1 Friday, 23 July 2004
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
6 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Mr. Court Deputy.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
8 IT-02-60-T, the Prosecutor versus Vidoje Blagojevic, Dragan Jokic.
9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Good morning, Witness. Can you hear me?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.
11 JUDGE LIU: Could you please make the solemn declaration in
12 accordance with the paper Madam Usher is showing to you.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
14 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
15 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down, please.
16 WITNESS: BRANKO MIHIC
17 [Witness answered through interpreter]
18 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Stojanovic, are you ready?
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, last night we
20 proofed this witness, and we can begin our examination-in-chief today,
21 Your Honour.
22 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Please proceed.
23 Examined by Mr. Stojanovic:
24 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, would you introduce yourself to us.
25 A. My name is Branko Mihic. I come from the village of Drinjaca in
1 the municipality of Zvornik.
2 Q. Branko, could you please tell us your first and last name and
3 spell it for the record.
4 A. Yes. M-i-h-i-c diacritic. B-r-a-n-k-o.
5 Q. Would you tell us when and where you were born.
6 A. On the 29th of May, 1968, in Gornji Vuksic, the municipality of
7 Brcko, Bosnia and Herzegovina, then Yugoslavia.
8 Q. Would you tell us briefly what the course of your career was.
9 A. I was born in Gornji Vuksic. My father was a teacher there. I
10 lived there for a year and then we moved to Drinjaca where I still live
11 today. On completion of elementary school, I enrolled in the military
12 secondary school in Belgrade. I went to that school for two years and
13 then I was expelled. After that I continued my schooling in Zvornik. I
14 completed the secondary commercial school. After that I worked in Zagreb
15 for a time. Then I came home, and in 1991 I got married. Now I'm a
16 professional beekeeper.
17 Q. At one point you said that you had been expelled from the
18 military secondary school. Was the reason something you did or was there
19 any other reason why you left that school?
20 A. I liked this school. That's why I enrolled in it. However, the
21 circumstances were such that the -- the official reason given for my
22 expulsion was one thing, and I think the real reason was something else.
23 In that school we wore civilian clothes, although it was a military
24 secondary school, and we could do whatever we wanted with our civilian
25 clothes, and I sold mine at the market. This was quite usual. The
1 reason I was expelled was that in 1985 at Drinjaca there was an
2 organisation, a kind of Chetnik organisation. It later transpired that
3 this was actually not the troika Chetnik organisation. My father was
4 called as a witness, and there was pressure on him to give false
5 testimony, and he refused, and I think that's why I was expelled from
6 school. And there were a lot of sanctions against me in that system.
7 I wanted to go and enroll in the medical secondary school, but I
8 wasn't allowed to. I wasn't accepted. So I had to go to the commercial
9 school, which I didn't like at all.
10 Q. Thank you. If we can only slow down a little bit for the sake of
11 the interpreters.
12 A. Yes, I understand.
13 Q. Before 1991, were you duty-bound to serve in the army?
14 A. I did not do my military service. In the laws of the former
15 Yugoslavia, people who enrolled in military schools or academies and
16 stayed there for more than two years didn't have to do their military
17 service. I found this information in the newspaper, and I showed it to
18 the people in the military department, and then they took this into
19 account and didn't send me to do military service.
20 However, a comrade of mine who was also expelled from the school
21 like me did have to do his military service. So I was lucky.
22 Q. You said at one point that since 1991, you have been employed in
23 a private business and that you are a professional beekeeper. Can you
24 explain this, Mr. Mihic?
25 A. Beekeeping as a profession is not covered by taxes and is not
1 something that you register. So I do not have a registered business. I
2 am a farmer, I can say that, and I have 200 beehives and that's how I
3 earn my living. That's how I support my family. Only that way.
4 Q. Thank you. When the war broke out in Zvornik, did you become
5 active in the military?
6 A. Before the wartime conflicts broke out in Zvornik, I went to the
7 Mali Zvornik barracks, to Dragan Obrenovic's unit, only for the sake of
8 the salary. The salaries were good. There was nothing to do there. The
9 work wasn't hard. I was married. I had a child. I was unemployed. I
10 did keep bees at the time, but only as a hobby. So the only reason I
11 joined that unit was for the salary. When the Yugoslav army withdrew
12 from Bosnia and Herzegovina, that unit left Mali Zvornik and I returned
14 Q. Is that when you got to know Dragan Obrenovic?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Can you tell us. That year, how long did you stay in Mali
18 A. Very briefly. Perhaps two months at the most. Very briefly.
19 Q. Thank you. On your return to Zvornik, what did you do next with
20 regard to joining the army of Republika Srpska?
21 A. When I arrived in Drinjaca, I joined the ordinary village patrol.
22 It wasn't really a unit. When the battalion was established, I joined
23 the signals department in the battalion.
24 Q. Were you trained for communications?
25 A. No.
1 Q. And during those wartime years did you manage to learn the work
2 of a signalsman?
3 A. I think I did.
4 Q. Would you be kind enough to tell us how you advanced in this
5 Signals Unit and what duties you performed in the Signals Unit?
6 A. Well, when the signals squad was set up, I worked at the
7 switchboard, the radio switchboard. My komandir was the late Borko. He
8 was a sergeant. Borko Vukajlovic, who, when he went to Bratunac to
9 attend a meeting about communications, was killed in Kravica in 1991.
10 After he was killed, I took over the duty of komandir. We had
11 communications with all the units, all the companies, mostly telephone
12 communications, radio communications, but not so much.
13 Q. Let me interrupt you for a moment. Who was the commander of the
14 battalion to which you belonged?
15 A. Dragon Gotovac.
16 Q. Thank you. After this how did you advance in this job?
17 A. When the wartime operations in Drinjaca were over, my battalion
18 went on toward Bratunac above Konjevic Polje. I was transferred to
19 Malisic from there. This is a place which is about 40 kilometres away
20 from Drinjaca, below Zvornik. And I was also the komandir, the commander
21 of the signals unit in the battalion.
22 Q. From when to when were you the komandir of the signals department
23 in Malisic?
24 A. I think it was in 1993. I don't think it went on into 1994, but
25 I can't be precise.
1 Q. Who was the battalion commander at that time if you can recall?
2 A. I think it was Nenad Simic. After he left it was Radenko
4 Q. After performing this duty in 1993, where were you transferred
5 after that?
6 A. Well, I was far away from my home and my native village, and I
7 kept insisting that I be transferred back. Dragan Obrenovic then decided
8 to help me, and I was transferred to the Zvornik Brigade, to Standard.
9 And there are I became the komandir of a unit. It was the so-called
10 Mlada Vojska, Young Troops, and there were 14 of us. And all we did
11 actually was clean the corridors and the toilets. That's all we did. We
12 didn't do anything else.
13 Q. At one point you said that you got this better position thanks to
14 Dragan Obrenovic, where there was practically no work to do.
15 A. Yes. I explained to him it was difficult for me to travel 40 or
16 50 kilometres through snow and rain without any vehicle, and he decided
17 to grant my request. The new chief of communications --
18 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch the name.
19 A. -- who arrived in those days.
20 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Waespi.
21 MR. WAESPI: Mr. Stojanovic, the interpreters didn't catch the
22 name of the new chief of communications.
23 JUDGE LIU: Yes. From the transcript I did not see the names.
24 Yes, Mr. Stojanovic.
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you for your intervention,
1 Mr. Waespi.
2 Q. Mr. Mihic, could you please tell us who, then, became the chief
3 of communications?
4 A. Slobodan Gaborovic.
5 Q. Thank you. What was Dragan Obrenovic's duty at the time?
6 A. He was then the chief of staff of the brigade.
7 Q. Who was the brigade commander?
8 A. The commander was Vinko Pandurevic.
9 Q. Did Dragan Obrenovic as the chief of staff have the right to
10 transfer you from one post to another?
11 A. I think he did, but it wasn't a personal order from him.
12 Q. What are you trying to say by this, "it wasn't a personal order
13 from him"? It was his authority, but someone else issued the order?
14 A. Yes, precisely so.
15 Q. Could you please clarify this. I don't want to put a leading
16 question. What did you mean by that?
17 A. I asked him about this but it wasn't him who wrote out the order.
18 Probably there were no written traces at all. He said, "Mihic, from
19 tomorrow you're going to Standard, and you'll be working there." That's
20 how it happened.
21 Q. Did Obrenovic have that kind of authority at the time? Could he
22 just say to the chief of communications, "Well, transfer this man"?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And according to the system, who was supposed to issue the order
25 about your transfer from one duty to another?
1 A. I don't know exactly. I think it was my chief of communications,
2 because if I had come from Drinjaca it was logical for them to send me
3 back, but he was the one who assigned people to various posts.
4 Q. And did he do that pursuant to an order from Dragan Obrenovic?
5 A. Yes, I think he did.
6 Q. Thank you. Now, after that you moved to where?
7 A. When I got there, I stayed there for about two months or maybe a
8 month. But I didn't do anything there, absolutely nothing. And then I
9 asked -- I said, "Well, I'm not just a broom you can send to sweep
10 wherever you want." And then I was transferred to the radio relay
12 Q. And since when did you work at the radio relay centre as a
13 signalsman? From what date?
