When it's shipped then sooner or later pictures will appear here or on Stummi's Forum.
It conveys absolutely nothing of value.
Worse still, is the fact that the cataloge description has not been corrected and is still misleading by referencing the 60822s use with a k83 , even though Marklin Service have replied last year saying that " .. it makes no sense ..."
While continuing to explore the product (m84 in this case) evidence of further shortcomings in the documentation are exposed.
I mention some here so as to group the items together initially, separate threads to discuss them may be spawned as required.
The m84 has 8 relays (SPST), not 4 as per the marketing documentation (implying SPDT). One for each port.
While the m84 is configured by default to act as pairs (Red / Green when you turn one on it turns his mate off - see CVs) they can also be configured to operate independently. In this configuration a command to a port (e.g. 1Green) will toggle it relay on if it was off or off it was on.
Limitation - As with the m83, with this toggling managed by the m84 it is impossible (currently) to send specific On/Off commands from a controller.
The CV table is missing references to allow for the configuration of features.
While some may be considered hacking a bit, the information is available (In the m84 CV template of the last CS2 update) and at least one, the HobbyLight dimmer function CV is REQUIRED in order to get the box to work.
Thanks for this great topic as it helps us all try and understand these new products. I have supplied a wiring diagram for LED lighting which I sent to Marklin service asking if it was the correct method, I'm still waiting for a reply.
The 1k resistor across the LED is used to suppress the LED glowing in the OFF position. The value can vary from 470R up to 1k. Measure the voltage across the LED and vary the resistor value so the voltage is below the minimum switch on voltage for the LED.
The other 1k resistor connected by the yellow wire is the current limiting resistor.
1. On Page 21 of the English instructions the values always require a maths solution.
As a default the pulse width value = 255 (100%) and the period value = 4 (.05sec x 4) should be specified.
I think a table showing the pulse width value (range 0-255) then (%) and the period value (range 0-255) then (%) would eliminate any maths problems for the customer.
2. Settings for individual outputs is misleading and confusing.
132 POM Period 0 – 255 Time interval between the pauses; 1 = 0.05 sec.
For Switching Funtion the value option (0-18 is a range of options) and is confusing as it isn't clear that the Switch value must be entered if present.
and CV 130 value=18 when the switch value is missing for the min. switching with end switch.
3. When setting up the decoder address CV1 and CV9 should be included in the table to help prevent errors when in DCC mode.
4. In the English Catalog for 2013/2014 on page 533 it states that the maximum current load is 3 amps. Is this for each output or does it mean 3 amps divided by 8 outputs = 375mA ?
5. In the catalog it states that the m83 decoder can be updated. I can't find any mention in the instructions how this can be done. Please tell me how.
6. Why is there no technical specifications in the instructions stating the maximum current for each output?
Is the decoder short circuit protected?
Is the decoder overload protected?
I hope over time my questions will be answered.
I think the m83 is well engineered on a 4 layer PCB. The switching components are robust and with the extra options and a competitive price Marklin is heading in the right direction.
I got a mail from Märklin. The 60822 is to comply with the EMC specifications in the EU.
"60822 ist dafür notwendig, dass die aktuellen EMV-Vorschriften bei einer externen Leistungsversorgung dieses Decoder auch eingehalten werden. Ein Betrieb ohne diese Entstörung ist aus juristischen Gründen nicht erlaubt."
Basically it prevents electromagnetic interference.
I'm afraid someone will have to spell this out for me step by step.
If I can use a m83/m84 natively from the track only (which has a distorted power wave form, generating numerous harmonics) , then how is it possible that a cleaner DC power source (66361/5) with less harmonics (theoretically none) is able to result in greater EMI generation?
Anyone with a m83/m84 has probably have noticed the high frequency audible tone that is emitted from the device. At this stage I put this down to the rectifying circuit, particularly needed for "track fed only" configurations and possibly with the PWM generator being used for dimming.
