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Does that matter? Yes, it does.
Bernier wants to be "number-one"— and he will be…so set Reimer free.
Does that matter? Yes, it does.
31 comments:
- InTimeFor62August 4, 2013 at 8:39 PM
I must say that you are making 'inroads' into my willful denial pertaining to Reimer and my desire to keep a young man and player that I'm 'rooting for'... it's very hard to ignore the "guy we inherited" line. I really don't want to think about it, but I guess you've helped me with the healthier 'acceptance model' that helps me when players I like actually depart the team.ReplyDelete
Perhaps you are mitigating the pain and empathy I will feel for James when 'that day comes'. If I start to accept it now, it will be easier to 'deal with' then. I may even start to see what the dispassionate management is trying to do.
I feel you helping me to 'pry open' my own eyes and I know that I've even thought of the Flames potential need for a good young goalie and my hope to acquire Monahan somehow.
I can't imagine that teams around the league didn't notice some of Reimer's sufficient and, at times, spectacular play (especially those that didn't make the playoffs and had time to watch the team that finally returned last year).
It all just seems more 'inevitable' as you emphasize the Leiweke line, Michael. I'll even thank you for your efforts as you work through your own sense of the situation, while hoping for the best for a fine young man, but I think we both know that we are be losing someone special on many levels when that day comes.Replies
I agree that Reimer has been a special individual for the Leafs, InTimeFor62. He has brought integrity and character to the way he handles himself. I'd like the organization to do right by him, and help themselves at the same time...Delete
I couldn't agree more with your entire post. It is clear that the management team at MLSE wants Bernier to be the guy. I haven't seen enough of Bernier to think that he is going to be better than Reimer long term. I have no idea how the management of the Leafs can be sure that they are backing the right guy here. Reimer has played more often and been better statistically. I hope James does great wherever he goes, just not as well as Bernier does in Toronto. Though I wouldn't be surprised to see Reimer turn into another one that got away. Seems to be the Leafs method of operation, have a look at Boston and Tuukka Rask, for all the proof you need.Replies
The Leafs certainly haven't had good luck (if we can attribute any of it to "luck") the past decade with most of the goaltenders they have acquired, signed or drafted. That's not to say Bernier won't have success. He may well. I just find it interesting that the goalie they have drafted and developed and in a sense is 'home-grown' is being over-shadowed already by the newcomer...thanks Jim.Delete
I think you might be overestimating Bernier's ability to come in and be a number one.ReplyDelete
Bernier has never been a number one before. He only has 62 NHL games and 29 wins.
Bernier might get lit up behind a Leafs defense that isn't as good as the Kings defense.
Bernier might get injured early in the season and in comes Reimer with another .924 and wins 2/3 of his games, which is what he did last year.
I could easily see Bernier not quite making it as a franchise goaltender, but being good for 30-40 games a year, in which case you need Reimer. It might even work out well.
Now is not the time to worry about goaltender trades.
We will just have to watch and see how this unfolds.
You may be right, DP- I guess I see this one turning out differently.ReplyDelete
I'm quite convinced it will fall to Bernier, because that's how the cards have been lined up. But as you say, we'll see how things unfold!
Maybe it's Pollyanna O'Malley here, but I don't share your pessimism on this. I take management at their word: our two goalies are going to fight it out, and one of them's going to be #1 while the other will be a strong backup. I have no problem with that - may the best man win! The real question for me is: have we upgraded from Reimer/Scrivens? A lot of hockey people seem to think so. I won't be convinced until I see them play.ReplyDelete
I don't see the upside in trading Reimer for a forward and lesser goalie, say, and he certainly won't bring us that #1 center everyone thinks we need unless he's packaged with someone else. But still - that will leave us weaker at the key position come playoff time.
Like you, Michael, I like James. I think his game really improved this year, and there's no reason to think he won't continue that trend. He almost stole us the Boston series - exactly what we've been saying a goalie has to be able to do. I'm looking forward to seeing how our new tandem develops.Replies
I have a hard time believing it will be a true competition, Gerund O', but we'll see, as DP said above, how this all plays out!Delete
- KiwiLeafAugust 5, 2013 at 12:53 AM
The thing that I find most frustrating about all this is the seeming absence of prioritisation it betrays in how the front office has gone about things this summer.ReplyDelete
I mean, Bernier has been tagged as a potential star for a while and maybe that's how things will turn out. Maybe Reimer will continue to improve as well and end up being a franchise goalie for a decade. The point isn't which of them is the better goalie now or even who will be the better goalie in two years time which is, by definition, speculation. The point is, Reimer was good enough that we should have been worrying about other things first.
Frattin was probably our best trade bait (seeing as no one seemed to want Liles or Grabovski) and we spent him on a move that I would have put as our third biggest priority. Scrivens going in the deal as well means that when they inevitably do realise they can't keep both Reimer and Bernier without one of them going troppo, we have to get another goalie back in the trade which vastly reduces their potential trading partners.
It's the lack of foresight, the carelessness and the seeming absence of strategy which annoys me about this deal.
I don't necessarily believe the Leafs owe Reimer anything beyond the terms of his existing contract. I am disappointed on his behalf that his play last year didn't earn him the respect with the front office that it deserved.Replies
Response below, KiwiLeaf...Delete
- Pete CamAugust 5, 2013 at 6:48 AM
I feel that "if it isn't broke, don't try and fix it" pertains to the Leaf goaltending situation. I have felt from the beginning that this move was all on Leiweke and that Nonis was just being a good soldier in orchestrating the trade. If this is true it does not bode well for the future.ReplyDelete
I could understand this better if this were a huge or even noticeable upgrade but Bernier's on ice credentials are closer to those of Scrivens rather than those of Reimer. They have, in effect, created a controversy where one wasn't war rented and at the expense of several valuable assets.
I have been a Reimer backer from their Leaf onset. It is with sadness and some anger that I witness the disrespect being shown to him by an outsider. I am sick and tired of seeing good homegrown talent sent on to prosper elsewhere.Replies
Exactly, Pete Cam. This, for me, is like creating a quarterback controversy in football, and that is never- and I mean never - a good thing in the NFL. It usually is a team's downfall.Delete
If Bernier becomes a legitimate star, maybe we'll feel differently in a few years. But I see Reimer having similar potential.
- portuguese leafAugust 5, 2013 at 8:13 AM
Unless we trade Reimer for some real help I don't see this ending well. I like the idea of going with the hot guy, but I also realize it not always goes as planned. Maybe we can trade Reimer for Matt Frattin (i hear the Kings have him as a top six guy). We should be able to get a good or very good player in a swap, but we'll see.ReplyDelete
There is also the other side of Reimer leaving the Leafs. Who will be backup? Apart from Reimer and Scrivens, did we have NHL ready goaltenders down on the farm? Here's something that could sound stupid: would Tim Thomas be awfull or just what the doctor ordered?Replies
A lot of teams seem to have passed on Tim Thomas, portuguese leaf. It could be money, it could be his age (especially after having taken a full year off) or it could be they now see him as a guy who might be disruptive. He was just about the best goalie in hockey a few years ago. Whether he would be willing to be a back-up, I don't know.Delete
All fair points, KiwiLeaf. You're not alone, I sense, in thinking the Leafs may have added solid depth in goal, but they have yet to address other rosters issues. Thanks for posting.ReplyDelete
First of all James is a good goalie make no mistake. He deserves a chance to prove he can be a consistent number one guy. If James is destined to no longer be a TML it is incumbent upon management to get as much for him as possible.ReplyDelete
And there lies the challenge. With all due respect to your opinion Michael, how many NHL exec types believe that a guy who has never played more than 37 games in a season is a surefire consistent number one guy, a "a front-line, top-10 NHL goalie"? Likely not many. A few teams were lining up to trade for such a guy they perceived to be that sort, in Bernier, yet nobody has been beating down doors at the ACC to inquire about James since the Bernier deal.
If Leaf management take the position that with moving Reimer they are trading a consistent number one goalie they will find themselves alone at the dance. So their challenge seems to be to find a way to up the value of Reimer while transitioning to Bernier.
