it is gold and does not know that it is a wedding ring.
I think the same thing may have happened with the Fuqua Cell Phone Ping Data: it is described as being attributed to a tower with a 26 mile signal range but the added work of the engineer made it more precise by overlaying 'unobstructed line of sight areas' and also overlaying 'known roads' as well as 'known roads with a SAR history to them'. This made the "PING" info more useful but that tagline about 26 miles has a way of destroying the information's value in the minds of SAR personnel.
106/Maggie: Girl Power ?? 🙂
Sent you mail this a.m.
107,105,Fools Gold as fool.
No. Never met him. I'm sure most of the searchers never met him or, like me, never even heard of him prior to the search efforts. Not really relevant though.
Note: Upthread there was a reference to 'scenic routes'. This is actually good thinking. Often people who are tourists have sudden impulses to take a scenic route or see some 'touristy stuff'. Even local yokels might detour to show an out of town visitor some touristy site. It is a good thing to bear in mind from time to time that trying to figure out someone's route selection often means making less than optimal choices simply because that is what a lot of people routinely do. Tourists do not have the local knowledge that SAR people often expect everybody to have.
It would be really interesting to hear more from OSP
Lt. Brian Powers. I wish he would discuss some of the
issues here.
110- Fools Gold are you saying you're SAR – I don't
remember – what's relevant is relative to individual
Here's a confusing detail:
01 1429 DEC 2006 SGT Nam – Oregon Army National Guard Joint Emergency perations Center
– CPT Houston called. Said they are launching the helo now. They'll be flying between Solis and Agnes, OR and then to Gold Beach. They shouldn't be down there for long due to low light and bad weather conditions. GR at 9.
I can't find Solis on my map, my map program can't find it, and USPS has no Post Office there. Does anyone know where Solis, Oregon, is?
The National Guard helicopter left Salem at at 2:30 p.m., overflew "Solis" and Agness, and was on the ground at Gold Beach by 4:50 p.m., so this helicopter was in the air approximately for 160 minutes. It is around 175 miles from Salem to Agness (WITHOUT the Solis detour) and around 20 miles from Agness to Gold Beach. So the NG helicopter flew 195 miles in 160 minutes.
Although the NG pilot undoubtedly moved with all deliberate speed and spent as much time over the search area as possible (assuming that the Galice-Agness area was still the target area as it had been earlier that day), this doesn't leave a lot of time for a detailed search.
I continue to believe that if trained National Guard crew had not been prevented from conducting a military-style in the area specified by the Curry County Sheriff on a day with "clear and blue skies," GR at 4, for two additional hours, the outcome of this sad episode might have been different.
Very good points all the way through, Fools Gold.
It is good to think of scenic routes when searching, but I was curious about this info that Wilsonville Visitor Center worker "provided the Kim family with an Oregon map and gave them scenic routes not on map" (GR page 12) and then similarly says "provided the Kim family with several routes between Myrtle Creek and Grants Pass over the mountain to Gold Beach that were highlighted" (GR page 13). It is great that this was recreated and given to officials (assuming that the Kim's did go there – still puzzling, that discrepancy). I'm just really curious what routes they highlighted "over the mountain."
113- But who would have been directing them locally, and
would it have been any different?
(113) Perhaps "Solis" is a mistake for "Galice" (since Agness is spelled Agnes in the same sentence).
i JUST read the report. I had the same thoughts as Brenda. I am wondering why they would not search just because civilians were in the way. They should have searched anyways. That is a big issue in this report.
116 – Ellen, that makes so much sense! This report was taken "as is" without corrections, so that might be. Sounds the same and would make sense.
I have a lot of catching up to do…
119 – better get scootin' Glenn! 😉 I've been waiting to hear your take on this.
I was wondering where you were, glenn. I was just going
to write, 'Where's glenn – eating dinner?'
89- Joe I very much agree with your post! Now we have
this timeline, and there are just more burning questions. 🙂
Actually my wife had vehicle trouble today so we were tied up all day. But all is good now. I need to spend some time with the kids but I am going to go through all of this soon.
Does anyone know the "sources" for the GR? Was it from direct "testimoney", interviews with people are transcribed from other reports including the dailys during the search and/or JoCo's investigation. Maybe Brian Anderson would be so kind as to respond to that.
Did anyone see the article today from the Oregonian?
Glenn, it almost sounds like it's just a collection of notes from the reporting agencies:
"Listing reflects details from Oregon Emergency Management, Oregon Emergency
Response System, Oregon State Police, Oregon Military Department, and the Office of
the Governor.
No changes have been made to the state agency chronological listing of events as
submitted, to include spelling or grammar, just formatting changes and transfer to this
master document."
GR pgs 5 – 8
Delay of launching National Guard Helicopter. I've had to read these pages a couple of times. It is NOT the pilot that delayed the launch – it appears to be through chain of command. All they knew at National Guard Aviation is that 3 private helicopters were searching.
My guess is that standard operating procedure is during a search to verify who is going to be searching where. I don't want to jump to the conclusion that National Guard was refusing to participate – it is entirely possible that they were waiting for an official Air Coordinator Sadly, I suspect no one was used to having three civilian air craft and just did not have a process in place to immediately implement this coordination. I suspect safety of all concerned was the issue.
SOLIS – GR pg 9. This is just my wild guess; however I'm wondering if this is a misspelling of Galice?? Notice later how very different the spellings of Sara's name – it seems to get worse and worse. So, based upon that we know that spelling is not verified; and could Easily add to miscommunication. Definitely doesn't bolster a lot of confidence if that is the case, however communication with the pilot likely was much clearer than the possible misspelling of Galice. Again – this is just my guess after wading through the entire chronology twice.
(72) Frances I am sorry you had to read the comments from djdee on MT especially after reading your warm post to her even this AM. I am sure you are as disappointed as I am and others here.
(124) That is a very important point. Based on a cursory look at the posts here it sounds like we definitely need to get more first hand response.
Personally I think JoCo should lift the ban on the SAR people and others to come and speak freely here at this point. There is some damning information here and it is at best 2nd, 3rd hand. They deserve a right to speak for themselves. I really wish this would happen. It would save everybody a lot of hassle, time and energy – not to mention anger all over the place.
I am disappointed that the GR wasn't more a result of direct interviews, etc. Sounds like the Governor's office is going to need some type of thorough follow up – maybe that is why JoCo created an additional investigation.
Again we need to tread softly until we can get some direct answers.
Madeline 91 agree with you on the politicians.
Fools Gold– on your 99, which mission?
Fools Gold– Also on your 108, I agree. I have just thought the cell phone ping was the missing key to narrowing the whole search considerably and immediately, but about two pages ago, JoCoSAR replied to my question by saying the cell phone map identified 57 sites or so in pink across several counties, so the search box stayed very big. Well, I still don't know about that.
Seems to me you plot the intersections with roads or spurs and send out four choppers at first light Sunday morning. Each flies to one fourth of the 57 or more (if multiple) intersections in an assigned quadrant. But again, easy to say, hard to do.
BH– good comments too.
post (125) addition:
I do know that air searches often involve a grid system. Also search aircraft often make methodical but sharp turns – it is always critical that all aircraft stay within their assigned grid in these cases. Air control is key. I'm thinking that at the beginning they wondered if all three might be over bear camp road – they just didn't have the information and had to wait for Coordination. It is incredibly sad that such good intentions as getting as many eyes in the air as possible actually delayed getting the local SAR in the air. Of course that wasn't the intention, and at this point who knows if it would have made any diffence – of course it was during the critical time that the tires were burning so one does have to wonder.
(129) typically ALL searches follow a grid pattern or predefined search spectrum depending on "local" factors (geography, weather, etc) unless there is something that focuses the search.
Fool's Gold at 94 said: Turf battle?
as the Governors Report said, the National Guard could not fly while private aircraft was in the area. GR at 6. You did read my post before replying, didn't you?
Sorry. Blame the family is bad enough but blame the family's lawyer? Is that supposed to be one step better?
It was reported that Spencer Kim's lawyer was involved in the SAR effort before Mr. Kim flew in. As you might know, rich people hire very good attorneys. In the Governors Repoirt, the Curry County Sheriff acknowledges that he is aware of Mr. Spencer Kim's wealth and that he is aware of and opposes Mr. Kim's private (and unsuccessful) SAR effort.
Are you claiming that neither Mr. Kim nor his attorney influenced the search opewratio0n on or before Friday, December 1? If so, why?
Helicopters can coordinate their search patterns. What do you think happens when fire, police and three TV news stations all have helicopters in Los Angeles at the scene of some event?
I think that these things are really neat, but that none of these things were a factor on that sunny Friday and are completely beside the point.
Also, it seems that the National Guard helicopter was tasked for an area rather distant from the coastal area the family-hired helicopters were to search, so don't blame this on the family's lawyer: what did that National Guard helicopter pilot want: all civil aircraft west of the Missippi grounded for his benefit?
Please read page 9 of the Governor's Report and get back to me on this. BTW, you need to add two more s's and one more i.
If there was a discrepancy in the search areas better procedure would be to describe the search areas, give a brief statement of the reasons… and come to a decision as to the most likely area.
Yes, that would have been nice. In fact, that is exactly what the Curry County Sheriff did for the Oregon National Guard. Because, at least according to the Governors Report that you rather obviously have not read, the CuCoSheriff asked them to search the area between Galice and Agness. And, not to belabor an obvious point, that target area is exactly the area where the Kim Family was stranded on the afternoon that James Kim burned the first tire.
My logic tells me that a military-style search over this area might have either discovered the Kim Family or discovered evidence that might have led to their rescue. What does your logic tell you?
Again, please read the Governors Report. I am.
Personally I feel uncomfortable that oftentimes when it
comes up there seems to be such a big deal about Mr.Kim's
wealth. It almost sounds like people are jealous or
resentful of it. I don't know if this is true, but it sure
comes up a lot.
131- I don't understand why the National Guard was grounded
in terms of searching the Bear Camp and local roads, it
seem that it was such a different area than where the
Kim's wanted the Carson helicopters to search. Why couldn't
both efforts be made?
(132) A person in his position will utilize their resources under their control – it is natural for someone to do that.
If any of us had a large amount of wealth and had a family member go missing we would do everything we could to save them – maybe except for Pac.
Ross Perot established the benchmark decades ago – he rescued his own employees on foreign soil when US resource couldn't.
Not sure how the money plays out in people's opinions. Seems strange to me that NG Chopper Jocks wouldn't fly.
About this being just the timeline, it sounds like this is intended to be only one piece of the whole:
"This is a press release courtesy of the Governor's Office
Today the Oregon Office of Emergency Management delivered a report to Governor Kulongoski outlining the facts and timelines surrounding the efforts undertaken by state agencies to assist in the search for the Kim family last month in Southwest Oregon.
The Governor called for this report on December 22, 2006 and charged the Office of Emergency Management to lead the compilation of a chronology of steps taken by the primary state agencies participating in the search, which included the Office of Emergency Management, the Oregon National Guard and the Oregon State Police. The chronological report includes information from these three state agencies from November 30 through December 7, 2006 relating to their efforts assisting the local responders in the areas of public affairs, investigation, search and coordination with public and private entities.
"This report provides the first round of facts relating to the state's support of the local search effort for the Kim family last month, which is necessary in order to move forward with a broader assessment of search and rescue in Oregon," the Governor said.
The report delivered to the Governor today is not an account of official actions taken by various Sheriff's offices, local police departments, private agencies, or individual citizens during the Kim search. The Oregon State Sheriffs' Association is still in the process of compiling information from the numerous local agencies and private individuals involved in this search, as requested by officials in Josephine County. It must be understood that the timeline released today is only one component of the facts of the entire search and bigger picture. It is likely that the report that is forthcoming from the Sheriffs' Association will fill in many areas in this timeline.
"After we have all of the facts from both the state and local levels, I will convene a task force of federal, state, local and private sector partners to review this information and our approach to search and rescue efforts," the Governor continued. "I appreciate the extensive time and efforts undertaken during this search, and my goal for the task force is to identify ways to strengthen our coordination and communication in the future in order to adequately ensure the safety of Oregonians and our visitors."
The Governor will appoint his taskforce following the completion of the Sheriffs' report."
[GR] "2-02-06 – Oregon State Police
9:05 pm OSP Lt. Brian Powers spoke with Josephine County Search and Rescue Coordinator Sara Rubrecht and was informed that Bear Camp Road and all of the spur roads had been searched….Rubrecht stated that she had been told that Curry County had ended their search on 12/01/2006 and Josephine County planned to end their search also…"
>>> all of the spur roads had been searched
Lisa 133 – the GR pgs 5 indicate that the launch was delayed (not grounded) as the National Guard received information that their were 3 private helicopters involved in the search. This delay started at 11:25 Friday morning and apparently lasted until lauch authorization at 3:10. It wasn't until 12:26 that there was any disclosure that the three helicopters would be searching the three different areas. I can certainly understand the initial delay, though I'm not sure about waiting until after 3:00 for final authorization.
134- Yes, I think it's true, if anyone had those resources
and was in the same position – I think they would try to
do everything they could. I just don't think it should be
an issue – it just enabled him to hire helicopters to
help search for his son.
132- It is only relevant – IMO – if his affluence and connections impeded the search. People with financial clout have that capability, however, it is a double-edged sword, used judiciously it can HELP SAR enormously. It is too early at this point to say which, if either, occurred.
139- To me it sounds like feathers and potentially egos
were ruffled – and who knows how that may have affected
the search. I think good coordination from command with the National Guard should have been able to coordinate the different elements effectively and well. It seems to me, that the more resources there are – the better, and this could have been worked out more efficiently.
128 Cell phone maps.
It may be a matter of precision and confidence.
A signals engineer would start off with the 26 miles but it seems that the "overlays" add a measure of uncertainty and 'probable areas' and the SAR personnel may be unnecessarily and certainly unwisely clinging to the '26 miles' and mentally downgrading the value of the information because the overlays provide a more specific location but do so with an unknown 'confidence level' that is utterly unfamiliar to SAR personnel. Looking back it sounds not only reasonable but clearly critical and highly valuable information. I can just see a political cartoonist showing two people looking at the same cell map: one walks in circles muttering 26 miles to himself, the other says 'right here, I think'. Same information. Two divergent assessments of it.
[133] …helicopter dual private / public searches
Public sector officials would rather say no if able to justify their no-action rather than take a risk and saying yes. It's human nature and the nature of government.
141 – Yes, Joe, and the above same also said:
"The Governor will appoint his taskforce following the completion of the Sheriffs' report"
So I get the idea that perhaps eventually the task force will aim to pull ALL of the information together for an even bigger and more comprehensive report that blends all info and draws some real conclusions on what went right/wrong and needs to be done in the future. Now, whether this is something we will ever see is a whole other question.
136- I know Kip, it's very hard to understand.
turf battle
"…My logic tells me that a military-style search over this area might have either discovered the Kim Family or discovered evidence that might have led to their rescue. What does your logic tell you? …"
I agree with you but question just WHY that military style search did not take place? It appears to me to be an ANG pissing contest about 'we fly in airspace that we own and don't share it with privately chartered helicopters'. The mission seems to have been scheduled but not flown. SOMETHING happened. And you seem upset if I point the inquiry at the ANG.
137- Yes, thanks Angela for pointing that out.
142 Fools Gold– spot on, my friend. but as to 146, which mission was scrubbed? It is strange that Oregon NG assets sat for 72 hours. That part I don't understand at all.
Maggie, how long do you think before we have the OSA timeline of County activities is issued and then the whole TF report is complete– I am guessing one month for the first and another two months beyond that for the second. Don't know if due dates have been published.
The GR(or GP:)) gives you a timeline of the involvement of the State Agencies. I realize that it raises more questions and does not provide the answers that some people want.
The OSSA report should provide more details about the thought process that went into certain decisions and the information used to make those decisions.
Hopefully at some point the individuals involved in the search will be able to talk more freely.
I an no longer a member of the Josephine County Sheriff's Office and can talk about the search. I am choosing not to provide information at this time. The main reason is that I would like the investigators from OSSA to finish their investigation. I may provide more information when the report is published. Also, the tactics used by certain members of the media has cause problems for me and my family.
I will make a comment about Spencer Kim. He is a remarkable individual.
Brian Anderson
wow….still catching up and have not read the report yet.
Brenda, fools gold,lisa
brenda I do think you sould be careful making sweeping assesments about money, lawyers and rich people. You seem to be a very intelligent person but when you throw your opinion in between the lines and get somewhat argumentive with the other thoughtful people here it, well, it doesn't work.
