an act of selfless love, and asked the congregation, "Will you love that man or woman well enough to shed their blood?" As a matter of love, he said, "if [your neighbor] needs help, help him; and if he wants salvation and it is necessary to spill his blood on the earth in order that he may be saved, spill it." Blood atonement for apostasy Most discussion of blood atonement during the Mormon Reformation concerned the killing of "covenant breakers." The greatest covenant breakers were thought to be "apostates," who according to early Mormon doctrine would become sons of perdition and for whom "there is no chance whatever for exaltation." Nevertheless, Brigham Young believed that blood atonement would have at least some benefit. Young's first discussion of blood atonement in 1845 concerned a man who may have been considered an apostate in Nauvoo, Illinois . On February 8, 1857, Young said, regarding apostates, that "if their blood had been spilled, it would have been better for them." Young warned these apostates that although "[t]he wickedness and ignorance of the nations forbid this principle's being in full force, ...the time will come when the law of God will be in full force," meaning that apostates would be subject to theocratic blood atonement. In August 1857, Heber C. Kimball echoed Young's statements about apostates, stating that "if men turn traitors to God and His servants, their blood will surely be shed, or else they will be damned, and that too according to their covenants." According to the 12th LDS president Spencer W. Kimball, the extent of the religious enlightment of the apostates during the lifetime of Joseph Smith is not known, and they cannot be identified individually. According to the 10th LDS president Joseph Fielding Smith, a member who leaves the church does not become son of perdition, "unless he has had enough light" to become one. Properly practiced blood atonement Blood atonement as taught above was not to be used as a way to punish, but as a way for the sinner to make restitution for his sins. One hearsay account was given by John D. Lee, who was killed for his involvement in the Mountain Meadows massacre (see below). Lee stated in his memoirs that he had heard of only one person who had properly received death by blood atonement - by willingly atoning for the crime: Rosmos Anderson was