One can argue that there are always teams looking for a number one guy. Yes there are, but such teams are looking for real, proven number one guys not guys who Leafs fans believe are number ones. Some team will be willing to "take a flyer" on James and may very well be rewarded for their faith but when it comes to the Leafs moving him they have to accept he is not a proven consistent number one. To earn those chops, like any goalie, he needs three or so quality seasons of 55 + games.
He is not untradeable but even if he puts in only 30 games this year and it is quality stuff his value will go up. He is playing in his final contract year so in 10 months times he will be able to see what the whole league values him at.
I would prefer if they went with both goalies this year. Youth is best served by depth. Two young guys with potential as opposed to one young guy and no back up. If Reimer is legit (I believe he is) he can improve his perceived value by doing well and keeping up a team first attitude while getting 30 starts.
My advise to Leaf fans ; be realistic. If Reimer is traded do not expect the haul trading a proven consistent number one guy would bring in. I mean 37 games was his busiest year? This past year was his best and it lasted only 3 + months. My advise to Leaf management; go with these two for the full season. More time is needed to pass the best judgement and going with an unproven back-up is no way to pursue a playoff spot. Remember it is a crowded, busy schedule this year. You need a proven back up who can step in 30 times. Goaltending depth is invaluable during an Olympic year. We've got it. I like it. Let's use it.Replies
Appreciate hearing your perspective, as always, Bmaximus. Thanks for visiting.Delete
We'll hold on to both of them for the foreseeable future and here's why. This was an excellent deal for the Leafs. We took advantage of the fact that LA needed to move Bernier, who has a much higher ceiling than Frattin or Scrivens (who knows about that 2nd rounder). Regardless of whether or not management is planning on playing Bernier more often, worst case scenario he doesn't pan out and we have Reimer to fall back on, who like you said is a solid #1. On the flip side, and I'd argue just as likely, they could both continue to improve to the point where they establish themselves as one of the best tandems in the league. If/when this happens, we ship the relatively less effective goalie off to a team with a hole in net for the big, young, scoring centre we've been missing for years. In sum, this trade could end up being Frattin, Scrivens and a 2nd for our next franchise centreman. That's why we'll keep both.ReplyDeleteReplies
I respect your point of view, Randers but I just have a difficult time seeing how two young, first-string goalies will work well together. On paper it's great, but once the season begins, I'll be skeptical. Bernier did not come here to be a back-up, so we'll see how much Reimer plays. If he doesn't play enough, what he will be worth on the trade market? This may be his peak value, right now.Delete
Michael, great read but I disagree here for two reasons.ReplyDelete
First, if you read MLHS' interview with Greg Cronin, you'll know the Leafs base their game around attacking+defending the home plate area. As a result, the Leafs were excellent in suppressing scoring chances against this past season, despite being out-possessed. A caveat to this though is that the goalie playing still needs to have the ability to make the big save, and Scrivens' seemed unable, evidenced by his .805 save percentage when facing shots within the home plate area versus Reimer's much more adequate if not above-average 0.897. This could have been a motive to upgrading the second goalie position, and I haven't checked them out yet, but I'm sure that Bernier's numbers when facing prime scoring chances are adequate enough to warrant the sacrifice in assets for the upgrade in net.
Secondly, with Bernier, the Leafs now have a 1A-1B tandem in net which is a system that Carlyle employed during his time with the Ducks. During Carlyle's tenure in Anaheim, a goalie never played more than 44 games in one season, a testament to how Randy likes keeping his goalies fresh. Also, this isn't exactly hard to believe because if you compare the Leafs' lineup to the 2007 Ducks lineup, they are a ton striking similarities (the top-10, bottom-5 system). And if you remember correctly, the Ducks' had their own injury-prone butterfly goalie in Giguere back then when they added a young, exuberant Russian tender by the name of Bryzgalov.
So, I doubt this was a fact of Nonis & co. being dissatisfied with Reimer's performance last season or his long term ability, but rather the discontent with Scrivens' admittedly lacklustre production + the caution of Reimer getting injured again.
Just my 0.2. Great read as always Mike!
-Alex Mamalis
A very well-constructed post; good to hear from you, Alex. Thanks for chiming in!ReplyDelete
- Pete CamAugust 6, 2013 at 10:39 AM
Regardless of Bernier's ceiling (which is another word for unrealized potential) he has not yet produced a significant body of work at the NHL level. The sample size is too small to draw any meaningful statistical conclusions. He may become an excellent number one goalie or he may flop. It is all conjecture at this point.ReplyDelete
This trade might have been easily defensible in the pre-cap era but at this point in time, with a shrinking cap, prudent resource allocation is vital. Prior to the trade the Leafs had two goalies who provided solid play with a cap hit of $2,350,000 combined (Reimer - $1,800,000 and Scrivens $550,000). Now Bernier has added $2,850,000 to the cap hit ($500,000 in cap space was included in the trade) while the Leafs are scrambling to find cap space to sign two vital players.
Regardless of how Bernier turns out (and I hope he is a lights out goaltender) the reality is that vital cap space was spent on an area that was already a strength.Replies
It feels like we're in the minority on this one, Pete!Delete
- apollo678August 6, 2013 at 12:00 PM
I think that you being a "Reimer Guy" has clouded your judgement.ReplyDelete
First of all, Leiweke coming on board and the trade for Bernier may have nothing to do with each other. It has been reported that Nonis had been targeting Bernier from the moment that he replaced Burke.
Here is a quote from Nonis:
"We were close a couple times, but there was always something that kind of stopped the deal," said Nonis. "Most of it was in place months ago and we just found a time that was right for both sides."
So, if the trade had been completed a few months before Leiweke came on board would you still feel that Bernier is here just because he is "Leiweke's guy"?
Secondly, it seems like you are discounting the tandem idea before you have even seen it in action. Carlyle has a track record with tandems...perhaps that is just the way he likes to roll and he probably did not feel that Scrivens was a strong enough goaltender to be able to succeed in a tandem situation. You have to think that with Carlyle in Anaheim and Bernier in LA that Carlyle probably has a pretty good idea of what Bernier is capable of.
If Tortorella was the coach here then I would be far more inclined to say that the Leafs were looking for some individual to play the vast majority of the games right away. In our case I think that both will get ample opportunity and since both are young, developing goalies without a track record of playing 65-70 games then perhaps this is the best way to develop both. And what is wrong with a little competition? Scrivens wasn't about to push Reimer and its not like we have any other young farmhand ready to do that either.
Thirdly, I think you are really downplaying Reimer's injury "issues". He has not played more than 37 games. I love Reimer but is it fair to expect that he will be able to play 65+ games next year? On what is that based? Would you bet your season on that? If you are thinking rationally you hope for the best but prepare for the worst. While I personally don't know a lot about Bernier I do get the sense that most people believe that if given a chance, Bernier has the skills and pedigree to be a star goalie. Scrivens on the other hand does not carry those same expectations. According to almost everyone a tandem of Reimer/Bernier has much more talent then a tandem of Reimer/Scrivens. From a pure talent viewpoint we have upgraded our goaltending.
Finally I believe the cost to acquire Bernier was not all that high. If you look at the trade in isolation it was a good trade for us. Critics discount the trade because they feel that it was not a necessary move to make...that our goaltending was fine they way it was. No one is critical of what we are getting or really up in arms over what we are giving up. Really, how could you be? I am a Frattin fan but come on. Bernier has a much greater chance of impacting our chances of winning than anything we gave up in that deal. Bernier at this point is the more attractive asset.
Now things may go south for us...Bernier and Reimer may not be able to share effectively. Frattin may go on and pot 30 goals. Etc.
But this is the middle of the summer, you have not even given this a chance to work and already you have Reimer traded away.
Lets see how things play out.
Lets focus on the positives. Lets dream about how much better defensively we will be in front of our tandem with a healthy Gardiner, a healthy Gunnar, a 22 min Phaneuf (instead of the scary 30 min Phaneuf), the addition of strong 2 way forwards like Bolland, Clarkson and hopefully Colborne (in place of a goon). Personally I like the way our team is looking (assuming that Franson and Kadri get signed...which I think will eventually happen. Subban signed a bridge deal work 2.8 - should Franson get more? I don't think so).
We have depth everywhere including goal. We can play any kind of game.
Lots of good points there, apollo678.Delete
I see things quite differently, but I've written here many times that summer is a time for hope! If Leaf fans want to believe what I think will be a potentially chaotic situation in goal will be a good thing, that's fair. (To your point about Leiweke, his comments, regardless of his actual involvement in the trade when it happened, make it clear he wants Bernier in goal...) Thanks apollo678.
Interesting take on this from Howard Berger when I tweeted him to ask whether he thinks Reimer would be on the trade block: 'Wouldn't think so. Stanley Cup teams usually have a starting-caliber backup. Leafs could definitely use both.'ReplyDelete
Of course, media hockey predictions, along with a nickel, can get you a cup of coffee(in the '50s), so take it for what it's worth.Replies
Thanks for posting, Sean. One of my points in all this is not that Bernier is not going to be a good goalie here, or that it's not a good idea to have two competent guys in your netminding picture. It's that having two guys the same age, etc is generally a bad idea unless the situation is managed exceptionally well. When I see how we have 'managed' our goalies over the past decade, I'm concerned...Delete
Very interesting take on the situation, and one that seems to be based more in reality than conjecture. For whatever reason, Leaf management has never seemed to embrace Reimer as "our guy". Most statements seemed to fall between lukewarm endorsement and outright displeasure - and that was pre Bernier acquisition. Without getting into a debate about Reimer's abilities, it seems neither Carlyle nor Nonis were sold.ReplyDelete
To that extent, I agree moving Reimer would be the logical next move. Nonis (and by extension Leiweke) needs to take ownership on the decision to bring in Bernier. The trade and contract extension say more than cliche words about an open competition. If a team, say the Islanders, looking for long term goaltending help were willing to take Liles in a package maybe freed cap space can be salvaged out of this. However this plays out, Reimer has been nothing if not class.
Finally, to the story's underlying theme. I too have a very bad taste in my mouth from Tim Leiweke in his short tenure. A Jerry Jones, Dan Snyder, yes even a Harold Ballard taste. While not the owner, I hope his powers don't overreach into the day-to-day hockey operations.Replies
You've well captured my thoughts (and much more succinctly!) on this subject, Randy, and also provided a your own (I think quite correct) perspective.Delete
I, too, believe what I wrote is not simply conjecture but a realistic assessment based on the tone of the comments made about Reimer over the years- and Leiweke's obvious lukewarm comments of a couple of weeks ago. As you properly note, management's endorsements of Reimer have always been lukewarm at best. A year ago, Burke essentially said they were fine with Reimer in goal- unless they found someone else.
The owners you mention too often made themselves the centre of attention and larger than the team. If Leiweke acts in this manner, this won't work. Thanks Randy.
- AnonymousAugust 14, 2013 at 9:57 AM
Outstanding post...the one factor in Reimers favor is the 18 bodies in front of him. They know what he can do...they see this stuff...and they will play for James. Ultimately Carlyle will go with the winning combination.ReplyDelete
Thanks Anon. Well said.ReplyDelete
If it is a level playing-field competition, Reimer can stake his claim- as can Bernier.


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Yoga is about living a more mindful and intentional life.
I started doing yoga in 2004, and the idea of living a more mindful and intentional life was partly the reason I got into it. I was certainly attracted by the physical side; from the outside, it looked a bit like gymnastics, and ever since kindergarten I had always wanted to be gymnastic star.
However, the body-mind connection I had heard so much about is what really brought me to that first class in the yoga studio. De-stress? Quiet the mind? Develop better awareness? I didn't know how we were going to do any of that, but it sounded good to me.
The first thing the teacher said in the first class was, "We'll start by taking a moment to set an intention for your practice." I drew a total blank. I had no idea what setting an intention meant. I intend to get better at yoga. I intend not to look like a fool in this class. I intend to pick up a latte on my way home. Clearly I didn't quite get it.
Over the following years, as I learned and grew in my yoga practice, I continually struggled with the basic concept of setting an intention. I would often throw something out there like, "I'm here to dedicate this hour to myself; "I'm here to escape my stressful life"; "My intention is to sweat"; usually not with a lot of thought behind it and always with a self-centered approach.
It wasn't until I attended my yoga teacher training with the inspiring Paul Dallaghan that I finally really got some value out of setting an intention for my practice. He didn't actually word it as setting an intention; and perhaps that's why it seemed less confusing for me. But every morning, before practice, we spent a few moments reflecting on three powerful categories, which I share with you below.
It's important to note that we didn't spend 10 minutes thinking about this stuff everyday (who has that kind of time in the real world anyways?); but two to three breaths per category, which is enough, especially if you're doing it every time.
Gratitude: Even in stressful or impossibly tough times, we are lucky to have something in our lives. These are the things that make life a little easier, a little more enjoyable and that make you a happier person. Take a few breaths to focus on the things, the people and the situations in your life that you are grateful for.
Forgiveness: Let's face it: none of us are perfect. We've wronged people, and people have wronged us. Its not always intentional and unfortunately, it's just the way the world works. Take a few breaths to reflect on the things you'd like to be forgiven for, and sending a few forgiving thoughts towards people who have wronged you. In short, this just means letting go. Holding onto bad feelings just doesn't do us any good.
Guidance: In life, we can't do it all alone. Sometimes we just need help. Reflecting on this helps us to realize that we need help (which is half the battle sometimes!) and makes us much more likely to look in the right places for help. Take a few breaths to think about what you need help with.
Reflecting on these three categories has become integral to my practice, and often forms the beginning or end of the sequence when I'm teaching. It links my yoga practice to the other important things in my life. It also reminds me to put things in perspective and gives a much deeper meaning to those few moments at the beginning or end of my yoga practice when I let go of the stress of my day and focus on what I came to do: my practice.


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A Focus on Fiber Crafts- We're Gearing up for a Go Red for Women Fashion Show & Luncheon
It may be a bit in the future but, it's not too soon to save the date: Sunday, April 21. In Sheep's Clothing, in cooperation with Dress Barn will be hosting a fashion show to benefit Go Red for Women's Heart Health at the Yankee Pedlar Inn. A trunk show of knitted fashions in shades of red will be provided from the book Knit Red, by Laura Zander. All the knits were created by top knitwear designers specifically for Stitch Red, a campaign to raise awareness of heart disease in women. It is important to realize that heart disease is the number one killer of women. Local models will be show casing the most current fashion trends that Torrington's Dress Barn has to offer. There will be local vendors as well as lots of heart health education readily available. Charlotte Hungerford will be on hand with blood pressure screenings as well as a speaker on heart health. The Yankee Pedlar will graciously open their lobby for the event along with a luncheon to be provided by Bogey's restaurant. There will be a silent auction, with items donated by local businesses. All proceeds from the event will go to benefit Go Red for Women. If all of these activities don't sound enticing enough, Susan St. James, a knitter herself, has kindly offered to be the Master of Ceremonies. It promises to be a wonderful event. I hope that you will choose to spend the afternoon with other like minded women and men to help raise money, and awareness of women's heart health. For more information about Go Red, or about heart health please go to: http://www.goredforwomen.org/ Tickets may be purchased for the event at In Sheep's Clothing Yarn Shop, 98 Main St, or by calling 860-482-3979. Requested donation is $25.
Virginia (Ginger) Balch knits, weaves and spins in all things "fibery" at her shop In Sheep's Clothing at 98 Main St. Torrington www.in-sheeps-clothing.com or phone 860-482-3979.


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Item Description
Concurrent Resolutions, Topeka Legislature, House and Senate [1858]
Author: Free State Legislature
Date: no date
These handwritten copies of two, slightly different, concurrent resolutions were passed by the House and the Senate of the Topeka Free-State Legislature, probably in 1858. They established the legitimacy of the state government under the Topeka Constitution, and "respectfully urge[d] the Territorial Legislature, now in session, at Lawrence, to take immediate steps for removing the present forms of a territorial government, so that the legitimate government of the people may become the only government in Kansas."
