٢ـ عِدَّةٌ مِنْ أَصْحَابِنَا عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ خَالِدٍ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عَلِيٍّ عَنْ عَبْدِ الرَّحْمَنِ بْنِ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ أَبِي هَاشِمٍ عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَسِّنٍ الْمِيثَمِيِّ قَالَ كُنْتُ عِنْدَ أَبِي مَنْصُورٍ الْمُتَطَبِّبِ فَقَالَ أَخْبَرَنِي رَجُلٌ مِنْ أَصْحَابِي قَالَ كُنْتُ أَنَا وَابْنُ أَبِي الْعَوْجَاءِ وَعَبْدُ الله بْنُ الْمُقَفَّعِ فِي الْمَسْجِدِ الْحَرَامِ فَقَالَ ابْنُ الْمُقَفَّعِ تَرَوْنَ هَذَا الْخَلْقَ وَأَوْمَأَ بِيَدِهِ إِلَى مَوْضِعِ الطَّوَافِ مَا مِنْهُمْ أَحَدٌ أُوجِبُ لَهُ اسْمَ الانْسَانِيَّةِ إِلا ذَلِكَ الشَّيْخُ الْجَالِسُ يَعْنِي أَبَا عَبْدِ الله جَعْفَرَ بْنَ مُحَمَّدٍ (عَلَيْهما السَّلام) فَأَمَّا الْبَاقُونَ فَرَعَاعٌ وَبَهَائِمُ فَقَالَ لَهُ ابْنُ أَبِي الْعَوْجَاءِ وَكَيْفَ أَوْجَبْتَ هَذَا الاسْمَ لِهَذَا الشَّيْخِ دُونَ هَؤُلاءِ قَالَ لانِّي رَأَيْتُ عِنْدَهُ مَا لَمْ أَرَهُ عِنْدَهُمْ فَقَالَ لَهُ ابْنُ أَبِي الْعَوْجَاءِ لا بُدَّ مِنِ اخْتِبَارِ مَا قُلْتَ فِيهِ مِنْهُ قَالَ فَقَالَ لَهُ ابْنُ الْمُقَفَّعِ لا تَفْعَلْ فَإِنِّي أَخَافُ أَنْ يُفْسِدَ عَلَيْكَ مَا فِي يَدِكَ فَقَالَ لَيْسَ ذَا رَأْيَكَ وَلَكِنْ تَخَافُ أَنْ يَضْعُفَ رَأْيُكَ عِنْدِي فِي إِحْلالِكَ إِيَّاهُ الْمَحَلَّ الَّذِي وَصَفْتَ فَقَالَ ابْنُ الْمُقَفَّعِ أَمَّا إِذَا تَوَهَّمْتَ عَلَيَّ هَذَا فَقُمْ إِلَيْهِ وَتَحَفَّظْ مَا اسْتَطَعْتَ مِنَ الزَّلَلِ وَلا تَثْنِي عِنَانَكَ إِلَى اسْتِرْسَالٍ فَيُسَلِّمَكَ إِلَى عِقَالٍ وَسِمْهُ مَا لَكَ أَوْ عَلَيْكَ قَالَ فَقَامَ ابْنُ أَبِي الْعَوْجَاءِ وَبَقِيتُ أَنَا وَابْنُ الْمُقَفَّعِ جَالِسَيْنِ فَلَمَّا رَجَعَ إِلَيْنَا ابْنُ أَبِي الْعَوْجَاءِ قَالَ وَيْلَكَ يَا ابْنَ الْمُقَفَّعِ مَا هَذَا بِبَشَرٍ وَإِنْ كَانَ فِي الدُّنْيَا رُوحَانِيٌّ يَتَجَسَّدُ إِذَا شَاءَ ظَاهِراً وَيَتَرَوَّحُ إِذَا شَاءَ بَاطِناً فَهُوَ هَذَا فَقَالَ لَهُ وَكَيْفَ ذَلِكَ قَالَ جَلَسْتُ إِلَيْهِ فَلَمَّا لَمْ يَبْقَ عِنْدَهُ غَيْرِي ابْتَدَأَنِي فَقَالَ إِنْ يَكُنِ الامْرُ عَلَى مَا يَقُولُ هَؤُلاءِ وَهُوَ عَلَى مَا يَقُولُونَ يَعْنِي أَهْلَ الطَّوَافِ فَقَدْ سَلِمُوا وَعَطِبْتُمْ وَإِنْ يَكُنِ الامْرُ عَلَى مَا تَقُولُونَ وَلَيْسَ كَمَا تَقُولُونَ فَقَدِ اسْتَوَيْتُمْ وَهُمْ فَقُلْتُ لَهُ يَرْحَمُكَ الله وَأَيَّ شَيْ‏ءٍ نَقُولُ وَأَيَّ شَيْ‏ءٍ يَقُولُونَ مَا قَوْلِي وَقَوْلُهُمْ إِلا وَاحِدٌ فَقَالَ وَكَيْفَ يَكُونُ قَوْلُكَ وَقَوْلُهُمْ وَاحِداً وَهُمْ يَقُولُونَ إِنَّ لَهُمْ مَعَاداً وَثَوَاباً وَعِقَاباً وَيَدِينُونَ بِأَنَّ فِي السَّمَاءِ إِلَهاً وَأَنَّهَا عُمْرَانٌ وَأَنْتُمْ تَزْعُمُونَ أَنَّ السَّمَاءَ خَرَابٌ لَيْسَ فِيهَا أَحَدٌ قَالَ فَاغْتَنَمْتُهَا مِنْهُ فَقُلْتُ لَهُ مَا مَنَعَهُ إِنْ كَانَ الامْرُ كَمَا يَقُولُونَ أَنْ يَظْهَرَ لِخَلْقِهِ وَيَدْعُوَهُمْ إِلَى عِبَادَتِهِ حَتَّى لا يَخْتَلِفَ مِنْهُمُ اثْنَانِ وَلِمَ احْتَجَبَ عَنْهُمْ وَأَرْسَلَ إِلَيْهِمُ الرُّسُلَ وَلَوْ بَاشَرَهُمْ بِنَفْسِهِ كَانَ أَقْرَبَ إِلَى الايمَانِ بِهِ فَقَالَ لِي وَيْلَكَ وَكَيْفَ احْتَجَبَ عَنْكَ مَنْ أَرَاكَ قُدْرَتَهُ فِي نَفْسِكَ نُشُوءَكَ وَلَمْ تَكُنْ وَكِبَرَكَ بَعْدَ صِغَرِكَ وَقُوَّتَكَ بَعْدَ ضَعْفِكَ وَضَعْفَكَ بَعْدَ قُوَّتِكَ وَسُقْمَكَ بَعْدَ صِحَّتِكَ وَصِحَّتَكَ بَعْدَ سُقْمِكَ وَرِضَاكَ بَعْدَ غَضَبِكَ وَغَضَبَكَ بَعْدَ رِضَاكَ وَحُزْنَكَ  بَعْدَ فَرَحِكَ وَفَرَحَكَ بَعْدَ حُزْنِكَ وَحُبَّكَ بَعْدَ بُغْضِكَ وَبُغْضَكَ بَعْدَ حُبِّكَ وَعَزْمَكَ بَعْدَ أَنَاتِكَ وَأَنَاتَكَ بَعْدَ عَزْمِكَ وَشَهْوَتَكَ بَعْدَ كَرَاهَتِكَ وَكَرَاهَتَكَ بَعْدَ شَهْوَتِكَ وَرَغْبَتَكَ بَعْدَ رَهْبَتِكَ وَرَهْبَتَكَ بَعْدَ رَغْبَتِكَ وَرَجَاءَكَ بَعْدَ يَأْسِكَ وَيَأْسَكَ بَعْدَ رَجَائِكَ وَخَاطِرَكَ بِمَا لَمْ يَكُنْ فِي وَهْمِكَ وَعُزُوبَ مَا أَنْتَ مُعْتَقِدُهُ عَنْ ذِهْنِكَ وَمَا زَالَ يُعَدِّدُ عَلَيَّ قُدْرَتَهُ الَّتِي هِيَ فِي نَفْسِي الَّتِي لا أَدْفَعُهَا حَتَّى ظَنَنْتُ أَنَّهُ سَيَظْهَرُ فِيمَا بَيْنِي وَبَيْنَهُ عَنْهُ عَنْ بَعْضِ أَصْحَابِنَا رَفَعَهُ وَزَادَ فِي حَدِيثِ ابْنِ أَبِي الْعَوْجَاءِ حِينَ سَأَلَهُ أَبُو عَبْدِ الله (عَلَيْهِ السَّلام) قَالَ عَادَ ابْنُ أَبِي الْعَوْجَاءِ فِي الْيَوْمِ الثَّانِي إِلَى مَجْلِسِ أَبِي عَبْدِ الله (عَلَيْهِ السَّلام) فَجَلَسَ وَهُوَ سَاكِتٌ لا يَنْطِقُ فَقَالَ أَبُو عَبْدِ الله (عَلَيْهِ السَّلام) كَأَنَّكَ جِئْتَ تُعِيدُ بَعْضَ مَا كُنَّا فِيهِ فَقَالَ أَرَدْتُ ذَلِكَ يَا ابْنَ رَسُولِ الله فَقَالَ لَهُ أَبُو عَبْدِ الله (عَلَيْهِ السَّلام) مَا أَعْجَبَ هَذَا تُنْكِرُ الله وَتَشْهَدُ أَنِّي ابْنُ رَسُولِ الله فَقَالَ الْعَادَةُ تَحْمِلُنِي عَلَى ذَلِكَ فَقَالَ لَهُ الْعَالِمُ (عَلَيْهِ السَّلام) فَمَا يَمْنَعُكَ مِنَ الْكَلامِ قَالَ إِجْلالاً لَكَ وَمَهَابَةً مَا يَنْطَلِقُ لِسَانِي بَيْنَ يَدَيْكَ فَإِنِّي شَاهَدْتُ الْعُلَمَاءَ وَنَاظَرْتُ الْمُتَكَلِّمِينَ فَمَا تَدَاخَلَنِي هَيْبَةٌ قَطُّ مِثْلُ مَا تَدَاخَلَنِي مِنْ هَيْبَتِكَ قَالَ يَكُونُ ذَلِكَ وَلَكِنْ أَفْتَحُ عَلَيْكَ بِسُؤَالٍ وَأَقْبَلَ عَلَيْهِ فَقَالَ لَهُ أَ مَصْنُوعٌ أَنْتَ أَوْ غَيْرُ مَصْنُوعٍ فَقَالَ عَبْدُ الْكَرِيمِ بْنُ أَبِي الْعَوْجَاءِ بَلْ أَنَا غَيْرُ مَصْنُوعٍ فَقَالَ لَهُ الْعَالِمُ (عَلَيْهِ السَّلام) فَصِفْ لِي لَوْ كُنْتَ مَصْنُوعاً كَيْفَ كُنْتَ تَكُونُ فَبَقِيَ عَبْدُ الْكَرِيمِ مَلِيّاً لا يُحِيرُ جَوَاباً وَوَلَعَ بِخَشَبَةٍ كَانَتْ بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ وَهُوَ يَقُولُ طَوِيلٌ عَرِيضٌ عَمِيقٌ قَصِيرٌ مُتَحَرِّكٌ سَاكِنٌ كُلُّ ذَلِكَ صِفَةُ خَلْقِهِ فَقَالَ لَهُ الْعَالِمُ فَإِنْ كُنْتَ لَمْ تَعْلَمْ صِفَةَ الصَّنْعَةِ غَيْرَهَا فَاجْعَلْ نَفْسَكَ مَصْنُوعاً لِمَا تَجِدُ فِي نَفْسِكَ مِمَّا يَحْدُثُ مِنْ هَذِهِ الامُورِ فَقَالَ لَهُ عَبْدُ الْكَرِيمِ سَأَلْتَنِي عَنْ مَسْأَلَةٍ لَمْ يَسْأَلْنِي عَنْهَا أَحَدٌ قَبْلَكَ وَلا يَسْأَلُنِي أَحَدٌ بَعْدَكَ عَنْ مِثْلِهَا فَقَالَ أَبُو عَبْدِ الله (عَلَيْهِ السَّلام) هَبْكَ عَلِمْتَ أَنَّكَ لَمْ تُسْأَلْ فِيمَا مَضَى فَمَا عَلَّمَكَ أَنَّكَ لا تُسْأَلُ فِيمَا بَعْدُ عَلَى أَنَّكَ يَا عَبْدَ الْكَرِيمِ نَقَضْتَ قَوْلَكَ لانَّكَ تَزْعُمُ أَنَّ الاشْيَاءَ مِنَ الاوَّلِ سَوَاءٌ فَكَيْفَ قَدَّمْتَ وَأَخَّرْتَ ثُمَّ قَالَ يَا عَبْدَ الْكَرِيمِ أَزِيدُكَ وُضُوحاً أَ رَأَيْتَ لَوْ كَانَ مَعَكَ كِيسٌ فِيهِ جَوَاهِرُ فَقَالَ لَكَ قَائِلٌ هَلْ فِي الْكِيسِ دِينَارٌ فَنَفَيْتَ كَوْنَ الدِّينَارِ فِي الْكِيسِ فَقَالَ لَكَ صِفْ لِيَ الدِّينَارَ وَكُنْتَ غَيْرَ عَالِمٍ بِصِفَتِهِ هَلْ كَانَ لَكَ أَنْ تَنْفِيَ كَوْنَ الدِّينَارِ عَنِ الْكِيسِ وَأَنْتَ لا تَعْلَمُ قَالَ لا فَقَالَ أَبُو عَبْدِ الله (عَلَيْهِ السَّلام) فَالْعَالَمُ أَكْبَرُ وَأَطْوَلُ وَأَعْرَضُ مِنَ الْكِيسِ فَلَعَلَّ فِي الْعَالَمِ صَنْعَةً مِنْ حَيْثُ لا تَعْلَمُ صِفَةَ الصَّنْعَةِ مِنْ غَيْرِ الصَّنْعَةِ فَانْقَطَعَ عَبْدُ الْكَرِيمِ وَأَجَابَ إِلَى الاسْلامِ بَعْضُ أَصْحَابِهِ وَبَقِيَ مَعَهُ بَعْضٌ فَعَادَ فِي الْيَوْمِ الثَّالِثِ فَقَالَ أَقْلِبُ السُّؤَالَ فَقَالَ لَهُ أَبُو عَبْدِ الله (عَلَيْهِ السَّلام) سَلْ عَمَّا شِئْتَ فَقَالَ مَا الدَّلِيلُ عَلَى حَدَثِ الاجْسَامِ فَقَالَ إِنِّي مَا وَجَدْتُ شَيْئاً صَغِيراً وَلا كَبِيراً إِلا وَإِذَا ضُمَّ إِلَيْهِ مِثْلُهُ صَارَ أَكْبَرَ وَفِي ذَلِكَ زَوَالٌ وَانْتِقَالٌ عَنِ الْحَالَةِ الاولَى وَلَوْ كَانَ قَدِيماً مَا زَالَ وَلا حَالَ لانَّ الَّذِي يَزُولُ وَيَحُولُ يَجُوزُ أَنْ يُوجَدَ وَيُبْطَلَ فَيَكُونُ بِوُجُودِهِ بَعْدَ عَدَمِهِ دُخُولٌ فِي الْحَدَثِ وَفِي كَوْنِهِ فِي الازَلِ دُخُولُهُ فِي الْعَدَمِ وَلَنْ تَجْتَمِعَ صِفَةُ الازَلِ وَالْعَدَمِ وَالْحُدُوثِ وَالْقِدَمِ فِي شَيْ‏ءٍ وَاحِدٍ فَقَالَ عَبْدُ الْكَرِيمِ هَبْكَ عَلِمْتَ فِي جَرْيِ الْحَالَتَيْنِ وَالزَّمَانَيْنِ عَلَى مَا ذَكَرْتَ وَاسْتَدْلَلْتَ بِذَلِكَ عَلَى حُدُوثِهِا فَلَوْ بَقِيَتِ الاشْيَاءُ عَلَى صِغَرِهَا مِنْ أَيْنَ كَانَ لَكَ أَنْ تَسْتَدِلَّ عَلَى حُدُوثِهِنَّ فَقَالَ الْعَالِمُ (عَلَيْهِ السَّلام) إِنَّمَا نَتَكَلَّمُ عَلَى هَذَا الْعَالَمِ الْمَوْضُوعِ فَلَوْ رَفَعْنَاهُ وَوَضَعْنَا عَالَماً آخَرَ كَانَ لا شَيْ‏ءَ أَدَلَّ عَلَى الْحَدَثِ مِنْ رَفْعِنَا إِيَّاهُ وَوَضْعِنَا غَيْرَهُ وَلَكِنْ أُجِيبُكَ مِنْ حَيْثُ قَدَّرْتَ أَنْ تُلْزِمَنَا فَنَقُولُ إِنَّ الاشْيَاءَ لَوْ دَامَتْ عَلَى صِغَرِهَا لَكَانَ فِي الْوَهْمِ أَنَّهُ مَتَى ضُمَّ شَيْ‏ءٌ إِلَى مِثْلِهِ كَانَ أَكْبَرَ وَفِي جَوَازِ التَّغْيِيرِ عَلَيْهِ خُرُوجُهُ مِنَ الْقِدَمِ كَمَا أَنَّ فِي تَغْيِيرِهِ دُخُولَهُ فِي الْحَدَثِ لَيْسَ لَكَ وَرَاءَهُ شَيْ‏ءٌ يَا عَبْدَ الْكَرِيمِ فَانْقَطَعَ وَخُزِيَ فَلَمَّا كَانَ مِنَ الْعَامِ الْقَابِلِ الْتَقَى مَعَهُ فِي الْحَرَمِ فَقَالَ لَهُ بَعْضُ شِيعَتِهِ إِنَّ ابْنَ أَبِي الْعَوْجَاءِ قَدْ أَسْلَمَ فَقَالَ الْعَالِمُ (عَلَيْهِ السَّلام) هُوَ أَعْمَى مِنْ ذَلِكَ لا يُسْلِمُ فَلَمَّا بَصُرَ بِالْعَالِمِ  قَالَ سَيِّدِي وَمَوْلايَ فَقَالَ لَهُ الْعَالِمُ (عَلَيْهِ السَّلام) مَا جَاءَ بِكَ إِلَى هَذَا الْمَوْضِعِ فَقَالَ عَادَةُ الْجَسَدِ وَسُنَّةُ الْبَلَدِ وَلِنَنْظُرَ مَا النَّاسُ فِيهِ مِنَ الْجُنُونِ وَالْحَلْقِ وَرَمْيِ الْحِجَارَةِ فَقَالَ لَهُ الْعَالِمُ (عَلَيْهِ السَّلام) أَنْتَ بَعْدُ عَلَى عُتُوِّكَ وَضَلالِكَ يَا عَبْدَ الْكَرِيمِ فَذَهَبَ يَتَكَلَّمُ فَقَالَ لَهُ (عَلَيْهِ السَّلام) لا جِدَالَ فِي الْحَجِّ وَنَفَضَ رِدَاءَهُ مِنْ يَدِهِ وَقَالَ إِنْ يَكُنِ الامْرُ كَمَا تَقُولُ وَلَيْسَ كَمَا تَقُولُ نَجَوْنَا وَنَجَوْتَ وَإِنْ يَكُنِ الامْرُ كَمَا نَقُولُ وَهُوَ كَمَا نَقُولُ نَجَوْنَا وَهَلَكْتَ فَأَقْبَلَ عَبْدُ الْكَرِيمِ عَلَى مَنْ مَعَهُ فَقَالَ وَجَدْتُ فِي قَلْبِي حَزَازَةً فَرُدُّونِي فَرَدُّوهُ فَمَاتَ لا رَحِمَهُ الله.
 2. A number of our people have narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Khalid from Muhammad ibn Ali from ‘Abd al-Rahman ibn Muhammad ibn abu Hashim from Ahmad ibn Muhsin al-Maythami who said that I was with abu Mansur al-Mutatbbib who said the following. “One of my friends has said that he was with ibn abu al-‘Awja’ and ‘Abdallah ibn al-Muqaffa‘ in the holy Mosque of Makkah and ibn al-Muqaffa‘ said, “Do you see these creatures, pointing towards the location where people walk seven times around the Kabah‘? Of all these no one deserves to be called a human being accept that Shaikh sitting there, meaning thereby Imam abu ‘Abdallah . The rest is garble and beasts.” Upon this ibn abu al-‘Awja’ said, “For what reason do you call him a human being and not the rest?” Ibn al-Muqaffa‘ then replied, “Because I saw with him what I did not see with the others.” Ibn abu al-”Awja’ then said, “We must test your claim.” Ibn al-Muqaffa‘ then said, “I advise you not to do so lest you will lose whatever faith you have. Ibn abu al-‘Awja’ then said, “I do not think that is what you mean. I think you are afraid of failing to substantiate what you have just said about this man.” Ibn al-Muqaffa‘ then said, “If that is what you think then go to him and protect yourself as much as you can. Be strong as much as you can so you are not harnnessed and note all points against and in your favor. Ibn abu al-‘Awja’ then left and ibn al-Muqaffa‘ and I remained there. When ibn abu al-‘Awja’ returned he said, “Woe is you, O ibn al-Muqaffa‘. This is not a human being even though he lives in this world. He is a spiritual being but appears in the form of man whenever he wants the out world and turns into a spiritual being whenever he wants the inner world. That is the way he is.” Ibn al-Muqaffa‘ then asked, “How does that happen?” Ibn abu al-‘Awja’ then said, “I sat near him and when everyone had gone he turned to me and said, “If