All I can say is, on the last page you said "this is why map-makers make so much money"
what do you condsider a lot of money? because we dont. We do okay if were very good and technically savvy and have learned and mastered gis. But did you know that cartographers that start in the army corps of engineers start at something like 16,000 a year…..I dont care where you live, thats not a lot of money anywhere. so I have to wonder for myself if your making the same sweeping generalization about the lawyers and rich people, etc. of course, I will read the report. But I dont need to have read it to see where your inserting your opinion and accusiong others of doing just that.
fools gold, I am interested to read this part about the cell map as this is one area that has bothered me all along.
148 – Bamadad, hard to say when the Task Force will have the more "comprehensive" report, but I bet it will be awhile. I haven't seen any anticipated dates. That, I think, would be the report most interesting to see, but I wonder if it's one that we ever will see.
149 – Brian Anderson, thank you again for speaking up. I can understand your reasons for not wanting to comment right now. After the investigation is complete, it really would be interesting to hear your comments if you decide to discuss. I am sorry to hear that the media has caused problems for your family – given the reports that we've all read, I can only imagine it's been tough. It sounds like folks in LE learn to face criticism almost as a matter of course, but it's unfortunate for a family to kind of get sucked into things.
Yes, thanks for joining us. It's as if I have become numb to all the people related to this case popping up here. It's an honor.
I think most of us, most people, know there is hardly ever any one person or event that can be blamed in a crisis, much like other people have noted, airplanes usually go down after a series of mistakes and problems, hardly ever one simple error or malfunction.
As we have all seen, right down to the pine branch covering rt. 42 exit on the interstate, its like more factors than anyone could possibly imagine contributed to James's death.
It's simply my hope that everyone will learn something new here, and refrain from harshly blaming and simplifying any one person or agency.
If its any consolation, I'll bet most normal people have forgotten about this search and JoCo's inolvement (except for us). I'm sure most people here in illinois still dont even know where josephine county is, or that it was the site of this tragic event. There is a whole world out there that simply doesn't know or care who did what. Assuming you did everything in your power, well and right, that might not be much consolation, but at least you should know that there is more than likely a whole country (everything east of oregon) where you and your family could pass by unnoticed!
PS. On a lighter note, but kind of interesting. A very good friend of mine is a crime reporter in California. She still….has never heard of this case. Granted she admits to never reading the news, just reports it. But I think that might give you some guage, that even though this story is wildly popular….well I think still, most people who do follow the news, dont follow it for long or very in depth!
I have to go, but I am stopping by, and I guess one of
the questions I still have is why the heat seeking helicopters weren't ordered out on Sunday night after
the cell phone workers helped narrow the search to a much
smaller area.
I mean from what I remember reading, the cell phone people
pretty much narrowed it down to BLM 34-8-36 because of
elevation issues and they had cleared Bear Camp at that
156- This isn't addressed to anyone in particular – just putting it out there.
The Daily Courier has respected my privacy. They have not called me at home. I have an unlisted phone number.
However, the same cannot be said for other media sources.
I do know that two other members involved in the search have changed their home phone number. The GR does list phone numbers. This is wrong.
Brian Anderson
Ok only here for a brief moment.
I think the GR raises more questions than it could possibly answer. I don't think the timeline encompasses the entire picture at all and quite frankly without a clear picture of ALL the efforts going on (San Fran, Portland, Joco, Nat Guard, etc, etc, etc…) we will never be able to accurately look at what could be improved especially inter-agency (where the majority of change could benefit). There will be a natural resistance especially with "govt" agencies they are very turf protective.
I am going to continue to distill what I read both in GR and here…way too early to get any farther (significantly at least) from where we were yesterday.
Maybe the report we get in the next couple of days will add more to the scenario.
(149) Brian thanks for taking the time to answer my questions. I am hoping for the day when all of you can speak freely and we can get to the bottom of things. I empathize about the media – been on both sides of that fence. It can be horribly unfair what they can do. Keep your chin up – in the end truth will prevail and some of this will be set right, some won't but hey that is the American way!
Brian Anderson and Sara Rubrecht have my personal thanks for all the work they did on the Kim Search. Three people were found ALIVE! The intense media scrutiny has been unfair towards them. They sacrificed family time during the search because that is their job and I'm sure would do it again in a heartbeat. If I ever get lost and need assistance I know if they were looking for me that I stand a good chance of surviving.
(158) Brian that is disturbing about distributing phone numbers directly in the report. Typically it is on specific cover-pages for people that "need" to know.
The grief from the media can be pretty intense.
I have questions, but the most burning ones, I think the answers can only come from Brian Powers or a report that he gives the answers or at least more detail in. For me this GR only restated facts we knew or created more questions.
(158) Brian, Have you considered or others getting a PR firm to start swinging the bat for you. You can turn the tide and in fact this blog can be a big part of that. You may want to consider getting some assitance in this area.
If you have questions about this, please feel free to email me and I will be glad to connect up some people for you.
158 – Brian Anderson, I did notice that phone numbers were listed in the GR and was, frankly, surprised. While we all wanted as much complete information as possible, that's not what I had in mind. Regardless of positions in what becomes a high profile case, people are still people after all.
Yes, thank you Brian Anderson for being here and for
sharing what you can with us. If you can provide more
information after the OSSA Review, you know we would be
interested in hearing it.
(163) has a funny typo…I meant assistance. If anyone knows what assitance is…please let me know! LOL
(160) Redmex…thanks for the post. I think you are new…welcome. Please elaborate on your experiences and your reasons for such high praise. I for one would really appreciate knowing. Thanks.
I think assitance would be a combination of persistance and…a not so nice word.
I think we could all come up with applications of what it would refer to. We could use it to refer to the media, perhaps!? as in, I can't believe the assitance of that reporter for calling his home, having got the phone number from today's report.
(168) LOL could be the new happenstance!
168 – oh mapper, you are so right that Glenn may have just coined a word so useful – you could even make a noun, like someone who happens to be an assitant 🙂
Brian, Josephine County Sheriff's Office lost a great individual and leader. I really wish the best for you in the new chapter of your life. The Kim search happened during the last week on your tenure with JOCO SO and I know you would have preferred winding things down differetly. You stepped up to the plate, did your job, and should be proud. You did a good job. Most of the media are vultures and are only interested in selling stories. They do not care what their ripple effect is on folks and their families.
Hey Briaster, you know who much I've appreciated your advise and leadership over the years. Keep the faith and know that you did the right thing and are one hella of a good person.
Welcome to you, RedMex. We don't bite much.
Hi Glenn, I am new and thanks for the welcome. I have known Brian for almost 14 years. He is one of the most ethical people I have ever known. He takes his job seriously and always give 150%. I heard about this site yesterday and thought I'd take a look. I'm disheartned with the intense media scrutiny that both Brian and Sara have been under.
Hi Maggie and thanks for the welcome.
173 – RedMex, if it helps any, there are many of us here who have come to feel that we have not yet gotten the real story from what the media has reported thus far and are no longer as quick to point fingers at anyone. For most of us, I think, our minds have changed and become open (re-opened) in many different ways as new information became "known." It's always good to have the balance of other voices aside from what we read in the media. Glad you are here!
I have read the GR. It was published using raw data and lacked the information provided by personal interviews.
My interview with OSSA was two hours.
Brian Anderson
I am anxious to see or hear how this information was obtained from each person or agency….
Brian, I totally understand your frustration with the media, they can be relentless and just plain wrong in pursuit of a story.
I think you're wise to wait for the reports to speak, as you presumably gave input already and it hasn't been incorporated yet until published. I hope you get to set the record straight.
163 – This is series, and will require assitance to resolve. All your bases are belong to us.
(Sorry, Glenn, couldn't resist) 🙂
166/Lisa – I thought it was a seance where every sits down, but others had done me better…
I have known Sara for about 6 years and she is an excellent Emgergency Services, Search and Rescue Coordinator. She's been on many, many searches that have had a good outcome. As a matter of fact, the day after the Kim search she was in the same area looking for someone else. That did not make the media. She's gone through hell lately, with terrible people, sending her terrible e-mails. I for one sincerely appreciate everything she's done.
180/RRR – could you, would you, elaborate ?? Bad cup of Dutch Brothers ? The GR ? The weather in Oregon ?
Ellen at 116) said: (113) Perhaps "Solis" is a mistake for "Galice" (since Agness is spelled Agnes in the same sentence).
But of course! Ellen comes through again!
Let me revise my Oregon National Guard helicopter timeline: Time in the air is still 160 minutes. Salem to Galice is 170 miles, Galice to Agness is 35 miles, and Agness to Gold Beach is 20 miles, for a total distance of 225 miles, adding 32 miles to our prior total.
So how fast could the National Guard pilots have made the trip between Salem and Galice? According to Wikipedia, the UH-60 Blackhawk helicopter has two large propellors, two huge engines, a minimum crew of 2, and a maximum speed of 222 mph. However, it is unlikely that the NG pilots traveled down the I-5 corridor at maximum speed, but probably at a cruising speed more like 170 mph. At that speed, they could have made it to Galice in an hour, arriving around 3:30 p.m. Let's assume that they only concentrated on the target area and that they later traveled between Agness and Gold Beach at this assumed cruising speed, for a trip time of around 10 minutes and placing them over Agness around 4:40 p.m. This scenario would allow 70 minutes to cover the area between Galice and Agness, or about a linear mile of territory every two minutes. If we assume that they made two or more passes over the target area, then we must also assume a faster flyover time. This scenario assumes straight-line flight and does not allow for take-off and landing times or deviations or delays in flight, any of which would tend to shorten the time available over the target area.
On December 1, the Sun rose at 7:30 a.m. and set at 4:45 p.m. If the timeliine above is reasonable, the NG helicopter left Agness and landed shortly after Sunset. There is no mention of a subsequent search and the NG helicopter returned to Salem by 7:16 p.m., around 3 1/2 hours after their Sunset landing at Gold Beach.
Now, let's imagine a different scenario: The NG helicopter departed Salem around 12:30 p.m. as scheduled and arrived over Galice by 2:00 p.m. (for a speed of 110 miles per hour). If the NG helicopter left Agness at 4:40 p.m., the crew could spend 160 minutes or more over the target area. A single sweep would allow a linear ground speed of 1,000 feet per minute. Of course, the NG crew would spend their time over the target area more efficiently and would travel faster but would cover a lot more terrain. In addition, the search team would have, at a minimum, two trained and experienced pilots to scan the terrain below (I'll bet that the Carson helcopters only had a single pilot with no training) and possibly could have arranged to pick up "people that can ride in helicopter that know the roads." GR at 3. How much would RRR's knowledge of this territory helped in a helicopter that afternoon?
For several hours before Sunrise and for several hours after Sunset, the Sunlight slants through the trees at a steep angle, making it hard to see anything on a narrow, tree-lined road unless the helicopter is directly overhead. Consequently, a slow midday search is far preferable to a speedy late-afternoon search and may have been critical to the conclusion in this case.
And what was the Kim Family doing on the afternoon of December 1? "Dec. 1: They burn all four remaining tires to signal for help and for heat. The fire burns out in the afternoon.? They hear a helicopter, but can't locate it." Timeline from San Jose Mercury News.
Does it seem reasonable that a National Guard helicopter cruising the area between Galice and Agness for 2 1/2 hours might see this fire? Is it reasdonable that the Kims would have heard this huge twin-bladed helicopter moving slowly overhead and found some way to attract attention? It appears that by the time that the NG helicopter appeared over Bear Camp Road, the Kims had already burned all four of their tires and had no ammunition left. A couple of hours might have made all the difference.
We should note that the Kim Family was not hiding at the invisible edge of a tree-lined road. Instead, they were parked at a relatively wide intersection that was relatively visible at an angle. Look at this satellite picture of the intersection:
Surely someone would have seen a four-tire fire on a clear day, if only they had been in the area.
So we can properly ask why the trained and experienced pilots of the Oregon National Guard pilots did not leave Salem around Noon as scheduled, why they did not recruit people that can ride in helicopter that know the roads," GR at 3, and why they didn't spend several two or three hours flying back and forth between Agness and Galice during the early afternoon instead of making one or two quick passes late in the day.
Of course, we now know the answer: The National Guard helicopter was grounded because private aviation was reportedly operating in the target area. Although Spencer Kim sent that helicopter off on another errand, the National Guard didn't know this and remained at the ready, burning fuel and daylight and waiting for an order to proceed.
Like the Coast Guard, any military operation naturally excludes private aircraft from the surrounding airspace. And in uncontrolled airspace, this is exactly as it should be. Any way that you put it, the National Guard helicopter wasn't in the search area because the Carson helicopters were supposedly operating in that airspace. Under those conditions, the National Guard could not conduct its operations in a safe manner.
So who put the Carson Helicopters in the air? It wasn't the CuCo Sheriff – he was opposed to it. It wasn't JoCo – on December 1 they had yet to appear as actors in the Governor's Report. It wasn't even PacNWer. So whose actions and decisions grounded the Oregon National Guard? You tell me.
177/CitizenCane. I'd like to know also. Wonder if that will be in the OSSA report.
[160].. "Three people were found ALIVE!" …yeah, thanks mainly to 2 private citizens acting on their own volition, John Rachor and Eric Fuqua.
175/Maggie. I'm glad to hear that your minds were changed when you got more information.
186/Kip. You should not believe everything you read in the Oregonian. Besides private citizens many volunteers and Sheriff's Office personnel worked very hard to find the Kim's. The bottom line is that someone found them and it does not matter who it was.
I can't speak though the duct tape…I only have a small hole for the Dutch Bro's straw…..My hands are bound behind me….I am typing with my nose!
186 – We don't have nearly the whole story yet! Why they certainly deserve credit and praise, you're implying negative things about the official effort that may be premature…if there is anything we've seen here, it is how subsequent revelations can drastically change perceptions.
189/RRR – No, say it ain't so !! The dreaded darkened room with the single white glaring lightbulb, the solitary wooden chair, and ominous men in dark suits lurking in the shadows intensely asking questions. 🙂
187 – RedMex, in fairness, I have to say that for many of us it's not necessarily a "change" of mind, but it is definitely a more open mind, realizing that we still really don't know. Once *the* Oregonian article came out and we heard no response to the contrary, it seemed it must be true. But then, folks like JoCoSAR and RRR started posting on here with some different explanations for things and a different point of view, and it became something to seriously consider. At this point, I think many of us are still waiting for the real story to finally make its way out, whatever it actually is. Does that make sense?
189/RRR – Watch out for those dreaded men in dark suits lurking in the shadows. Do you need to be rescued?
I think ultimately it will be more important to be objective
than subjective…
192/Maggie. Makes absolute sense and I totally agree. I appreciate the open mindedness. JoCoSAR and RRR would know how things went down.
(194)I am more concerned about the ones lurking across the street in a crown victoria……
Who's Gomer?
Gomer Pile???
196 – And when they were able to participate, JoCoSAR and RRR both shed a LOT of new light and also happen to be very likable as well. I bet they are chomping at the bit as much as we are for them to be able to speak!
If you can say, RedMex, were you involved in the search? I know some folks can't say much or don't want to say much, so it's understandable if you don't say. Just curious.
RedMex reminds me of someone…
(197) You only have to worry if it is a black tahoe.
200/Maggie – I was in Portland during the search but dealt with the aftermath.
197/ Let's see, who do we know who drives Crown Victorias ?? 😛
203- RedMex, how did you deal with the aftermath?
That's a cute smiley Paul!
205/Lisa – Press, e-mails, telephone calls, employees, etc.
207 – Madeleine, that was all really nicely put.
208- RedMex, will you be able to reveal your identity to
us as to who you, RedMex, are eventually?
Brian, your comment about Spencer Kim being remarkable made me realize something about this case. The paradox is that a seemingly ordinary family turned out to behave in an extraordinary fashion when faced with this crisis.
Spencer Kim immediately used the means at his disposal to get a search going. Kati's family provided strong support throughout, and is helping to put the pieces back together. Kati kept her baby and small child nourished and comforted for a miserable period of time under awful conditions. James, of course, not only went without food to provide for the family, kept the children entertained and after making his unbelievable trek, paid the ultimate price.
These people played the hand they were dealt with grace and courage and dignity. I'm sure that those who searched for them did the same, and any mistakes made should not detract from their overall efforts. Anytime there are multiple agencies involved in an operation, communication is taxed and there will likely be lessons learned for the next time. If the overall system and motorist awareness can be improved from this after action analysis, that would be the best tribute to everyone involved.