Location of Original: KSHS Call Number: History. Legislature, Resolutions and Journal, #614
Item Number: 100617 Number of images: 3
Keywords: Free state government; Free state legislature; Shawnee County, Kansas Territory; Topeka Constitution; Topeka Movement (see also Free state movement); Topeka, Kansas Territory
pg. 1
pg. 2
pg. 3


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DENVER—In a story Feb. 4 on a bill to encourage debate about evolution in schools, The Associated Press misquoted Joshua Youngkin from the Discovery Institute. Youngkin said the bill would "not take evolution out of schools, or put religion in, but actually increase the teaching of evolution and get people to really inquire about it and learn as much as possible."
A corrected version of the story is below:
Colo. bill promoting debates on evolution fails
GOP bill urging Colo. schools to promote debates on evolution, global warming, fails
By IVAN MORENO
Associated Press
DENVER (AP)—Democrats rejected a Republican lawmaker's idea Monday urging schools and colleges to create a friendly environment to discuss what he considers controversial science issues, a move that opponents feared would lead to debates about creationism and evolution.
The proposal called on public schools and colleges to create an environment for students to encourage scientific questioning on "controversial issues in science education." Rep. Stephen Humphrey, R-Severance, said he recognized the concerns from opponents that the bill would open debate on religious teachings, but he insisted that's not what his proposal would do.
"It's not something that could be used for someone to open up their scriptures and start teaching their version of how the world started," he said. "Only scientific information."
The Democratic-led House Education committee rejected the bill on a 7-6 vote.
The bill stated that teachers should allow debates that "respectfully explore scientific questions and learn about scientific evidence related to biological and chemical evolution, global warming and human cloning."
If the bill had passed, schools and colleges would be told of the law annually beginning with the 2013-14 school year. The bill would have urged schools to support discussions relating to evolution, global warming and other topics. But schools and colleges would not have been monitored for enforcement and there would be no penalties.
Denver Democrat Lois Court said she didn't see what the bill sought to accomplish.
"The point is that requiring science teachers to encourage creative, critical thinking and ask questions from all angles—it's what science teachers do. So why do we need this?" Court said.
The Colorado Alliance for Environmental Education, an organization for environmental educators, opposed the bill.
"This bill has the potential to kind of muddy the waters in terms of science education," said Katie Navin, executive director of the group.
Humphrey said his goal was to open up scientific debate. He said that sometimes students may feel afraid about speaking their minds in class about controversial matters.
"I've heard students tell me, and I've had the experience myself in the classroom," he said. "You know that the professor has a strong viewpoint one way or the other, and you might feel a little intimidated about discussing something or bringing up a point."
The bill originated from the Seattle-based Discovery Institute, a proponent of intelligent design.
"What this bill would do is not take evolution out of schools, or put religion in, but actually increase the teaching of evolution and get people to really inquire about it and learn as much as possible," said Joshua Youngkin, program officer for public policy and legal affairs for the group.
Montana lawmakers are also considering similar legislation this year. A bill there would protect "alternative viewpoints" during science class debates. Lawmakers have not voted on the bill yet.


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For this recipe, we prefer Thai Kitchen coconut milk (available at many supermarkets) because it has a higher coconut-cream content than other brands, giving the sauce and marinade a much thicker consistency. Other brands work fine but are thinner, so you'll have to use about half a can more than we call for here.
- Yield
- Makes 8 servings
- Active Time
- 1 hr
- Total Time
- 14 1/2 hr (includes marinating)
- 1/2 cup finely chopped shallots (2 large)
- 1/4 cup vegetable oil
- 2 large garlic cloves, minced
- 2 teaspoons minced peeled fresh ginger
- 2 tablespoons Thai red curry paste
- 2 (14-oz) cans unsweetened coconut milk
- 1 1/2 teaspoons packed light brown sugar
- 1 teaspoon salt
- 2 teaspoons Asian fish sauce
- 4 (1 1/4- to 1 1/2-lb) Cornish hens, halved lengthwise
- Garnish: fresh cilantro sprigs
- Cook shallots in oil in a wide 4- to 5-quart heavy pot over moderately low heat, stirring occasionally, until softened, 4 to 5 minutes. Add garlic and ginger and cook, stirring occasionally, 2 minutes. Add curry paste and cook, mashing paste to combine with oil and stirring constantly, 3 minutes (paste will begin sticking to bottom of pot). Add coconut milk, brown sugar, and salt and simmer, uncovered, stirring occasionally, until reduced to about 3 cups, 25 to 30 minutes. Remove from heat, then stir in fish sauce and cool to room temperature, stirring occasionally, about 30 minutes. Reserve 1 1/2 cups curry sauce (for serving) in a bowl and chill, covered.
- Trim and discard any excess fat from hens (to prevent flare-ups on grill), then rinse and pat dry. Coat hens well with remaining curry sauce in a large bowl, then divide hens between 2 large sealable plastic bags and seal bags, pressing out excess air. Marinate hens, chilled, at least 12 and up to 24 hours.
- Let hens stand at room temperature 30 minutes before grilling.
- Prepare grill for cooking over medium-hot charcoal (moderate heat for gas). (If using a charcoal grill, open vents on bottom of grill, then light charcoal. When Charcoal turns grayish white (about 15 minutes from lighting), hold your hand 5 inches above grill rack to determine heat for charcoal as follows: Hot: When you can hold your hand there for 1 to 2 seconds; Medium-hot: 3 to 4 seconds; Low: 5 to 6 seconds. If using a gas grill, preheat burners on high, covered, 10 minutes, then, if necessary, reduce to heat specified in recipe.)
- Remove hens from marinade, shaking off excess, and transfer to a large platter. Discard marinade. Season hens with salt, then grill, starting with skin sides down, covered only if using a gas grill, on lightly oiled grill rack, turning occasionally to prevent overbrowning, until cooked through, 25 to 30 minutes total.
- Heat reserved curry sauce in a small saucepan over moderate heat, stirring, until hot. Serve hens with curry sauce.
Cooks' note:
If you aren't able to grill outdoors, hens can be roasted in a lightly oiled large shallow baking pan (1 inch deep) in middle of a preheated 450°F oven, skin sides up and without turning, until cooked through, about 35 minutes. (If, after roasting hens, you prefer the skin slightly darker, broil them 4 to 5 inches from heat 1 to 2 minutes.)


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|Jonathan Hacker
So tell us, Jon, what do you do on the concept team?
I'm a software developer. I spend much of my time listening to people so I can understand what, exactly, we want to accomplish in a concept system. I then figure out how we can use software to achieve our goal. I also spend quite a bit of my time coding.
What do you like best about being on the concept team?
I like taking a big problem, coming up with a crazy solution that no one had thought of, and turning it into something real.
Has there been a standout moment for you while working on the team?
Yes, when we were trying to get the digital speedometer to work on the Porsche 911. We drove dozens of laps around QNX headquarters while I sat in the passenger seat with my laptop, taking readings off the Porsche's CAN bus. It was a blast — especially since we got the speedometer to work!
What is your biggest challenge right now? What keeps you up at night?
Working on concept projects is a juggling act. There are always many little pieces of software and hardware drivers being developed at the same time, and everything has to come together seamlessly. I've always been more of a programmer than a project manager, so making sure everything stays on track keeps me on my toes.
Who would you like to see seated in a QNX technology concept car or reference vehicle?
This couldn't happen in real life because he's a fictional character, but in almost every mockup produced by our designers, Gordon Freeman is phoning the car — you know, the protagonist in the Half-Life video game series. So it would be awesome to see Gordon Freeman sitting in the car. But unless it's someone in a costume, that's not going to happen!
What is your dream car?
The Porsche ruined most other cars for me; it really is that amazing. But If I had to pick one, it would be the Audi R8. It's a fantastic looking car.
Are you excited about the new concept car that we plan to unveil at CES?
Of course — it's going to rock! We are building some really awesome stuff into this car. People will be impressed.


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Many people have described writing online as being slowly lowered into a vat of acidic bile, without the benefit of being Batman first.
Follow the link below to view the full article.
The link is 100% virus free and carrys no risk of harm to your computer. It's just a URL shortner which directs you straight to the article.