14 A. Well, I can't remember the date, but it was in 1994, 1995.
15 That's when I was there.
16 Q. Were you the komandir of that signals department?
17 A. Yes, I was. Radio communication, in actual fact.
18 Q. Now, as the commander of the squad, of this communications squad,
19 did you do that job in July 1995 as well?
20 A. Yes, that's right.
21 Q. And how long did you stay at that post doing that work?
22 A. I might have stayed -- well, I can't say exactly, but it might
23 have been August of that year, 1995.
24 Q. Thank you. Perhaps this is a good opportunity to ask you the
25 following question: The signals squad, how many people were there to
1 that unit?
2 A. Well, the number of people changed, but there were always between
3 four and eight.
4 Q. Where were you in July 1995, physically?
5 A. The command post of the brigade was in the Standard factory.
6 That was common knowledge. So we were one kilometre up the hill from
7 that command post, one kilometre away in a metal container.
8 Q. And what communication devices and signals devices did you have
9 in that metal container up on the hill?
10 A. They were the devices that belonged to my squad, the RUP 12, and
11 a radio station. I think it was all the RRU 100, but we referred to it
12 as the 100. But it belonged to the other squad that was next to ours,
13 and they had the RRU 800 device. And of course a telephone line with the
14 brigade command, an inductor telephone. A wire connection.
15 Q. And how did you organise the work at this radio relay centre?
16 A. Well, it changed, catering to the needs whether there was two,
17 two or three, three, or if we needed 100 per cent men on the job we'd all
18 be there. If there was any combat operations, all of us were there
19 100 per cent. If not, we would take shifts and relieve each other.
20 Q. Establishment-wise, who did you belong to?
21 A. We belonged to the signals company.
22 Q. And who was the commander of the signals company in July?
23 A. The commander was Radic Dragisa or Dragisa Radic.
24 Q. At one point you said that you had a telephone line or a wire
25 communication, as you put it, I think, with the brigade command. Is that
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Could you tell us, please, and explain what kind of telephone
4 line that was for us laymen who are not professional soldiers and
5 signalsmen. What does an inductor telephone that you mentioned actually
6 mean? What was it?
7 A. The brigade command was put up at the Standard on the first
8 floor, I think. Upstairs on the second floor there was the telephone
9 switchboard, the exchange, and the exchange operator were both men and
10 women. And then from that switchboard there was a wire stretched to me
11 and the wire was about 1.000 metres, and it was attached to the
12 telephone. So from my radio relay centre, using an inductor I could call
13 up the switchboard and exchange and they could then connect me to
14 anywhere, any battalion, any town, any country. They could put me
15 through anywhere I wanted to speak to.
16 Q. Does that mean you didn't have a direct telephone line with the
17 duty officer?
18 A. No, we didn't.
19 Q. Did you have a wire connection, telephone inductor connection,
20 with the battalions?
21 A. Only through the switchboard. Exclusively through the
22 switchboard. The radio centre, the switchboard, and then out to anyplace
23 I wanted.
24 Q. And finally, did you have any telephone wire inductor connection
25 with the superior commands, the Drina Corps and the Main Staff directly?
1 Did you have a direct line to them?
2 A. Through the switchboard, yes.
3 Q. Does that mean that you had this inductor telephone line directly
4 only to the switchboard which was located at the command of the Zvornik
5 Brigade? Is that right?
6 A. Yes. So when I used the inductor telephone, it would be the
7 switchboard that answers me. Nobody else could answer me, just the
8 switchboard. It went through straight to the exchange, to the
10 Q. Thank you. Let's move on to radio communications now. You said
11 that you had the RUP 12 device; is that right?
12 A. Yes, that's right.
13 Q. Now, for us laymen who don't know what this is about, what kind
14 of device it is, could you explain what the RUP 12 is, what its range is.
15 A. It was a piece of equipment -- how could I explain this to you?
16 Ten or 12 kilogrammes with two types of antennae, a long one and a short
17 one with different ranges. And it depended an optic sight [as
18 interpreted]. The larger the optic site, the further the frequency,
19 which does not mean that you couldn't get a connection within a space of
20 three kilometres. There were depression and elevations and so on.
21 Q. Now, you yourself, on the -- with this radio device, did you have
22 a connection to the battalion?
23 A. The location I was at the with the radio devices wasn't selected
24 at random. It was the sole case where I could have a connection with all
25 the battalions. If I were to move ten metres to the left or ten metres
1 to the right I wouldn't have this connection. So this was this spot,
2 this particular location that allowed me to have radio communication with
3 all the battalions, and I could hear and communicate with them at all
5 Q. If we had a commander, for example, or an operative unit working
6 in the field at any given time carrying another RUP 12 device with them,
7 if they had a RUP 12, then with these mobile radio devices could you
8 achieve a communication as well?
9 A. Yes, but not in all cases. Not in all circumstances. If
10 somebody was standing in a depression with a RUP, then I couldn't reach
11 him, which doesn't mean that he couldn't reach me by another battalion,
12 going via another battalion and reaching me in that way, a roundabout
14 Q. Did you have radio communication with the superior units, that is
15 to say with the command of the Drina Corps, for example?
16 A. Radio communications with the command of the Drina Corps never
17 functioned. It was never operational, never. The RRU 100 device was
18 used. You could hear very badly through it, and it never worked, hardly
19 ever worked. So not really.
20 Q. Now I'm going to ask you about those radio devices and means of
21 communications in the Zvornik Brigade. You said, I believe, that at the
22 command of the brigade, on the upper storey was where the switchboard was
23 located; is that the?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. So what was this? What kind of communication did they have, the
1 people operating the switchboard?
2 A. The switchboard was linked to all the battalions by a wire
3 connection. So at all times you could use the inductor telephone from
4 the battalions and reach the switchboard, anybody at all. There was a
5 relay device too. I don't know much about that and I don't know its name
6 either, whether it was called the VZ something and a number after it.
7 But that was a relay device, and that was used, but I really don't know
8 how because I'm not well-versed in that particular device.
9 Q. Was the process and procedure the same when you went externally
10 or somebody rang up the Zvornik Brigade from outside? Would it have to
11 go through that switchboard and then be connected to the person that they
12 wanted to speak to?
13 A. I think there were two numbers. One number was the one we
14 referred to as the civilian number at the switchboard which you would
15 phone up, and then you would be connected anywhere, the command of the
16 brigade, the command of the battalion. And then there was a direct
17 telephone line at the command itself. I can't remember the telephone
18 number. I did know it by heart, but I just can't remember it now.
19 Q. So my question to you is this: Could you help us out, please.
20 Somebody is calling from the Drina Corps, for example, and he wants to
21 speak to the duty operations man in the brigade. How can he reach the
22 duty operations officer?
23 A. If he's calling from the Drina Corps, he could call up the
24 switchboard and say, "I want to speak to the duty officer," and then he
25 switches two switches and connects him to the duty operations officer.
1 Or he can phone him on that fixed telephone number directly.
2 Q. This fixed telephone number, could it be intercepted?
3 A. I think so. I think this could be tapped into, yes.
4 Q. And what about the other number, the one going through the
5 switchboard? Could that be tapped into?
6 A. Well, it's the same. It would be the same case.
7 Q. Now, your radio communications through the RUP 12, could that be
9 A. Yes, absolutely. You could intercept anything.
10 Q. Now, you as the komandir of that radio centre, radio signals or
11 communications centre, did you know whether the conversations you had
12 through RUP 12 could be intercepted?
13 A. Yes. I knew that because I intercepted conversations from the
14 opposite side. I did the same thing.
15 Q. And what was the procedure when regular and interim combat
16 reports were sent out through the superior units? Which devices would be
17 used? How could you do that? How would the combat reports, regular or
18 interim, be sent out and distributed?
19 A. In the communications centre there were four squads and you had
20 the encoding department, you had the telephonists, you had the radio
21 operators and the radio relay operators. We ourselves did not send out
22 reports of that kind. Those were sent out by the encoders, encrypters.
23 Q. Could you tell us where the encrypters or encoders were located,
24 that is to state people who would send out regular combat reports, for
1 A. They were located, I think, on the same floor where the
2 switchboard was in another separate office. In the brigade command in
3 the Standard buildings, on the Standard premises.
4 Q. Why were they in a separate room? Why weren't they by the
6 A. It was a special department for encryption, encoding. Nobody was
7 allowed to enter except them and the commander. It was highly secretive,
8 highly confidential. Let me just say that from the colleagues that
9 worked there -- it had nothing to do with my department, but I asked them
10 and tried what -- to see what they were doing, but I wasn't allowed to go
11 in and have a look. They didn't give me permission.
12 Q. Just so we understand each other, who was the sole person able to
13 enter the encryption department?
14 A. As far as I gathered from them, the sole person was the
15 commander. Only the commander could enter.
16 Q. Thank you. I'd now like to -- you to explain using a practical
17 example of how this functioned, and I'd like to ask the usher's help for
18 an exhibit that we've already used here. It was Prosecution Exhibit
19 P519, and it was a regular combat report of the Zvornik Brigade dated the
20 14th of July, 1995.
21 Mr. Mihic, you have before you a document. It is titled Regular
22 Combat Report from the Zvornik Brigade on the 14th of July, 1995, sent
23 out to the command of the Drina Corps. It was sent by the commander
24 Major Dragan Obrenovic, and it was sent on the 14th of July, 1995, at
25 1840 hours. Can you see that? You have it in front of you. At the
1 stamp at the bottom, if you take a look. And you have the signature, V.
3 A. Yes, I see that, yes.
4 Q. Can you tell us, please, who V. Stojkic was?
5 A. Vinko Stojkic. He was an operator in that encryption department.
6 I think he was also the komandir of that squad or department.
7 Q. Was he one of the people who was permitted to be in the
8 encryption office?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Now, once a report of this kind is written out, how is it sent on
11 to the encryption department?
12 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Yes, Mr. Waespi.
13 MR. WAESPI: Yes. I believe the witness said before he wasn't
14 involved in this process of sending these reports, and also the
15 information he gave us about the entry into this encryption room was sort
16 of secondhand. So I would like to object to anything -- going into
17 details about the process he isn't aware of.
18 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Stojanovic, would you please ask this once
19 again whether he was involved in the sending of the reports to lay some
20 foundation for this question. Yes.
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, yes.
22 Q. Mr. Mihic, at one point you said that you were interested, from
23 your signals, fellow signalsmen, to learn of the way in which the
24 encryption, encrypters worked?
25 A. Yes, that's right.
1 Q. Now, did they tell you the kinds of situations that they would be
2 able to send out a document of this kind? Does it have to be authorised
3 and signed by the commander or what?
4 A. No. They didn't tell me that, but based on my experience, I
5 think it would have to have been signed and authorised by the commander.
6 So this isn't my sphere. But as far as I know, the report and document
7 would have to be signed.
8 Q. Thank you. And following on from that context, I want to ask you
9 the following: Were you ever in a position that through your radio
10 centre this kind of confidential, strictly confidential reports were ever
11 sent out?
12 A. No. We never sent reports of this kind out.
13 Q. Now, my question to you -- my next question is why.
14 A. It wasn't a reliable communication and line. And there was no
15 need. They had a wire connection if they were in the field. If you were
16 two kilometres away you could use the telephone and ring up. So there
17 was no reason and no need to use that, and everything was intercepted and
18 tapped into. So that wasn't standard practice at all.
19 Q. An experienced officer, an experienced commander, would he do
20 something like this knowing that the radio communication is intercepted?
21 Would they sent such document through you?
22 A. I don't think so.
23 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Waespi.
24 MR. WAESPI: This is pure speculation to ask him what an
25 experienced commander would do or not.
1 JUDGE LIU: Yes. It is a speculative question.
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'll go back to more concrete
4 Q. During your tour of duty, was any regular or interim report sent
5 via your radio centre?
6 A. No.
7 Q. I would like to draw your attention to the second part of the
8 questions that are relative to communication. You were in the radio
9 communication centre, and you wanted to say something or communicate
10 something to the duty operations officer.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Could you do it using the RUP?
13 A. No, I couldn't.
14 Q. Does that mean that the duty operations officer did not have
15 another RUP 12 on him?
16 A. Yes, that's what it means. He didn't have one.
17 Q. However, you have to communicate to him. You have to pass on
18 certain information that you had received from the battalion. How did
19 you do that? How did you communicate to the duty operations officer?
20 A. If I received information, I will speak to the duty operations
21 man at the switchboard who will pass it on. Or I would call the
22 switchboard and I would ask to speak to the duty operations officer.
23 That was the alternative.
24 Q. This is exactly what I wanted to ask you. One of the
25 battalions - and we have a logbook of the duty operations officers
1 recording the requirements for equipment, ammunition and so on and so
2 forth - one of the battalion addressed you and asked you to inform the
3 logistics that they needed ammunition, batteries, Browning ammunition and
4 similar things. How would you pass on this information to the duty
5 operations officer?
6 A. If this was asked from me, I would call the switchboard and I
7 will pass the information on, and they in their turn will pass the
8 information on to the duty operations officers. I could try and contact
9 the duty operations officer myself, but he was not always in his office.
10 So I would rather call the switchboard and ask them to pass on the
11 information on to him.
12 Q. Would it be more practical because somebody was always at the
13 switchboard at all times?
14 A. Yes, that's correct. There was always somebody at the
16 Q. When you passed on the information to the person working at the
17 switchboard, how would that person communicate that to the duty
18 operations officer?
19 A. It would be done on foot. It would be written on a piece of
20 paper and that person would literally take it downstairs to the duty
21 operations officer.
22 Q. Does that mean that you yourself did not have to communicate that
23 information directly to the duty informations -- duty operations officer?
24 A. Yes, that's correct. That's what it means.
25 Q. While you were working in -- at the radio communications centre,
1 what was the common practice? Was it the common practice for you to
2 communicate to the duty operations officer directly or did you leave the
3 information with the person at the switchboard who would then bring it to
4 the duty operations officer?
5 A. It was easier for me to leave the information with the
6 switchboard operator who would then bring it to the duty operations
7 officer. It was much easier, more practical for me.
8 Q. The same question, but let's go to the superior command. We're
9 now talking -- we were now talking about the battalion, but let's go to
10 the superior command.
11 In the duty operations officer logbook it says "Beara to report
12 to 155." Somebody's asking from the duty operations officer for this
13 information to be passed on to Beara. What would the procedure be in
14 this case? Did you have to talk to the duty operations officer directly?
15 A. No, we didn't. We could simply call the switchboard and ask them
16 to pass the information on, and they would do it at the first
17 opportunity. So we didn't have to speak to the duty operations officer
18 himself. It could be done through the switchboard operator.
19 Q. My question is as follows: Does it mean that bearing in mind the
20 system of communications, the duty operations officer did not necessarily
21 have to receive directly any such information, any such request?
22 A. That's correct. It wasn't the duty operations officer who
23 received that. It would be the switchboard operator who would receive
24 that, put it on a piece of paper and take it physically to the duty
25 operations officer who was supposed to receive it.
1 Q. And wouldn't that be the job of the communications or signalsmen,
2 the branch that you belonged to?
3 A. No. That wouldn't be my job. There would be other people,
4 people who are switchboard operators who would do that.
5 Q. Within this system of communication via the switchboard, could
6 the duty operations officer be in the position to receive information
7 more often through the switchboard or directly?
8 A. More often he would receive it from the switchboard because
9 everything went via the switchboard.
10 Q. Thank you. And now let me ask you about your position, the
11 position that you had up there as the radio communications squad. Why
12 did you exist if there were radio and telephone lines?
13 A. We were on a stand-by if telephone lines did not work. So we
14 worked very rarely. Within the period of 12 hours, we would maybe check
15 our connection once and that was -- that was it. Over the next five
16 days, maybe we did not even hear each other once.
17 Q. What was your function? Was your function to establish
18 communication was those units or those officers who at that given moment
19 did not have a telephone line?
20 A. Yes. If the telephone communication was broken, then it would be
21 us that established communication links. And if the units were on a
22 move, in combat, then we would be mediators. We would mediate in their
23 communication because they could communicate directly, and they did it on
24 a daily basis. When that was not possible, we would mediate in their
1 Q. On the 13th and 14th there was fighting in the area of the
2 Zvornik Brigade. Certain units were transferred to Snagovo. We have
3 heard a lot of testimonies about that. Did you have communication with
4 those units in Snagovo? Did you establish a radio connection with them?
5 A. I believe so.
6 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Waespi.
7 MR. WAESPI: I'm just objecting to using specific examples which
8 are not correct. For instance, there was no fighting on the 13th. So
9 that's a generalisation. I don't know whether it's needed, it's
10 important for the purposes of this question, but if he does it, it needs
11 to be correct.
12 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour. I did
14 not understand this remark. The first ambush and the first conflict with
15 the column and the military police of the Zvornik Brigade happened on the
16 13th, and on the 14th in the evening there was the most fierce fighting
17 with the ambush of Snagovo. We have heard testimonies to that effect.
18 If that is not correct, as my learned friend says, then I will also
19 accept that there was no fighting on the 13th.
20 JUDGE LIU: No. Here the suggestion is not that there was
21 fighting on the 13th or the 14th. Here we just want to establish whether
22 this person has some connection with the unit there. These are the most
23 important things, no matter whether there is fighting or not. So let's
24 concentrate on that direction.
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. This was the goal of my
1 question. However, an objection was raised to the effect that there was
2 into fighting on the 13th.
3 Q. My question is as follows: On the 13th, the 14th, the 15th, the
4 16th of July, during those developments and events did you have -- your
5 squad that is, the radio communications squad -- did you have -- did you
6 establish a link with those units which were on the move?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did this communication function or would it be interrupted from
9 time to time because those units were on the move?