208/Maggie – When the report comes out, I'd be happy to. Madeline, that was nicely put.
It would seem to me Spencer Kim may have taken action only after realizing that the leadership / coordination of the SAR effort was in disarray and that time was very fast running out for his son.
212 – RedMex, that wasn't me – it was Lisa 🙂
213/Kip – Wow! I urge you to keep an open mind until the OSSA report comes out. Again, do not believe everything you read in the Oregonian. From what I understand, Spencer Kim is a pretty remarkable individual that would move heaven and earth for his family. I would do the same thing if ever in that situation and had the means to do so. I don't think it's fair to say the leadership was in disarray.
215- Will the leadership be able to refute and respond fact for fact what it is now implying the Oregonian got wrong?
213/ Kip: Your comment are starting to get more than a little Pac-thetic. That is a total speculation on your part.
216/Lisa – Do you work for the Oregonian?
don't make it personal anyone
218- Ha! No.
Kip (213) – The BOLO went out to the agencies late in the day on 11/30. By the next morning, several agencies were coordinating efforts at the same time Spencer Kim was putting together his resources, the hired helos. I don't think he "realized" overnight that "leadership/coordination was in disarray", that seems unfair.
To any family member awaiting news of a missing person, the nuts and bolts of putting together an operation of this type are probably most frustrating to endure. But Mr. Kim appears to be very decisive and had the means and opportunity to do what he did, and he went for it.
I've just heard all this about how the Oregonian got it
wrong, and I haven't heard any proof of that.
And I wonder if I ever will.
Help, Joe – 207 didn't appear to go through to the board, so retyped it and posted (#211) from memory, but with some changes, I see. Can you delete the first one, #207, lest anyone think I'm really into hearing myself pontificate?? Thanks!!
222 – Or any proof that the Oregonian was 100% correct, either.
Hopefully once the investigation is out there will be some answers to balance. That's my hope. It doesn't sound like everyone who has wanted to say something to refute what the Oregonian has reported has been at liberty to fully do so – yet.
224 – Madeleine, 🙂 . I noticed that and was going to say that you said the same thing a bit differently but beautifully – twice!
225- Well if no one is able to dispute them, they are
225 – Bravo, well said….hard to defend yourself with a Crown
Victoria parked out front. 😛
I am wondering what the criteria for the GR report was for reports from different agencies…….Who got the say so as to what gets put in and what gets left out from all the info gathered from the different agencies….
228 – Thank goodness, she got the duct tape off. Hard to breath, talk or drink Dutch Bros that way.
227 – Thank you, Paul.
RRR (228) pretty darned good nose-typing!
Interesting question. I assumed that all that was included was the chronology from the state agencies. If the Governor's office has received other reports then will they be made public? Or will they all be saved for the task force? Or is the Governor's office just waiting out of courtesy for the OSSA report?
224 – Thanks, Maggie, for the kind words. Some nights you just can't get me to be quiet around here… (okay, lots of nights).
It doesn't sound to me like the facts the Oregonian had
are wrong. It sounds like people are going to try to explain
that the reasons behind the facts make them more 'understandable' or 'justifiable', etc. It's going to
be about 'wiggle room'. That's just what I see coming at
this point, objectively speaking.
(231) Yes I thought it was a good question to stew over…..
233 – I have heard enough from JoCo, Brian & RRR to have serious doubts about the Boregonian account. Kati's dad also seems to have an open mind, which I think is a sign that they may have more than a few things wrong. Regardless, I am keeping an open mind BOTH ways and I think anything at this point is sheer speculation.
RedMex – Welcome and thank you for the comments.
Brian Anderson – It is so unfair what the spotlight of the media brings. I am so sorry for you and your family. I appreciate your desire to allow the OSSA investigators to complete their process and I hope you will join us once that phase of the review is complete.
Paul (235) Well put 🙂
RRR, it appeared to me that each of the agencies listed was asked for a timeline of their actions/communications, period. Then somebody merged them into the one document, allegedly "unchanged", I believe the report stated. If this was to be the extent of this document, with more details coming in later reports, I would have sent a sample format around to the agencies so everyone was on the same page. Perhaps they did that, since there weren't too differences in layout. I did note that one agency kept goofing up Sara's last name, which seemed preventable.
Please Note: From here on out, am blaming all typos on Fred, the largest and friendliest of my cats, who shows extreme and intense interest whenever I'm typing. He also sends faxes by himself by standing on the redial button, and retrieves incoming faxes with his paw from inside the printer. Soon he'll be posting here, I fear. If suddenly Madeleine begins demanding better catfood, do not be fooled.
[215] – RedMex… well, that's how it appears to me, the SAR leadership and coordination was one big bungle. James needn't have died. The information in the GR report only serves to confirm my view. Take for example: 2-02-06 – Oregon State Police report — It said the Bear Camp road and it's spurs "had been searched". (presumably 34-8-36 is a spur) How am I supposed to reconcile that road reported officially as having been searched.. when it was not?!
Please, please… my opinions are based on more than just what I've read in the Oregonian.
I'm sure Spencer Kim is a remarkable man. I never thought nor meant to say anything to suggest he wasn't. On the contrary I admire him very much for taking on the search initiative.
I look forward to when it's all out, everywhere. That
will be interesting. I'm sorry I'm being too serious.
I will go away now.
I mean no blame. I just have to be real.
Goodnight, everyone! 🙂
RRR – Ok, slowly pondering here (and waayy too many hours studying tonight so brain not fully connecting dots) Anyway – the GR – I've been wondering why if the chronology was requested on December 22nd and there was no editing, no input from other agencies, nothing other than slicing and dicing existing data reports – then why did it take until Jan 5th to release this?
242- hhhmmm Good question……
238 😆 Madenline, maybe Fred is just jealous . . .
235- Paul, you know if it was that serious the Oregonian
would have retracted…
I also have a Fred
I have a freddette…..
I have 3 freds (well, one is an ette, too)
238// Meow Mix ???
242 – Angela, good point, I'm guessing that there was a shortage of slicers and dicers due to holidays. There were maybe 7 work days there, and for gov't folk to sit down, agree to a final format and merge the individual chronos, that doesn't surprise me. And they probably threw in a committee that had to approve it, even though basically it was a compilation. Chalk up another couple of meetings and days.
My Fred showed up one night while we were in the hot tub and he's never left.
And we really haven't heard anything but personalities,
which are likeable, but that ain't facts…
[217] – "213/ Kip: Your comment are starting to get more than a little Pac-thetic. That is a total speculation on your part"
Paul, almost always I like what you have to say and how you say it, but!!
Let me just say this, so far anything I've speculated here has later proven out.
245 / I disagree – I think the Oregonian is probably waiting like all the rest of us for the official report to come out. Newspapers are notoriously reluctant to print retractions, even when they clearly get something wrong.
253 / We'll know a whole lot more in a week or so, one way or the other.
254- We'll see, won't we…
Paul, Lisa, Maggie, Mad (can I call you mad!?:) everyone else.
I try to look at it this way. Were mistakes made? Absolutely. Was the Oregonian wrong? Probably yes and probably no.
The distinction I try to make, is that more than likley the SAR people AND the leadership did their jobs the way they were trained to do them
Things have changed drastically in the last few years with technology and what is avaialble (for instance pings and the need to create line of sight maps based on that data).
It is my opinion there may be problems with the protocols, and the investigation will reveal those gaps. I do not believe (though its possible) that the investigation will reveal gross negligence on SAR's part or of any one person or agency.
We can certainly scrutinize the protocols, which may be outdated. We can also ask questions about funding and such and how that effects the needs of the particular agency.
That is my opinion, anyway, having worked in government you have certain rules to follow (not unlike the hotel workers who refused the credit card numbers). It is my opinion many reporters do not understand the stories they work on, many of them not having the education to back up the claims, as many journalists simply major in journalism or english…not politics or world geography, or local government. I noticed this was rampant in the hurricaine katrina aftermath and the blame on fema.
reporters are quick to blame, as they may see something as "common sense" wheras often protocols prevent government workers from using their common sense.
I know I have said much of this before (and not perfectly but I think you get my point), dont mean to be a broken record. But I think it is an important disticnction to make….we can take issue with the way things are done, and what is written, the system. But I do believe (or hope and am pretty sure its quite likely) the people were doing their jobs.
I'm interested to hear if any of the JoCo people would agree with me….this is my perception.
244, 246, 247, 248, 249, 251: LOL, I knew you were kindred souls! Fred says "Hey!"
I reading for the last hour or so. This is a good vehicle to get opinions and feelings out. Don't know Sara or Brian but I sure do think they are getting the short end of the stick with the media and Kip. Lisa, you seem like a fact kinda person. You'd make a great cop. By chance do you own a crown victoria? lol.
I have two Freds, 16 and 15… 🙂
Really going!
259- No, I just have to be honest
257 – Mapper, very well put. Talking about the gov't workers and others not being able to step outside the box reminds me of the stories where the water delivery guy, as an example, stops and helps somebody in trouble and is later in big trouble for not following his exact route by helping the person in distress. Or the pizza delivery guy who saves a life at an accident and is then canned because some fool didn't get his pizza in 30′. Shortsighted, those companies. There are some parts of the envelope you can push, even at a gov't agency, but others are difficult to go around.
[239] – "I'm sure Spencer Kim is a remarkable man. I never thought nor meant to say anything to suggest he wasn't. On the contrary I admire him very much for taking on the search initiative."
That's the spirit that built our country. A private citizen acting independently to help out at his expense.
Wasn't it one of his rented 'copters that rescued the girls? With private citizen John Rachor standing by after radioing their location?
Mapper (257) Certainly some good points.
I ran across some information that may or may not become an issue for future SAR efforts in Josephine County. I apologize I don't have the details or proper names in front of me. The gist is that the Forest Service for years has paid a few in lieu of taxes to states and counties that have Forest Service (USFS) land. The theory being that because of the land taken by USFS property taxes are not generated for this area. Yet some public services are still required on the federal land (like SAR). Of course the Federal Government does not and will not pay property taxes, thus the payment in lieu. In some areas this payment in lieu of taxes has been a substantial amount. If I understand correctly as of 2006 this payment will has been cut. This means that sparsely populated counties with large amounts of federal land could sustain a significant revenue blow.
I have no idea the extent to which Josephine County receives such funds or if the State will be picking up the difference. I just saw a quick blurb, knew the background of these payments and began to wonder.
262 – I knew you would have Freds!
257 – Mapper, I'm very inclined to agree with you. Like most, I'm holding out for more information once we have "facts," but my mind is very open, and I know that not everything I read is necessarily true or necessarily false – not matter what channel it's on or what newspaper it's in or even what blog it's on 😉
Still, I pick up on sincerity fairly well (no, it's not 100% and can't be proved, but it's served me extremely well so far), and I have some thoughts along with yours as to what kinds of things we might find out. I could be wrong. Just my opinion.
(264) Are you talking about O&C monies???
264 OOPS typo – darned FRED!! "few in lieu of taxes" should be "fee in lieu of taxes". Though since they've apparently cut off the funds maybe few was correct after all 🙂
264. very interesting. I knew the boundaries and lines of responsibility between agencies up there were confusing (and probably especially to some reporters) but that is something to really think about.
Now…that I think of it and this is not along the same line of thought, I think joco said they used a USDA map…..of the National forest (even more confusing but maybe that helps narrow down, at least for me another agency that is doing mapping in the area, more specific than odot).
CitizenKane (264) – I've seen it called different things within different States. O&C typically means operating and Capital to me. This was actually a Payment In Lieu of Taxes that was paid directly from the Federal Government, I believe deposited in the State Government funds then divided out to the various counties. I can do some research next week for the federal program name.
Maggie…yes, an open mind is always good! (understatement of the year? well its only janurary). I certainly am also open to finding out that there were some bad seeds involved, and the protocol is not the perfect sheild. I hesitate to say it in front of Brian….but Sheriff Daneils quotes were certainly damning…though I do believe its quite possible they were taken out of context.
Mapper (269) – Didn't the USFS GIS department provide SAR with specific maps? I know during fires etc. the USFS prints off detailed maps of the specific area involved- I would assume something similar happens for SAR.
[259] – Mattman, for the record, I have the highest respect for JoCoSAR. She's very intelligent & expresses herself very well. I love her spirit. Whatever the outcome, I won't be changing my mind about that. I wish her well now and always. I mean it.
272- Something like that "could" have happened……. 🙂
272. from what I understand (not sure, joco and others would know) my understanding is usfs provided them with paper maps.
it is also my understanding that the joco gis department probably has some digital data or they aquiring some from the usfs or whatever agency maintains the digital data for the logging roads in that area.
your getting at the heart of what I am wondering about too.
Mapper – (275) – 🙂 it's a good thing because otherwise they might have to put the volunteers to work drawing the maps. And after 'watching' RRR pull her hair out the other night trying to draw a line on a map that might just be too funny, though not productive 😆
Just cause I didn't know the program……..
277. hahah. and well, unfortunatley it only gets harder from there! they really need to keep their gis people or there mapping abilities, and map analysis abilities, and IMS (allowing for future geocoding and emergency assistance and real time updates) will die, along with the entire gis program and all the work they have already put into it.
I hope they do get to keep their skilled workers or they are set up for disaster or worse trouble with high priced consultants.
271 – Mapper, yes, I agree. Even the Daniels quotes – I think the words were pretty disgusting to hear, BUT… context is everything, and all I really saw was the quote with no real certainty about context – so I can't comfortably make that judgement call quite yet. Madeleine really nailed it somewhere up there around comment 61 or so about context.
Glad you are back around here some more tonight!
280. yes, I'm not around as much as I was during the holidays but I am glad to report I didn't set of any fire alarms in public tonight. And you all might be subjected to me pretty late tonight too as I fell asleep mid-day and my schedule is all messed up! I hate to say this place is often more interesting than my own social circle!:)
Oooohhhh you have your own social circle…..I am jealous!!!
I'm turning into a zombie and must go to sleep – Thanks all for the pondering and thought provoking discussions.
Just one last question before I head to sleep – How far can we open our minds before our brains fall out??
Have you ever seen the "reach" toothbrush commercial>?> Flip top head…..I like that idea!!
🙂 Oh yes, if we had flip top heads then we could have eyes in the back of our heads too – of course everything would be backwards. . .
281/282 – Hahahaha, you mean there is a life outside of this blog?? I haven't seen it in weeks. I have zero social life. Thank God my man is the way he is. I'm amped on coffee (made by said man), and I'll be here for hours.
283 – Good night Angela! That was funny.
Well I am in a locked room with the TV on and my lap top on wirless…..hhhmmmmm
maggie your man sounds admirable.
and I doubt all of you charming people lack a social circle. you are so humble.
Just me and my Fredette! Oh yeah did I mention I am manager of a Resort and it is our off season……I AM BORD!!!!!! NO LIFE!!!!
288 – I can't complain. We both tend to live on our computers, back to back, saying "hi" once in awhile 🙂
289/RRR The Rogue is running 10000 cfs, that would cure your boredom…or, better yet, the Illinois at 3700…that would really take care of it. P)
OH MY GOSH!!! Don't tempt me I was checking out my favorite surfin spot….JoCo would KILL me…..It would kinda like be a suicide mission if I went and played in the river right now…
292/I've never been on it that high, I would assume most everything except Blossom and Mule Creek would just wash out.
So are we going to make any bets on the time line for OSSA report……I have heard a week….Do I hear two????
10 days, I'll wager a Dutch Bros coffee card. 😉
well shoot now i will have to take you up on that first i must look at a calendar paul i will give you a date tomorrow and the bet will be on!
I think everyone has fallen asleep…another interesting day on J.D. – never a dull moment that's for sure. Last one out please turn off the lights please ?
Are we all leaving for the night?
Well I started out sitting up in bed talking on my lap top I have now fallin down to a prone position but I am still here
I'm going to let you nice ladies have a slumber party. I am all tuckered out. It's girls night out on Joe D from here on out, unless Glenn is still lurking…or someone else.
Here is something to leave you with…nothing new really, but hot off the press:
I'm still up maggie…just can't think of anything i felt like adding tonight! I read most of the report but didn't quite get through the whole thing.
As tara and others have said (maybe you too) it seems to bring up more questions for me than answers.
Couldn't the national guard and the private pilots…couldn't that have been arranged better? I mean, it seems like the national guard was being ….how shall I say…..well fools gold referred to it as a "pissing contest" I am inclined to believe that is what it sounded like from what I read. This is a coordination issue in my opinion more than a …only one organization can be in the sky at one time…what gives? I live near O'hare airport…enough said.
and the cell map. I am not in the state of mind tonight to dissect the time and date stamp on the report. But, I have my theories about how that really could have been improved, but am waiting until people can speak their peace about it I guess.