The most logical explanation for the need of an external interface (suppression unit) in the DC power feed line is to protect the PS from some backfeeding FROM the m83/m84.
Either way it seems to me that the fix, could be fixed (should be fixed = product recall) by a redesign and product recall.
Having to fork out 40E on a device that only costs 35E (plus PS= 50E) screams incompetence.
My apologies if I am missing something obvious to the rest of you.
.... I have supplied a wiring diagram for LED lighting which I sent to Marklin service asking if it was the correct method, I'm still waiting for a reply.
Yep!, information of the utmost importance.
I am no expert at all, but as far as I understand, the 60822 is not needed because the m83/84 is missing anything. It is needed because the 66361 PS lacks the functionality of the 60822 (apparently required by law in the EU). Basically if you could find a PS with the features of the 60822 and the same output as the 66361 you would be home free. Some times a PS have a little bulge around the cord before the output-plug. This is the same as the 60822.
No one says that it will actually generate any interference, but law requires the functionality of the 60822 to be present. To me, this is a big difference because it potentially makes all of this purely theoretical.
... Basically if you could find a PS with the features of the 60822 and the same output as the 66361 you would be home free.
Some times a PS have a little bulge around the cord before the output-plug. This is the same as the 60822.
Where are you getting this information ?
My guess, and I can only guess, is that the 66361 was made with the railbox in mind, which probably has a built-in "60822". Then along came the m83/m84. Either Märklin had to create a new PS for use with the m83/84 with a built-in 60822 or they could make an "add-on" for the 66361 in cases where it is used together with the m83/84.
I am not sure you could have built the 60822 into the m83/m84, because you are able to connect more decoders together in a chain.
I base it on the information about the 60822 being a unit that prevents interference (and does only that!).
I cannot reconcile the "(and does only that!)" with the Product Database.
"The k83/m83/m84 Universal Supply Unit is for supplying power to k83, m83, and m84 decoders from conventional Märklin transformers or from the 66361 and 66365 switched mode power packs.
One Universal Supply Unit is required per group of accessory decoders (note the maximum power limit!)."
While I do challenge the integrity of this description due to the k83 reference, I would appreciate some substance about the removal of the reference to conventional transformer.
The little bulge on many power supply units from different manufacturers is also there to prevent interference.
Just a bit of elaboration on the addressing methods of the m83/m84 and the noted observation that the address switches MAY no relied on.
- if the switches 1 to 9 made a NON zero address, then that address would takes priority.
In the later mode, attempts at programming of CV1 could be done (although not seen) but would be ignored and the hard coded DIP switch address would ALWAYS win out.
With the m83/m84, CV1 can be written to and will be active immediately even for a NONzero address in the DIP switch block.
This CV1 address will "stick" across power OFF/ONs - UNTIL THE DIP Address is CHANGED.
It is not until the DIP SW address is changed to anything other than 3 that the value of the switches is acknowledged and acted up.
I am just the messenger, I am just telling you what Märklin service told me. My question to Märklin was about the 60822 and the 66361 power supply. This might have influenced the answer from the service department, so perhaps they replied with that in mind, and left out what to do if I had an old conventional transformer. I do not know about that.
Great, it is not just me then! I can confirm this. I thought I was safe using the DIP-switches, but no. I hope an update comes around that will fix this problem, if at all possible.
Yet another reason to always use some sort of isolated track for programming.
.. "The DCC system supports up to 9999 different addresses"
this does not account for the fact that we are talking about accessory decoders which have their own address space of a lesser 512(9 bits for basic) with a specialised extension offering 2048 (11 bits) in theory. The basic mode is used for devices , like the m8x, that have 8 ports (usually considered as 4 pairs) - thus 2048 pairs or 4096 individual ports are addressable.
Should a controller (by choice or design) use a subset of this it should not be referred to as a DCC support issue, similarly if a system finds a creative way to utilise bits reserved or otherwise defined in DCC - then it is not DCC.