10 A. Yes, that's correct. It worked at times, and at times it didn't
12 Q. And now I wanted to ask you something very specific. Can you
13 remember on the 14th, in the night between the 14th and 15th and on the
14 15th, were you in the communications centre and up to when?
15 A. I believe I wasn't. It was a long time ago. On the 15th,
16 however, I was absent because my wife was due to give birth. The road to
17 Drinjaca was closed because of these combat activities, so I had to go
18 via Serbia. I had to cross the Drina. I had to go and fetch my wife,
19 and I had to bring my wife and two young children to Zvornik, to my
20 sister's place. And then I returned to the communications centre, but I
21 don't know when that was. It was a long time ago. But I was there.
22 There were combat operations. I was on the line. I may have been absent
23 for three or four hours, but I had to. The road was blocked. There were
24 two young children at home. My wife was pregnant and about to give
25 birth, so my family needed me, and that's why I left the position.
1 Q. Can you tell us approximately when it was that you left on the
2 15th of July for these objective reasons?
3 A. I believe that it was sometime in the morning. The 15th of July
4 was the date when she was due, and I just left on the 15th of July to see
5 what was going on.
6 Q. Because of these combat activities, you can conclude that you
7 were there in your position on the 14th and 15th?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. How were you organised at the time, in view of the intensive
10 fighting in the area of the Zvornik Brigade?
11 A. I believe that we were all there, on the line. A hundred per
12 cent of the troops were there. Mind you, only one person could actually
13 work. The rest of us were probably sitting watching TV while that one
14 person was working.
15 Q. Thank you. In view of the fact that you were aware that what you
16 were doing could be intercepted and was indeed intercepted by the enemy,
17 can you tell us how would it happen within the system if you were to pass
18 on a piece of intelligence to a battalion or to the units on the move?
19 Did you have certain codes, code names? Did you have the means to carry
20 out secret conversations?
21 A. Yes. When we received our communications plans, we also received
22 codes that every battalion had. For example, one letter would be
23 replaced by three or four figures or several letters. So when a piece of
24 information was to be communicated, we would receive a lot of numbers.
25 For example, 562 was letter B. For example, if I were to sent
1 confidential information, I would just send the other person a cluster of
2 numbers. The person who received it, he would just follow those numbers
3 and that's how he could decipher the text.
4 It was very rarely that this was used, because we could normally
5 avail ourselves of the wire lines, of the telephone lines.
6 Q. Did you as the commander of that communications squad have an
7 opportunity or were you given a task to give one of your soldiers to
8 Dragan Obrenovic?
9 A. Yes. My unit was the one that gave soldiers to Dragan Obrenovic.
10 Q. Can you explain how this functioned? How did your soldiers serve
11 under him?
12 A. For example, a RUP 12 would be taken from the depot. The soldier
13 would put it on his back, literally. And if Dragan Obrenovic was sent to
14 the field, then that soldier would literally follow him. And that
15 soldier had to be very fit, because not everybody could follow Obrenovic
16 when he was moving around.
17 Q. Can you remember on the 14th of July who was escorting him?
18 A. Yes. It was Milos Pantic.
19 Q. On the 14th and the 15th of July, was he with him all the time?
20 A. I believe so.
21 Q. Thank you. In addition to RUP 12, did Dragan Obrenovic also use
22 or could he use the UK device [as interpreted]?
23 A. He usually carried a Motorola.
24 Q. When you say Motorola, do you mean that a Motorola is a UKT
1 A. Yes, I believe so.
2 Q. Could he use his Motorola in order to establish a direct link
3 with the command of the Zvornik Brigade?
4 A. No.
5 Q. To be more specific, let me ask you: Could he use his Motorola
6 to dispatch information to the duty operations officer?
7 A. No, he could not. He couldn't do it directly. He could via
8 somebody else.
9 Q. Does this mean that the duty operations officer did not have a
10 Motorola available?
11 A. No, he didn't.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will now ask the usher to
14 assist us to show the witness exhibit for identification, Your Honour.
15 It's P520, and this is a document we have already had an occasion to see.
16 It's an interim combat report of the 14th of July, 1995, which was used
17 by Mr. Butler and also by us when examining Witness Ljubo Bojanovic.
18 Q. Mr. Mihic, would you please look at the text of this interim
19 combat report and tell us to whom it's addressed. What does it say?
20 A. "To the command of the Drina Corps."
21 Q. Thank you. And who signed this document? Who is sending it?
22 A. Major Dragan Obrenovic, chief of staff.
23 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Waespi.
24 MR. WAESPI: The questions answers are following so quickly, so I
25 may not have a chance to object. But again, if he asked this witness to
1 comment on some substantive text, I have a problem. If he asks him again
2 whether somebody, you know, signed this document who was part of his
3 squad, that's no problem. But to have him again speculate about what may
4 be here, then I have a problem.
5 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Stojanovic, I think the issue is here that
6 whether you could establish a certain kind of relevancy between this
7 document and this witness. That is to say whether this witness is in the
8 position to make some comments of that document. And before that, we
9 shall not go into the contents of this document.
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. There is no
11 need for hasty objections. I do not intend to ask the witness to comment
12 on this interim combat report. My questions will be in a completely
13 different direction, and we will link this all up through the document.
14 Q. So let's just familiarise ourselves with the document and then
15 I'll put questions to you. The document says: "Tonight at around 2020
16 hours, a large group of Muslims passed through the broader Maricici area,
17 proceeding towards the Zvornik-Caparde road." And I won't read any more
18 although it's brief.
19 I'll just read the last bit. The second paragraph says: "Try to
20 find some means of bringing in more intervention forces early in the
21 morning." And then it's signed by Dragan Obrenovic.
22 Would you, sir -- Mr. Mihic, look at the seal --
23 MR. WAESPI: Objection.
24 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Waespi, I don't think the question has been
25 asked yet.
1 MR. WAESPI: Yes, but it's not signed by Mr. Obrenovic. That's
2 what he keeps referring. So that's a misstatement of facts.
3 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we say that in the
5 document, at the place where it is stated who is sending the document,
6 it's true there is no signature, but that was not the purpose of my
7 question. We've already established all this through the testimony of
8 Ljubo Bojanovic.
9 Q. Mr. Mihic, what I wanted to ask was the following: Would you
10 please look at the seal with me, at the stamp, saying when the document
11 was sent.
12 A. Yes, I see it.
13 Q. What's the date?
14 A. The 15th of July, 1995.
15 Q. What's the time?
16 A. I think it's 0110 hours.
17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Waespi.
18 MR. WAESPI: Again I really object to this witness who wasn't
19 involved in sending these documents, who was at a hill outside Zvornik to
20 comment on a document, on dates. The document speaks for itself. And we
21 have here Mr. Bojanovic. These people were qualified to comment on it,
22 not this witness, I'm afraid.
23 JUDGE LIU: Well, at this stage I actually have not heard the
24 substantive questions put by Mr. Stojanovic. I believe that Mr.
25 Stojanovic is now just laying some background. But let's come to see the
1 question you're going to ask this witness. And you told us before that
2 it will be a quite different direction. We'll see how different it is.
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 Q. Mr. Mihic, until last night when I showed this document to you,
5 had you ever seen it?
6 A. No. I see Vinko Stojkic signed it, so it couldn't have been sent
7 through me. It must have been sent through the encryption.
8 Q. Thank you. I'll show you a part of the statement made by Dragan
9 Obrenovic, the statement of facts before this Tribunal.
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it might be more
11 practical to put this on the ELMO - it's a public document - so that we
12 can see the English version.
13 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. In his statement, Dragan Obrenovic mentions this document and
16 says: "That same evening, 14th between 2300 hours and 0000 hours, I
17 wrote a request to the Drina Corps command for results on a piece of
18 paper and I gave it to my signalsman. He in turn sent the message to the
19 radioman. It was transmitted to the communication centre and then
20 relayed to the duty officer, Dragan Jokic. This was after the battles
21 and the capture of police captain Zoran Jankovic."
22 My question, Mr. Mihic, is as follows: On the 14th of July while
23 you were in the radio centre, at any point in time did you receive this
24 kind of open telegram from Snagovo?
25 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Waespi.
1 MR. WAESPI: There needs to be a foundation whether this person
2 was there on the 14th. I think he testified earlier he was away for
3 three hours. So before he goes in to basically assuming, he should
4 establish the foundation.
5 JUDGE LIU: Yes. I believe the witness testified before that he
6 was not stay there for the whole day. He was absent for some time. So
7 the first question is that, you know, from what time, you know, this
8 witness was absent during that day.
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. The witness
10 did state, and you can see on the previous page, that he left on the 15th
11 of July, before noon. And in answer to my next question, he said that in
12 the night between the 14th and 15th, he was there at the radio centre and
13 that they were all present there because of the intensive fighting.
14 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
15 MR. WAESPI: That was a general answer he testified in these
16 present, but he specifically said he was off and on. So I don't think
17 it's correct to assume now that on that night he was there.
18 JUDGE LIU: Well, since there's some, you know, different
19 interpretations, would you please ask some questions to this witness.
20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. No problem.