I kinda stopped reading, near the part they found kati.
Anyone know what time the Oregonian posts the new news on its web site……Can ya tell I am biting at the chop here!!
Yes, Mapper, more questions than answers. I did scan through it and promised myself I'd read it through again tonight, but it almost sounds like my first read may have been good enough based on the discussions.
I know so little about having all different helis flying around and not running into each other – but I lived close enough to O'Hare, too, to think that there's some kind of solution 😉
So much of the rest of it I'm just in the same boat as most of us, waiting to hear.
Goodnight to my newly found minions, and always remember that Dogs have Owners, Cats have Staff.
Well my email has crashed I can't send anymore it must be a sign…Going to call it a night…I am sure I will return bright and early to sit on the side lines and NOT talk hehehehe like that worked today….Have a good night!!!!
Paul just left a link above of a snipet, but I think any articles usually go up shortly after midnight. Do you think we'll see one tonight?
Good night, RRR. Hope you can visit tomorrow 🙂
Well heck it is worth waiting just a few minutes then if midnight is the timeline! HA timeline I find humor in that ….GOD I am tired
Night Madeleine – I shot you an email.
Good Night ALL!!!! (even thos cyber monkies who are steaking us out and tattling to the cops!!!)
thanks paul, just looked at the article…also hits on some of what I am questioning! thanks.
In defense of people trying to read the line of sight map, I did a project on this kind of mapping just this past summer. I know most people have never even thought of or heard of such a thing.
This is the kind of thing I would like to change and be included in protocols, as I have said before, gis people can do line of sight maps. okay getting ahead of myself. I am going on a limb and making assumptions but what I wanted to read, is that eric f. was put in touch with joco gis people. I have not seen any evidence of this, only that the process happened very slowly and eric had to deal with people who were unaccustomed to this type of procedure and they made him wait…and wait. gis people should have been involved as soon as eric said something about line of sight mapping. the gis people would have been the perfect bridge of communication between eric and the higher ups at joco (or whoever he was dealing with).
again, these are all assumptions of what did or did not happen. and I am saying, truly I understand this is an obscure resource (line of sight maps) that most people know nothing about, and is probably not often used in searches.
now…people are talking about it, that is a good thing.
I do not know if eric was an engineer or had gis capabilities (I dont want to go into exactly what I mean by this). I learned a bit about line of sight mapping this summer when doing a project on locating scenic viewpoints in a certain national park I wont mention. If eric is more an engineer or cell phone technolgy kind of guy he would have benefitted from having gis people help him create the map, if he was relying on older methods of line of sight mapping (I keep hearing the term triangulation, and that is why I say this). They may have a certain way of doing this mapping at edge, I am interested of learning about it.
I care not to speculate any longer. will wait and see. Thanks to Eric though, if you are out there listening. This is just the type of assistance I have wondered about, and how gis could be useful, and used in ways it is not currently being used.
Thanks to Eric.
Good evening all. Wow- took me forever to catch up on the posts.
It was an interesting presentation, that the GR was basically a timeline from the various state agencies, but then again, that's pretty much exactly what they said it was going to be I think.
I'm going to again urge patience, and don't try to gleen too much from raw data. I was directly involved (albeit not with the SAR mission) and parts of it had me wondering. Having been interviewed for the OSSA rpt., as well, I think you will find more of what you're hoping for in the way of questions answered in that report, as well as the supplemental reports directly submitted by those involved.
oK MIDNIGHT was the number there is more posted about the cell call
315 – Hi there Det Mike! Yes, we are all really hoping that the OSSA report will be more of an answer instead of more of another question.
good to hear from you again! When it slows down I start letting my mind wander to the dark side of speculation.
I got your e-mail hours ago and responded, only my response was sitting in the outbox, all by itself. Just found it when I saw your post. Must have been the fault of you-know-who, The Orange One. I sent it just now!
316 – Yes, the Oregonian's new article is up (have not read it yet)
319 – Oh no, mine's Orange, too!
Goodnight madeleine and fred
312 – Mapper, I'm so glad that we have someone here that understands all that GIS stuff and has ideas about how things could work together for best efficiency. Time is so key, I think.
G'night, Mapper. I went over and read the article in the Sat. Oregonian, but it appears to be the same as the Friday story. I give up…will have a fresh look in the a.m.
Have not been able to get back today until now and mind is not functioning very well at present. Have just skimmed through, hopefully can get clear headed tomorrow.
So this may have been addressed already – roads were cleared by copters – with such a canopy, wouldn't be impossible to consider any area completely cleared from the air?
The personnal phone numbers should "NOT" have been on the release to the media and general public. Although important to get reports done, care should be taken.
323 It does appear to be the same but if you look at the bottom there are 3 pages…..
Hello, my name is Phil and while I do not have the celebrity status of some of the other posts, I did play a middle management role in the command post during the Kim search. Even though I am only a volunteer, I am non-the-less bound by Sheriff's Office policy not to provide details of the search. The safest way to adhere to this policy is to simply not say anything, but are just a couple of things I cannot resist commenting on. I will however attempt to be careful not to cross the line.
My first comment concerns entry 47 (did the search managers care). My position afforded me the privilege of working directly under Brian Anderson, Brian Powers, Jason Stanton, and Sara Rubrecht. I don't think I'm divulging any state secrets when I tell you that I was VERY impressed with their personal commitments to the search effort, you could see it in their eyes. They insisted that all of us work as if it was our family lost out there. Then there is the fact that they stayed late into the night before leaving the operation in the hands of the night shift, and were there before everyone else in the morning. So yes, Anderson's tears were real, and they were far from the only tears in the command post that day. Bottom line is that I would pick them to manage a search for my children anytime.
Thanks. I have been at it for about 8 years if I count part of my schooling. There are many parts of GIS I dont completley understand. It really takes a team of us with different specialties to cover everything. I am someone that has a pretty broad understanding of GIS and several specialities (due to my proficiency in taking internships instead of real jobs for a good number of those 8 years:)! and I like to learn things completley instead of halfway…but it is still so difficult.
But, this is also how I have a good idea of what challenges other government agencies will have utilizing gis and their gis employees, especially if they have a very small department and not a lot of funds. I've been in that position several times….being the only one (or even one of a team of 2) map person(s) in an agency is a tough role.
And our experience is farily universal, in that role.
At times I may sound critical of other cartographers (ODOT) or how the gis was incorporated in the search or utilized, or if they were involved in the communication process with eric. The truth is I am sympathetic because I know that quite often they have many challenges to overcome to begin with, at the upper level of management.
okay, though, that odot map needs to change 🙂
326 – Phil, welcome very much here. I'll be glad when all of you can speak as much as you care to speak 🙂 Some may disagree with me, but I've always been convinced that lack of care was never an issue here, and to me, the sincerity came through very clearly. Thank you very much for stopping by and saying what I've had a "hunch" about and most of all for your tireless efforts. My sincere admiration and respect for all of your hard work.
I am nervous about posting this…but want to say "Thank you" to each of you. Especially to Joe for having such a
fine blog, which has attracted so many good people.
I'm hoping that Brian Anderson will see my comments…or that someone will let him know that I appreciate him very much.
I'm probably much too emotional…hoping that thhis isn't too inappropriate…or wasting space.
This story has touched me deeply….for many reasons. I have
friends who have a cabin at Powers and have told me many stories of their adventures near the Rogue. One of my physicians is of Korean descent…a saint, who went through a difficult time a year ago, himself, and revealed his deep devotion to his family. I have a small craft booth at the Oregon coast…nothing like Kati's two boutiques…but from everything I've read she is doing what I would dearly love to do, if I had the health and energy to do so.
Other bits and pieces of experience that made James Kim's plight tug at my heart.
FOr whatever reason, this year I have struggled with anniversary dates…moreso than usual. December 6th would have been my brother's 58th birthday. He died nineteen years ago. As I watched the news coverage unfold, I desperately prayed James would be found alive. Even as details were revealed that left me thinking no one could survive what he had endured, I still needed to believe that
somehow he had made it.
When Brian Anderson said that James' body had been located,
I was devastated. Brian…my heart went out to you. It meant so much to me that you responded as you did…though I
ached for what it was doing to you. Thank you for caring so much. Thank you for the comments you have made here.
I'm not sure if it was the 6th, or the 7th, that I began reading this blog…but have been following it closely since
then. It has been a tremendous help for me. I thank all of you for being such caring people.
What an incredible spirit James was…and continues to be…
to have inspired such an outpouring of love and devotion.
My warmest wishes,
327 – I bow to you for all things that are Map/GIS, of which I don't know a heck of a lot, but I do know that something is not right about that ODOT map!
Well I have been gone for a little over 2 week's and as I have been trying to catch up UGH!!! lots of new info!
Just a little funny, we went to Canada, coming one day (stayed at my sis's on the border hopped back and forth) the guy went thru the back of our car lifting up the spare tire cover and found the stash I have been trying to accumulate,
3 lighters
3 space blankets
big bag of peanut butter cups
Food bars
plastic bags
He commented "well this is an interesting stash….. " I replied "just trying to be a responsible traveler!" He said "good for you!"
I must also admitt with all the discussion here I still was not as prepared as I should have been…. no shoes but clogs, no warm coat, no hat, I did remember to throw in a pair of socks….
I have in the last couple of weeks told myself to not let gas get below 1/2 ect but found myself at midnight pushing thru on fumes because we just wanted to get there.
We went out to dinner one night and my daughter wanted to walk back to her aunts with her cousins, so I went with her, light sweater, light coat, clogs no socks, no gloves, no hat, jeans…. 28 degrees and the wind blowing, I was sooooo cold, In 15 minutes I can't even imagine being like that for 9 days!
Its amazing even with the best of intensions how your old behavours slip back in.
Thanks Nancy and Phil
I think I speak for everyone when I say we hope you keep posting if you want to, and welcome!
Nancy, nice first post! Sounds like you've been reading along with us for quite awhile, and I'm glad that you spoke up. I think for many of us there have been different kinds of similarities where we could relate that sort of made this story pull at our hearts. Many of us joined you in wishing almost against reason that James could be found alive – especially after Kati and the girls made it. It was almost impossible to not be hopeful of another miracle.
Don't be nervous around us – you've seen how we are 😉
Well welcome back, Laurie! Wow, two weeks worth of posts to catch up on here doesn't even seem doable… Sometimes I feel like missing just half a day can be pretty rugged sometimes.
I'm picturing the back of your car at border crossing and the look his face while calling it an "interesting stash." It's so true that many of us could be better prepared – I'm a little better now, but still wouldn't really be ready for anything quite on the scale of what the Kim's went through.
Thank you Maggie and Mapper, I will not likely be on here much, but I very much appreciate the level of concern and efforts to be open minded I've seen when reading this blog over the past several days.
To entry 223, yes the Oregonian did get it wrong, but I can't fault anyone for thinking that way. The irony is that it was the Oregonians willingness to use information entirely out of context that led LE officials to issue a gag order to all of us involved. And rightly so, had we tried to "straighten them out" it would have only made it much worse. In the long run we are all better off waiting for an official third party review. And yes the OSSA investigation is very much third party review. While I can't provide details, I can tell you their research phase was intense.
I will give you one specific aspect of the Oregonian reporting that has been very misleading. They have focused on blaming Rubrecht for much of what they say went wrong. They have also attacked her qualifications to run a search. This is crazy, she is not a search manager, it is not part of her job as SAR Coordinator. I'm not saying her role isn't important, it is, but there is always a sworn Deputy in charge. She coordinates resources for them. So because she is the one placing the calls for helicopters there is an assumption that she was responsible for the whole search. It is a classic case of shooting the messenger. And the sad part is that the Oregonian knows this.
As for entry 339, there are many conflicting reports. This entry makes reference to a conversation reported in the GR between Powers and Rubrecht. And I agree, that the statement taken from Powers report does not jive with what we know. To say that they are both good people would be an understatement, but somewhere in the effort to balance thousands of details over multiple sixteen to eighteen hour days, these misunderstandings happen. Keep in mind that this communication slip had no impact on the search. Those responsible for searching the spur roads had teams up there every day from Friday on. By the way, Bear Camp is part BLM, part USFS. I'm not sure how many spur roads are in the BLM areas, but there are 160 spur roads off Bear Camp in the National Forest.
Maggie, Laurie,
this whole thing has justified the usual mess of stuff I keep in the trunk of my car. I thought i was just lazy, after moving so many times and not wanting to deal with certain odds and ends (even a winter coat and some extra shoes and fire kindling back there!). Now I feel like I can just go ahead and leave it there!
I do imagine how funny I would look walking out of the woods wearing an assemblage of the clothing i have left in there….it was left there for a reason 🙂
335 – Phil, what you have said about the gag order really does make an awful lot of sense. I can understand not wanting to dig the hole any deeper and instead hushing and letting a third party investigate and sort it out more objectively. As you can tell, we are all *very* interested in hearing that report and hope that anyone temporarily "hushed" will be free to express whatever comments they have.
For so long, we had only information from the media, and then some different perspective from JoCoSAR and RRR, but even they, like you, were not able to say much other than that it wasn't quite correct.
Anyway, even if you are not able to post much, it's good to have you here when you can be!
336 – I never unpacked my trunk from summer camping, thought about finally doing it, and then this happened. So yes, I have a weird assortment in my trunk, and some of it I'd be very glad to have if I needed it – plus I still don't feel like putting it all away 🙂
Phil, yes it is good to hear from you. If you can, could you tell anything else about the map used in the search? did it come form the USDA or USFS? Does BLM do their own maps, I mean, I know at least one agency must be doing a pretty comprehensive map of the area, I would be interested in learning who this is, if anything to correct my own thinking about the situation and where to direct my concerns if I have them
for example I really would love to suggest the "you are here maps" but am not sure if this would have to be a joint project between agencies, or if it would be a usfs thing or even usda map, but the structure done by antoher agency? I dont know
Not being part of the SAR law enforcement group, but rather the investigative end, I have not been "gagged" with respect to the ongoing inquries. Out of respect for the ongoing independent investigations, of course, I will not be commenting on specific aspects of the case either right now.
That said, I would like to share some personal insight with regard to the media. Specifically, the Oregonian. And I'm certain this will not come as a surprise to any of you, but as someone who feels like one of the most often "misquoted" (literally and through "editorial inference") persons involved in this investigation, I can tell you I have never been involved in a missing persons investigation that has been so media-generated (and I have been involved in upwards of 1500 missing persons cases over the past years).
Don't get me wrong- the media can have a definite valuable role in sharing information with the public, but sharing "information" or "news" is the key here. Putting something on Page 1 that basically amounts to an extended editorial does not, in my book, qualify as "news."
The Oregonian, in particular, also has a tendency (and I wish I could recall the correct terminology for it), but they have a tendency to "sandwich" editorial comments or observations, if you will, between quotes from, say, law enforcement officials in this case. The resulting effect is the written equivalent of whatever editorial comment appears in between two quoted statements (often out of context, to begin with) from one source, is the feeling, though or criticism being conveyed by the quoted person. Does that make sense? I know it's late.
And despite how it may seem, I am not anti-media, just anti-inaccuracy. The media is often a valuable ally, especially during missing persons investigations, as they share information with the public to assist us in locating people safely, albeit usually in less critical circumstances as this.
sorry, that was meant to read feeling, thought, or criticism…
An acquaintance had to evacuate in an RV and rather wisely chose to take the RV along the back-country roads rather than the overly clogged freeway. Certain decisions become critical and tempers do flare in an overcrowded RV stuffed with pets and personalities and being driven along difficult back roads by a driver under great stress. They never passed by an open gas station or an operating ATM. Different things become important under different circumstances. So the "stash" under the spare tire, while obviously incomplete, is still not a bad idea. In some circumstances you might trade that entire jar of peanut butter for a half ounce of insect repellant!
LOS maps. Perhaps its unusual but LOS maps will become more and more important. Not just cell towers, but viewpoints, zoning issues, surveillance, etc. Someone does not have to know much about the details of an LOS map to realize the tremendous "nugget" that was being offered to the SAR people who had so far been dealing with a lot of low-grade ore. A 26 mile circle with the freeway depicted on it isn't much help but with the back roads and particularly the back roads leading to the coast on it and their tributaries, you get a good tool. Even the receptionist at the SAR place should realize the value of the nugget.