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All News Releases By Date
Russell Stover Candies, Inc., to Pay $585,000 Penalty to Settle Violations of Clean Water Act at its Iola, Kansas, Facility
Release Date: 06/21/2012
Contact Information: Ben Washburn, 913-551-7364, firstname.lastname@example.com; David Bryan, 913-551-7433, firstname.lastname@example.com
Environmental News
(Kansas City, Kan., June 21, 2012) - Russell Stover Candies, Inc., has agreed to pay a $585,000 civil penalty to settle alleged violations of the federal Clean Water Act at its facility in Iola, Kan., the U.S. Department of Justice and the Environmental Protection Agency announced today.
In June 2008, EPA performed an audit of the City of Iola's pretreatment implementation activities. During the audit, EPA identified numerous program deficiencies, including Russell Stover's discharges of acidic wastewater to a publicly owned treatment works. In July 2009, EPA issued an administrative compliance order to Russell Stover to cease discharges of its acidic wastewater and provide monitoring and additional information to EPA.
The violations were documented by sampling conducted by Russell Stover but did not stop until EPA issued the compliance order in 2009. After the 2009 order was issued, the company implemented pretreatment measures and enhanced its discharge monitoring.
"This settlement sends a clear message," EPA Regional Administrator Karl Brooks said. "Companies that use publicly owned treatment works to treat their wastewater must follow the law. In this case, Russell Stover had been discharging acidic wastewater for years, and deteriorated sewer lines and manholes in Iola."
The consent decree requires Russell Stover to perform compliance monitoring for a period of two years and submit a "Phase II" pretreatment plan if the monitoring shows noncompliance.
The consent decree is subject to a public comment period and court approval before it becomes final.
Learn more about EPA's civil enforcement of the Clean Water Act
Locate this and other Region 7 news items on the News Where You Live interactive map
Connect with EPA Region 7 on Facebook: www.facebook.com/eparegion7
Search this collection of releases | or search all news releases
View selected historical press releases from 1970 to 1998 in the EPA History website.


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Obama: 'We're Running Out Of Time' For Deficit Deal
"We have a unique opportunity to do something big" and put the federal government's fiscal books in order for the next decade or so, President Obama said this morning at a White House news conference where he again laid out his view of where things stand in deficit-reduction talks with Republican leaders.
And during his second news conference of the week, the president made the case that Republicans haven't yet been willing to embrace what he calls a "balanced" approach to deficit reduction that includes spending cuts and increases in tax revenues. Republican leaders, meanwhile, continue to say that the president is wrong to be talking about asking anyone to pay more in taxes at a time when the economy remains weak.
We live-blogged as it happened. Later, Frank James will have some analysis over at It's All Politics.
Click here for our coverage of his Monday news conference.
Update at 1:45 p.m. ET. On Support For A "Balanced Approach":
During his news conference, as you'll see below, the president mentioned several times that "80 percent" of Americans favor what he refers to as a "balanced" approach to deficit reduction that combines spending cuts with some increases in tax revenues. We pointed to Pew Research polling on the issue.
There are also numbers this week from Gallup, which said its polling shows that:
-- 20 percent of those surveyed said deficit reduction should come "only" through spending cuts.
-- 30 percent said it should come "mostly" through spending cuts.
-- 32 percent said the mix should be equal parts spending cuts and tax increases.
-- 7 percent said "mostly" tax increases.
-- 4 percent said "only" tax increases.
A Quinnipiac University poll this week showed 67 percent of those surveyed said that "an agreement to raise the debt ceiling should include tax hikes for the wealthy and corporations, not just spending cuts," vs. 25 percent who opposed such a mix.
Check the links to those poll reports for data on their methodology.
Update at 1:20 p.m. ET. Boehner Says Obama's "Deeds Aren't Matching His Words."
This statement has been released from the office of House Speaker John Boehner (R-OH):
"President Obama has been talking tough about cutting spending, but his deeds aren't matching his words. Consider all of the government boondoggles he has refused to put on the table for cuts: ObamaCare; the so-called 'green jobs' initiative; high-speed rail; and a vast array of other pet projects that are unnecessarily costing taxpayers hundreds of billions of dollars. While Republicans have focused on the big problems we face, this White House has focused on protecting the status quo. The same holds true for entitlement spending, where the White House has been talking in terms of nickels and dimes at a time when trillions of dollars in serious reforms are needed to preserve the programs and put them on a sustainable path.
"As Moody's and Standard & Poor's have signaled this week, our nation's economy is literally begging for Washington to take meaningful action to cut spending and reduce the deficit. It is absurd and self-destructive to continue dumping taxpayer money into a 'stimulus' philosophy that has consistently failed to support private-sector job creation in our country. The White House must step up and embrace real spending reforms and cuts that will show job creators America is finally serious about addressing the debt. Democrats and Republicans must lock arms together in the days ahead and take real action to stop the spending binge that has put our nation in economic jeopardy."
Update at 11:55 a.m. ET. More On The Republican View:
On the NPR broadcast a moment ago, Talk of the Nation host Neal Conan made the point that though the president says he's holding out for what he calls a "balanced" approach in order to get the nation's fiscal house in order, Republicans such as House Majority Leader Eric Cantor (R-VA) are making the case that this is a unique opportunity "to restructure" the way the way things are done in Washington and bring spending in control.
Update at 11:40 a.m. ET. At The End, A Warning That "We're Running Out Of Time":
"We're running out of time" to get a deficit-reduction and debt-ceiling deal done by the Aug. 2 deadline when the government runs out of money to pay its obligations, the president says. "That's the main concern I have at this point."
But, he continues, "we know how we can create a package that solves the deficits and debt for a significant period of time. But in order to do that we've got to get started now."
And he makes the case that progressives and conservatives alike should both "be concerned about debt and deficit [reduction]" because "if you care about making investments in our kids ... infrastructure ... research ... then you should want our fiscal house in order."
Update at 11:35 a.m. ET. "Every Once In A While" Politicians Can Do What's Right:
Isn't the 2012 campaign rhetoric already making it hard to get a deal, Obama is asked?
After saying there will be plenty of time for "a big, serious debate" in the campaign, the president says that "in the meantime, surely we can every once in a while sit down" and get things done.
Update at 11:29 a.m. ET. "I Always Have Hope":
Asked why he has hope that a big deficit-reduction deal will be reached, the president chuckles as he says "I always have hope. Don't you remember my campaign?"
Update at 11:26 a.m. ET. "The American People Are Sold":
Again making his case for a "balanced" approach that combines spending cuts and increases in tax revenues, the president says "the American people are sold" on that approach.
"Eighty percent of the American people" support dealing with deficits with a combination of spending cuts and increases in tax revenues, Obama says.
The Pew Research Center has a lot of polling data on how Americans feel about deficit-reduction posted here.
Update at 11:21 a.m. ET. The Republican View.
From an Associated Press report about what GOP leaders were saying earlier this morning:
"[House Speaker John] Boehner ... complained that Obama has not put a viable plan on the table. Earlier, House Budget Committee Chairman Paul Ryan (R-WI) accused Obama of being unwilling to embrace the level of spending cuts necessary to avoid constant repetitions of the debt stalemate currently gripping Washington."
Update at 11:18 a.m. ET. Another Call For Compromise:
"If we're serious about this and everybody's willing to compromise," the president says, " we can fix this thing [deficits] for a decade or more."
Update at 11:16 a.m. ET. No "Credible Plan" Yet For Getting To $2.4 Trillion:
It's been widely reported that lawmakers have tentatively agreed on about $1.7 trillion in spending cuts over the next decade or so. The goal is to get to about $2.4 trillion — the amount by which the administration wants to raise the debt ceiling.
Obama says "I have not seen a credible plan" from Republicans "that would allow you to get to $2.4 trillion without really hurting ordinary folks."
Update at 11:12 a.m. ET. "Means-Testing" Or Raising Social Security's Retirement Age?
Asked for any specifics he can offer about specific spending cuts he could accept, the president is quizzed about the possibility of "means-testing" Social Security or raising the program's retirement age.
"We've said that we are willing to look at all those approaches," the president says. "Modest modifications" can save billions of dollars, he adds, and it would no be — and he does not favor — necessary to make major modifications to such programs.
"If you're a senior citizen and a modification potentially costs you $100 or $200 a month more, ..." Obama says, returning to his view on the need for "balance," ... "the least I can do is say that people who are making $1 million or more" are also sacrificing.
Update at 11:05 a.m. ET. "At Least Get A Downpayment":
"I am still pushing for us to achieve a big deal," Obama says, "but what I also said to the [leadership] group was that if we can't do the biggest deal possible then let's still be ambitious. ... At least get a down payment on deficit-reduction."
Update at 11:03 a.m. ET. "Unique Opportunity:"
"We have a unique opportunity to do something big" and get the federal government's fiscal house in order for years to come, the president says. But doing so, he says, will require not just major cuts in projected spending but also that "millionaires and billionaires ... do a little bit more" in the form of paying more in taxes as loopholes are closed.
Update at 11 a.m. ET: Getting started a couple minutes early, the president begins by saying that it is "encouraging that everybody believes this is something that needs to be addressed" — referring to the need to increase the federal government's debt ceiling by Aug. 2.
Update at 10:50 a.m. ET: According to a , "the president will speak on the status of efforts to find a balanced approach to deficit reduction." It has been the president's position that Republicans aren't willing to "balance" spending cuts with some increases in tax revenues — achieved, he says, largely by closing loopholes that now benefit "millionaires." Republican leaders say the White House has been insisting on tax increases at a time when doing that could damage an already weak economy.
Copyright 2020 NPR. To see more, visit https://www.npr.org.


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Andy Doran and Meghan Seawell, married last year, are getting some well-meaning pressure to buy a house. "The expectation is that's what you do," Seawell said. "People say, 'Now's the time to buy,' or tell us we're 'throwing money away on rent.'"
But the St. Paul couple don't see it that way. "We like the freedom offered by renting," Doran said, including having money for travel and being able to call the landlord when something needs fixing. They may buy a house in the future, but they're in no rush. Doran believes home prices are still too high, relative to other things. Seawell thinks a financial cushion is a higher priority.
"In this economy, I want to have money in savings," she said. "You're giving up so much to call a house your own, when you can't even call it your own for 30 years."
Renting used to be what you did until you could afford to buy. As soon as you had a steady job and cash for a down payment, you bought a home. It was a rite of passage, a milestone on the road to the good life. But the recession is forging a different perspective on homeownership.
"I could buy," said Crystal Donelan of Minneapolis. "My friends have bought, and I realize that it's exciting. But it's not that tempting." Ownership brings added responsibilities and expenses, she said, and she likes knowing she can move whenever she wants to. "Somebody has to own, but it doesn't have to be me."
The house has long been the symbol of the American dream, said John Archer, cultural studies chairman at the University of Minnesota and author of "Architecture and Suburbia." But today, "younger renters are wisely realizing this is an unstable situation." Their wariness represents "a remarkable change in what the American dream is. This is the first crack in that, ever, that the American dream is not necessarily about acquiring a piece of property."
It's too soon to tell whether this is a short-term response to the struggling housing market, he said. But if it persists, "it's a landmark shift."
The recession has accelerated that shift, but the seeds were sown during the housing bubble, Archer said. "You couldn't watch HGTV without seeing 15 ways to flip a house, stage a house, redo a house to sell. It became a habitable product rather than your own personal dream space. When the house becomes a down-and-dirty investment, it erodes the whole idea of that dream."
Mobility rules
Then there's the current job market, which makes homeownership less attractive than it used to be, Archer noted. "The idea of working for a corporation for 35 years and then retiring no longer exists. People will have to move to the job. They don't want an anchor that isn't liquid. Younger folks have more fear that the economy is unstable, and they value the opportunity that mobility affords them."
Owning used to make more financial sense than renting, for most consumers, "but the balance is teeter-tottering," said Tara-Nicholle Nelson, a consumer educator at Trulia.com, a real estate search engine and reference website. "There are generational segments for whom it has tilted. All [younger] people have seen of homeownership is the foreclosure mess. They have a hard time overcoming that in their minds. Being stuck geographically, so they couldn't pursue opportunities in the job market -- they see that as more of a liability than an asset."
For those who plan to stay in a home at least five to 10 years, owning probably still makes sense, Nelson said, although "it's very location-specific." (Trulia produces a quarterly rent-vs.-buy index for the 50 largest cities in the United States; Minneapolis falls in the middle. Twin Cities buyers should plan to stay in a home at least seven years, depending on the neighborhood, Nelson said.) "Owning is only wisely done as a long-term commitment."
Some people who have owned homes are opting not to do it again.
Eva Maile-Ichkhanian and her husband owned a home in Oklahoma but have been renting since moving to Minneapolis in 2004. "I was 18 when I moved to the U.S., and you hear from the very first, 'You're going to buy a house. This is what we do here,'" she said. Eventually, she did. But she didn't like the stress that came with it. "The whole concept is a heavy burden mentally. I was always worried about 'what ifs.' Now I'm more at peace. If there's a problem, I can pick up the phone and call someone else."
Americans have a bias against renters, she said. "There's that whole stigma: You're not really American unless you buy a house." Coming from Germany, she has a different perspective. "As Europeans, we all grow up renting. Our values of life don't center around homeownership. Peace of mind, quality of life are more important."
John Anderson of Savage owned a home when he lived in Tacoma, Wash., but he hasn't bought another one. "I do look at houses. My wife would like a house. But prices are out of whack relative to incomes," he said. "I don't think [home values] are done dropping because there's downward pressure on wages. The American dream has become the American nightmare. I'm relieved I don't own a house."
Even some current homeowners are rethinking their decision. "I'm an owner, but wish I was a renter," said Lance Goodeman of Albert Lea, Minn. A tree recently fell on his house, then it was flooded while he was out of town at a trade show. "Renters don't have to deal with that stuff. Everything you put into a house -- insurance, taxes, upkeep -- you never see that money again. We're kind of programmed to [buy]. But it's not all it's cracked up to be."
Of course, many of today's renters aren't renters by choice; they're former owners who lost their homes to foreclosure. "Those are the 'new renters,'" said Steve Rajavuori, a broker/owner with REI Property Management. "Some of them owned homes for 20 or 30 years. That's the biggest change -- people who used to be homeowners and are now forced to be renters."
Kim Palmer • 612-673-4784


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Acura RL vs. BMW 5-Series
I wonder if someone can compare the RL to the 530xi. I am currently trying to decide between these two. I have test driven the RL and find it to be very well put together machine. It has a solid construction and, I beleive, the bugs have been removed also. I am made to believe through these forums that I should not expect the same reliability from BMW though it is more fun to drive....! Any opinions?
Acura's target vehicle is the Audi A6 (or so are the claims of several folks who write about such things for a living.)
I have come to the conclusion that there are American, German and Japanese buyers. And I do understand that this is an over-generalization and as such it stands a pretty good chance of NOT applying to you.
However, on the chance that it MIGHT be relevant to you, perhaps you could share your "auto history."
Since your age and experience are tied to this history -- perhaps you could tell us about your last 5 or so cars. Perhaps you could tell us about your favorite car and your best car (which may not be the same car); and, your least favorite car and your worst car -- and your reasons for these opinions.
While we are not exactly shrinks here on these forums, it is certainly possible to point out general patterns.
Let me give you an example. The Acura is a front wheel drive car -- SH-AWD is real and its features and benefits are not advertising copy alone. But the Acura will feel different than the BMW for many reasons -- amongst them the BMW uses Rear Biased ALL WHEEL DRIVE and the BMW is better balanced in terms of weight distribution. Both cars will be more capable than 2WD cars in low coefficient of friction situations.
Of the LPS cars, these are both the "runts" of the litter, by a little bit. This only means they are not as big inside as some of the cars they compete with. Some people like the feel, the interior room of the Cadillac STS or even the C6 Audi platform -- just because they are a bit larger than the Acura.
The Acura has more power (horsepower), but BMW makes superb engines; and there just aren't enough "o's" in smoooth to describe them. Honda (Acura's parent), too is a well respected engine company.
The Acura may seem less connected to the highway; the BMW too connected to the highway.
The Acura may seem supremely quiet, the BMW too willing to tell you about that pebble you just ran over.
The 530xi can be had with a stick shift.
For me, that is game, set and match.
You may actually consider the BMW with an automatic.
While I can think of virtually no explanations why one would buy the 5 series "shiftless" -- well that is just me (literally just me, I fear.)