21 Q. Mr. Mihic, a few minutes ago we discussed this. Would you tell
22 us when you went to pick up your wife in Drinjaca, who was about to give
24 A. Well, you have to understand me. This was a long time ago. I
25 think I left on the 15th because she was due to give birth on that day.
1 Q. My next question is: At what time on the 15th?
2 A. If it was the 15th, it was in the morning. It was before noon.
3 Q. And where did you go?
4 A. I crossed the bridge over the Drina. I went into Serbia by boat.
5 I crossed the Drina by boat. And then I took my wife and children to
6 Serbia, to Mali Zvornik, to be with my sister.
7 Q. On the 15th in the morning, how long were you away from the radio
9 A. Three or four hours, because I was in a hurry. I had to be on
11 Q. And did you then return to the radio centre?
12 A. Yes, I did.
13 Q. And the day before, the 14th, and the night between the 14th and
14 the 15th, did you spend that time together with the others in the squad?
15 A. Yes. I was at the radio centre.
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] May I continue now, Your Honour?
17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, of course.
18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 Q. My question was: Between 2300 hours and 0000 hours on the 14th,
20 did you receive through the open RUP communication this interim combat
22 A. I personally didn't, but please don't misunderstand me. There
23 were four of us there. Maybe somebody else did, but I did not. Although
24 I'm not familiar with this text; we read whatever arrived, but I don't
25 remember seeing this.
1 Q. At one point you said that you never received such documents
2 through the RUP open line.
3 A. No. Especially not from the commander of the chief of staff.
4 This was never sent through us. We were there to communicate with the
5 battalions. It was the battalions who would send their reports through
6 us, and these were usually very trivial. They would just say "Situation
7 as usual." The battalions would sometimes send their reports to me if
8 the lines were down, and this would usually read just "Situation normal."
9 Q. Did you ever receive from the commander or the chief of staff the
10 task of sending such an important document through the open
12 A. No. The commander never called on us.
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I
14 propose that we take a break now. I will put a few more questions about
15 the witness's knowledge of Dragan Jokic and then that would conclude my
16 examination-in-chief. I will need not more than ten or 15 minutes.
17 JUDGE LIU: Yes. It's time for the break, and we will resume at
18 quarter to eleven.
19 --- Recess taken at 11.14 a.m.
20 --- On resuming at 11.47 a.m.
21 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stojanovic.
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Q. Mr. Mihic, I now have a few questions to ask you about Dragan
25 A. Yes, go ahead.
1 Q. Since when have you known Dragan Jokic?
2 A. I've known Dragan Jokic since he was the chief of staff of the
3 brigade, that is to say at the beginning of the war.
4 Q. Did you meet him perhaps during the war?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Did you have occasion to see him talk to other soldiers,
7 conversing to other officers, superior officers, subordinate officers,
8 that kind of thing?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Could you tell us, please, what your impressions are of Dragan
11 Jokic and what the troops and soldiers thought of him? What were their
13 A. Let me tell you. I'll be frank. I'll tell you what I really
14 think. I think most of the people here whom I don't know here have not
15 read a novel called "Nikoletina Bursac" who is also the main character.
16 At first chance he is a rather rough-looking type, rough-looking
17 character but with a very kind heart and soul. He loved everything,
18 loved nature and loved everything that was civilised, just as the
19 character in the book "Nikoletina Bursac."
20 As you know, my profession is a beekeeper, and Dragan Jokic
21 bought some bees from me, and he gave me his official pistol for what
22 were practically two empty beehives. It was just the same as if he'd
23 given it to me in exchange for two boxes of cigarettes, for example.
24 Dragan Jokic knew I was a hunter, and he had a rifle. I don't know what
25 kind it was, but he wanted to give it to me as a gift. That was before
1 any of these events took place.
2 So quite simply I can say that he was a good man. He wasn't a
3 careerist, a career oriented. But the officers persecuted him,
4 mistreated him, didn't treat him properly, and I found that difficult to
5 take. But what can you do? That's what the situation was like.
6 Q. Were you ever in a situation in which you attended these
7 conversations and communications between Dragan Jokic and his superior
8 officers when they behaved towards him that way, with a lack of respect,
9 or undermined him and the man he was?
10 A. Yes, I was, and I found it shameful to be in their company when
11 they took it out on them, the superior officers took it out on him in
12 front of other soldiers, in front of the troops.
13 Q. Could you be more specific and tell us how they berated him and
14 undermined him, the superior officers?
15 A. Well, I was present on one occasion when the commanding officer
16 asked him to dig a communicating trench. He said I don't want anybody
17 else, any other soldier to dig the trench, I want you to do it. So he
18 took up a shovel and started digging this communicating trench. He
19 didn't have to do for long, but it was just to prove a point and the way
20 they treated him.
21 Q. Did you ever have occasion while you were working as a signalsman
22 near the command of the Zvornik Brigade to hear from the soldiers or the
23 citizens members of the Zvornik Brigade anything about Dragan having
24 taken part in any crimes?
25 A. No. I'd never heard anything like that about Dragan's
1 participation in any crime.
2 Q. Well, did you hear about the crimes generally that were committed
3 in the Zvornik municipality?
4 A. I was a signalsman up at the signals department. And believe me
5 when I say I didn't hear anything about those crimes, not a single
6 letter. I heard about it when everything became public. But otherwise,
7 there was never any mention of anything of that kind and I knew
8 absolutely nothing about anything like that at the time.
9 Q. Thank you. Now, do you know about his family situation, Dragan
10 Jokic's family situation, his family circumstances?
11 A. Yes. I knew his financial situation and his family situation,
12 although we weren't close. We weren't friends. We didn't actually --
13 but we did socialise a bit. I think he's divorced. He had to look after
14 a son, I think. I think it was his second or third marriage. I know he
15 has a very fine young son, a very cultivated, nice young man. I know he
16 lived in somebody else's apart. He was a tenant. That's all I can say.
17 That's all I know about him.
18 But I do know that the other officers gained a great deal more
19 than he did. He wasn't interested in anything material, whereas the
20 other officers accrued more.
21 Q. Thank you, Mr. Mihic.
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions,
23 Your Honours, for this witness.
24 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Mr. Karnavas?
25 MR. KARNAVAS: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours; good
1 morning, sir. I have no questions for the gentleman.
2 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Mr. Waespi.
3 MR. WAESPI: Yes, good morning, Mr. President.
4 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
5 MR. WAESPI: Yes, I have just a few questions, and I have been
6 using one exhibit, Exhibit P121. I'm sorry I didn't announce it
7 previously. That's the own exhibit I will be using, with your leave.
8 JUDGE LIU: Yes please.
9 Cross-examined by Mr. Waespi:
10 Q. Good morning, Mr. Mihic. I have just a few issues I'd like to
11 clarify with you.
12 A. Good morning.
13 Q. Let me first go back to your whereabouts. This morning
14 Mr. Stojanovic had asked you, and I quote him:
15 "And now I wanted to ask you something very specific. Can you
16 remember on the 14th, in the night between the 14th and the 15th and on
17 the 15th, were you in the communications centre and up to when? "
18 And your answer was: "I believe I wasn't. It was a long time
19 ago." And then you go on to talk about the 15th.
20 Now, you don't really know where you were in those days because
21 it's such a long time ago. Isn't that correct?
22 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Stojanovic, I think this question has been
23 asked and answered, but we would like to hear the witness once again.
24 Yes. I understand that. Let the witness answer that question. Yes. Is
25 there anything that you still want to raise? If you have, please.
1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Just one sentence. I think,
2 Your Honour, that not at one point did the witness say he was not there,
3 but let the witness answer the question again. But then it would be
4 proper to have the whole answer given by the witness quoted. It would be
5 proper vis-a-vis the witness.
6 MR. WAESPI: The problem, Mr. President, is the question
7 Mr. Stojanovic had asked, because it included 14th, 15th night, and I
8 just would like to clarify what the witness said.
9 JUDGE LIU: Yes, of course. You may proceed.
10 Witness, you may answer that question.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. Fine. Whether I was
12 there on the 14th, is that it? Well, I can't say 100 per cent. I think
13 I was there. Now, if somebody were to ask you where were you two and a
14 half years ago, it would be difficult for you to answer. So all I can
15 say is I think I was there, but as the war was going on, I was at the
16 front line 100 per cent. If I had gone to fetch my wife on the 15th, I
17 actually deserted to go and fetch my wife and take her to be -- to give
18 birth. So on the 14th I can say that 90 per cent, I'm sure 90 per cent
19 that I was there.
20 MR. WAESPI:
21 Q. Now, you just told us, in your words, that you deserted to get
22 your wife. Did you ask authority then from somebody or not?
23 A. No, I did not. I didn't ask anybody's permission, because it was
24 a -- I had two sons, born in 1993 and 1994. My wife was nine months
25 pregnant. She was full term. I had to go and fetch her from Zvornik in
1 the morning. The road was impassable. So it was a life-or-death
2 situation. I had to go to the Drina, across the Drina, go to Zvornik,
3 bring my wife back. But my job didn't suffer. There were four or five
4 signalsmen and just one device. So that wasn't a problem at all. I was
5 the komandir and I assessed that I could go and get my wife without any
6 problems. So my job didn't suffer at all.