I think there have been some allegations of the newspapers "not getting it right". Good!! Any newspaper that waits until they get things absolutely right would be of about as much use as a SAR agency that waits for July to deal with the snow. Everyone must deal with uncertainty and incomplete information. I think the greatest gain that may come from the various reviews is the realization that separate agencies with separate terminology and formats for reports are not going to be working well anymore. Standardization and precision in communication become important. "Last known cell phone use" appears at first glance to be rather specific but as more information became available its meaning changed completely. A Road referred to as "Bear Camp Road" is in reality a complex maze of various designations and branches. And "searched Bear Camp Rd" can mean anything from went out and tried to search a portion of it to completed the search of its entire length to completed the search of its entire length and all reasonable detours and tributaries. A 'search' can be "noted that I saw no tire tracks at a particular turnoff and therefore conclude a certain tributary need not be searched right now" or a 'search' can be 'I drove the road as far as I could but it was so demanding I couldn't even look at the turnoffs'.
Its a lot of information that is being fed into the SAR centers and coordination is important.
One restaurant had the description of the vehicle posted in large letters even after it had been found. I've seen flyers posted about a "missing person" several weeks after a headline-making discovery that it was a voluntary departure to embark on a new life. Everyone "gets things wrong" because those who wait for something to be absolutely and totally correct are often a great threat to the success of the mission.
Ironically, when I had a conversation with an unnamed Oregonian reporter yesterday (who might have written the Friday night/Sat. am news story people have been referring to), I let him know I did not appreciate his "editorializing," by adulterating what factual information my agency had provided to various reporters, in the spirit of transparency and open communication, which PPB is big on. I have to give him credit that this particular person was actually reasonable to deal with, and did, in fact, acknowledge that the sandwiched editorial comments were those of the Oregonian's "own investigation," despite the written inference that PPB was being critical of SAR operations, which, from the beginning, we have not commented on.
Detective Mike.
I do understand what your saying. I can't remember any direct quotes I have read from you. But I completley understand what you mean.
Fools Gold – not disagreeing with the waiting til they get everything just right idea. However, in this case, the media has seemingly attempted to play the law enforcement/SAR agencies against one another, in order to get more play out of public emotion.
The other thing that many have commented on is the fact that, when any media outlet has reported certain information as "fact" or whatever they're calling it, which is not refuted by the alleged "source," that often seems to be taken as something along the lines of "silence = consent," which could not be further from the truth.
340 – Det. Mike, it made perfect sense how you explained it, and I think you are correct that it's not a surprise to a many people who have read the Oregonian even before this. There have been a few here such as Madeleine and Paul that know a bit about how the media works and have discussed it some, even Kati's Dad mentioned it with reference to past stories, and it sounds like it really can be a double-edged sword.
I respect that you may not wish to answer this at this time (or maybe not even later), but I'll put it out there just in case it is something you feel may be commented on even in general. Pages back on this very ongoing blog, there was some discussion about the media's reporting that you were out sick on the day that information first came to your desk about this missing family. Since time is critical, many of us were a bit puzzled that there would not always be someone available to handle this sort of information in the absence of someone like yourself. If there is any light you can shed on this, I'd be interested. Again, it's perfectly understood and respected if this is not something that you would like to address, especially with the other investigation in progress, but I couldn't help but put it out there in case you do wish to comment.
In any case, it is very good to have you here, and I very much appreciated what you've had to say.
I think most would be understanding of the idea that, during an ongoing investigation, or even after it has seemed to slow down or resolve, "no comment" might equate to agreement with whatever information is floating around out there in the world. Again, couldn't be further from the truth.
It's just that our responsibilities obviously extend beyond correcting or feeding the media, including accurate and timely documentation of the incident, debriefing critical internal information, further follow-up, etc. Not to mention investigators' other ongoing cases in which someone expects the same level of professional involvement and committment, even if it might not be such a high-profile case.
Sadly, the "silence = consent" idea is a powerful one, and I think many of us were guilty of that until we started hearing even just the murmur of objection from underneath the gag. That's when the mind "re-opening" began to occur.
The media ain't perfect but neither was the James Kim SAR effort. The media is a communication bridge between government and its master, the public. Allowing government to control what the media communicates is a bad idea. Libel and slander law does it well enough.
Maggie – How about I answer that somewhat generally. First of all, it is true that on Wed., 11/29 (which, someone pointed out to me today that I incorrectly noted as 11/28 in my report by accident, which would have been prior to the police report in San Fran even having been made)… on Wed. I was out sick, as reported in the Chronicle. However, as my report notes (which has already been made public), the missing person report wasn't even made in San Fran until after normal business hrs., so I wouldn't have known about it until the next day normally, unless someone specifically contacted me about it.
As for having people avail. 24/7 – we do, and I generally am. The "notification" to PPB was made by a San Fran police officer (who did a bang up job at initiating this missing persons case, in my opinion), who left a voicemail for me with an "FYI" message, generally advising me that a San Fran family had been reported missing and might be passing thru Portland on a roadtrip. He noted he would fax me a copy of their report to my office, which he did.
My office receives probably 250+ "FYI" calls or requests for outside agency assistance each year. Each one is reviewed as it comes in. Not one case gets by without being fully reviewed for viable information which might require our immediate or future assistance…..
James need not have died, that's so damn sad and maddening to me. Geees, even just an ordinary guy like Joe had it right. Not in hindsight either.
One helicopter flying the BLM 34-8-36 road from the well known notoriously confusing Bear Camp fork on Friday Dec 1st or on the following day was all that was needed. Even a snowmobile woulda probably worked. If the Kims weren't spotted the engine noise would have given them hope that help was near. James would not have felt compelled to set out on his fatal trek. Bloody hell!!
The investigations are all one sided governmental sponsored. Some balance is needed. Perhaps John Rachor, Eric Fuqu and Spencer Kim want to tell their stories in detail, publicly. Afterall they (and James) are the true heroes here. I wonder if any SAR or government official has considered asking them? …Dumb question!
The reason I knew about the San Fran officer's call that night is because I DO take my responsibility seriously, and recognize that emergent situations happen round the clock. I happened to call and listen to my voicemails, as I often do, late in the evening, although, as I mentioned, it was an "FYI" message. I have a 24/7 pager, and if anyone has any concerns regarding missing persons related to the CIty of Portland, you can believe me when I say they do not hesitate to contact me at any hour of any day (either directly or thru our 24 hr dispatch center). Additionally, we always have a persons crimes (I am part of the Homicide/Assault Detail) supervisor on call, 24/7, 265 days a year.
oops….365 days/yr.
Kip – keep in mind I'm only referring to Maggie's question, and any comments regarding the media have nothing to do with positions regarding SAR, which I am not qualified to comment on. I do agree with you that folks such as Fuqua, et al, are true heroes, to come forward when they did not have to. Nothing is ever meant to take away from their altruistic efforts.
Government (at least our agency) does not want to control the media – we just want what factual information we provide to be accurately reported. THe media is free to editorialize all they want, as long as they own it and don't attribute it wrongly to someone else. That's what free speech is all about, isn't it?
350 – For somewhat generally, you really did answer it pretty specifically, and I appreciate that! Joe here has arranged through someone in your office, I believe, to have that report (I think it's the same as you just referenced?) sent to me so that I may scan it and post it to share with the others here, so it's good to hear that the information will be included. Thank you for shedding your light on this – it was one of those pieces that just didn't sound quite right. I promise, that's my last question for now, and I'm just very glad to hear as much of your perspectives as you care to share.
352 – Personally, I'd prefer a 265 day work year 😉 It's fair to want accuracy, for better or for worse, in the media. I don't think anyone can really argue with that.
Always glad to try and clear up questions – especially related to my responsibiities, and which have already been made public through my report (yes, same one). You'll find it is basically a detailed, narrative chronology of my involvement from the start. Includes everything from how we were notified, everyone our agency had contact with, information that was received and investigated, right up to and including the specifics regarding the hotel which chose to invoke its privacy policy and how that transpired. I hope it provides some insight for everyone, given that it our job is fact-gathering, and we try to report our involvement professionally, thoroughly and objectively.
(357) Here Here!
the 265 days part
Power is flickering here during storm, time to turn off battery backup and computer before it blows up. Thanks for keeping open minds.
Thank you so much, Det. Mike. I look forward to receiving the report and getting it posted to share. As you can tell, we are all just wanting to understand – as factually as we can find – what all transpired in this case that has gripped so many of us and do whatever we can to help in the future. Sincerely, thank you very much.
Yes, power is flickering a bit here out in the outskirts as well… Have a good night!
[354&355].. Det Mike, I appreciate your responding and contributing openly your views here. Thank you.
I don't know about 'playing one agency against the other' or not.
IF each and every agency were honest and forthright and made no attempt to shield themselves from scrutiny it would be not only unnecessary for the media to play one agency against the other, it would be impossible.
There was a death in the cold and damp. There is an inquiry underway. The inquiry, still at preliminary stages, appears to reveal that the death was an unnecessary one but not one resulting from any callous or overt acts. Signage issues, tree limbs, phone calls, maps, … things are being looked at but it seems the agencies may be paying more attention to the spotlight's glare than to what the spotlight reveals.
A thought and a suggestion.
We, the general public, have no where to turn to get information on news events other than the news media. The news media has not lived up to their responsibility of reporting the facts, just the facts, ma'm. That is the reson myself and from the postings, most others here have turned here to try to get the facts without the 'embedded & misleading & disguised' editoral comment and spin.
What we are seeing on Joe's little blog here, I think, as I am open to being corrected if I am wrong, something of a novelity here – people of a factions of an event which had made the news interacting with each other, in a fashion fairly unmonitored (don't take offense Joe, am getting ready to explain) other the the good judgement of the person whose blog this is and each individual and then the group itself. I think we've done a pretty good job of keeping things civil & coming up with some good questions and suggestions and ideas.
As Katie was presented with a list of questions derived from this blog, once all of the reports are in, those who of their own free will have joined us here, who were involved in the this tragedy, would they also be willing to submit to a list of questions derived from this blog?
The list of questions being gathered & editied before presentation in the same manner which the questions to Katie was submitted.
We, the public, KNOW the media isn't always feeding us the unbiasised truth, but we have had no where else to turn.
In doing this it would servie purpose on both sides – we would get our news uneditied, unspun, the other side can have what they have to say put out there to the public unedited and unspun.
I hesitiate to suggest this as I'm not able to do any of the actual work in this, but at the same time, I think it's ok to throw it out there should others choose to.
And to those officials involved in this case, thank each and every one of you for coming here.
Correction: we the public know the news medis ISN'T always feeding us the unbiased unspun facts, but UNTIL now, we've have no where else to turn to get our news
Phil, at 326, thanks for the insight, but I have a question below.
"The next day, Fuqua called state police at 5:49 p.m. (Saturday), saying he had information about the exact time of the Kims' last cell phone transmission, and that it was within 26 miles of the company's Glendale cell tower in the direction of the "mountains going toward the coast."
The Portland detective, Michael Weinstein, wrote in a report that the first contact he received about Fuqua came that evening. Weinstein passed that information to state police, and by the next morning, searchers were meeting with Fuqua and poring over maps he provided highlighting areas of cell coverage." Oregonian and GR
Phil at 326
"They insisted that all of us work as if it was our family lost out there. Then there is the fact that they stayed late into the night before leaving the operation in the hands of the night shift, and were there before everyone else in the morning. So yes, Anderson's tears were real, and they were far from the only tears in the command post that day. Bottom line is that I would pick them to manage a search for my children anytime."
What did the "night shift" do with the cell phone map or the cellphone information during the 12 hours from 2000 Saturday night until the 0800 meeting and subsequent 1100 meeting with Fuqua on Sunday? My guess is "Nothing". ….and if I am right, that is what is wrong with your search.
This might be fixed by having an expert available (24/7) from a state agency or private agency to help you with collecting and interpreting this technical information on future searches. (like a radiologist who can interpret Xray films 24/7) That is until the expertise is available routinely at the county level. This info is not easily retrievable, I think we heard it takes hours of pouring over files in the cell phone office.
Who was in charge of the "night shift"? I hope it was the 2nd or 3rd most experienced SAR person, who could collect, eval the intel and plan the next days activities to start at first light or dispatch assets during the night. My guess is that this was the case. If it was some well meaning volunteers, who recorded phone calls, answered media, made coffee, then that is not so good.
For Det Mike, thanks for participating– I too was happy to see how fast this search formed on Thursday and Friday. You and the SF police were in no small part responsible for that. Did you add any context to the cell phone engineer info, when transmitted to the State Police? Did you know if Fuqua could draw a map of likely locations of last cell phone use? Does this rise to the top of the pile of tips? Is it (aside from an eyewitness sighting beyond the last known point on the expected route of travel) the best available tip? The reason I ask is because the Jo Co SAR seems to have treated it in a slow, methodical manner.
Well I agree there is a fine line between editorializing and presenting context. I think the Oregonian is doing just fine. I don't want them to publish the GP Chronology without providing some context. They tell us what is new and changed from past stories and they can correct past factual inaccuracies.
The agencies have their own press spokesmen if they want to clear up specific items. If they don't, then the public is left hanging and trying to keep an open mind. Or they can come to Joe Ducks blog and get the "ground truth"!!! or the "groundup truth".
bamadad, you write so well, like so many on this forum. I have to say you have summed up what worries me, in particular, about the timeline of what happened with Eric's info. I thank you, cause now I dont have to try to forumlate this thought myself as I had the exact same question, about the timeline. Though, it probably comes through pretty clearly in my posts already.
I'm glad your here. You also write very well and I'm glad to read your informative responses.
I especially like the thought of working 265 days a year though!
(369) 😆 "groundup truth"
Pretty soon we'll put it in the coffee grinder with some Dutch Brothers . . . . Speaking of which, I'm definitely ready for another cup of jo
me too angela….me too.
349 – Kip, will all due respect, libel and slander laws don't keep the media from at times misreporting information. I wouldn't want a censored media, of course, just one that takes responsibility for what they print. And the public needs to hold them accountable when their personal views are incorporated into news stories as fact.
LE agencies, for example, very often cannot comment on an ongoing investigation, so media will often play the game of throwing things out there and seeing what sticks. Or they go with an angle that is designed to provoke a response that people are simply not free to make at the time. As Detective Mike alluded to, the "no comment" is interpreted as "Aha! It must be true". I guess people are used to seeing the bad guys say this on TV when confronted with truth.
At tmes the media can be used as pawns by less than savory individuals or groups who have an axe to grind. On the other hand, I've seen some excellent investigative reporting that shed light where others couldn't, reporting at its best. Bottom line, opinions belong in editorials that are clearly marked as such, not woven into news stories.
I would like to address the point about pouring over cell phone records. The records for all cell phone traffic are typically called Call Detail Records (CDR) and there is also low level switch data typically managed by the engineering groups within a cell phone provider.
These records are not paper records; these records are rows of data within databases. The issue with any of the switch data, and/or call detail records is the sheer volume of them. They are stored in a mechanism that is designed for billing processing, diagnostics, etc. So to process through the information takes a long time even for computers.
To put the size of it into perspective think about how many people have bank accounts in the USA. Think about how many banking transactions each account holder does every day. Think about how much work it would be for someone to process information out of the transactions just in the ATM networks (separate companies, etc).
Ok now let's compare to cellular. There are twice as many people in the USA that have cellphones than have bank accounts! Approximately 100 million plus have banks accounts – About 230 million people have cellphones. Now think about how many text messages, phone calls, etc are performed by each person each day. You are talking about billions and billions of transactions. Now think about the process of searching through days of those records with computers to find message traffic that is marked with the signature of a particular cellphone.
It just is a huge data problem and takes a long time to process it. BTW – since the platform typically isn't designed to handle this type of request it takes up a lot of valuable resource that the cellphone provider doesn't have. While they are processing a data search it takes away from the computing power they need to effectively run their networks.
Now this is a generalization of the process and some cellphone providers might have different capabilities but I hope this provides some insight to the size of the issue when deal with cellphone data.
Det Mike – thank you for the insight and reminders. I can barely begin to imagine working on over 1500 missing persons cases and what that must do to your psyche. Thank you for all that you do. Thank you for taking the time from your busy schedule to provide additional insight and perspective (unless you can really pull off that 265 days, then maybe not so busy 🙂 )
Phil at 335– excellent comments, thank you very much. Supports previous JoCoSAR statements and provides some perspective on the road network off Bear Camp== first time I have heard there are over 160 spur roads. I have seen the Google Earth map from early on and saw the maze. That is why I have focused on the cell phone map– it just narrowed the box quite a bit with X number of intersections (57 or so I think) but I still don't have a handle on how much.
