I understand (and happen to agree with) those who support Netanyahy, because they believe that ceding land to the Palestinians will not result in peace, because they are likely to use it to attack Israel, and the international community will prevent Israel from defending itself.
I get, though I don't agree with, those who support Herzog/Livni, because they believe that we must cede land to the Palestinians in order to ultimately gain international legitimacy and peace. These people are sincere in their belief that it is very dangerous to continue the current situation.
What I don't get at all is people who do not believe that peace with the Palestinians is possible, or that the international community will ever be happy with Israel, and who think that any concessions to the Palestinians are very dangerous, but who are willing to do so in exchange for money.
I am referring to United Torah Judaism. MK Litzman said that they are willing to go with either Netanyahu or Herzog - the same Herzog who said that he is open to having Ahmed Tibi on the security committee. Whoever reverses the budget cuts and gives money to the kollelim and yeshivos will get their support.
How can they disregard the long-term safety and security of the country in exchange for money?!
The tragic reason is, of course, because they are desperate, since their society is incapable of surviving without extensive financial support from others.
National security is not the only sphere in which the charedim have sold out for money. Whether one agrees with it or not, the charedim place paramount importance on keeping women away from public roles and appearances. Kol kavodah bas melech penima! Women cannot take on any positions of leadership, cannot speak in public in front of men, and even their pictures cannot appear in any publications.
But when it comes to getting votes in order to get in the government in order to get money, these principles are tossed out of the window. UTJ is running a television advertisement which features a woman!
All this reminds me of an old column by Jonathan Rosenblum (perhaps someone can find it for me) about matchmaking. He lamented that the charedi world, which in theory is about valuing ruchniyos over gashmiyos, ends up being the most obsessed with gashmiyos when it comes to matchmaking. They have forced themselves into a situation where the most crucial criterion is how much money the girl can provide, since the young men have no means of supporting themselves.
Chazal say that if a person does not teach his son a trade, it is as though he has taught him to steal. If a person has no means to support himself and becomes desperate for money, he will end up compromising his integrity. Once again, we see that Chazal were correct.
I think the article that you're looking for is "Avoiding Corruption in Shidduchim".
Well, for those who believe that money for haredi yeshivas, increased welfare, and continued haredi control over the Rabbanut are important issues, I understand voting for them. They are the most reliable party in terms of, you know what you will get.
I wouldn't call it selling out. I think that the Haredi party are saying that they don't have a position on national security. Let's face it, there are pros and cons to both sides of the coin. Politics is not mathematics or chemistry, it is an inaccurate science.
And that's why both Herzog and Bibi will attempt to get the Haredim inside their coalitions. They'll bow to the PM's position. If Bibi decides to shift left, they'll bow to his judgment.
BTW, the mediniyut differences bet Bibi and Herzog, are less than the mediniyut differences bet Bibi and Bayit Yehudi (If given the chance, Bibi would shift left and make land concessions - just don't ask him during the run up to elections).
For the record, I am Haredi kolel guy who supports Herzog.
Nick, there are certainly many people who don't have a position on national security, or who occupy some sort of intermediate position, such as many Yesh Atid supporters. However, charedim are not like that. They are extremely right wing - they don't believe that Palestinians have any rights, they don't believe that it is possible to attain international legitimacy, Eisav Sonei Yaakov, etc. But they will give that up in order to get in the goernment.
Must disagree. There are plenty of Haredi centrists and perhaps even a few leftists (some of my friends). Some of the mythical past Haredi Rabbinic leaders were pretty centrist such as Rav Shach and Rav Ovadia.
In fact, I think it would be cynical for a representative of those who do not serve in the army, and do not put there lives at risk, to have an opinion either way. They aren't taking much risk.
On the other hand, if I recall correctly, UTJ was never part of a Labor-led government. (Shas was in the Rabin and Barak governments.) It would be interesting to see if that streak will be broken.
I was going to write your point, but I scrolled down to read the other comments first. Charedim in Israel are not right wing. The Gedolim certainly aren't, not one would say a word against dis-engagement, and the hamon am follows their lead.
UTJ sat in Ehud Barak's gvt.
That's wht they are always 'deputy' minister to a nonexistent minister.
Or they truly believe what they say about their lifestyle and thus their hishtadlut is to do whatever they need to do to continue it in order to benefit the entire Jewish people as this, and this alone, is what the future turns on. Of course only HKB"H knows the real answer.