7 Q. Do you remember the night 14th, 15th before you went to see your
8 wife? Were you sleeping at all that night?
9 A. Probably I was. I don't know. I can't say. There were enough
10 of us there. Somebody was always awake. There was always somebody
11 manning the device, so it couldn't be left without anybody.
12 Q. Now, in those time, 14th, 15th, 16th, there was a time, was it
13 not, that the city of Zvornik, the town, was threatened by the Muslim
14 forces? Isn't that correct?
15 A. Yes. Very well, yes.
16 Q. And you remember that?
17 A. I do.
18 Q. And the commander, the acting commander, the chief of staff
19 Obrenovic, he was in the field and was trying to cope with that
20 situation. Is that also a fair statement?
21 A. All right, yes.
22 Q. Now, did you listen to open communication between the brigade
23 duty officer and the corps asking desperately for measures how to cope
24 with the situation? Do you remember those type of conversations?
25 A. No. No, I wasn't able to listen in to that. I couldn't listen
1 in to that communication. I was on the other side. That was a different
2 line altogether. I was from the brigade to the battalion, that
3 connection, not brigade corps line.
4 Q. Did somebody else from your squad was able to -- to listen in to
5 those kind of communications?
6 A. No, not from my mine.
7 Q. So your squad wasn't -- wasn't doing that.
8 A. No.
9 Q. Now, let me ask you, perhaps you can help us a little bit about
10 the call-signs. Do you remember who Omega was?
11 A. I don't know. I don't remember.
12 Q. How about Lovac?
13 A. I think that was me.
14 Q. And who was Lovac 1?
15 A. Chief of staff. When he goes into the field, he uses our
16 call-sign and adds a 1.
17 Q. That was Dragan Obrenovic.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And do you remember the call-sign or the real name of the person
20 Celik, C-e-l-i-k? Do you remember who that was?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Now, did you have any exchanges with Obrenovic, being Lovac 1?
23 You Lovac, Obrenovic Lovac 1. Did you have any exchanges on those
24 critical days, let's say the 14th of July.
25 A. There probably was something, but I can't be sure what. I can't
1 say exactly. Probably there was some sort of communication, but I really
2 don't remember. I can't say.
3 Q. And why can't you remember?
4 A. Well, it was a long time ago. And it's like this, listen here.
5 I don't think I had any connections with Obrenovic at one point. The
6 connection was lost. I'm sure about that.
7 Q. Well --
8 A. The connection line was lost.
9 Q. But if you had connections, were there many exchanges between you
10 and Mr. Obrenovic?
11 A. No. No. No, certainly not.
12 MR. WAESPI: Now, if the witness could be shown Exhibit 100 -- I
13 believe 121. And while that's being done --
14 Q. If you were absent, somebody else for you would take over Lovac
15 and communicate with whoever wanted to communicate with you; is that
17 A. Yes, yes, yes.
18 Q. Perhaps if page 7 of the English version could be put onto the
19 ELMO, and -- in B/C/S. You'll be shown that page. Perhaps if you can
20 see somewhere in the middle, Mr. Mihic, there is an entry in your B/C/S
21 original and it says: "1825," "1825," and that's on the 14th July, "238
22 Lovac 1 - Lovac." Could you see that on your document?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Now, let me read what it says. It says: "They were attacked
25 there. They requested something to be sent. Is there anything," and
1 then it says, "came interrupted (L1)." I take it that's Lovac 1. And
2 then there is: "Igman informed Lovac what he (Vuk) came."
3 Now, do you remember this conversation?
4 A. I don't remember. No, no.
5 Q. So it's 14th July at 1825.
6 A. I don't remember. No.
7 Q. Now, we see here Igman. Do you know who Igman was?
8 A. I don't know. No, no.
9 Q. Now, let's go down a few lines, about four lines, and it says,
10 and I quote again: "On the frequency 293 at 2045 Igman 1 and Lovac 1 and
11 Lovac - surround the forces with war materiel, reinforcement is coming
12 from the Main Staff and now Mane's men are coming."
13 Again it's Lovac involved, your call-sign. Do you remember -
14 again, in the evening 14th July - do you remember this conversation?
15 A. I don't remember the conversation, but usually when I didn't pick
16 up and when Lovac 1 talked to someone, as far as I remember he would
17 usually use the Lovac codes -- call-sign without the number 1. So if
18 Lovac and Lovac 1 have a conversation, then that's what they say. But if
19 they talk to someone, they would just say Lovac because it was just the
20 same unit. So the signalsman who was where I was, he would follow Lovac
21 1, and he would report with the call-sign Lovac. So I didn't have the
22 need to involve myself. That's why you have Igman and Lovac. Why would
23 Igman have talked to Lovac? And what am I? Nothing.
24 Q. So these couple of conversations that we were discussing, you
25 don't remember anything about that.
1 A. I can't remember.
2 Q. And you don't remember any other conversation which would stick
3 out in your mind on that day.
4 A. I do remember the conversation. I don't know what day it was
5 exactly, but I do remember when the operations around Srebrenica started.
6 The -- it was reported to the centre that there was a long column, and
7 you couldn't see the end of the column. When the army platoon went for
8 reconnaissance and reconnoitring, then that was the first information,
9 when the scouts went out. So I received this information and conveyed it
10 further on, of course. Who received it, I can't say; the signalsman down
11 there. I don't know.
12 Q. And that was an army platoon from the Zvornik Brigade who was
13 down in Srebrenica.
14 A. No, no; not in Srebrenica. That was in the Zvornik portion,
15 Lijesanj or somewhere around there, towards Glodina and Kamenica. That's
16 where it was noticed. Now what the date was I don't know. You probably
17 have the right information. You must have the date. But that was the
18 first information I received, the first information that came in to me.
19 Q. And looking back, that is the one conversation which would stick
20 in your memory since today.
21 A. I remember that well. It was the first one, and I know that
22 exactly, for a fact.
23 Q. Any other conversation you recall now?
24 A. No, I can't remember.
25 MR. WAESPI: I have no further questions, Mr. President.
1 JUDGE LIU: Any re-examination, Mr. Stojanovic?
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With Your Honour's permission,
3 just a few questions.
4 Re-examined by Mr. Stojanovic:
5 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Mihic.
6 A. Yes, go ahead, please.
7 Q. You said at one point during those days because of the intensity
8 of the fighting that was going on you know that Obrenovic was in the
9 field, on the spot; is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Now, do you know whether Obrenovic during those days used a
12 vehicle of some kind?
13 A. Yes, he did. He went with a vehicle.
14 Q. Can you tell us what kind of vehicle?
15 A. Well, I can't remember the make. It was a jeep of some kind.
16 Q. And did he drive the jeep?
17 A. No, no. He had a driver.
18 Q. Right. He had a driver. Fine. Now, in the jeep was the
19 signalsman there that was assigned to him?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Could you tell us, please, from the crossroads leading to
22 Snagovo, from Crni Vrh to the Zvornik Brigade, how far is that journey?
23 How far is the route?
24 A. Well, I don't know. I'd say about ten, 12, 15 kilometres.
25 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Yes, Mr. Waespi.
1 MR. WAESPI: I believe it now gets out of the scope of
3 JUDGE LIU: Yes, I believe so. You began to ask some questions
4 in some new areas. The re-examination should be within the scope of the
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Yes, Your Honour.
7 Just one more question, then, and I'll wind up.
8 Q. How long does a vehicle take to get -- to pass that 10-12 route?
9 A. It takes 15 to 20 minutes.
10 Q. At one point you said that from time to time you would have a bad
11 connection, lose the connection with Obrenovic; is that right?
12 A. Yes, it was down.
13 Q. Does that show that he was moving around?
14 A. It indicates that he was moving around, and maybe my battery was
15 low. Maybe my battery was -- his battery was low and then he exchanged
16 his battery somewhere in the battalion later on. So his battery was low,
18 Q. Thank you. And you also said at one point that you remember that
19 on that day, the 14th or in the evening, that you lost all connection
20 with Obrenovic. Is that right? Can you tell us or can you remember when
21 that happened?
22 A. No, I can't.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further requests, Your
1 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Now, at this stage are there any
2 documents to tender, Mr. Stojanovic?
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. The documents
4 we used have already been tendered through Ljubo Bojanovic and
5 Mr. Butler. They're already in evidence, so there's no need.
6 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. On the part of the Prosecution? No?
7 Well, thank you.
8 Well, Witness, thank you very much for coming to The Hague to
9 give your evidence. Madam Usher will show you out of the room, and we
10 all wish you a pleasant journey back home. You may go.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
12 JUDGE LIU: You may --
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 [The witness withdrew]
15 JUDGE LIU: Well, before we have the next witness,
16 Mr. Stojanovic, how about next Monday and Tuesday? Do we have any
17 witnesses on these two days?
18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] On Monday, as you know, we don't
19 have any witnesses because Mr. Vasic's statement will be according to
20 92 bis. And on Tuesday and Wednesday, according to the schedule, we are
21 to hear Mr. Dragan Jokic, unless there are some changes. In any event,
22 until the end of the day today, I'm going to inform you about that.
