Can you add a leather frame to the edges of the chainmail, similar to how it is seen on the legion armor? Edit: Actually, it would be better to keep the bottom of the chainmail without such a frame, but still add it in the other places.
Instead of having the chain jacket sewn together with threads, You could leave it entirely to the belts to keep the two parts connected. Otherwise vrolok might be right about saying that it's a needlessly complicated design. If you have the leather border on both sides, people will recognize it as a jacket, too.
Another last thing: Would it be possible to add an attachment to the sleaves? Otherwise they will be weird as separate pauldrons, if they are only the sleeves of the chainjacket without anything else about them.
@vrolok: We are striving for surreal designs. Also, to a degree we are going a fine line between a realistic and a stylised environment, where some things don't have to make an apparent sense, but could still be explained with some effort.
We are striving for surreal designs. Also, to a degree we are going a fine line between a realistic and a stylised environment, where some things don't have to make an apparent sense, but could still be explained with some effort.
We already have quite crappy designs from Bethesda (I am looking at you Studded Leather and Ringmail), so I just want to have at least one good, simple, realistic design for armor (gambeson aka padded armor).
I believe original game did quite a good job of having both surreal designs and realistic ones. So we shouldn't completely say no to it. Plus you have to admit, gambeson is not so boring. Not a single other Bethesda game had it so far, even if it is a very basic thing. It would fit the Skyrim as well as Cyrodiil, even in the south. It's a brilliant design in my opinion. Extremely logical to have, both from world building perspective and design wise. I mean seriously, if several layers of cloth can protect better than leather, why not use it?
As for weird designs, let's leave most for Nibenese armor styles, which should have a lot of ceremonial aspect to them I believe. There, almost all bets are off and we could be much more creative. It would also create this bigger distinction, similar to Morrowind with native styles vs. foreign.
Instead of having the chain jacket sewn together with threads, You could leave it entirely to the belts to keep the two parts connected. Otherwise vrolok might be right about saying that it's a needlessly complicated design.
Vrolok wrote: As for weird designs, let's leave most for Nibenese armor styles, which should have a lot of ceremonial aspect to them I believe. There, almost all bets are off and we could be much more creative. It would also create this bigger distinction, similar to Morrowind with native styles vs. foreign.
I'd disagree, oddity shouldn't be left to Nibenay. Tamriel is a different world, and while real-world design should be looked to for inspiration and combat technicality, every location would have it's own brand of strange. Colovia may be the more grounded of the two, but that's not to say their armor styles should not be unique to them and instead be pulled from reality.
While padded armor may make sense in our world, things develop differently in Tamriel, and we have to consider this from a stylistic perspective. I don't know about everyone else, but I personally imagine padded armors to be more of a High Rock style. Such basic designs seem more at home there than they do in Cyrodiil.
I am sorry to say, but that makes no sense. I agree on Colovians having their own weirdness and I am okay with that. Completely fine with that, even though they still shouldn't be as weird as Nibenay.
But it is completely illogical to assume they wouldn't use gambesons! It is better than some other stuff they use and it is very easy to make. It makes them idiots in my opinion and they are not idiots. How come it is so hard to understand? The designs in the game are weird, because there are reasons for that, not because "They live on another planet, they shouldn't have anything similar, even though they totally can judging by their technologies, but they are not us, so no". That makes no sense to me.
Granted, it can look slightly different and be somewhat unique to Tamriel, but why won't they have it? They have the technology. It is good protection and cheap. Inventing it is easy. Why they would not have it? Because they are from Tamriel and Tamriel is not Earth? Really? That is not logical world design and much bigger fantasy than any Morrowind weirdness.
Last edited by vrolok on Mon Apr 11, 2016 7:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There's no need to get upset, we simply have differing opinions. From a stylistic perspective, I simply don't see them being popular in Cyrodiil, rather High Rock or northern Cyrodiil maybe. Besides, we already have the Studded Leather design that's been pointed out. We should expand on existing concepts before needlessly introducing new ones. Not everything can be included simply because it all seems logical; there's culture, style, etc. to take into consideration, not to mention whether or not that new asset really adds anything new to what we have. Otherwise, I'm sure every 'logical' armor in the book would have been stuffed into vanilla Morrowind. Reasoning can be constructed for nearly every design decision and does not need grounded in "This makes sense in the real-world, so it must make sense in Tamriel", that is a means of thinking I absolutely do not subscribe to. Again, different world, different resources, not grounded in the laws and familiar methods as we know them. Just wanted to share my opinion on the subject, so I'm not going to participate in any further real-world vs. other-world debate unless someone feels the need to create an unnecessary thread for the subject.