Sounds like you are describing an advanced, terminal psychopathology of mass solipsism.* There's gotta be a segula for that.
Oy, and the lady in the image capture is sitting down, practically elbow-to-elbow, beside a long-haired chiloni and looking at his Samsung V !!!
> How can they disregard the long-term safety and security of the country in exchange for money?!
Well if you remember they believe it's their learning that is what ensures Israel's safety and security so if Ahmed Tibi keeps their kollels open then any efforts he makes to harm Israel will be thwarted!
Do you have any proof that Litzman " do(es) not believe that peace with the Palestinians is possible, or that the international community will ever be happy with Israel, and who think that any concessions to the Palestinians are very dangerous"? If not, your criticism of him is baseless.
Just off the top of my head -- He said he would either go with Netanyahu or Herzog, who both have fundamentally different positions concerning the Palestinians. Already, that means he doesn't really care so much about national security, and just whether kollelim get supported.
Further, he said he'd prefer to go with Netanyahu (but would go with either). That indicates he actually agrees with Netanyahu's positions regarding concessions to Palestinians, but would sacrifice that to get more funding for kollelim.
I think it may be just the opposite. Maybe the haredi parties are selling out by their willingness to join Netanyahu and a government that will continue to needlessly antagonize Israel's best friend (the United States) and the rest of the international community while investing more money in settlements that may very well be dismanted in the future as part of a peace agreement, dispute the damage these things does to Israel's long term security. The previous Gerrer Rebbi, Rav Ovadiah Yosef, and Rav Shach, among others, expressed views that were consistent with the Labor party's position on these issues.
dlz, his criticism is valid as only a fool wouldnt realise all that.!
As for anonymous pathetic how can using hellenistic measures be histadlus did Mordechai say build an army no if it was Torah in truth they would say fast, daven, and learn but everyone knows its money money money!
Please at least have the intellectual honesty to admit that Chredim are morally bankrupt for joining the left.,... they would have jews removed from their homes to pay for more Torah ! A DISGRACE! There is either no understanding from them of the ramifications of their actions (enough reason to never vote for them) or their Torah is KRUM.
p.s. The problem is not Charedim per se - but politics!
"How can they disregard the long-term safety and security of the country in exchange for money?!"
Are you kidding me? When have they ever done anything but that?
What did you think their priorities were?
And now it seems as though they have gotten their wishes granted. Say a prayer for the poor Haredi kids about to be born / condemned to a live of poverty.
What happened to Dov Lipman? If he and his efforts were so important to Lapid why is he placed so low on the list that he won't even be in the knesset this time?
I don't agree with the Charedi 'pragmatism', but I don't think it's difficult to 'get'.
If they believe that having as many people as possible engaged in full-time Torah learning is the true source of the nation's security, then they really should be willing to align with anyone willing to financially and legally (draft-deferments) support the system. To them the actual government policies are Desllerian hishtadlus -- as long as they are somewhat reasonable it's good enough -- and don't matter in the least.
I agree with your various previous posts that this approach makes no logical sense and that individual and communities don't follow through when (economic) push comes-to-shove. Nevertheless, in this case theory IS consistent with practice.
Sorry to refocus back to your initial comment, but surely, Rabbi Slifkin, if this is the state of the nihilism of non-chareidi Israeli Judaism, you might as well as move back to Manchester. Please tell me from the entirety of human history one example of a successful military occupation that did not end in moral disaster and collapse of the occupier? We are not meant to be סומך על הנס! If we cannot take risks for peace, we surely lose the right to a state maintained at the expense of others who have equal moral right (and who is really to speak of religious right?!)? Is it our lot to become the disgrace of modern civilisation?!
Please tell me from the entirety of human history one example of a successful military occupation that did not end in moral disaster and collapse of the occupier?
Right off the bat, the US occupation of Japan and Germany after WWII.
We have taken repeated risks for peace--they have ended in failure. Oslo brought us suicide bombings and a second intifada (not really--they never stopped the first one!), the disengagement brought us first Kassams, then Grads and Katyushas. To give more land and hope that it bring peace is relying on a miracle, not refusing to give back land.
First let us see the Arabs tune down their rhetoric against Israel, teach their children to tolerate Israel as a Jewish state, and their media portray Jews in a positive light--then maybe it will be worth taking further "risks" for peace.
