phenomena; e.g., the planets in the Solar System, and the proton and electron in a hydrogen atom are often treated as isolated systems. But, from time to time, a hydrogen atom will interact with electromagnetic radiation and go to an excited state. Radiative isolation For radiative isolation, the walls should be perfectly conductive, so as to perfectly reflect the radiation within the cavity, as for example imagined by Planck. He was considering the internal thermal radiative equilibrium of a thermodynamic system in a cavity initially devoid of substance. He did not mention what he imagined to surround his perfectly reflective and thus perfectly conductive walls. Presumably, since they are perfectly reflective, they isolate the cavity from any external electromagnetic effect. Planck held that for radiative equilibrium within the isolated cavity, it needed to have added to its interior a speck of carbon. If the cavity with perfectly reflective walls contains enough radiative energy to sustain a temperature of cosmological magnitude, then the speck of carbon is not needed because the radiation generates particles of substance, such as for example electron-positron pairs, and thereby reaches thermodynamic equilibrium. A different approach is taken by Roger Balian. For quantizing the radiation in the cavity, he imagines his radiatively isolating walls to be perfectly conductive. Though he does not mention mass outside, and it seems from his context that he intends the reader to suppose the interior of the cavity to be devoid of mass, he does imagine that some factor causes currents in the walls. If that factor is internal to the cavity, it can be only the radiation, which would thereby be perfectly reflected. For the thermal equilibrium problem, however, he considers walls that contain charged particles that interact with the radiation inside the cavity; such cavities are of course not isolated, but may be regarded as in a heat bath. See also Closed system Dynamical system Open system Thermodynamic system Open system (thermodynamics) References Thermodynamic systems