We sholdn't limit stylization to the more weirder cultures. However, I wouldn't mind a cloth gambeson myself. We do have this pad-armor integrated in some of our skyrim armors as a side-element and Jiub added some of it to the chainmail above. Actually, I've been wondering in the past if the whole silk-theme of the Nibenese could be extended onto a cloth-theme for all imperials by making fabrics a very central element of armors, furnite and even architecture. The poor gold coast houses have these funny curtains, for example. I also thought about making padded furniture a major thing, even if I only ended up making a single chair.
Regarding the stuts, we have used them as a stylistic element on a number of Colovian clothes. It's also something that shows up on Nord armors and clothes.
"This makes sense in the real-world, so it must make sense in Tamriel"
I am reasoning for one particular set of armor, which would make sense in Tamriel and I think I have properly explained why. They have the technology, they have the means, it is good protection. That's all that is required for it to make sense, really. I am not arguing against something here, I am arguing for a particular thing which makes total sense.
Thing is I kind of understand where you are coming from and I understand that you are looking for the best, yet I feel that you are kinda taking it to the extreme here. I am not saying that everything has to follow earthly logic, but basic things like that cannot be just taken away, otherwise it makes the world less believable. We can argue that cloth works differently in Tamriel, but does it really have to be that complicated? Or maybe swords and arrows? Maybe the physics are completely different? I would much prefer not to go into such details, focusing on more important matters.
In my opinion the only reason padded armor wasn't included in original game is poor design choices. Things like studded leather and ringmail are very popular fantasy elements, based on rather silly myths about real world armor. Such things are popular in Hollywood films and cheap fantasy, because they look cool. Yet, these are exactly armors which make the world look silly. There is no logical reasons for them whatsoever, except that they are popular fantasy elements.
Padded armor on the other hand is quite a handy design, which can be used in variety of settings. It was used by vikings, knights, regular warriors, practically everyone. It does not look like cheap fantasy, it can also be altered in shape and color to fit any settings. We could have both basic version and even more unique regional pieces for Colovia, Skyrim, etc. It would be a good medium-level Light armor.
What I ask for, is at least one simple gambeson which does not even have to be native to Cyrodiil. It could be from High Rock for all I care. But it is extremely simple and cheap, so it should be more or less widespread around Tamriel as a cheaper alternative to chainmail. Some races and cultures, like elves for example, might think that it's distasteful or too simple and prefer their own armors. But Colovians are practical people, they would certainly use something like that.
I can actually think of a way to make it even better fitting Cyrodiil: we can have local padded armor with studs. And in dialogues, Colovians will say that studs make armor look more unique and special or something like that. It would explain why leather is studded, but also show how they differ from our world. They still use similar armors and studs are simple decorations. Same can probably be said about rings in the ring mail. Colovians just like adding random metal stuff into their armor. Silly, but not unheard of.
As a result, it would eliminate several problems: explain the silly armors in game and add more unique armor (which will also be more protective). I still believe there should be a more simple design, but a Studded Colovian Gambeson would fit the world, while being truly useful. Much more so than original armor.
Last edited by vrolok on Mon Apr 11, 2016 7:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
And in dialogues, Colovians will say that studs make armor look more unique and special or something like that.
I thought the studs were, in principle, like icebergs in that they hold a larger metalplace which is found below the cloth or leather they are added to.
P.S. Please don't think that I am somehow trying to stiffen the creativity with my proposals here. I, as probably everyone else here, like Morrowind's wacky style. My favourite armor piece from Morrowind is the Telvanni Cephalopod Helmet. I also love chitin, glass, daedric armor (except for silly floating horns, which look unimpressive in Morrowind's engine).
So if somebody comes up with cool armor designs, which would fit the world, I would totally support it. But I also want Tamriel to make some sense. As worsas said, there are already uses of padded armor in various armor designs. Thing is, padded armor is useful even by itself. So, I really see no reason not to implement it. It really is a needed piece in my opinion.