Good Morning!
Thank you for that database info. If I may read between your lines: Are you saying that Eric's initial call was that he had an idea to go through this data, however he had not done so at that point? That it wasn't until late Saturday that he had gone through the enormous task that you described and that was the second call? Something like, Yes, my idea did pan out and I do have some data
(378) Hard to say. I am not sure how many switches he had to search or if Edge has their data in one central repository. He probably started searching immediately it just takes an enormous amount of time to process that much data. Eric sounds pretty resourceful and I think he began immediately
I hope Eric posts here so we can hear directly from him.
(377) I think it also translates into over 400 miles of roads. Maybe in addition to the skull and crossbones on the sign we should add:
Pack Mules are suggested to be used on these routes.
of course not to be confused with the lurking PacMule(s) that hang around here. 🙂
if I may read between the lines of the lines you think glenn may be reading into the timeline. 🙂
Its my hypothesis, that eric had the ping information when he made the first call (and had the are narrowed down but not a map). Downtrodden by the response, realized he needed to do a line of site map (or something specific like thiis) and called back later.
I wonder if eric even had the best knowledge to do this kind of map, found help, learned quickly, or what.
just a hypothesis, extraordinary either way to me.
Hopefully we hear from eric one day soon!
(379) and (381) Yes, Eric defintiely sounds persistent. It's funny, when you first mentioned line of sight mapping I had this visual of just looking for what you could see – sounded so easy. Finally it dawned on me that you weren't at the spot looking out, you were looking at the map calculating what you could see from that spot. (yes, I can be so slow sometimes) Still sounded pretty simple – just draw a line. It's amazing how 2-D we can be at times!! Topo – oops not just a line! Just trying to trace the Peavine road on the internet the other night was difficult and I know that was just the tip of the iceberg.
Well…your post gets at one of the fundamental reasons gis is still a growing discipline and not always properly funded or understood by decision makers in government agencies. Many people are unaware of what we do and what analysis capabilties gis software has, and what level of training professionals need to be able to operate at a certain level.
I understand this though…and certainly wasn't expecting people to follow me when I was ranting about it 3 pages ago!
ps. eric may have used something other than gis to create his map (or someone did for him or whatever). just commenting on our past discussion of the line of sight map!
Mapper (383) – And thank you so much for your expertise and plain language in explaining so much of this. With your help here on this blog I'm at least beginning to understand how little I know 🙂
Glenn Cmt 375 thanks. I knew it was difficult. I hope a cell phone engineer could tell us, how many hours it would take from receipt of the cellphone number to drawing up a map. Given the Kim example– I am just guessing but I think around 6-15 hours. Mr Fuqua had some help from another engineer putting this all together. But this would have to done by a mosaic of providers along the route of travel. Complicated and expensive.
I am trying to figure out if this could be a standard of practice for every SAR in a similar situation.
One sad thing is that this blog has not drawn one anonymous SAR professional from outside Southern Oregon to provide some facts. Maybe this is just the exceptional set of circumstances.
Thanks. I'm still learning about my own field every day! As mentioned before I have been at this for quite a few years and I didn't make my first line of sight map until last summer, as it is not really a common or neccessary application unless you work with that kind of thing regularly.
I'm very curious about Eric's methods and if it is what I think it is.
Glenn Cmt 375 thanks. I knew it was difficult. I hope a cell phone engineer could tell us how many hours it would take from receipt of the cellphone number to drawing up a map. Given the Kim example– I am just guessing but I think around 6-12 hours. Mr Fuqua had some help from another engineer putting this all together. But this would have to done by each provider along the route of travel. Complicated and expensive.
I am trying to figure out if this could be a standard of practice for every SAR in a similar situation.
One sad thing is that this blog has not drawn one anonymous SAR professional from outside Southern Oregon to provide some facts. Maybe this is just the exceptional set of circumstances.
I could give you pretty specific details about the time it would take to drawing up this kind of map, and if it could be implemented in most governments. The variable is really the cell information (pings and coordinates of the tower)
But I guess I am just waiting to hear more first before I comment too much on it.
Kati's blog…1/5/07…Six months ago my husband made post-holiday vacation plans for me and the family. We had a tradition of working the family business on X-mas eve, participating in the obligatory holiday family rituals, and then enjoying some post-ritual relaxation. Unfortunately, my husband was unable to fulfill the familial obligations this year. However, the vacation was paid for in-full and my children and I certainly merited some post-holiday relaxation.
The trip was great. The relaxation blissful. The return trip was less than ideal. A 5-hour delay on the first leg of our return meant that we missed all of our connecting flights. A diaper shortage, surplus of exhaustion, incompetent and surly (alternately) AA reps, and it all added up to 36 hours of holiday travel misery. Luckily, when we missed our return flight to SFO by 7 minutes, my travelmates and I were able to secure a complimentary room at the LAX La Quinta. Although our lost luggage meant that we lacked essentials like toothpaste and clean underwear, the midnight – 3:45 am slumber was quite refreshing.
My only complaint was the attitude of Jose, the off-hours manager, who insisted on knowing the destination of my 4am elevator ride. He made sure I was aware that access to both the exercise room and the pool was prohibited in the middle of the night .
Luckily, this was all made up for by Cognac, the friendly and adorable off-hours front desk person who sent me down to the corner AM PM for juice and milk for my jet-lagged babies. Clued in by the guy begging for hotdog money and multiple car horn honks, I'm pretty sure that few non-hooker ladies make the same early-morning supply run. Unfortunately, I only had a $50 bill and the AM PM clerk refused to accept a large bill for my meager purchases.
Sad but safe, I returned to the La Quinta to prepare myself for the final leg of my trip back home.
At first I was skeptical of my ability to return unharmed; but, upon my departure, Cognac had assured me that he had my back. True to his word, he was waiting out front for me when I returned to the hotel. Not only that, but, since I'd only been able to purchase milk (juice and bottled water denied on account of my lack of small bills), Cognac brought fresh bottled water up to the room, free of charge.
The La Quinta'll never make my short list of must-see sights in LA, but I'll always have fond memories of Cognac and his midnight water run for me and my travel-weary babes.
377- FYI there is 160 FORREST SERVICES roads ONLY, which does not count the BLM roads up there and that is what they were actually found on…..BTW GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD Morning Blog!!
Mapper, thanks.
Here is a current article of some interest on cell phone tracking. Doesn't really answer the SAR usage question.
I've noted one apparently glaring deficiency. Nowhere have I found in the GR anything that was a 'The Story So Far' sort of summary for SAR personnel or the media to get brought up to speed on the situation. There didn't seem to be any status reports generated. No one prepared and issued 'asset utilization summaries' or the like. There seems to be a lack of 'snapshots' showing what teams were available, what were they tasked to and what was happening. As the locus of control shifted from the coastal county to Josephine County, did the SAR coordinator get a briefing or update of any sort? Did the personnel get a "the story so far" type of summary or where they all expected to either remember things or repetitively look them up all the time?
Name, vehicle description, last known point of contact, last known cell use, cell numbers, intended destination. All this stuff probably changes or gets corrupted with transmission to new people. Avoiding constant errors by having an official 'update' seems a good thing to do.
well, this is where you start to see the huge disparity between agencies with funding and without. yes, all phones will have gps….and when the call comes into 911 some call centers will be ready and some wont (automatically the call will show up on a map in the call center)….this is geocoding-heavy. Many of us in gis have worked to get the databases ready for when this is all in full swing (actually driving around with laptops..yes, yours truly, recording or making sure addresses are correctly recorded in the gis data)
for now, many times a line of sight map will need to be created, and its my opinion — the expertise lies with the cell phone provider to get the ping data.
the expertise to make the map lies with gis people or cartographers, often employed by the very agencies in question here.
here is a link that speaks of line of sight mapping
now… I feel I must stop speaking about this, as I do not want to insert my idea into what should happen too much 🙂
its been awhile since i was working in the e911 area, most of the time I work now with hydrology and geology, and less with municipal gis so I just dont want to insult the people who are working hard in this area more recently (like eric).
I wonder if various computer programs already in existence might have helped. What about movie "sets" wherein a model is computerized and then a viewpoint is changed. The programs are all set up to have POV be correct for objects and terrain. Perhaps existing algorithms would have made the task easier or faster?
386- I agree Barnadad – some objective SAR professionals
would be very helpful to have.
I must say again that for me the main issue is not blame,
and everyone makes mistakes.
Some mistakes are more innocent and understandable,
'people truly didn't know better'.
But so far, some mistakes seem more massive and were
made by people who should have known better.
I don't care who made the mistakes. I care that the mistakes
were made that contributed to a family's long, harrowing
ordeal and suffering. Suffering that almost led to all of
their deaths.
'All the spur roads have been checked? Josephine County is
going to end the search?'
What! Hello?
I don't plan on attacking anyone – no matter how big their
mistakes were.
But that doesn't mean that the mistakes were not huge,
and at this point, seemingly gross and negligent.
I've been feeling choked by this kind of 'favoritism
protectionism', and it doesn't help anyone to protect
them from some major mistakes they made. I won't be harsh, but they won't really learn, if we all go 'ooooh, it's
okay, didn't mean to make mistakes…"
The explanations I've heard so far have been very weak.
'There were tire tracks everywhere.' Not when John James
first saw them. 'They were farther down that road than
almost anyone had been before…' So? Sounds like excuses
to me.
I'm not going to rake anyone over the coals.
I know people tried.
And Phil I know people cared, especially toward the end
of the search after Kati and the girls were found. But
there seems to be something very lacking in the 'courtesy
checking of roads'. And you know who was in charge of that
at the time.
Again – I will wait. I will not be personally harsh.
But I don't think the Sheriff's report is going to clear
this 'road'. Maybe it will.
I would love to have it all explained! 🙂
No hard feelings, I would feel this way no matter who
was 'repsonsible'.
And Maggie, I can't not say these things at this time.
I will wait to decide ultimately what I really think.
But I can't hide the way I'm feeling now.
State Officer Powers wouldn't just say those things,
that was a very important call…
Well, Fools Gold,
I am not sure your experience in this area as you sound quite knowledgable.
All I can say is, good raster elevation data and the observer point (in this case, the cell tower) and gis spatial analyst extension (given the data was accurate and already downloaded, projected, etc). It would take me about ….10 minutes at the most to come up with something reasonably accurate.
The resulting map would have two colors… a binary map. The cells would represent "true" or "false" true being….yes this in line of sight.
I actually did a project to see how accurate this method is. Its not perfect. but quick and better than searching 2000 sq. miles.
eric may have spent a little extra time to create something with degrees of confidnece (ie. true, truer, truest)
Ersi should be paying me for so heavily touting their product! 🙂
now i really should be quiet! 🙂
sorry, ESRI
I want to say that I've just now looked at the photos that were taken of the 'intersection' at which it appears the Kims took a fateful 'detour' onto a logging road by going to the right when they should have continued straight ahead into rising terrain on the narrower route to the coast.
I can truly state that even now, knowing full well which is the correct route to the coast and seeing the signage in a photo taken in clear weather and in daylight, I would still think the wide, inviding and slightly descending route would appear to me to be the favorable route and would appear to me to be the 'main road'.
So I can't really say that in a snow storm with the windshield perhaps obscured by snow, ice and condensation, at night, under stress and after a long day, I can't in any way at all fault someone for making the same choice I would make now in daylight, in clear weather and knowing the situation.
(384) The cellphone providers typically have solid mapping capabilities within their organizations unless they are a MVNO type operation. They need the mapping capability for spectrum coverage, tower coverage maps, etc…they are quite sophisticated in their mapping capability.
well I have asked this question several times with no real responses. I am glad that they do. But if they dont, all I am saying is there are people in house that can do this kind of thing too.
RRR – I'm sorry. I'm sure you probably don't like my
post. I am fond of you – and JoCoSAR.
It really isn't personal for me. But I really am upset
by these mistakes as they seem to be revealed so far,
from a number of sources.
Again, I would be upset with these mistakes, no matter
who made them.
Ultimately we will know more, and this all too shall pass…
But I just can't hide my feelings.
403- I have learned to have tough skin, I may comment to my computer screen and then let it slide….No hard feelings.
In fact, it doesn't matter to me who does the map, as the people doing maps at the cell phone company are the same kinds of people who would be working for the county either as engineers of map makers.
what matters to me, is that there is a bridge of communication. what has bothered me, and its an assumption, is the timeline, and if joco fully utilized their in house gis people to help communicate the info eric was giving to them.
and truly, it is in the past. in fact I am much more interested in what can be learned for the future.
I am fond of you too. I hope this is not terribly offensive as I do feel I am speaking out of bounds right now, and I dont have the facts. I do hope you will forgive my speculation!
406- I am telling ya'll don't be tip toeing around, we have thick skin and can take it…We don't want you to feel as if you can express yourself freely and then have to apologize for your words…We can take it and we will let you know equally what we think……Fair enough 🙂
your a better human than myself! I simply dont like to be wrong so I would rather not say anything!
the truth is, no matter what happend as I have said before, I understand this is not normal or something done regularly. I am not interested in placing blame on an under funded county, with sincere volunteers and professionals.
I'm much more interested in some low-tech "you are here maps" !
But I have been drawn into commenting on some of these things as I do have some experience with them.
I have gotten it out of my system for the most part.
I won't harp on it. I just needed to do that.
Did I hear the Breakfast bell ring…..
I think so! 🙂
I will be interested in hearing more of your guys'
explanations. I know there are a lot of spur roads, but
isn't 34-8-36 like 'the one' that people get mixed up
on the most if they're trying to take Bear Camp to the
I know you probably won't be able to answer that! 🙂
Is there or are there standard procedure(s) for the
order in which those roads are cleared?
Have you eaten breakfast?
I liked the part mapper about you ending up wearing those
clothes in the back of your car, that have been left there
for that other reason… I bet you'd still look cute! 🙂
412- As for the calls that have been "recorded" for the area there has only been ONE from memory that was on that particular road…You see most calls are "Help I am suck send a tow truck" not "Help I have lost my family and I think they MAY be up there"….When Dave was qouted the 34 something calls are calls for service not always a search…Does that help???
As for a standard for clearing roads it all depends on the information that is given to us….ie location of travel, each case is totaly different so then the order of how roads are "cleared' is ALWAYS different….No two SAR calls are EVER the same across the board weather it is a BC call or a RIver rescue call…..
I am in the process of eating breakfast!! Had to cook it first….
just got around to reading the copied text from katis blog. She is a great writer and quite funny! She is really keeping her sense of humor! I know in times past for me too, it was certainly helpful in getting me through.
hahahah. I was going to elaborate on the stuff that is left in the trunk of my car but with the attention this blog has been getting I thought maybe not everyone wants the image of a woman walking out of the forest wearing shorts over her jeans and a tank top on her head, as most of the stuff left in my trunk, with the exception of my winter coat is from summer as well! but, we do what we must to keep warm right!? I would also be burning magazines from 2004 and probably throwing a few high heels into the fire along with the mags.
hahah. I guess I should put some more appropriate gear into the car, but most of my driving is suburban as of late.
Madeleine – I liked that about how dogs have owners, cats
have staff! That is so true! My 16 to be 17 in April, orange
kitty likes me to always pour his food fresh right in front
of him, and he likes me to pet him while he eats! He is
very high maintenance!
I know that is off topic, but I thought I would say something lighter! 🙂
RRR – Whatcha eatin and are the crown vics still there? lol
416- Some slop! No I think that they got washed away in the rain last night…..
You had rain and the Wimer area has snow.
418- Very nice did you pull out your ski's????
414- mapper, that just gets even better!
Not enough for that but the "muddin" is a kick in the ass! There are some BLM areas out here by my house that are perfect for that.
Lisa/396: I am not going into just how much editorializing you are doing in that entry except to say it is considerable. We don't have all the facts yet but you seem to have reached multiple conclusions.
What I will ask is this: Could you PLEASE do something about your "wrap" and/or use of the return key ?? You entries are harder to read because they are formatted so strangely and run on like mega-Haiku's. I don't see this happening with anyone else so I can only assume you type about 5 words and then hit your return key. I know, I know, it is (and I concede) an exceedingly minor point, but I suspect I'm not the only person who it bugs.
I dont know if I am speechless because of that article (422) or if its because I've hardly stopped posting since last night.
422- Wow. I just read that, and I am crying…
What a powerful letter from Spencer Kim, James'Dad.
It really sums it up so well, and even adds more
information (about media helicopters, etc.) that
we did not know here…
You can tell what a remarkable man he is, and you
can feel his love for James…
Thank you, Mapper and Maggie, for your kind welcome.
