You made a claim I'm simply asking you to prove your premise.
You said God has given you libertarian free will. Fine. CHAPTER AND VERSE IF YOU WOULD PLEASE. Your so called proof text mentions nothing about God giving you libertarian free will. You need Tom glasses to see it.
Then we can agree “it is not to difficult” in the sense that it is “not hidden from them”!
11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee , neither is it far off.
I mean, I'm not putting words in your mouth, right?
Can you please quote your verse again, and then red-bold the word, "able", since you say "God clearly states" that?
Then we can agree it is not to difficult in the sense that it is not hidden from them!
11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach.
11 “This command that I give you today is certainly not too difficult or beyond your reach.
11 “This commandment I am giving you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it too remote.
11 Surely, this commandment that I am commanding you today is not too hard for you, nor is it too far away.
I didn't ask for coincides. You said God has given you libertarian free will. So lets try again. Where are you told by God you were given libertarian free will??
Millions of Christians (who have studied the Bible backwards and forwards, in English and in the original languages) disagree with you.
There are millions of atheists, miillions of muslims, millions of everything. Appealing to numbers is the weakest argument possible.
Why should we throw away our brains and blindly accept your opinion?
I am asking you to use your brain but you fight that tooth and nail. John 6 has nothing to do with free will or election, and it has been fulfilled. Oh yeah, you will respond to everything I say EXCEPT that.
Besides, the discussion shouldn't be about the red herring of "Calvin", it should be about WHAT DOES THE BIBLE TEACH?
The bible teaches that john 6:39 was about the 12 disciples, and has been fulfilled. "Calvin" teaches that verse is about election and applies to an entirely different group, and is being fulfilled still. The false teacher gets exposed again, and his followers get upset.
Thats the simplest example, and it should be the easiest to understand.
That's why YOUR doctrine is the "false doctrine", not Calvin's.
All I did was highlight what the bible says, and compared it to adherents of calvins, and determined calvin and his adherents to be false teachers. Its pretty straightforward.
Where does the BIBLE teach "you have the free will to..."?
In the ot there exists "freewill offerings" and that same word is used across multiple situations, so the understanding was there. As well as places like joshua 24:15. You are free to willingly accept precept or reject it.
Two other posters are currently showing you the truth of the scriptures concerning free will, and you thumb your nose at the bible each time. Do you want me to give those same verses too, so you have a chance to say "NUH UH" to me too? I will go a different route.
But the Bible DOES teach in GENERAL, that our wills are not "free", but that they are "enslaved in sin"
There it is again, the enslavement is not of the will, but of the body (members). Thoughts enter into the heart and become actions, and sinful actions enslave after one yields themselves.
Romans 6:16, one yields themselves righteous by obedience too. Its just downright goofy to think that paul would write that while thinking a person cant actually do it.
Its impossible to please God without faith, and Jesus also taught that faith comes before regeneration (john 5:24). Theres a whole 'nother thread about that. Paul makes the statement in romans 8:8 concerning the mind, which again, is renewed first. The flesh is sinful (romans 8:3) and enslaved in/by sin (romans 6:19), which is why paul says to be renewed by the spirit of your mind (romans 12:1-2).
"enslaved" is the OPPOSITE of "free" (in case you weren't aware).
A persons mind isnt their flesh (in case you werent aware).
"inability" is the OPPOSITE of "free" (in case you weren't aware).
Unable isnt the same as unwilling (in case you werent aware).
Expecting us to blindly accept your false teachings, when the Bible clearly teaches against you, THAT is "the weakest argument possible".
I am asking you to use your brain but you fight that tooth and nail.
I DO "use my brain".
That's why I know you teach falsehood.
I'd have to give myself a frontal lobotomy to blindly accept your false teachings.
And fallaciously and falsely accusing me of "not using [my] brain", simply because I reject your false teachings, is insulting and not Christian.
John 6 has nothing to do with free will or election, and it has been fulfilled.
You offer no reasons to accept your false claim above.
Who died and made YOU the boss of what "the Bible teaches"?
I can read the Bible just as well as you can.
I can even read it in Greek.
When you tell me that "the Bible teaches that...", I can read the Bible, and I can see that you are WRONG.
To ignore that you are wrong, and blindly accept your false teachings anyway, is asking me to turn off my brain.
And I'm sorry, but I REFUSE to do that, simply because it apparently bruises your ego.
john 6:39 was about the 12 disciples, and has been fulfilled.
And you haven't demonstrated it to be true.
So I reject your FALSE teachings.
"Calvin" teaches that verse is about election and applies to an entirely different group, and is being fulfilled still. The false teacher gets exposed again, and his followers get upset.
I really don't care what "Calvin teaches", just as I really don't care what YOU teach.
I only care about what the BIBLE teaches.
Maybe you should lose your obsession with "Calvin"?
Oh, that's right.... You need his name as a label, and as an excuse to reject any Biblical teachings you don't happen to like.
We're talking about John 6, not John 17-18.
You clearly don't know the first thing about studying the Bible.
And all *I* did was highlight what the Bible says, and compared it to the adherents of Arminians and Pelagians, and determined that they and you are FALSE teachers. "Its [sic] pretty straightforward".
In the ot there exists "freewill offerings" and that same word is used across multiple situations, so the understanding was there.