I could be wrong and simply wasting your time here. It's up to you to decide whether we need it or not, I have already given you all my arguments in support of it. If you think that this is not enough to valid creation of new armor piece, so be it. But I have a very strong feeling that it is missing and that it would be very useful to us.
As for my words regarding difference between Nibenese and Colovian armor, I have used word "most". I do believe Colovian armors could be weird, including their silly studs and rings or other means of weirdness, I just believe that Nibenese armors would be more creative due to their more spiritual and ritual approach, rather than practical approach of Colovians. That is my opinion on the differences between the two, but obviously there are other factors in the equation, like Akaviri influence, etc.
It's great to have ideas and suggestions that you're passionate about, but if you're going to be an "ideas" person, you can't be disappointed if they don't pan out. The only surefire way to get one of your ideas in game is to do the texture or model work yourself (or find appropriate modders' resources) and post it in the Data Files Update thread. That's how the Redguard armor in the other thread came to be- I didn't request anybody to make it for me, or say "wouldn't it be cool if we had this"- I said "hey, here's this thing I made that I think would work well in the game"- and sure enough, they found a niche for it. Every request is an investment of time and energy, so ultimately it's at the discretion of the ones investing that energy to follow up on it or not. For instance, as much as I like my creature concepts, worsas is the one with the power to bring them to life - if he likes another concept better and decides to go that route, that's his prerogative.
You don't have to be very vague about who was it, if I offended someone, then I am very sorry. I've had no intention to do so. And as I said, I exhausted all the arguments I've had for this one. I might've been very passionate sometimes, but I hope I did not offend anyone too much.
It's just such a good tone, when a game has accurate stuff like gambeons and such that I really wished it could be incorporated. As for modelling, I might try it out sometime, but it's not an easy task and I have huge respect for modellers, they are doing amazing things. Including you, Saint_Jiub.
I really did not wish for it to look like I have to prove something, but it felt like I wasn't heard. Just because it's too realistic. Which is sad, because very few games have this particular design on the same account. This has been bothering me for years and even though later games like Dark Souls and Witcher started including some of the better armor designs, Morrowind was left with some silly Fantasy stuff, while overall design of the game is superb. So I really wanted to improve this area at least a little bit, which I always felt weak.
I will try not too bother you guys that much, okay? Or maybe start separate topic next time. Sorry, once again.
Vrolok, it wasn't just about you (if it was, I would send you a private message rather than putting you on blast out here)- it's something I've been noticing since before you joined and you're not the only one doing it, so don't worry - you're not bothering anybody and you're definitely not offending us. Like I said, the enthusiasm is great, I really do mean that and I wish more people were passionate about this project.
Here's my dirty little secret - I don't model; not even a little bit. I'm purely a texture artist. I use Nioliv's BB model resources for just about everything I do with clothing/armor, and the folks here are nice enough to help me out if there's a model I can't find a resource for with one of my texture projects (the chapel windows are a good example of this). We are a community here and we do help each other out. But my point is just that if you're asking the art team to take on the whole responsibility of making something, you can't be upset if they don't want to.
As you guys probably know, I'm currently making new hat/helmet models for Morrowind.
It's supposed to be an illustration for inclusive Cyrodiilic culture, taking Nordic trollbone armoring techniques and Ayleidic avian design and melding it together.
I'm gonna make it anyway for my mod, but do you think it can have a place in P:C too? If yes, any input?
This design is really great, I love how it combines the avian aspect of the Ayleids with the color scheme of the Empire and their symbolism in the diamond carvings. I'd think it'd be perfect if utilized in locations where Ayleid Revivalism is making an impact.
Yes, yes, that's actually an awesome helmet! We should definitely use it! Thank you, R-Zero!
What actually could be even more awesome is if you could possibly make another one, more elaborate version with some more decorations and a longer beak? It's just a suggestion, but it would not only look cool, but I believe will provide a great asset in the future. As Anumaril has said, it could be really useful for Ayleid Revivalists.
I intentionally went away from the long-beaked design to make it look more like a knight's helmet visor and make it more human-like overall. The material is supposed to be an actual beak of Saint Jiub's proposed terror birds, so there's also that.
But I'll think about the long-beaked ones when we'll have more tangible grip on the Revivalists and their lore. A ritual mask, maybe?