Arabs can have a state regardless of whether yiu like their rhetoric. After fifty years of millitary occupation I imagine your own rhetoric might get a little feisty as.well. You don't have to like them, they don't have to like you.
Moniker, the Arabs have 22 big, wonderful states, with the best one yet under development; ISIS. There is still some room for improvement on those and it might be a swell idea if they applied themselves to the task a tad harder instead of salivating for the unattainable and unnecessary. Might want to float that idea to them.
The Arabs become only more belligerent the more we have given. I don't expect giving more will suddenly make them change their rhetoric. The Arabs have always considered Israel even on the pre-'67 borders to be also stolen land. Just giving them the post-'67 borders won't change what they think of the pre-'67 borders.
I hope you're aware that our peace partner, Abbas, said also that the Kotel is also a Muslim holy site [it's where Mohammed tethered his magical horse on his midnight ride from Mecca], and he won't let Jews pray there if/when he'll be given the West Bank. You'll probably say that that is only his way of being a politician, and he didn't really mean it.
Temujin, I have this kinda weird obsession around ownership. There's no objective physical reality to ownership, yet if I or a Palestinian lived in a house for several generations, I'd get this irrational attachment to it. I know, it's nuts..... really it would be better for everyone if I just slunk off elsewhere and started again from scratch. Everyone apart from me that is.
Perhaps it would be helpful to set out my deeply jaundiced worldview. I agree witj Yehuda on one thing. The Palestinian polity are by and large ignoble, horrible bigots. Where we diverge is that I think much the same about their Israeli equivalents. In fact I myself am a twisted and deeply flawed individual... and I extrapolate that everyone else is rather similar. To date nobody has disabused me of my theory. All very depressing I know.
It follows that I believe peace will cpme not from a mutual outpouring of the spirit of brotherhood an divine grace. It will come from a businesslike allignment of interests, when we are all so worn out from the mutual loathing that we just can't be bothered any more.
Moniker, a big oversuffed strawman. First you must distinguish actual ownership as it's normally undetstood from, let's say, manufactured claims based on hanging skeleton keys around one's neck, waving "deeds" picked up for a few dollars at the suk and claiming justification of multigenerational ownership to houses expropriated from Jews by Jordanians and Arab irregulars or ones sold by original Turkish owners to Jews.
As for your hypothesis that peace will come from a "businesslike allignment of interests, when we are all so worn out from the mutual loathing that we just can't be bothered any more," Temujin offers a more realistic suggestion: Peace will come when the "international community" tires of Muslim claims, runs out of money to support the "Palestinians" and Israel militarily defeats Islamic terrorism in its own heartland.
Wow this is a first! I never agree with Rabbi Slifkin but this post is spot on 100% correct.The delusional fellow who claims(kollel nick) that chareidim are not right wing is living on a different planet.BTW I have no doubt that the potential of a huge chariedi backlash from American chariedim should their Israeli counterparts consider joining a leftist coalition will prevent this travesty from happening.
About the Wye Memorandum--I understand that Netanyahu was willing to cede 13% of the West Bank, but in actuality only gave back around 3%. Barak ceded the other 10%.
I don't understand. Isn't the official charedi position that there shouldn't be a Jewish state at all?
One of the biggest shandas with the charedi community in Israel is its smallness of vision. They may harbor certain private beliefs about national security, but official "Torah Judaism" -- as represented by their MKs -- has no official beliefs on any national issue. Is Torah so narrow and circumscribed that it has nothing to say on the biggest issues facing the future of a country?
The official belief is that as long as the Charedi are supported learning Torah, the country will be fine. So far it has worked.
The annoying part is that its "Chareidim learning Torah" rather than "Jews learning Torah". The general society feels that Torah is important, and deserves gov't support at least as much as sports teams and even universities. But the idea that one gets to be part of this simply by virtue of the town you were born in?
They don't truly believe that. When it comes to all sorts of issues (like acquiring money for their yeshivos), they loudly declare my beliefs. My question is: Why don't they have official Torah beliefs -- which they vocalize -- concerning national issues? Why does the Torah, for them, only relate to personal and communal matters, but doesn't relate to the biggest stage: the national one?
Looks like you'll get both Bibi and Herzog.