23 JUDGE LIU: Well, could we hear Mr. Jokic next Monday, because
24 next Monday, Tuesday we might have the full day, but on Wednesday,
25 Thursday, or Friday, we may only have half day for, you know, the hearing
1 because we will have the Plenary Meeting, you know, during that day. So
2 my suggestion is that we should hear your witness as early as possible.
3 You may discuss with your client during the break and inform us
4 in time.
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE LIU: Could we have the next witness, please.
7 [The witness entered court]
8 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, Witness.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
10 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration in
11 accordance with the paper Madam Usher is showing to you.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
13 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
14 WITNESS: MIHAJLO CVIJETIC
15 [Witness answered through interpreter]
16 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down, please.
17 Yes, Mr. Stojanovic.
18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Our witness
19 is going to be led by Mr. Branko Lukic. So I would like to give the
20 floor to my co-counsel, Mr. Lukic.
21 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Lukic.
22 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I know that you are
23 surprised every time when I get up.
24 Examined by Mr. Lukic:
25 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Cvijetic.
1 A. Good morning.
2 Q. For the record, can you please tell us your full name.
3 A. My name is Mihajlo Cvijetic.
4 Q. Again for the record, could you spell your first and last name.
5 A. M-i-h-a-j-l-o. My family name, C-v-i-j-e-t-i-c.
6 Q. When and where were you born?
7 A. I was born on the 28th of January, 1952, in Musici village in the
8 Municipality of Kupres, in the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
9 Q. Can you tell us something about your educational background,
10 where and when you finish the schools that you finished.
11 A. I finished elementary school in 1967 in Ravno village in the
12 Municipality of Kupres in the Socialist Republic Bosnia and Herzegovina.
13 I finished school for non-commissioned officers engineers in Karlovac in
14 the Socialist Republic of Croatia. That was inform 1971. I completed
15 the military academy of the land army in 1978 in Belgrade, in the
16 Republic of Serbia. The General Staff school I completed in 1982 in
17 Belgrade. I also attended a course on the implementation of the
18 agreement in Prague, Oberammergau and Paris. I also attended a course
19 for de-mining and instruction of explosives in Chatham, London, the
20 United Kingdom. I also attended a course for de-mining and inspector for
21 the control of de-mining in the organisation of Banja Luka. I believe
22 this would be enough for the time being.
23 Q. I believe that it is more than enough.
24 During your service in the army of Republika Srpska, what
25 positions you held?
1 A. During my service in the Republika Srpska army, I was the chief
2 of engineers in a brigade. I was the inspector in the centre for
3 verification, and I also performed the duties of the officer for mine
4 clearance in the army of Republika Srpska.
5 Q. Did you represent the entire army of Republika Srpska in your
6 last position?
7 A. Yes. I represented the entire army of Republika Srpska, and I
8 was in constant contact with the SFOR, with the representatives of SFOR,
9 i.e., the representatives of the international organisations which are
10 engaged in mine clearance.
11 Q. I would kindly ask you to slow down a little so that our
12 interpreters could catch up with you and interpret all your words
14 A. Yes. Thank you.
15 Q. As we have already informed the Trial Chamber, you will be
16 testifying about the situation in Bosnia and Herzegovina after the war.
17 We would like you to provide us with your insight into character of
18 Dragan Jokic.
19 First of all, can you tell us: Since when have you known Dragan
21 A. I have known Dragan Jokic since 1983, although I knew him even
22 before because he also attended the military academy and that's where I
23 saw him first. But since 1983, I have gotten to know him better, after
24 our education that we did, that we went together.
25 Q. In our conversation, you described your activities and the
1 activities of Dragan Jokic in the past date in Bosnia-Herzegovina by
2 dividing them into three segments.
3 A. Yes, yes, that's correct. I divided those activities into three
4 segments. I wanted to point to the activities pursuant to the
5 implementation of the agreement according to Article 4, according --
6 Article 2, and the role of Mr. Dragan Jokic in the mine clearance of the
7 areas in Bosnia and Herzegovina.
8 Q. The first segment would be the implementation of the accords
9 falling under the regional control of arms, in other words, Article 4 of
10 Annex 1. I would like to show you a document with this regard, and let
11 me first ask you: The documents that we're going to show to you, can you
12 tell us how did the Defence get -- got by those documents.
13 A. I brought these documents with me as I was preparing for this
14 trial testimony, as when I was informed that I would appear before this
15 Trial Chamber, I inspected all the documents. I wanted my testimony to
16 be based on facts, on -- based on information and knowledge. I wanted to
17 provide the best possible testimony, and that's why I brought these
18 documents with me.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can the usher assist us in showing
20 the documents to the witness.
21 Q. One of the documents that you have provided to the Defence will
22 be shown to you. You gave this document to the Defence yesterday
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We apologise to the Trial Chamber and
25 to our learned friends for the documents not being translated. I believe
1 -- I hope we will appreciate that we only got hold of these documents
2 yesterday evening, but we also hope that the witness will be able to
3 provide us with the explanation of the contents and the importance of the
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes --
6 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, this is the first time we've seen
8 these documents. We could have seen them tomorrow night -- or last
9 night. We could have some idea what they are. It is a bit absurd to be
10 using documents that could have had some meaning and they, really, now
11 have no meaning to us.
12 But given that this is the last witness and given the subject
13 matter, we will not object, but I just -- if there is any material for
14 the next witness, we would please request that we get it in a timely
16 JUDGE LIU: Yes. I quite agree with you, and the -- I believe
17 that any new-obtained documents should be furnished as soon as possible
18 to the other party and to the Bench. Any pre-emptive attack is not
20 But considering that those documents were not directly related to
21 the critical period, that is the July 1995, and the witness will testify
22 only on the character and the behaviours after the war of Mr. Jokic, we
23 allowed the Defence to use those documents. But it should be a warning
24 to the Defence team and in the future, if you have obtained any document,
25 please furnish it to the other party. As a rule, the pre-emptive attack
1 is not allowed.
2 You may proceed, Mr. Lukic.
3 MR. LUKIC: [In English] Thank you, Your Honour. And as you
4 could see, I wasn't sitting in the first session because I was
5 photocopying these document at that time. So we really were not able to
6 provide Your Honours and the Prosecution with these documents earlier
7 than we did. Thank you.
8 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Cvijetic, please kindly tell us what the
9 document that is before you is about.
10 A. Mr. Dragan Jokic was engaged as an inspector of the control of
11 armament which can be seen from the message 0717 to 126. Under 32 it
12 says Dragan Jokic, male, born on 20 August 1957, and the identity card
13 number is here. Such a list was sent to all the parties to the
14 agreement, the verification centre of Croatia, the verification of
15 Yugoslavia, and verification centre of the army of the federation.
16 THE INTERPRETER: If the witness could slow down just a little,
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On receipt of this document, all
19 the parties had the right to voice their objections to the document.
20 Every party retains the right to exclude any other inspectors that are on
21 the list.
22 JUDGE LIU: Witness, I understand that you're eager to give your
23 testimony, but whatever you said in this courtroom will be translated
24 into the other two languages. So please make a pause after each
25 sentence, and please speak slowly.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. Every party to the
2 agreement received such a list of inspectors, and all the parties have
3 the right to voice their objections to this list, which means that every
4 person listed herein may be excluded from the list.
5 The parties to the agreement did not have any objections to this
6 list, which means they did not have any objections to Dragan Jokic's name
7 on the list. So Mr. Jokic remained an inspector.
8 This list was also submitted to the OSCE, and I wanted to show
9 you the year 1996 on purpose, because, Your Honours, we believe that
10 those were decisive years, very difficult years. And those were the
11 years when human trades of the officers and the personnels who were
12 engaged on this task could be seen best. Many things, many activities
13 were not precisely regulated to the last letter. There was very little
14 experience at the time. And that is why personal trades of individuals
15 were so important.
16 Mr. Jokic, while performing this activity, showed and proved
17 himself, and he showed that the implementation of peace has no
18 alternative in Bosnia. As a person, as a human being, he made his
19 personal contribution towards the implementation of all the activities
20 that were planned according to this article.
21 Your Honours, there is an activity which is called escort. The
22 escort team is the one that receives the team of inspectors of the other
23 party. This is where Mr. Jokic was able --
24 MS. ISSA: Your Honour.
25 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Issa.
1 MS. ISSA: I am objecting to this, Your Honour, because it
2 appears the witness is going into a very lengthy narrative without being
3 asked any particular questions. I don't think that's proper.
4 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Mr. Lukic, I think you have to lead this
5 witness, and the proceedings in this trial is in a pattern of question
6 and answer. Maybe the witness is not familiar with this kind of
7 practice. But you have to take the lead.
8 MR. LUKIC: [In English] We'll both do our best, Your Honour.
9 Thank you.
10 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Cvijetic, your answers have to be a bit
11 shorter, please. However, I will ask you to finish what you started.