Do you really want to interact with the car "a lot"? Or just a little?
If you will take the time to put your thoughts down, we may be able to offer you more relevant thoughts.
Here's one: given some pricing parity, you will buy the one that you "like the looks of" over the other one that you like less in the styling department.
The Acura will likely be a hell of a deal -- and perhaps that, too, will come into play.
If the pros are right, you may want to consider the A6 q in the mix.
Keep us informed.
Thankyou for spending the time and energy to answer my question.
I am 41 and live in Cleveland, Ohio. I have a 2003 Accord V6 and I think I can tell what I want in a car. For example, I would love to drive a car which has good acceleration, has good road grip and drives well in snowy weather. Accord feels too light when it snows here and also hesitates climbing my driveway which may have a 15 degree incline. I am happy with the amount of space in the Accord and was okay with the space in RL; I only occasionally have someone sit in my car. I would like to drive something smooth and quiet. I do not appreciate the road noise in the Accord nor the vibration I feel when I hit the brakes (its been there since I bought it new and I have had my rotors turned twice and changed once). I appreciate the minimum body lean of the Accord when driving on a curve at high speed but not the feel of every pebble on the road, though I can live with the latter. I would like to drive something stylish but not at the cost of reliability; I was really fond of the VW Touareg but had to give up the idea because of just that. I am impressed with the looks of RL, 530xi and even the Dodge Charger. Lexus GS is also not too far behind. Unfortunately, I am not too impressed with M35 or A6 looks and like the A4 better, but it may be too tight inside. I would like to avoid an 8 cylinder motor, if I can, and especially a gas guzzler like the 550i, more for environmental reasons than anything else. Money does matter, so nothing above the $60k mark. By the way, this will be my first car in the luxury segment, if I buy/lease one.
breld Posts: 5,196I too have looked quite a bit at the RL and 530xi, though I've also considered the other players - GS300, A6 and M35. I currently drive an Acura TSX and am targeting something larger with AWD. Sporty pretentions is also a quality high on my list.
I took a nice long test drive, alone, in the RL and came away very impressed. I thought it accelerated well, and handled adequately for its size. I thought it was pretty quiet on the highway, though I thought there was a little excessive wind noise from the sunroof - when I got back to the dealer and out of the car, I noticed the sunroof was tilted open (the shade was closed so I didn't notice from the inside) :P .
If you read the threads from RL owners, a consistent complaint is the noise level - perhaps it gets worse with age, or perhaps I'm just used to my TSX, but I thought it was pretty darn quiet, and on par with the rest of the class.
For one reason or another, the RL has not sold well, and thus, it seems they can be had for low $40's. Which, in my mind, makes a great buy, as long as your comfortable with the reasons it's not selling well. It seems to me that a lot of it comes down to ho-hum styling, inside and out, and a lack of significant distinction from the TL and, some say, the Accord.
Since these reasons are pretty subjective in nature, I'd say if you like the RL, it's a great way to go. At it's MSRP of $50k, the competition is too stiff, as evidenced by the incentives offered on the RL. But it's a tremendous package for $42-$43k, new.
And I agree, it seems as though the bugs from the first model year were worked out for 2006. 2007 will offer more flexibility in model selection (i.e., nav is optional), if that means anything to you.
For me, the better balance and rear-biased AWD of the 530xi that Mark referred to make the BMW more appealing to me. And, on more simple terms, I really like the styling of the 5-series. It's the only one out of all the competitors that I've actually made purchase offers on, whereas when I'm done with the test drives of the other cars, I always feel like "thinking about it." So, sort of a gut feel.
My only concerns with the BMW is the cost and potential reliability issues. I've owned several Hondas/Acuras, with a Toyota and Infiniti thrown in there, so I'm very comfortable with those brands, but have no personal experience with BMW.
So, I'm looking at slightly used ones to make it more cost-effective, and preferably CPO ones to provide the extra warranty. It's worth it to me to go this route, to get the car I really want.
Anyway, just my thoughts. Thought I'd share. Good luck in your decision.
2019 Cayenne Base - 2020 Supra - 2020 MINI Hardtop S0
The thing about your post is you seem -- at first -- like you might prefer the Acura. It is probably more luxury oriented than the BMW.
Yet, a long identical (yes over the same route) test drive of each might leave you wishing for the BMW if you go with the Acura. You will NOT need to spend $60K on either of these.
The Acura on paper will be a better value -- more content for the money.
The BMW full maint program and the ability to CPO it yourself before 50K miles ought to allay your reliability concerns.
The Acura MAY be quieter over most road surfaces, but the BMW will not let much road noise in while the tires are in their tread depth sweet spot.
You didn't mention your preference for transmissions.
The BMW offers ONLY 6 speeds, both auto and manual. The Acura has a 5 speed auto.
The BMW is said to be more stark in its interior appointments than the Acura.
Both cars have had several glowing reviews written about them.
Acura is for whatever reason struggling to "give the RL's away" -- and their sales have dropped sometimes below 1000 units a month. This probably translates to a good deal.
The Acura can be tarted up a bit with a sport package that does include some ground effects too (A Spec.)
The BMW cannot be had with a sport suspension but there is a factory 18" wheel and tire option.
The sound system in the Acura is, to my taste, superior, but the BMW is very good, just not AS good as the Acura's.
The BMW remains for many the "IT" car -- for me that works against it, but I am clearly in the minority in this respect since most people avert their eyes and bow their heads when a BMW is nearby.
The Acura has been called a high zoot Accord by a few wise guys -- for some that is praising with faint damnation; for others it is vice versa.
The test drive, the long identical test drives with YOUR CD's in the changer; with similarly equipped versions (it would be nice if both had the nav system, that is.)
If you can, if they offer one, if there is ONE on the lot, do test drive the BMW 530xi with a 6 speed manual.
These cars, IMHO, have many more similar traits than dissimilar -- despite my comments. I would not be upset in being given either one as a company car; and, I probably would not pay $200 per month more for the BMW over the Acura on a lease.
I might pay $50 more for the BMW, maybe even $100 -- but I would take the manual transmission equipped version for my $100 up charge. I would get the A6 with SLine, premium and technology packages over either of these cars if I HAD to have an automatic transmission.
The Audi, if you care, can be had for a price similar to the BMW, but the Audi will have a 4.2FSI 350HP V8, whilst the BMW will come (at that price point) equipped with a 255HP i6.
Given the questions you have and your history, you may find the BMW is not quite the "start it, drive it and forget about it" car the Acura probably would be.
There are some impressive lease deals on the Acura for the reasons cited above.
Both cars will be wonderful in winter (love that alliteration.)
The BMW will take corners with aplomb. The Acura is no slouch in that dept, but, but, but -- it still has a FWD biased implementation of its SH-AWD.
Most of the time, however, you would never notice.
The BMW might look newer, more fresh, than the Acura 4 years from now -- but, heck, a lot of that is in the eye of the beholder.
The Acura is, to my eye, attractive but it does NOT hide its relationship with the Accord very well. That may or may not mean a hill of beans to you, and it is, after all, YOUR money.
Acura = probably the best deal
BMW = might be the best car (behind the wheel), however.
If you are looking for a big change from your Accord -- the BMW will be that. If you are looking for a "more better" version of your current car, the Acura will offer that easily.
If you are able and so inclined to drive at high speeds, I know of no country that builds cars better equipped to do this than Germany (even though it is said Infinity at least now knows the target it is shooting for.)
So, drive: the Acura RL and A-spec; the Audi A6 S-Line;the BMW 530xi in both auto and manual configurations; and, while your at it, take an M35X with Journey and Technology packages out for a drive.
Drive 'em all.
Drive 'em again.
See what kind of deals you can get.
Drive 'em again -- and take notes (hence the reason to drive the same test loop).
Tally your scores.
Drive into the sunset knowing that you have picked YOUR best, YOUR favorite.
Don't start out making excuses though as to why you went with "A" rather than "B" or "C" which you really wanted more in the first place.
This means you do need to make a price dependent and independent choice.
I mean, for pity's sake, would you NOT take your "second choice" price independent if it were to be offered to you for $100 per month?