Do you perhaps need professional help with your obsessive stance against charedim? The hatred you portray to less than 1% of the jewish nation who sit and learn Torah with the support and consent of their wives is mind boggling.
Are we so bad that you wipe you feet on us every day, yet the millions of Jews who don't keep Shabbos, the hundreds of thousands who relish pork, the thousands of Jews who are gay, etc etc etc don't get a mention by the Jewish worlds policeman?
Is all this "rational" or emotional?
Where is this hatred towards charedi lomdei torah and gedolei yisroel coming from?
Nosson, its never to late to do teshuva. As you mature you will probably be less fiery against charedim but why not start early?
> Are we so bad that you wipe you feet on us every day, yet the millions of Jews who don't keep Shabbos, the hundreds of thousands who relish pork, the thousands of Jews who are gay, etc etc etc don't get a mention by the Jewish worlds policeman?
Funny, I don't get flyers in the mail asking me to donate money to support Jews who are not keeping Shabbos or to pay for their pork.I do get flyers asking me to donate money to kollelim.
Oi, the amaratzus in the frumme community.
I have five bucks ( Canadian ) that says the religious parties will get together with the Arab parties to form some kind of block.
I usually agree with your point of view but I must strongly disagree with this article. You are basically comparing the charedim to whores.
That is not fair to whores for several reasons.
1. Whores are often trapped into their circumstances because of human trafficking or as runaways from abusive homes. Charedim are not trapped - they can get an education and can go to work. They just chose not to. Whores do not have that option.
2. Whores are not dependent on charity from society. Charedim are.
3. Whores provide a service and get paid for it. It is certainly a legitimate human need. Charedim provide no service. They may claim that they are protecting Israel because of learning Torah but they do not believe that themselves as witness their fleeing from dangerous areas in the last Gaza war. Remember, anyone can claim that what they are doing is good for society.
4. Whores do not consider themselves above everyone else. Charedim do.
Your comments are neither germane nor do they add to the discussion.
The points Rabbi Slifkin makes are compelling and important.
You are made of not such tough stuff, so maybe stop preaching your silliness.
>Please tell me from the entirety of human history one example of a successful military occupation that did not end in moral disaster and collapse of the occupier?
North America, the British occupation of Canada, the Norman occupation of England, the US occupation of Hawaii... I'm sure there's others.
Really? The English had a vote for the first 8-900 years after their occupation by the Normans? The Hawaiians had a vote? The Indians in American and Canada?
They didn't have a vote at the time and military repression certainly was needed for quite a while. Native Americans weren't given a universal right to vote across the US until the 1965 Voting Rights Act.
Moniker, you are a first class idiot. Of everything you have written, this proves it best.
Ahmad Tibi was a close friend of Arafat. You think that he can be trusted with sensitive security information?! You think that if he heard information that could be shared with the PA or Hamas to their benefit but to Israel's detriment, that he wouldn't share it?!
Another technicality--to be a minister, you have to have served in the IDF. [Shas representatives for the most part have done army service, UTJ reps not--so Shas can have ministers, UTJ can only take assistant minister posts.] Mohammed Zoabi will be able to be a minister someday (he's only 17 now, but he's on track to do IDF service), but "unfortunately" Tibi will not.
Sorry, I'm not that familiar with Mr Tibi's history And I dont think I'm alone. My suspicion is that neither do you and you grabbed the first negative thing you could find on Wikipedia to explain your stance on a man about whom the vast majority of your readership knownothing other then that his name is Ahmed, and yet are expected to feel an otherwise unexplained antipathy towards? Don't tell me this isn't about race.
OK, so do a minimal amount of research on him, and then tell me whether there is reasonable basis for being opposed to his being in a sensitive position on a security committee, or whether it must be racism. And I am not letting you post any more comments on this blog until you respond.
Also, if you really don't know anything about "Mr Tibi", then you really don't know anything about Israeli politics in general.
It is definitely not about race. If his name was, say, Gideon Levy, I also would have misgivings about him being in the Security Cabinet.
The first time I heard the name Ahmed Tibi was during the Oslo negotiations--whenever the name Ahmed Tibi was mentioned, they tagged on the phrase, "a close advisor to Yassir Arafat". Then the ridiculous happened that he was elected to be a Knesset member--upon which each Knesset member has to "pledge allegiance to the State of Israel"--at the same time while he's a close advisor to a vile man who is planning terrorist attacks and exhorting his people to become "hundreds and hundreds of shahidim".