This is just my thoughts, though. Not an official request, but more what I personally envision could be a great asset for Revivalists. If you feel like doing it, that would be cool!
We can either use them or edit them, or make our own. Remember, I don't insist on padded armor being native to Cyrodiil, but it should be more or less widespread around the Empire, at least in my opinion. Priorities go to native Imperial styles, of course. We can also edit it, to make more unique Imperial looking gambesons.
It was my assumption that Ayleid Revivalism isn't some organization, but simply a growing subculture within Nibenay, especially among the elite. With the Alessian Order having purged Ayleid culture from the east and their negative, hateful outlook on the Ayleid persisting for generations, Revivalism is a newfound and unprecedented spark of Ayleid interest within the Nibenese territory. If there's any violence or militant action in dealing with this subculture, I'd imagine it'd come from Temple Zero or the more conservative Nibenese, not from the nerds who just want to play around with avian imagery and Welkynd stones all day. Therefore, I see such fashion as this helmet to not belonging to some specific role of character, but rather something wearable by anyone in Nibenay, indicative of the growing popularity of Ayleid culture and design in the region.
Yeah, that's true. I still would love to see more of your works, they are awesome.
I am absolutely convinced that we should have creatures from your Creatorium, if you don't mind it of course. Though that is not a discussion for this topic. If we are talking about the armor, I would love to see what creative designs you come up with.
Oh, I see. Well put.
vrolok wrote: Maybe you can try your hand at Ayleid stuff if you are interested?
You mean, the whole sets? I don't think I'm ready for this yet, my 3d modeling skills are not that good and I don't know a thing about skinning meshes. Maybe later, when I'll get better at it, I'll tackle the more advanced stuff, but for now I want to limit myself to creating more simple items.
The thing is, it's actually not. Although I thought the same in the past, and wouldn't believe I could ever make even the relatively simple things I do now, once I actually tried (I started it what, last September?) it turned out to be much easier than I expected. So I advice anyone who's afraid of 3d modeling to try it too Maybe the project will get a lot of modelers this way.
Offtopic stuff aside, I was meaning to ask another question: what's the project's angle on hats? You can't make them as clothes in Morrowind, only as helmets, so I'm asking here.
In vanilla Morrowind there are only two hat-like items - Colovian Fur Helm (which is probably closer to an actual helmet than a hat) and the Gondolier's hat. Could Cyrodiil have more types of these? Oriental-looking straw hats in Nibenean rice fields? Pointy wizard hats for mages? Colovian berets/fut hats?
Yeah, that's a thing. There are already a few hats for Colovia of what I have seen.
As for modelling, I might give it a try one day, but I would need a good and comprehensive tutorial on Morrowind formats. Working with these old nifs seems to be a pain. Unless we switch to OpenMW in the process. Maybe it's not as bad as I think it is.
vrolok wrote: Yeah, that's a thing. There are already a few hats for Colovia of what I have seen.
Oooh, found these Colovian hats! Good work they are.
I believe it will look quite good in Colovia, but also other parts of Tamriel. Think of it as common armor, not specific to any region (Com_).
Needs a bit more work and fixing and I am not sure I am the best person to do it, but I will try.
Looking good so far to me Bear in mind, if it's armor then the arms will be separate from the cuirass- are you thinking just a padded vest, or did you have some sort of pauldrons in mind too?
Technically, they are padded pauldrons in game. Based on Nordic Fur Pauldrons, but without the pauldron itself. I think there can be a few pieces of padded armor, but not whole set. Though I could also probably see padded helm(cap) and padded greaves (trousers), but not gauntlents nor boots.
It would probably be just a basic and common armor, similar to maybe netch leather or something like that. Something relatively cheap and good, for people who can't afford chainmail or other better armor. Light armor, very easy to produce, relatively good protection, but low durability. Leather could offer worse protection, but better durability, for example.
There are still some issues with textures here and there, but I am afraid I won't be able to fix them. If somebody could help, I would appreciate it, but right now, it is beyond my abilities. Still, looks quite good in my opinion. What do you think?
Now, design wise, it is not the most creative thing, but it is very basic piece of equipment and I do think it could be quite common around Tamriel, just because it is so simple. Which is interesting, because Bethesda never put something like that in their games, probably thinking that it is "not fantasy enough". I don't think we should copy their thinking here.