Let the fun begin. :surprise:0
Thankyou Mark and Breld for your very helpful comments. Mark, man, you seem to be a poet when it comes to cars. You seem to know more about cars than anyone I have ever known. Thanks for your wonderful analysis. You could be a car shrink!
Please help me understand a couple of things you have written. One was "..you may find the BMW is not quite the "start it, drive it and forget about it car the Acura probably would be". Does this mean it requires more maintenance? No. 2, "The BMW will take corners with aplomb. The Acura is no slouch in that dept, but, but, but -- it still has a FWD biased implementation of its SH-AWD". Does it make a difference when taking corners? I thought that the difference would be in acceleration.
To tell you the truth, I was originally inclined to get the RL and went out and test drove it. Though I find it to be really beautiful and plush from inside, I did not enjoy driving it. The 530 looked hideous to me when I first saw it, unlike the older 5 which had stunning good looks. But it seems to be growing on me and the more I see it the more I like it. I would hopefully test drive it soon and take another look at the RL. One of my problems is that I do not have too much time to spend on this activity; I tested the RL when I went for Accord's scheduled service. I'll keep you posted. Thanks again.0
#1. Maybe, but what I was meaning to suggest was that the BMW will be MORE involving to drive.
#2. The BMW has Rear biased All Wheel Drive and has better f/r balance. The Acura tends to understeer more than the BMW, too. The Acura tends to pull more than push is what I wanted to point out.
Much of the time, perhaps, it won't make you "no never mind."
There will be times however that the Front biased AWD of the Acura will make it somewhat less satisfying than the BMW (at least if you know how the BMW feels.)0
ocim Posts: 45One thing to point out, though, is a lot of folks that buy these cars are not professional drivers. A lot of these buyers are just ordinary drivers that are able to afford a "status" car. It is easier to regain control of a FWD with understeer that it is to regain control of a RWD car with oversteer.0
I recently tested RL and 530xi. Problem with RL is that it is really not worth its original MSRP of $49K or so. Here is my list of issues in RL (as $50K car - it is fine as $40K car).
1. Engine. Although it claims almost 300hp, you drive torque, not horsepower. And RL torque is not that high and peaks at 5000rpm. This means car does not feel quick unless you really step on it.
2. 5 speed transmission. Everyone in the 50K+ segment offers 6sp or more.
3. Only 8 way driver seat. Even *basic* BMW seat adjusts 10 ways and contour seats do it 20 ways.
4. Only 4-way adjustment for passenger seat. Is this a joke?
5. Acura says, everything is included. What is actually means "we included everything that we managed to salvage from TL and Accord". RL simply does not have options every luxury car has, included or optional. Where are rain sensing wipers? Heated rear seats? Parking sensors or rear camera? Night vision? High-grade leather? iPod integration? Heated steering wheel? Headlight washers? Multi stage front heated seats? Ventilated seats?
It feels like Acura decided to cut costs all over the place.0
psz08 Posts: 1PRICE:
Both seem to be over priced.
Test Drive:
After test driving the RL i was pretty amazed at how well it handled and the engine always had more hp left to shell out. However, once i moved onto the 530xi, my amazement for the RL was absolutely diminished. I must say driving this car made me feel as if i could prevent accidents from occurring. The car is extremely manuverable in bad weather situations. After finishing both test drives i was still ready to buy either of the cars.
Interior and gadgets
I must say if you are the type to use all the new crazy gadgets that luxury cars offer you, both cars will please you. The RL gives you many of these features and they are in the normal spots that you would imagine them being in any other luxury car. I can't say the same for the new 530xi which has the new Idrive. This basically means that you have your screen which has your navigation, but that same screen also controls most all of your technology. Many people find this to be a hassle; however i got used to it in about two or three days.
In the end for all the people who are looking for a luxury sedan with one of the best AWD offered, i would go with the 530xi. Other alternatives are the new GS AWD however i didn't get it due to the trunk opening being extremely small, Audi A6 or A8 (i dont have a very close audi dealership around me), the infiniti g35x and m35x (gas mileage on the m35x is bad compared to BMW), and last the RL (not as good as the BMW didn't feel as sturdy).
I ended up buying the 530xi with just about everything except premium sound, sports package, xm radio for about 54,000(tax and liscence plate not included). This is an EXCELLENT CAR0
Hey all - Looking for quick feedback on 2005 RL,30,000 miles, bought at auction for $34,000 vs. 2006 525xi, 21,000 miles, used as a loaner by the BMW dealership for $40,000ish. Thoughts? (41 year-old Maxima owner)0
Hey all - Looking for quick feedback on 2005 Acura RL,30,000 miles, available at auction for $34,000 vs. 2006 525xi, 21,000 miles, used as a loaner by the BMW dealership for $40,000ish.
I'm a 41 year-old manual Maxima SE driver who needs to move to automatic cuz of back problems and have come to the place where luxury gets a slight nod over sportiness - but only slight - no Lexus for me! Thoughts? (41 year-old Maxima owner)0
You have never driven BMW, you'll be happy with Acura. If you did and liked BMW, then why are you asking?0
tayl0rd Posts: 1,926Seems like they're both overpriced to me.0
I agree. You could have picked up a brand new RL at the end of '06 model year for 40K. Timing is everything.
Why not get a brand new 07 328xi instead of the used 5-series?0
Actually a terrific idea... the new 328xi will outperform the 525xi. Can be had for under $40K also. It may sacrifice a couple of inches in certain dimensions, but a thoroughly wonderful machine. My 2003 530SP has 225hp and performs quite well... the new 328xi will bring 230hp to the dance in a slightly lighter platform (although the 4wd adds unwanted weight) and will provide as much fun as you might want. Although, you should drive the new 335i just to experience the magic of a 300hp BMW I6 motor0
"My 2003 530SP has 225hp and performs quite well... the new 328xi will bring 230hp to the dance in a slightly lighter platform (although the 4wd adds unwanted weight) and will provide as much fun as you might want."
Well, I wouldn't go quite that far. True, the new 3.0 liter mill in the 328(x)i models does have slightly more horsepower, however, said horsepower comes at slightly higher RPM as well. The problem with the engine in my mind is that the newer engine produces less torque (200 vs. 214 for the engine that you and I have/had in our E39s).
Then there is the weight issue. Consider the weights of 3,340, 3,494 and 3,582 which correlate to the 2007 328i, the 2003 530i and the 2007 328xi respectively. I'm thinking that even though the all over differences aren't huge, the 328i and the old 530i will be pretty evenly matched while the 328xi will lag behind the other two with its softer suspension, greater weight and less grunty engine.
FWIW, I still think you were spot on with your "Actually a terrific idea..." comment, I just wanted to point out a few other factors. ;-)
Best Regards,
I find that people are quite amazed at the performance I can wring out of my beloved e39. On my 3rd set of tires in 42k miles!
I would not opt for any xi variant from BMW unless I lived up north, but totally agree with one of the other knowledgeable posters on this forum (is it you?) that a great set of winter tires is the answer.
If I could have any wish, it would be to couple the new twin-turbo six with my e39SP. Might not EVER consider parting with it. I understand that there will be a 535, which might be worth a look if the slight styling mods (inside & out) are agreeable.
Still, though... few cars get down the road and through the turns with the feel of this car.0
I" would not opt for any xi variant from BMW unless I lived up north, but totally agree with one of the other knowledgeable posters on this forum (is it you?) that a great set of winter tires is the answer."
Yup, that would be me. I had a set of snows for my E39 and the car was awesome in the snow.
"If I could have any wish, it would be to couple the new twin-turbo six with my e39SP. Might not EVER consider parting with it."
I posted the exact same sentiment a month or two back. An E39 with the new twin turbo six would be an absolute PERFECT car. ;-)
Best Regards,
Thanks...I think the extra weight of the 328xi might give the ride a little more of a 5-like ride experience.
I drove a 335i coupe when my '03 530 was in for service. Very fast but felt a little light when pushed - at least to me (and I know what that can feel like since my other car is a 2006 MX-5). I think the extra weight in the 3-series x models might be a good thing for ride compliance/stability even though straight line performance is sacrificed.
I want to drive the new 335i convertible for my next test drive :-) Speaking of extra weight.0
This discussion has been closed.


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