As has been reported, this is not being seen in practice - probably a bug.
makes no reference the m83 or a binary addressing table.
I am needing to use multiple decoders to connect my older k track solenoid switches to a CS2 & I have settled on using the m83. Has anyone used the m83 with an external power supply & if so, has anyone used a cheaper supply (i.e. from radioshack) ... if so what specs?
These power supplies have a 2A rating yet the 60831 is noted ad supporting a 3A capacity.
the use of 60821s may also need to be taken into consideration.
Other unknown consideration relate to the baying/daisy-chaining of multiple 60831/41s and if the 3A rating noted is specific to a single 60831 or relates to the total current allowed for the whole chain.
Personally, I am tending to consider the 60831 as a dual purpose product and thus wiring in 2 different ways.
While having an external power option sounds good, the logistics of wiring each and every one with its own PS causes the idea to loose its lustre.
- For advanced function mode , where loads a constant (Light features, motor controls) I think the external PS is mandatory. However, the logistics of assessing the power requirements and wiring up potentially one PS per m83 needs to be thought through when it comes to locating items under the layout.
A number of modelers will say that all you need is a single big 19V DC power supply and to run a pair of wires around the layout and tapping off to each m83. While this is possible, manufacturers like Marklin cannot quantify the unknown, as it relates to compliance requirements for safety, health, interference etc and therefore we are unlikely to see anything from them in writing other than "not covered under their warrantee"
I am forever hopeful that the 66361/66365 restriction will be extended, at least to their 60061/60101. In doing so they may have to bring out a variant of the 60200 with a fixed 2.5mm DC power connector(s), in order to be able to meet commercial compliance requirements.
Yes you can use MS2 with digital box as power feeder to m84.
Just simple follow how to connect with two wires,brown and red to m84.
Unfortunately, the decoder did not turned on. There was no lights from the decoder.
I will presume you are referring to the lights (qty=8) next to the outputs - and that the 2 input lights, next to the Red and Brown wires are on/blinking and indicating that there is a connection with your controller.
If this is the case then what you are observing is the normal - out of the box from the factory state for these units.
The output/relay/led does not activate until you address it.
A logic disconnect needs to be made with the old k84, where EITHER the red output OR the green output would switch though to the common (middle) connection. In the m84 EACH output is controlled by separate relay and they can , potentially , be both off or both on.
The configuration of the m84 from the plant has all relays off but defined as pairs, so once you start using them they will subsequently behave like a k84 unless you reconfigure the operation of the unit.
Can I directly use power supply from MS2 ie 66361 to check the monitor lights?
Yes, the lights just above the red and brown terminal at the decoder did not turned on. I tested the decoder at my test layout hooked on ms2 and the track.
Yes, the lights just above the red and brown terminal at the decoder did not turned on.
I tested the decoder at my test layout hooked on ms2 and the track.
- or it is faulty.
This is a most fundamental indication, at this stage no configuration of the m84 is going to help, the Brown light will blink regularly, regardless of the address, as long as a digital signal is detected. If you get the read and brown wires around the wrong way the both LEDs will blink rapidly.
If you are sure the wires are connected correctly from the MS2 RailBox and the MS2 is on (not "stop") and is OK (able to control other locos), then there is something wrong with the m84.
Some further explanation is needed for this.
The m84 is actually a 8 port device with each port having individual capabilities.
The emphasis here is on "others" - note the plural , meaning none, one or more.
The CV#s are #136 to #143 for ports 1(1Red) to 8(4Green) respectively.
So now we have a feature - how might it be used?
One thought that comes to mind is within a fiddle yard, with 8 roads, each with a dead section. It is possible to set up the m84 so that a single button press would liven the relevant dead section AND make the other 7 dead/safe.
For example yard #4 (= 2G) uses CV#139 to determine the followup action. By setting this CV to a value of 247 ( 1(1)+2(2)+4(3)+16(5)+32(6)+64(7)+128(8) ) , the other 7 yards will be made safe.