The Hebrew word translated as "freewill" in those verses simply means "voluntary", and refers to any sacrifices over and above those prescribed by the law. It does NOT mean, "men have free will".
As well as places like joshua 24:15.
Sorry, but I've heard the same lame and bankrupt arguments for decades.
Joshua 24:15 doesn't teach, "men have free will".
And since you haven't even TRIED to make an argument that it does, there's nothing for me to need to respond to.
You are free to willingly accept precept or reject it.
You are simply ASSUMING your imaginary "free will".
God COMPELS me to reject your abuse and twisting of His holy word.
Two other posters are currently showing you the truth of the scriptures concerning free will, and you thumb your nose at the bible each time.
I have NEVER "thumbed my nose at the Bible".
I simply thumb my nose at your blasphemous MISREPRESENTATIONS of the Bible.
If you don't understand the difference, then I suggest to you that you are not qualified to be a "Bible teacher".
Do you want me to give those same verses too, so you have a chance to say "NUH UH" to me too? I will go a different route.
Why waste my time simply repeating what others have said?
Unless you are admitting that you can't think for yourself?
But again, since you offer no valid exegesis, but only make bankrupt "claims", there is no reason for me to accept your false teachings.
You simply ASSUME "freely choose", and "free will choice", every chance you get.
You've simply brainwashed yourself into believing it's true.
Again, I suggest to you that being a "Bible teacher" is probably not the best career for you.
Its impossible to please God without faith, and Jesus also taught that faith comes before regeneration (john 5:24).
John 5:24 doesn't even MENTION "regeneration".
Thank you for the insult.
And once again, insulting people is NOT the sign of a good "teacher".
So now you have to REDEFINE terms to try to make them fit your false teachings.
No wonder you can NEVER be our "teacher".
We don't need "apostolic evidence".
The word of God isn't needed by the adherents of TULIP.
No point can be sufficiently made with "everyone else is doing it". Appealing to large numbers just shows that your argument cannot stand on its own.
Neither is falsely accusing me of demanding blind acceptance. You brought up brains and blindness, if you had such a great and valid position such inflammatory language would not be necessary. But you have no valid argument, so here we are.
John John 17:12 proves that what Jesus says in john 6:39 is about the 12. John 18:9 proves that what Jesus said about the 12, has already been fulfilled. False teaching suggests john 6:39 is about the elect, and is still being fulfilled today. That goes against clear and concise bible teaching. Calvinism (and any other doctrine that mishandled this passage) is false.
This shows you must resort to a personal attack, because you cannot actually refute anything I've said.
So now instead of discussing the bible, I have to take the time to remind everyone that I never said I was the boss of anything. Personal attacks are just as weak as appealing to numbers.
Another personal attack that adds nothing to the discussion. Do you have anything of any real substance to add?
Repeating a false claim doesnt make it true, so telling me I'm wrong over and over again doesnt help your case.
Odd that you have such a problem with me mentioning calvin when this very board bears his name.
Another false personal attack. I am as free to mention calvin on the CALVINISM board as you are to accept his false teachings.
We are talking about whether or not john 6 applies to anyone today. That answer is no, because careful bible study reveals that what Jesus said in john 6 applied to the 12 and has already been fulfilled (see john 17 and 18).
This is what most of these talks are reduced to: a person telling me free will doesnt mean free will.
Romans 6:16 and joshua 24:15 are parallel verses. When johsua says "choose this day who you will serve", paul makes it clear that the understanding is one "yields himself" to that choice, and it is his will that is free to choose while the "members" are whats enslaved if a person chooses sin. You falsely claim mans "will" is enslaved when it isnt.
This is just a bunch of filler. Non answers simply there to take up space.
You reject where paul says that our members are the servants of sin (romans 6:19)? False teaching says the will is enslaved.
Another non answer. What does paul mean by "yield yourselves servant to obey" in romans 6:16? Or "you yielded your members" servants in verse 19?
More non answers. You wont even touch romans 6, like you wont touch john 17 and 18. Your false teaching says mans will is enslaved, paul says his body is. Deal with that.
I am afraid to even ask what you think "regeneration" means.
If I am being insulting, so were you when you said it first. You still havent dealt with your error in saying the will is enslaved to sin, when the bible says the flesh is whats actually enslaved.
Have you ever heard the phrase "willing and able"? Those two words are necessary because they mean different things. You conflate the two, laugh at yourself, and then call me a false teacher for knowing how to use a dictionary. Our will is does not server sin, our "members" (flesh) does. Even paul says that his will is to do the things of Christ, but is at constant battle with his sinful flesh (romans 7:23), which is the same point Jesus made (matt 26:41). You havent accounted for any of this.
Last edited by cadwell; 02-21-19, 07:04 PM.
So you're simply ASSUMING your position, and then fallaciously shifting the burden of proof to your opponent.
That's not a valid hermeneutic.
And you continue to be unable to provide a valid argument.
No wonder you are so unconvincing.
The inability/unwillingness to even mount a defense of your false doctrine is the most deafening silence.
Where does the bible teach that our wills are enslaved to sin? You claim will isnt free because its enslaved, and that the bible teaches this, without actually showing where/how. Where does the bible "generally" teach this?