it is the way they (people walking around the Ka‘bah) say, which is true then they are saved and you are destroyed. If it is the way you say it is, which is not so then you and they are all equal.” I then asked, “May Allah be kind to you. What is it that we say and what is it that they say? We all say the same thing.” He said, “How can what you say be equal to what they say? They say that they will have a return, a day of receiving their rewards and penalties. They believe in a religion which says that in the heavens is the Lord and that they are habitable while you say that they are in ruins and there is nothing in them.”Ibn abu al-‘Awja’ has said, “I then found the opportunity to speak and I asked, “What then keeps this Lord, if it is true the way they say that He exists, from appearing to His creatures and call them to His worship so that no two people would oppose each other? Why is He hiding from them and has only sent messengers? If He would have been in direct contact with them it would have been more helpful to have faith in Him.” He then responded, “Woe is you, how someone who is already shown His power within you is hiding from you? He brought you up. You did not even exist. He made you grow when you were so small. He gave you strength and power when you were so weak and will make you weak again after being strong. He make you sick after being healthy and can give you good health after suffering sickness. He can make you happy after you experience anger and make you angry after being happy. He can make you sad after your joy and give you joy after sadness. He can give love after your experiencing hatred and hatred after enjoying love. He can give you determination after your uncertainty and uncertainty after having determination. He can give you strong desires after your experiencing dislike and dislike after having strong desires. He can give you willingness after experiencing fear and concerns and fear after having strong willingness. He can give you hope after despair and despair after having a great deal of hope. He can give you good remembrance of what you had no idea and remove what you may have had as a belief.” He kept reminding and counting for me the effects of His power within my soul that I could not deny and I begin to have a feeling that all that is between me and him will all appear in the open.” From the same source the following is narrated from a number of our people in a Marfu‘ manner as additional statements to the above discourse of ibn abu al-‘Awja’ with Imam abu ‘Abdallah . That abu al-‘Awja’ came the next day to the meeting of the Imam and sat down quietly. The Imam  said to him, “Would you like to review the issues we discussed yesterday?” He