Haikar chaser min hasefer. But anyway Rabbi Slifkin.Let us be clear. Can an Israeli Arab sit on the defence committee?
Yehudah - are you sure that a minister has to have served in the IDF? As far as UTJ goes, I understand that they themselves don't want to be full ministers, not that there is any legal impediment to that. (In fact, Menachem Begin and David Ben Gurion were never in the IDF).
But your frantic backpeddling has made you match positions with Herzog who was talking "in principle". And with crosscurrents.
Can an Israeli Arab serve in the cabinet in yoit opinion yes or no.?
Moniker, you are avoiding the question. I will answer your question after you answer mine. You accused me of being a racist for my being appalled at appointing Tibi to security positions. Then you said you don't know much about him. So do a minimal amount of research on him, and then tell me whether there is reasonable basis for being opposed to his being in a sensitive position on a security committee, or whether it must be racism.
A little hurt that my lyrical eloquence encapsulated in the single word "no" above has fallen on such unappreciative ears.
A Google search popped up that Salah Tarif of Labor was the first non-Jewish minister in Israel's history, in Sharon's govt in 2001. Race isn't relevant in whether a person is a minister, but loyalty to Israel is.
@dlz: Maybe I'm not correct about IDF service being a precondition for being a minister--Shimon Peres also never served in the army, but of course was Foreign Minister and Prime Minister.
Moniker, you seem to have unfortunately descended into name calling and trolldom. This basically makes your arguments unreadable.
"In the late forties he joined the Haganah and was assigned responsibility for manpower and arms."
The long-term safety and security of the country depends on the observance of the Torah in the nation as it was clearly stated in the Torah, and supporting yeshivot directly contributes to this cause.
well said lazar. the truth is while my leanings are very much to the right, it isn't clear what will more dangerous: ceding land or alienating ourselves from our closest (only?) ally. don't forget, the israeli's are amongst the "charedim" of the international community. If I were running america, I would probably drop them, after all, they have no oil, they place the US at odds with other countries etc... what the Israeli's do is shnor! please Obama! we have a wonderful cause, could you spare a dollar?
Adopt-a-Country! a revolutionary program to help countries that can't afford to cover their basic needs! how can you look a hungry MK in the eye?
Why do so many people have such a simplistic view of foreign policy? I guess because the fear mongerers have convinced all these sheeple. If the us-Israel relationship wasn't beneficial to the US, IT WOULDN'T EXIST. (And btw it didn't exist before 1967 and Jews did just fine). The US also gives billions in total to arab countries and to many others. If it wasn't somehow mutually beneficial the US wouldn't do these deals.
Consider for a moment the military cooperation on the anti missile system. Who benefits? Why, the US military industrial complex of course! (And Israel). Every rocket shot down comes with a monetary price tag. So, try to understand this. The US gives money to Israel for the specific purpose that Israel spends that money on US-produced weapons systems and in this example, a "royalty" so to speak for each shot down rocket to the US contractors and industries who provided engineering power and production in the collaboration that produced the missile defense system. Shall I distill it down to make it simple? It's a transfer of wealth from US tax payers to the federal govt to the us military industrial complex. The federal govt has direct interest in that for multiple reasons. It has nothing to do with whether the us president thinks the israeli pm is a stubborn little man. Or whether the us state dept is antisemitic and arab terrorist loving (it always has been). Stop this fear mongering. Israelis do not have to commit national suicide with a fakestinian state in order to appease some imaginary threat of decreased "friendship" (whatever that means). Let's do what is in our interest, consequences be what they will be.
Looks like the charedi parties dropped from 18 seats to 13, but will end up with more power. Only in Israel!
Gentleman (no ladies?), I have stopped allowing Moniker's comments to be posted. As ridiculous and abhorrent as I found his views, I was willing to let him post them, as long as they appeared to be well thought through and as long as he debated in a respectful manner. But after calling me a racist for my comment about Tibi, then admitting that he didn't know anything about the subject, and then refusing to respond to my request that he do some basic homework before issuing such a charge, I do not think that he deserves to continue participating here.
doesn't this put to the test the charedi claim that their chessed organizations supposedly look to help all of klal yisrael and not just charedim?