Three quick comments I would like to make….first a question.
On the coast there is a radio channel one can tune to for
current weather information. Does such a service exist on
Second…although we are nearing the end of the current solar minimum, there was a series of Xclass flares that occurred in early December. I strongly suspect that this activity may have been a factor in this tragedy…or, at least, in the way many people responded to this tragedy.
About the media…I was involved a few years ago with an article that was published in a well-known and respected magazine…written by a writer I very much admire. Even
though he and I exchanged several emails, had two phone conversations, and a follow-up phone conversation with the fact-checker…there were still some problems with the published article. Not defending the media here…just noting that even when people are trying *very* hard to be
accurate, misunderstandings can and do occur.
423- Paul – don't talk to me that way. I don't tell you
what to do with your opinions. And I don't care what you
think of mine.
428- This is a blog not an article.
428/Lisa. You are right. We are entitled to our opinions that what makes living in America so great. Everyone does not need to agree with what we say but it's our right to say them. I don't like what the KKK has so say but they are entitled to their opinions. No I'm comparing you to the KKK at all. I am making a point that we can all say what we want.
422/RRR: Great post, thank you. Well, we know how he feels about it…many of the same issues as have been brought up here.
paul, joe
do you ever wonder how often we have been unofficially quoted here?
not saying spencer used us a source….its just sometimes odd as some of the things I read cover this blog like an outline.
joe is this what you were getting at with mentioning the oregonian in your above post?
434- His comments are from him…However what you all comment on here is from what "research" you all have done…..
(429) Lisa sorry I concur with Paul's request about hitting the return button. Your posts are typically long and although very worthwhile do make the reading of the rest entries somewhat tedious at times.
I would suggest you just let the word wrap features of the edit window do its thing and just hit return at the end of paragraphs.
I also think a lot of us had higher expectations regarding the GR. We need more information and until we have all the reports all we are going to be able to do is speculate. I haven't posted much because I am still waiting for concrete information that can lead to answers.
436. I'm not sure I follow you….
(431) We should be talking to Spencer as well. I hope he makes a post here some day. We could really use his input for our ideas.
438- He may sound similar because we are all reading the same info to make statments like that…..He may be reading ALL the same blogs and articles and so forth out on the net as we are and has drawn his own conclusion from those and from living the search himself…..
WHERE AS what we have posted on here we have ALSO gathered from info on the web and so forth….
Any clearer??
spencers letter certainly was well written, I wonder what his future plans are, as he seems to really be focusing on doing something, and he sure seems to have wealth to back it up.
437/Glenn: Thank you Glenn.
431/Joe – I think it is very telling that RRR was the first to put up the Washington Post link. It speaks well to her desire for transparency and an open and honest forum, shows a lot of class and character.
428/Nancy: I am not aware of an FM/AM channel in that corridor like that, but many of the Saab's I have been in have WB/Weather Band on their radios and I am relatively sure it is active down there. RRR or Joe may be able to verify or disput e that and, of course, it is possible their Saab did NOT have WB.
440 yes, I thought you meant that but wasn't sure. However, in our beginnings here….it seemed like that first very critical article from the oregonian was fueled by us….just specualtion and wondering if anyone else had wondered about this.
437- I will try to not to hit the return button. I some of my longer posts seem longer because of that and I like to use spacing. I was an English Major, and I write poetry. I think now I naturally prefer paragraphs that are shorter in width. To me, they are easier to read than big wide blocks that go on, and on, with no spacing.
But please, remember what the real priorities are of these situation. Please remember what's really important.
And by all means, don't read my posts if you don't want to.
RRR. Is there anything that the searchers from Mt Hood learned from the Kim search from you guys? I'd be interested in knowing. You may have alredy discussed this and if you have I hope you don't mind doing it again.
444- typo – "I think some of my longer posts…"
445- I personally haven't heard anything….I am sure there are some things they have learned there are always things we learn from OTHER searches that we can apply in our line of work
447- I have to say though with all the media coverage I am sure they learned to handle themselves BETTER with media then we did…I have not HEARD that just a speculation…Also I have NEVER heard of PINGS used as much as we have in the last month…AGAIN ALL SPECULATION
443/Mapper – I have wondered that too.
439/Mapper – Yes, this is important…I think it is good to reiterate a few things about Josephine County, it is – relatively – sparsely populated. It has limited financial resources. A search of this scale and complexity just does not happen very often down there. The financial resources to do things they would probably like to do regarding SAR may not exist. A resource like James' father could make possible changes that might not occur otherwise.
448/RRR – The speculation makes sense. I had never heard of pings before but they were used quite a bit and all over the news. Thx for the info.
450 – agree. not sure of spencers intentions, but agree that is worth reiterating.
448. makes sense to me too
I would still like to know whose responsibility it was to flip those signs over that said "Road IS closed" on the back of them (the 4 signs that say "Road May be closed by snow"). I would also like to know when, in general, they are flipped over…is it driven by the calendar ?; is it driven by snow on Bear Camp summit?; is there a defined criteria? That is a crucial element in my mind, and one that readily could have saved a life. It is neither gray nor subject to Oregonian interpretation or manipulation – you can see it in the photos on photobucket.
who were the aviation authorities for this SAR operation?
448/RRR: I think it is fair to say they HAVE had much more media experience PRIOR to the recent Hood tragedy. Mt. Hood Search and Rescue is in the news in Portland on a semi-regular basis. Due to it being one of the most popular climbing Mtns. in the U.S., folks get lost up there all the time. It speaks to the respective population densities, too, that they would have far more experience in handling the media than you.
MattMan- Could you email me please….email@example.com
Now I feel uncomfortable, like I can't be myself, so I will have to go… bye
457- Ok that is a little ridiculous….That is what I was talking about, we want to hear imput good or bad….
457/Lisa. Don't go, I want to hear your comments. I don't care if folks don't like how you format your blog – who gives a rip as long as you get the info out. Stay and speak your mind.
very well put. there is some REALLY great writing going on here the past day or so! I keep saying that. I agree with you very much, about the multiple issues at every level….and that communication flow is a very good place to focus energy.
that includes you lisa, now get back here.
457/Lisa: I think that is a complete and startling over-reaction to my post 424, as was your response in 429.
From Mr. Kims's article: aviation authorities opened search area air space up to media – what kind of lunacy is that?
Man, oh, man.
I think Spencer Kim was writing from his own experience and opinion, I think the fact that we've hit so much of the flaws he mentioned is our quest for the truth and facts & the back & forth, correcting this or that, clarifing, all the input to get to facts.
yes, the aviation/media thing. I think i was too stunned by that tidbit to process the information as of yet. lunacy, good word. though not an area I know much about (airspace) will listen with interest to anything more we hear about this!
Wow, you all have been busy since I finally fell asleep last night. So good morning!
422 – RRR, thank you for that link to Spencer Kim's article. Hopefully he will be able to make some changes since he definitely seems like a man with some influence.
428 – Nancy, I think the radio channel in the area has been suggested since this tragedy, but I don't think it exists. It is a good idea, though. Your experience with the media makes sense – and that's why I think it is important not to treat much as absolute gospel.
434, 443 etc – Yes, I've wondered about that, too, how often things are read here by the media. Interesting!
It looks like some of the numbers up above are off by one when people referenced? (like 417 & 418 / 427 & 423 – can clearly tell what's being referenced, but the post number is one off?) Anyway, it seems to have fixed itself. Just one of those curiosities.
Now that I'm almost caught up (of course there probably have been more posts while typing this), I getting some coffee and then going to wait to pounce on the mailman who may have the police report for me to scan for you fine folks. Likely Monday, but sometimes mail is fast.
(444) I love your posts!!!! I just think it is easer to read the way you are doing it now. Thanks otherwise it looks like your trying to dominate the comments.
Thanks for trying to accomodate. I understand your English major side, my wife is the same way and I try to be however in the world of email, texting, and blogging all of the formalities of proper English writing unfortunately take a second seat including grammer and spelling.
You should see how tough I am with our children and their mis-use of the language during instant messaging. My 11 year old says but it I can words with less characters – yeah that worked until I had her explain KOOL instead of Cool. But anyway…I think you know what I mean.
465 – "I getting some coffee" ?!?! Clearly I need some.
your right…I just checked and in the last few minutes (or is it hours, man i have been sitting here too long but am enjoying sitting here after a long week!) the post numbers have changed and I dont know why.
thanks for taking on the scanning, your so nice to us.
Fool's Gold at 146) said: I . . . question just WHY that military style search did not take place? It appears to me to be an ANG pissing contest about 'we fly in airspace that we own and don't share it with privately chartered helicopters'. The mission seems to have been scheduled but not flown. SOMETHING happened. And you seem upset if I point the inquiry at the ANG.
Let's take the example of a squad of police officers responding to an emergency. Do these officers open the scene to any civilian who wants to wander in and help? No, they don't. Instead, they secure the area and exclude anyone who didn't belong there. Otherwise they simply couldn't do their job.
Same thing here – when you call in the military, you get a full-scale, no-nonsense, highly-trained, experienced, and fully-focused response. Here, the State of Oregon was prepared to send a Blackhawk helicopter with four sets of eyes over the search areas soon as 12:30 p.m. on Saturday. As we know, that didn't happen. But what you propose would be unsafe and detract fromthe search and, without air traffic control, completely unworkable.
Lisa, I too LIKE your posts and don't want you to leave. There are a lot of post on here and scrolling back & forth, when you post a long post, it can double and sometimes triple the scrolling just to read it. Especially when I'm on the laptop which only has a 15 in. screen.
OK, now you can correct me for all of my grammar & typo's, OK? I make a lot. Please don't be upset.
467/Joe Duck – Good point. I hope the OSSA folks were able to interview the reporters. I doubt the media will report that they interferred. If you watch NewsWatch on the Fox channel, they point out weekly some media bias and media not correcting their mistkes. But until I know the facts I will remain open minded but a bit skeptical.
467- joe, thats why I asked who the aviation authorities were. I am wondering who (which agency) was in charge of the air search.
(467) Yes that is blowing my mind. Not surprised The Oregonian would miss it…it could imply media had a part in the failure of finding James Kim alive. How about that one for a twist?
I think it is absurd that a decision was made to allow media into the airspace and limited rescue personnel from doing their jobs. That is one problem with the media…the whole paparazzi element they seem to thrive upon!
I think the Lunch Bell rang….Or nap time…
Barnadad at 148) said) It is strange that Oregon NG assets sat for 72 hours. That part I don't understand at all.
Simply put, the Oregon Air National Guard search was activated by the Curry County Sheriff at 9:00 a.m. on Friday, December 1, when he asked Oregon Emergency Management for an air search of Bear Camp Road. As we know, this air search was delayed until late Friday afternoon for safety reasons. Early Saturday morning, December 2, Curry County ended their search and the Oregon Army National Guard's Curry County Blackhawk mission was officially over.
Although the helicopter crew waited in Eugene on Saturday morning for a call from Josephine County, they gave up and returned to Salem and stood down. Both Oregon Emergency Management and the Oregon Army National Guard monitored the search throughout Saturday afternoon and evening, all day Sunday, and much of Monday. At 2:44 p.m. on Monday afternoon, December 4, Douglas County asked for a helicopter with specialized radar for night operations. This helicopter flew on Monday evening and again on Tuesday evening and was released on Wednesday afternoon when James Kim was found. Of course, this Douglas County mission was an entirely different mission than the Friday afternoon mission at the request of the Curry County Sheriff.
Bottom line: The Oregon Army National Guard was prepared to fly a Blackhawk helicopter over the search area on Saturday, Sunday, and/or Monday morning. They did not fly because Josephine County never asked them to.
(476) One of my biggest questions…
467/Joe: That is the first time I have heard that before today, that media potentially interfered with official efforts. An ironic twist to be sure if true.
Kip at 214) said: It would seem to me Spencer Kim may have taken action only after realizing that the leadership / coordination of the SAR effort was in disarray and that time was very fast running out for his son.
The Governors Report points to a different conclusion. At 5:23 p.m. on Thursday, November 30, the Oregon State Police sent a teletype message to other police agencies alerting them to look for the Kim family. By 10:00 a.m. the next morning, the Curry County Sheriff had determined that the Kim Family might be stranded along Bear Camp Road and had asked the State of Oregon for an air search.
The State of Oregon quickly swung into action and within 2 hours it was ready to launch a sophisticated Blackhawk helicopter with a trained and experienced crew of 4. Had the State of Oregon gone ahead with its plan, the Blackhawk crew might have spent as much as 3 hours covering the 34 miles between Galice and Agness. Because the weather was clear and because James Kim burned his last four tires on that afternoon, it would appear that this mission had a high chance for success.
I submit that the Oregon SAR effort was going very well until Mr. Spencer Kim decided to bypass the State of Oregon and launch his own search. The CuCo Sheriff said that Mr. Spencer Kim was trying to influence Curry County operations and we know that Carson Helicopters flew over the Sheriff's objections. We know that the Carson Helicopter operations prevented the State of Oregon form launching its search mission.
From that point that Mr. Kim became involved in the Curry County swearch, the assets and efforts of the Oregon Army National Guard and Oregon Emergency Management were squandered. And we should note that these events took place long before Josephine County SAR ever became involved.
Well, if the NG helicopter crew was simply standing around waiting for a call from Josephine County I would suggest that someone remind them that telephones make outgoing calls too and such things can be confirmed rather than assumed.
453 – I'd bet the signs are turned to reveal ROAD CLOSED only when the road is closed by a land/rock slide.
466 – I had her explain KOOL instead of Cool. Kewl, Glenn 🙂
482- Then if 34.4.36 has a current ROCK slide on it then why aren't they turned IT IS BLOCKED……
Its a rock slide not snow but blocked is blocked
482 -483 – 484 I'm confused 😦
The road 34.8.36 (the begining of BC) CURRENTLY have a rock slide on it making it IMPASSABLE…The signs COULD be flipped since the road is IMPASSABLE right now, even though the signs say "May be blocked by snow drifts" and "IS blocked by snow drifts"….Blocked is blocked…..The signs STILL say "May Be blocked"….
Any clearer??? 🙂
485- This goes back a few pages to a topic Maggie and I discussed. The signs – the 4 signs that say "Road May BE blocked by snow X miles ahead" hava a different message on the back of them. The signs can be flipped over when the road is closed to read "The road IS CLOSED"…I will check the photos and put up the exact wording.
484 – thanks, Paul
My apologies, the sign does NOT say closed, but says IS BLOCKED on the back side of it, check this picture and note the caption that the photographer put at the top" "back of ALL MAY be blocked signs"
Hi Gayle! 🙂
The point RRR is trying to make is, those 4 signs STILL are not flipped over despite the fact that the road is blocked by 1. a slide and 2. snow drifts at the summit. I guess one could read into that that someone is still not on top of this very critical issue despite the loss of one life and all the attendant media attention. RRR, correct me if I am wrong on this please ?
489 – In other words, right now drivers are still seeing MAY be blocked. Since there are rock slides now, the sign should be flipped because the back side of the signs say IS blocked.
So I really, really wonder why they are not? Especially after all this attention – wow.
Sounds good to me
491/ – Which, given ALL that has happened, is nothing short of astounding IMHO.
492 – Or at least we know the signs weren't flipped as of the day the pictures were taken just a few days ago. Maybe the sign fairy has flipped them since then?
490 – Hi Maggie ! 🙂
491 – My bad, as well.
Have we ever been able to find out WHO is responsible for flipping the &*#$ signs? I'm all agitated about this again. And I sense I'm not the only one.
Am all but certain an earlier post by a local had indicated that, even when James & Kati headed up the road on that fateful night, that – had they stayed on BC, (which we STILL don't know for sure), they never would have made the summit because – even then – snow blocked the road…which begs the question I have belabored too much – why were the signs not flipped THEN.
495- NO sign fairy has flipped them…I only know that cause I came into town YESTERDAY (1-5-7) and they are NOT flipped
499 – This is ridiculous! WHO is supposed to flip them? I'd love to send them an email with my thoughts…
497. 500.
Is this Chicago Maggie!? hahaha. sorry, couldn't help it.
501..oh, I'm using Chicago as an adjective. The Inland North Maggie….