replied, “I did intend to do so, O son of the messenger of Allah.” The Imam then said, “It is strange that one who does not believe in Allah acknowledges the existence of the messenger of Allah.” He replied, “It is only the habit that made me say so.” The ‘Alim (the Imam) then asked, “What is it that keeps you quite?” He replied, “It is your excellence and awesome spiritual ability that hold my tongue back from speaking. I have seen many scholars and have debated many theologians but I never experienced such an awesome feeling from them as I feel in your presence.” The Imam then said, “ It may happen. I would like to open this session with a question to you. The Imam turned to him and asked, “Are you created or uncreated?” ‘Abdul Karim ibn abu al-‘Awja’ answered, “ I am uncreated.” The ‘Alim then asked him, “Describe for us then, how you might have been if you were created.” ‘Abdal Karim remained quiet and confused and began to scribble scrabble with a piece of wood, saying, long, wide, deep, short, moving and motionless all these are the qualities of His creatures.” The ‘Alim (Imam) then said, “If you do not know anything other than these as the qualities of the creation then consider yourself a creature because that is what you find within yourself that take place and come into existence.” ‘Abdal Karim then said, “You have asked me a question that no one before had ever asked and no one ever would ask afterwards.” Abu ‘Abdallah then said, “It is fine. I noticed that you did not ask any thing in the time past but how would you know that you will not ask any thing in future? Besides, O ‘Abdal Karim, what you said is against your notion that from the beginning all things are equal. How then you made them before and after? The Imam then said, “O ‘Abdal Karim let me explain it for you. Suppose if you had a bag with you full of pearls and someone asked you, “Is there a Dinar in your bag?” You then denied and said, “No, there is no Dinar in my bag.” The person then said, “Alright, then describe for me the qualities of the Dinar but you had no knowledge of the qualities of the Dinar. Could you deny the existence of the Dinar that was from the bag but you did not know about it?” he replied, “No, I would not deny.” The Imam then said, “The world is bigger, taller and wider than a bag. Perhaps in the world there is a creature as such that you do not know in whose case you would not be able to tell the qualities of the created from the non-created.” ‘Abdal Karim remained quiet but some of his people agreed to accept Islam and a few of them remained. He came again to the meeting of the Imam on the third day and said, “I like to reverse the question.” The Imam replied, “Ask whatever you like.” He