An extension to this, is another feature of the m84 port that allows for a pulse, or minimum on time (mode 17). In the above scenario, by qualifying the port with a time for 10 seconds, the appropriate yard could be livened up long enough for a train to exit and then automatically return to a safe state.
As with other distributive processing, there is no feedback to the controller for it to display the actual state of the items ports correctly!
- Refer to the m83 documentation for the CV No.s and the mode values, some do not work (Zoom/Mars) as they have no meaning for a on/off relay, however the blinks and flashes do.
- A qualification on the m83 documentation is that the period multiplier for the m84 is one-second (not 0.05 of a second) - thus a value of 1 means 1 second.
What can you imagine doing with these features on your layout?
Programmes M84 with Control unit 6021.
I had been expecting some elaboration on this from Marklin, however I had hoped that it would be via an update to the original manuals (for both the m83 and m84) along with other needed clarification.
Sometimes Marklin have a story to tell but they are slow to recognize the fact that, not only will telling it display their prowess but it will reduce, if not eliminate, confusion.
Firstly, the process in the document is the same for the m83 as for the m84!
I will go out on a limb here and give credit to Marklin for finding a POM (equivalent) mechanism that allows for the configuration of an individual M8x unit without having to un-wire all other units from the layout.
3. Press a button on the Keyboard for the output to be changed (example: 1).
This step does not need to be at step 3 as shown. I had worked out that performing it between step 1 and 2 was more convenient.
After further observation it appears that the last (MM accessory command) address will be used - even if that command was sent prior to the last power off.
So, the M8x units must be CONSTANTLY listening for any address and if it sees one of its own then, in addition to performing the required operation, it will prime itself just in case, sometime in the future a programming sequence comes along. If the unit detects an address that is not one of its own it will defuse the primed state and ignore any future attempt to enter the programming mode.
15. Press a button on the Keyboard for the output to be changed (example: 1).
Normally (on a decoder reconfigure) pressing the stop key (step 14) will end the process and drop the decoder out of programming mode. With the M8x devices it is important to "finalize" the process by performing this step - untill you do so the M8x will stay primed for programming.
The ramification of not doing this finalization step becomes clear if you are in the process of configuring multiple devices.
For example, if I had completed configuring module 1(1-4) up to step 14 and now wanted to do module 2(5-7) I would start the second units process by entering an address (for example 5) and then continue with the 6021 reset - entering the "80" and pressing reverse while pressing go.
HERES THE RUB - because I had not completed step 15 and tested one of the addresses (1-4), module 1 still thinks it is in programming mode and will respond, along with module 2, by entering the slow flash stage - awaiting a CV number.
As I mentioned above - this can even be observed after an extended power off - something in the M8x unit remembers that it is in programming state.
But WHY - I hear you cry ?
Because the 6021-Register programming sequence incorporates a couple of Power Off/ON cycles AND we want to select a specific module by the last used address, there is a need to retain the state within the m8x unit - at least for a short time. But of course if you retain a state across a power off/on, you have to provide a mechanism to reset that state. The designed way to do this is by activating one of its recognized addressed as soon as possible after you power off and power back on.
Not mentioned in the new document (but mentioned in the other 6021 programming document http://mediencms.maerkli...ogrammieren_mit_6021.pdf ) is the reminder that the 6021 does not like "00" so in order to enter a "0" value for a CV you make use of "80"
This means press and hold the "Stop" and "Go" UNTIL THE DISPLAY GOES BLANK.
AFTER you release the keys , you will observe the "99" blink in the display.
The steps 6 and 9 references "the diode"
This "diode" is actually the pair of LEDs adjacent to the Red and Brown command wire terminals. When in programming mode they will both blink in unison.
The reference to "blink slowly" and "blink rapidly" are legacy terms and while representative in their description are wrong.
- the only indication of an update is the right led (by brown dot) pulsing on for marginally longer than a normal "command blink".