I don't understand why the Kims did not turn around when they started to hit snow before it got so bad. Am I missing something? I can't imagine what they went through and hope to never find out. I just keep thinking that if it were me, I would have turned around before I got stuck and gone back the other way.
sorry. anyway. about those signs. well first of all I was glad to see they have another side. Totally refutes claims that they were good enough to begin with (pac always trying to drive the point home that "may" was strong enough language)
this is disturbing R3. I wonder why…
Sorry everyone that I have harped on the signs so/too much. It's just so frustrating to me because THEY ARE THERE…this isn't a case of inadequate signage, or non-existent signage, or missing signage…these are signs that ARE there, that – IF REVERSED – very possibly would have resulted in a totally different outcome. I, personally, could not fathom the Kims driving by 4 separate signs that say "Road IS blocked" and continuing on their way.
502 – Hehehehe, mapper!
Anyone curious, on my blog I posted a thing about accents that is amazingly accurate.
[492] – #85, Page 2 — Comment by Kip | December 18, 2006 …
"I wonder if any changes in the confusing signage at the NF 23 / BLM 34-8-36 junction have been made, YET?
Would seem an imperative, simple, common sense remedial matter but I wouldn't be surprised if it remains now as before."
Hi everyone – I am just stopping by for a minute and wanted to thank everyone who said nice things. I think I just need a break. I did get kind of worked up, and it all has to do with my pain about this story.
As far as the English Major/not hitting return stuff goes, I will just try to get used to it. It's a weird feeling for an English Major to not have control of where a line ends. It's like I have to learn to just let go… And it's weird for me to type in this little box. Before I was just filling it and hitting return at the end. I just wasn't used to the whole comment box thing.
As far as typos go – no one elses' typos ever bother me!
The only typos that 'get' me are mine! And here, because
there is no editing, I have had to learn to 'Surrender to the Typos'!
I was always more of a creative English Major than a Grammar
Junkie anyway, and with literature and poetry there is a lot
of creative license allowed. But for the record, I can say I won 1/2 of a Scholarship Award one year for "English Major of them Year", at my little Quaker College.
It was a shocker. Because I wasn't trying for it at all – I didn't even know it existed. I just loved my work. I was actually sick in bed for the award's ceremony. This one professor kept calling me and asking me if I was going to it, and telling me I should, and I couldn't figure out why.
It was one of those – I am in a dream? moments. It felt good that it was split with another girl because otherwise I think I would have felt like too much.
I am mostly going to be taking a break. But I may have to comment on something informational before I go! I'll have to
get 'refreshed' and take a looksy!
Just a little clarification-
Ok YES there is snow on FS23 right now and the sign is for FS23…….THe sign STILL says "May be blocked"
HOWEVER the rock slide IS on 34.8.36 BEFORE it actually turns into FS23 so TECHNICALLY you can STILL take the Peavine Route to get to FS23 BUT I am willing to betcha money that it is BLOCKED with snow especially after the rain we have had in the last couple of days…..
508- There's a good typo for you! "English Major of them
Year!" Oh!
506. well it was the implied swear words too 🙂 When I was working in california I found people to be so….well…not so straightforward. hahaha. and your usually so well behaved! its like my mom, when she gets mad her southern accent comes out. maybe your inner chicagoan comes out when your upset?
508- Also typo! " It felt like it would have been too
Lisa! I'm glad you came back, and I had wondered if you were an english major.
embrace the typos. Yes, sometimes I see what I have typed and thought, wow I sound stupid. But I know I can spell, and the point gets made, whatever.
Its fun, we get to come up with fun words like assitance, or assitant 🙂
(480) Brenda I wonder how much was turf battle with Curry County, we may never know but my experience tells me that people would react in a way to reduce resources to convince the interfering civ to back off. Pure speculation but it would be nice to know how much of that goes on with the personalities involved.
511 – I almost hate to admit it, but when I'm not on here, I have a bit of a trucker's mouth. I'm just careful when and where 🙂 But, yes, that was me being… straightforward!
513 – Mapper, what are you implying about English majors? Be careful… I'm one, too 🙂
Now I wish I hadn't said that!
(497) Do you think they need some assitance with the signs?
518 – There's already plenty of assitance with the signs – that's the problem 🙂 Assitantly left as is, or I mean, as may be.
Ick!!! I love Joe Duck!
518 – I think we need some accountability on the signs. What is the point of having stronger wording on the back if nobody is responsible for turning them around, which seems to be the case.
Maggie! funny thing because I wondered the same about you (the english major thing, not the truckers mouth). Actually most people here have a way with words.
Glenn, I think maggie and lisa could provide some assitance with the wording of the signs. perhaps?
520 – If you were to go back to the time when *the* Oregonian article hit, and before there was any murmur of another side, many of us did say the same things based only on what we thought we "knew."
522 – So English major is a good thing, right? I'd gladly lend my assitance to the bloody signs – first I'd flip them while I worked on "ominous" wording. I still want to know WHO is supposed to have flipped them and WHY they haven't been!
516- I thought you probably were Maggie! You seem a bit
the hardcore grammarian!
I wouldn't be surprised if Madeleine is too…
And there's probably more! 🙂
525 – I don't no nothin' 'bout that there grammir thing but i like to write good.
(523) Yes I think you would find similar threads in many places around the same time.
I think over here we have tended to open-minded and this thread has lasted longer. I wouldn't be surprised if a new thread started over there some people would have the same opinions still and others would be like most here.
Keep in mind we still don't have a lot of answers to many of the questions we have had from the beginning. I think it is natural for people to have the reactions many of us have had especially with dealing with such an emotionally charged story.
Who knows after we have all the data some of those questions we will re-appear and opinions may or may not change based on that. One key difference here I think at this point even people that made mistakes I think we would be more reasonable with our responses – afterall they are human too.
English major is good. I think paul would help you enforce the flippage of the signage.
So…is this an odot job? here you have the owner of the signs to deal with ….could it be blm?
Mail truck is here – pouncing mailman to see if police report has delivered.
527 – Glenn, very well put. Our minds have opened, and we are still here waiting for "truth."
And no police report today. I should get it on Monday and will scan/post by Tuesday night (Monday is the one night I have commitments…).
oK I am going to let the cat out of the bag…..The responsiblity of the SIGNS are Forrest Service…It is a couple of pages back JoCo posted it before her banning….
531/RRR – I have a comment for you and JoCo…if it IS true that you are being shadowed/followed to insure your silence, I cannot help but think, in a municipality with scarce resources, that those folks in the Crown Victorias could be utilizing their time in more productive ways (like catching robbers, stopping crime, patrolling neighborhoods). It floors me that they would pull people away from legitimate work to tail you two, and it has a bad smell about it as well.
(528) I didn't think a skull and crossbones required an English major to get right. 🙂
(527) Another point I think needs to be mentioned.
A big part of all this effort is to try to help improve these efforts however that may come about.
I think it is critical for any of us not to rush to judgment about anyone, James Kim, Kati, Spencer, Sara R, Mike W., Brian Anderson, etc…
If you look back at their histories (based on what we know) all of them look like hard working, decent people with decent track record. What all of these people need more than anything is our support! The more support we give, the more answers we will receive, the more answers we receive, the more conceivably we can accomplish.
As I have said before. If you must judge a person, do not just a person by their mistake but judge them what they do after that mistake.
We need to be there for all of these people just like they would be there for us if we needed them.
Just my two cents…
503 wrote "I don't understand why the Kims did not turn around when they started to hit snow before it got so bad. Am I missing something?"
Well I can kinda answer that…. last year during spring break we were coming backto Eugene from little sis's in Bend, Just me and Grace our than 8 yr old. I decided to take the Albany route since I always drive by that exit, and the gate was open… Just curious. Well let me tell you it was one of my top 10 scary routes, but I don't ever think I thought of turning back, why?
1) Because it had been bad, and it I did't want to go thru it again on the way back down.
2) It could'nt get much worse
3) The gate was open, so it must be ok, I must just be a big wimp…
4) Trip check had road conditions so it must be ok….
I hit snow, Ice, Rocks, warning signs ect. Never saw another person, car or building,no cell signal, no one knew the change in route….
But I did find out where Tombstone Oregon is…. I think there is a reason why its called Tombstone. Always wondered where it was when I called Tripcheck for the road conditions.
(529) You shouldn't be broadcasting stuff like that about the mailman…would if their spouse were posting here 🙂
Sorry couldn't resist…just my late comeback from something I sure you said earlier…LOL.
520- I am glad we have a more respectful blog. Anonymity is not always a good thing.
(539) You can be more anonymous here then you can on Free Republic or Mail Tribune both required verified accounts before you can post.
Here you can be completely anonymous as witnessed with post (520).
534 – Hehehe, Joe. Please say hello to Mrs. Duck from all of us that keep you away.
535 – Report did not arrive today.
533 – Sure, skull and crossbones works. And I vote for no signs that require a flip.
536 – Very well put.
Wow. Well I can compleltey relate to your first 3 reasons and know about the 4th as an issue.
Pretty scary, the way you put it.
Has anyone ever driven on Needles Highway in South Dakota? I am wondering what bear camp road is like in relation to Needles Highway. It cant be that bad…but that is what I would compare it to from everyones desctiption.
Needles Highway is in a state park, and you have to pay to access it, and I do believe it is closed during parts of the year. (not sure).
531 – RRR, OK, so it's the forest service. That's a start. If I can figure out a decent email address for that area, I'm emailing a picture from the batch taken (unless someone tells me that's not OK, I'm assuming it is) and respectfully (without the &*^%$#) asking that they be flipped.
I would GUESS you could just got to the Forrest Service for our local section and start there….
537 – Laurie, I think many of us have made similar decisions not knowing enough to appreciate how bad things can really get. It's so easy for me to understand. Especially if it was just raining at first (hence Gayle's "rain here/snow there" sign idea). It's been said before, most of us just got lucky. And throughout, it looks like the Kim's just couldn't catch a break at any turn – except for Kati and girls being rescued.
533 – I think the skull and crossbones would catch some
people's eyes – but I don't think the state would do it –
it's too 'unregulated'.
Also, with pirate stuff being so popular – I don't think it
has the same 'fear-factor' it used to.
And I think it would egg kids and thrill-seekers on!
I'd be interested in hearing if RRR thinks it would work,
or if the state would consider it…
544 – I'm on it. I'm too mad to send the email this morning (OK, OK, it's afternoon – I just woke up a few hours ago), but after some more coffee and some calming music I'll email them. Have others already done the same on that issue, I wonder?
546- I never thought about the whole pirate theme of it but I can see the sense in that….Since our world is very DE-SENSITISED….since the media coverage of MANY things..
I dunno about the whole skull and cross bones as a marker….I kinda like the idea of if being a "memorial" route and possibly posting people who have died or lost their way…..I think it makes it more meaningful and maybe make people dig a little deeper and THINK before going up there…
okay my thoughts are mixed up, I know laurie is talking about a different road.
But I keep thinking about Needles highway, probably because it is the most recent road I have been on this treacherous. But, its really a tourist attraction. But, its part of a state park and you have to pay to drive it. Its very beutiful, and dangerous. But, I do believe its closed in winter. point is, it is managed and is definitley not a state highway or toll road.
but glenn, maybe your idea (toll road), that I think was slightly in jest, is really on the right track.
possibly? Not suggesting a state highway but a state park possibly? I dont know if this is possible in that area just throwing it out there (again). obviously charging people to drive it would help with maintenace of the road, sar funds, and, obviously keeping track of people driving there.
Maggie, I have some thoughts I would like to share as well and have been holding back until I get definite answers about jurisdictions, who is mapping who is repsonsible for exactly what, etc. I have a pretty good idea I know…but have been holding off on acting. I am trying to narrow down exactly what blm, usfs, usda, is supposed to be doing where and what it is they are to be providing.
let me say this….I saw the structures in those pictures that would hold a "you are here" map, complete with good encasing and a bullet hole. why not a map in there, just some stuff about geology or something….great, really, if your not trying to save your life.
I'm very tired, I should probably stop posting!
551.sorry, i meant to say….there is some stuff in there that was not a map…something not helpful.
548- I don't think anyone's asked for any signs to be flipped.
551- Mapper, I think that sounds like a good idea!
I was wondering have you/are you going to/or have you debated contacting ODOT about any map issues?
550. before people get upset with me for suggesting a toll road in a state I dont live in…
just an idea to get the minds working….maybe people who live in oregon would have a free pass…and much like the pass we use on the tollways here, you could have a little sticker in your car so it clocks you going through, and going out. or maybe you pay a low yearly fee, like $30 and you can travel all year that the road is open.
just ideas.
(549) I am for the memorial approach big time…we thought it was out of the question money wise…skull and crossbones to me was the next best thing.
I don't buy the pirate analogy…otherwise all the poison bottles in the world would be changed.
Whatever the solutions the wording CAN NOT BE TOURISM FRIENDLY. It needs to state the truth and level of danger that exists. May needs to change to will. Winter needs to be changed from October to whenever the snow is gone, etc…
A list attached to the bottom of the warning sign listing the people who have died or been lost would be helpful as well.
554- Just remember this is a VERY RURAL area….Power could be an issue…..Solar Power could also be and issue since it is a HIGH density area with trees
I havn't contacted anyone yet. I know they can read here if they want to. If I dont see any actions or response to concerns in the next couple of months I may bring it to them. I will probably at least get my thoughts together and post it to the suggestoins page soon.
I thought it was funny last night when someone asked me
if I was from the Oregonian…
I thought later I should have said, "Yes, I'm Lisa Sleeth."
557- I was just curious!
Early on, I don't remember if I read it here or on one of the techy sites, (or heck maybe I dreamed it, who know's it all runs togather….) 😉 Anyhow, someone was talking about coming up with a cell phone notification system, you would pay a fee to your cell phone provider and you could leave a message about what route you took ect, you would give it a time you would call the service back by, if you had not checked back in by your effective date, the auto dialer would start dialing 1st to your cell phone incase you just forgot to check in, than to tell whoever was on your list that you are overdue and the route you took ect…..
I think this is a GREAT idea! I don't know how many times I have changed my route or decided to do something else, spend the night in a hotel ect, but did'nt want to wake folks up, bug them ect. I even remember a couple of years ago, I had broken my leg and we decieded to stay home instead of traveling with the rest of the family to N. Washington, well New Years day we decided to just go for it, it was actually pretty fun, talking to everyone on the cell phone, they kept calling and saying how much they were missing us, I think I was even talking to my mom as we drove in and walked in the door, asking what the weather was like (cold and LOTS of snow) I can now just imagine if we had "disappeared" on the trip, everyone would have been looking in the Eugene area, with NO IDEA where we could possibly be…. Pretty scarry!
Anyhow, how could we get something like this going? Has anyone read anything aboutit? How hard would it be to do? Does this sound doable?
558- That was supposed to be a joke!
551 – Yes, whatever "useful information" was in the encased (survived that bullet hole!) structure shouldn't be too hard to either replace or supplement with a "you are here" map. Give folks a chance to undo what they've done and get out instead of die. So simple, so powerful/useful, and already halfway done.
555 – I agree completely. Give folks a chance to know not to even wind up at the structure above when it's not a safe time to even be there.
550+ – Even if an actual toll road itself couldn't realistically be done, there is much in that concept that might be adapted somehow and is worth some thought, I think.
560 – I love that idea! I can't remember seeing that exact one here as much as other ideas (but there's been a LOT of information over this many pages), but that's great because it doesn't even rely on cell service in places where it doesn't exist (another thing that would be so nice if it could be changed, but is a much huger issue…).
555- glenn, I can present your ideas along with the others when I call about changing the signs in general. The people I need to speak with will be back at work Monday.
Unfortunately I have the feeling that the more complicated
or involved the ideas are, the less likely they are to
be implemented.
Also, for a memorial, I think the families would have to
want it also/give permission, etc.?
Yes, agreed. get rid of that silly yellow thing they have in there. no wonder someone shot at it 🙂
and yes…I dont know about a toll road, your right I just wanted to bring up the concept again as my mind has wandered to the last treacherous road I was on, and it was very well managed in a way that was not disruptive to the local area.
maybe there is something valuable in this thought, and I dont know what it is exaclty….but lauries mention of the phone system is interesting.
and yes I think much of this has been posted here before…in some form or another. I remember joes suggestion about the pen and paper.
I'm all for low tech when low tech works, its the best option.
555/Can Not Be Tourism Friendly may be too strong, I am ambivalent on this…this road sees a lot of tourist traffic in the summer, late spring and early fall, when it is perfectly fine for that. Mostly it is rafters, fisherman, etc, but there are folks who use it to go to Gold Beach too. I would defer to the local consensus on this as tourism is a significant revenue source for them. But absolutely the potential winter dangers need to clearly and unequivocally communicated in whatever fashion works best.