then asked, “What is the proof that bodies did not exist and then they came into existence?” The Imam then said, “I have not seen anything small or large that on adding to it something of the same size would not make it bigger and in this there is a change and transformation from the first condition. If it, however, would have been eternal, there would have been no changing and transformation. What may cease to exist or change it may come into existence and may get destroyed, thus, with its existence after its none existence is entering into the state of coming into being and as being eternal this will take it into nothingness but the two qualities of being eternal and nothingness and the qualities of a contingent and something without a beginning in one thing do come together.” ‘Abdal Karim then said, “Suppose, I noticed that with a view to the two conditions you mentioned you considered it a proof of their contingency. If, however, things would remain small, despite the addition, then how would you prove their contingency?” The ‘Alim then said, “We speak of this universe that is already there. Were we to take it away and place another universe in its place nothingness would have, certainly, been a stronger proof of its contingency than its removal and its replacing with a different one. I, however, will answer you according to your assumption. If things would still remain small but it would certainly come into one’s thinking that whenever something like it added to another thing it then would be bigger. The fact that it can change is proof of its becoming temporal and in its changing condition is proof of its contingency. There is nothing beyond it for you, O ‘Abdal Karim. ‘Abdal Karim had nothing else to say. Next year he met the Imam  in Makkah again and people from his followers said that ‘Abdal Karim has become a Muslim. The Imam told him that ‘Abdal Karim was blind in this matter and would not become a Muslim. When he saw the ‘Alim he said, “My master, my chief!” The ‘Alim then asked him, “What brings you here?” He then replied, “It is the habits of the body and the traditions of the town to see what craziness makes them shave and throw pebbles.” The ‘Alim said, “It seems that you still live in your arrogance and misguidance, O ‘Abdal Karim.” He began to speak but the Imam said, “Disputation during Hajj is not permissible. The Imam freed his gown from the hand of the heretic man and said, “If it is the way you say and it is not true, then we as well as you are all saved. However, if it is the way we say and it is true we are saved but you are destroyed.” ‘Abdal Karim then turned to his people saying, “I feel pain in my heart. Take me back. They took him away and he died.