- when editing a keyboard accessory, there is no (helpful) reference to m83,m84,60831,60841 - the catch all term is "New multifunction decoder"
- no help in the tool for MM programming.
"The decoder can also be fed from a separate switched-mode power pack 66361. In addition to this power pack, a suppressor unit 60822 would be required. Important: Without the use of this extra unit, compliance with the regulations on electromagnetic compatibility (EMC) cannot be guarantied. Please therefore never fail to use this electronic unit."
It then states that further information will be available in one of the next issues of the magazine.
I would guess this means that you can use it without the 60822 - on your own "risk"?
It's in the product database now.
I think you mean ..
Occasionally they offer tidbits with a hint of some far off vision, but usually they contain inaccuracies that, unfortunately, call into question the integrity of the rest of the article. The verbose and waffly composition doesn't help the ease of reading - much less the uptake of what pertinent information may be hidden within.
As it relates to the 60821/60822/60831/60841 I am in two minds at to whether these articles have some recovery intent for poor product management and product development or if they are part of the conspiracy and are just seeding more misinformation.
You know, I was debating myself whether or not to update the thread with this information, simply because I was not sure how I might get punched in the face. Now I know. I do not think you are being very nice.
I think the article makes perfect sense when comparing to what else I know about the decoder and the 60822.
I do not think you are being very nice.
I wasn't trying to be nice.
IMHO Marklin are furnishing their customers with incomplete and mis-information, therefore those customers should know about it.
I have attempted to add perspective as experience provides it - I hope other will do the same so that we can all be better informed.
In too may instances the information has thrown up more questions than answers and I am still waiting.
I am trying to connect a C-turnout with motor 74491 to a M84, but I am not getting anything out of it.
How should the wiring be?
Can I use it at the same time with the Hobby Signals?
Please help me, as this is driving me crazy and I can't move on with my project.
I do appreciate the effort and research being put into the topic.
However, for me the whole speculation of what the units may or may not do is making it confusing to read through.
Motor 74491 is an switch magnet motor and you must use momentary contacts m83,not m84 which are permanent contacts.
Anyone has any idea on how to set the m84 so that input 1 would trigger both output 1r and 2r??
Is there also a Turn On mask? From entry one can I turn on 1R and 2R for example? Where did you find all these data?
... Is there also a Turn On mask? From entry one can I turn on 1R and 2R for example? Where did you find all these data?
I am unaware of a "Turn On Mask"
The data about the "Turn Off mask" is from the MagCV file for the 60841 that came with the CS2 update at the beginning of the year.
1) For those who downloaded an original 60841 manual, you may be interested in doing a refresh.
- - schematic for the use of the external trigger ports.
- as shown on page 14, the Circuit track implies a return circuit through the rail.
Peter, for some one not completely familiar with all the settings could the instructions be confusing, especially following instructions ?
Question: is mode=129 (continuous on) supported ??
But this ties in with a 66361/5 36VA (=2 Amps) so only one m83/m84 can be used in a chain.
No specification (other than Max=500mA) is given for the motor to be used. As Marklin do not have a motor to compare with some measurements are needed.
The motor control is connected to the terminal clips for turnouts on the m83 decoder. Maximum load for motor control is 500 milliamps.
The required CV settings for operation can only be adjusted in the DCC mode. When doing this bear in mind the operating instructions for the m83 decoder (Pages 20-21). The settings remain preserved and in effect in MM/fx.
I have just received the 60831 m83 Decoder (well, 2 weeks ago). Anyone wants to see some pics and/or some details from the instructions, please let me know. Would be happy to help.
It´s very nice of you...but we do already have pictures and supports togehter with info here.
- - Contents noted as "4 x 197537 Turnout motor front end circuit board"
- 4 x "Turnout motor front end circuit boards"
- - note: the third item shown, had its heat shrink removed after delivery.
(above image) Closeup of a single circuit board with "protective heat shrink removed"
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