12 A. I wanted to finish with Article 4, and I would like to say that
13 Mr. Jokic's contribution was very correct when it comes to the activities
14 according to Article 4.
15 Q. Were there any objections to his work by the parties who were
16 informed about that?
17 A. As far as the parties were concerned, as far as the places where
18 we went to inspect, and as far as the parties who came to us to inspect,
19 there were no objections.
20 Q. The second segment that we will be addressing is the
21 implementation of the agreement on the measures for the building of
22 understanding and peace in Bosnia and Herzegovina.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. In what capacity was Mr. Dragan Jokic engaged in this segment?
25 A. As for Mr. Jokic's activities in this area, he was active as an
1 inspector. Secondly, he was active as a host during visits to bases.
2 Q. What did the position of inspector of weapons control entail?
3 A. The position of inspector of verification of weapons meant that
4 he had to be on the list of inspectors and had to go through the
5 appropriate training courses either at home or abroad.
6 Q. But what did the job consist in?
7 A. Well, he had to be in the inspection team and go to the other
8 side. Or if he was in an escort team, he had to be the host, receive the
9 teams from the other side and show them everything that was provided for
10 in the protocol.
11 Q. As a host, was he cooperative?
12 A. As regards cooperativeness, the entire range of activity
13 organised by Dragan Jokic's unit was done correctly and properly, both as
14 regards the unit itself and the team of the other side, the inspection
16 Q. Were there any objections to Dragan Jokic's work in this area?
17 A. No, there were no objections to Mr. Jokic's work in this area.
18 And by your leave, by Their Honours' leave, I wish to say that it was
19 very fortunate that Article 2 has been fully implemented in
20 Bosnia-Herzegovina. This is something that gives me great satisfaction.
21 This year, the full implementation will be completed, and this,
22 of course, goes to the credit of all the people who participated in
23 creating and implementing this article, and Mr. Jokic has played a role
24 in all this.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] For the sake of the record, we have
1 had D76/3 shown to the witness. I wish to ask Madam Usher to show the
2 witness Exhibit D77/3.
3 Q. Mr. Cvijetic, would you please assist us, because as you have
4 heard, we have not had an opportunity to have this document translated
5 for the benefit of the Court and the Prosecution. Could you tell us what
6 this document is about.
7 A. Well, it's similar to the first document.
8 Q. Please slow down.
9 A. Thank you. This is a document like the first document we saw.
10 It again contains a list of inspectors for the year 1997, and Mr. Jokic
11 is under number 29, which means that he remained on the list of
12 inspectors in the following year. And this means, of course, that there
13 were no objections to his work. And this list was adopted.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Lukic, what is the number of this document?
16 It's 76 or 77?
17 MR. LUKIC: The latest document the number is 77/3.
18 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Issa.
19 MS. ISSA: Your Honour, for clarity's sake, it appears to
20 contradict the list. I think the list says 135/3. So I'm just wondering
21 if perhaps we can have that clarified so that -- to avoid any future
23 JUDGE LIU: Well, to me it is 76/3.
24 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
25 JUDGE LIU: Well, I've been informed by the Court Deputy that
1 this document should be 76/3. Let's stick to it.
2 MR. LUKIC: I'm afraid, Your Honour, that the previous document
3 is 76. And also the confusion is created by correcting our numbers by
4 the Court Deputy.
5 JUDGE LIU: You know, the problem is that, you know, at this
6 moment maybe we are not very much care about numbers, because you know,
7 after this sitting -- or during the break the Court Deputy will discuss
8 with the Defence counsel to give me the correct number. The problem is
9 it is not translated into English, so we don't know actually which
10 document it is.
11 For instance, you know, in the list the witness told us that
12 Mr. Jokic is number 26, and we could only check it according to the date
13 of birth of this person. Otherwise, there is no other indications on
14 that. This is the very, you know, problem we are facing.
15 But anyway, you may go on and use the document. I think during
16 the break we should have a correct numbering of all those documents so we
17 know what you are talking about and what documents you are using.
18 You may proceed.
19 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. And I believe the
20 Prosecution now has corrected numbers. Am I right?
21 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Cvijetic, it is our mistake that we did not
22 provide translations in time. Please don't worry about this yourself.
23 I would now like to move on to the third topic we have to discuss
24 today, and that is de-mining according to the standards of humanitarian
25 de-mining. Has Mr. Dragan Jokic been involved in this type of work?
1 A. Your Honours, when broaching this topic, allow me to say that the
2 removal of mines and the de-mining of minefields is the most complex
3 activity and the most high-risk activity, both for the person carrying
4 out the de-mining and for the users of the de-mined area.
5 In this case, referring to Mr. Dragan Jokic, I can state openly
6 and with full responsibility that he personally invested a great deal of
7 effort in carrying out these activities properly.
8 Q. Thank you. Did Mr. Jokic participate in these activities from
9 the very beginning?
10 A. Yes. I will again mention the problem of the year 1996, when
11 soldiers were suddenly dismissed so that engineers and officers were
12 practically left on their own, and there was simply no other way but for
13 an officer to take up an instrument, put on a helmet and personally work
14 on removing mines so that the return of refugees could proceed according
15 to plan. Mr. Jokic personally did this work.
16 Q. Would you tell us what his personal involvement consisted in, in
17 the very beginning.
18 A. With respect to his personal involvement, I will again refer to
19 the complexity of the situation we found ourselves in. What I wish to
20 say here is that Mr. Jokic took an instrument in his hand to feel for the
21 mines, and he personally -- it was a kind of probe. And he personally
22 took part in de-mining to ensure that it proceeded according to plan.
23 All this took place in villages, hamlets, to which mostly Muslims were to
24 return, the Muslim population. That was the situation. Jokic first did
25 this personally, then he trained a group, and later on he did this in
1 cooperation with SFOR. SFOR helped us to organise ourselves, and he took
2 part in these activities then.
3 Q. Did Mr. Jokic take part in training de-mining personnel?
4 A. Yes, yes. As soon as the first training course was completed by
5 SFOR we organised training in our units, and Mr. Jokic was in charge of
6 this training. He selected commanders, komandirs, and people to work on
7 de-mining. He selected them for this task.?
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would now like to ask the usher to
9 help us with the following document. The next document should be D79/3.
10 Q. Mr. Cvijetic, what segment of Mr. Jokic's participation can we
11 see in this document?
12 A. Your Honour, this document before us shows that Mr. Dragan Jokic,
13 through his personal activity, made it possible for Captain Radenko
14 Petrovic to take over the duty of komandir of a de-mining unit. And
15 Mr. Dragan Jokic took on part of his job in order to help Lieutenant
16 Dragan Simic. And we can see that from this document.
17 Later on, during his later activities, we can see that this was a
18 very helpful move.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We're finished with this document. I
20 would now like to ask Madam Usher to assist us with the next document,
22 Q. Mr. Cvijetic, I will ask you, first of all, what the harvest
23 drive refers to.
24 A. Your Honours, the harvest drive was organised by SFOR from time
25 to time. It was a drive to gather explosive devices, mines, weapons, and
1 other military equipment. The citizens would bring these items to the
2 barracks. They would report them and hand them in. Every unit was
3 duty-bound to receive these items, to take an inventory, to list them and
4 to destroy them.
5 The engineers were mostly active in destroying explosive devices
6 and mines. We did this first, and then our colleagues from SFOR took
7 over this duty, which made it easier for us to do the job.
8 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Lukic, I think this is not a good approach.
9 My suggestion is that you read that document in B/C/S so the
10 interpretation booth could have it translated into English, because this
11 document is not very long. But it will help us to know where is that
12 harvest thing, you know. Otherwise we are in total darkness.
13 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.
14 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Cvijetic, would you be kind enough to read
15 out for us this document so that Their Honours and the Prosecution can
16 know what it's about.
17 A. When I was preparing to testify here, I only wanted to show this
18 as an example, as a kind of sample. There are many such documents. The
19 zetva or harvest drivers were planned every three months, and then every
20 six months, and then as things quieted down, once a year and so on.
21 I have taken this document as an example, simply to remind us of
22 all this.
23 Q. Can you please tell us who is sending the document to whom, and
24 could you read out its content.
25 A. The command of the 503rd Motorised Brigade carried out a drive to
1 gather equipment and materiel as part of the Zetva or harvest drive, and
2 it is sending this document to the command of the 5th Corps, and it says:
3 "In the period from the 16th of August, to the 23rd of August,
4 2002, as part of the 'Zetva' or harvest drive, from the MUP of Republika
5 Srpska, public security sector in Zvornik, we received a certain amount
6 of weapons and ammunition which we stored in the depot Glinica 1."
7 Second paragraph: "Please find attached a list of the equipment
8 and materiel collected in this period."
9 And from this document, we can see that four anti-personnel mines
10 were collected, four -- as the witness said, hand grenades. And this is
11 what was destroyed in the brigade. This is what the brigade destroyed.
12 This is the document I was commenting on.
13 Your Honours, please take into account that this is only a random
14 sample. I didn't follow this from the year 1996 because if I had, there
15 would have been many more such documents.
16 Q. Thank you. We've finished with that document. I'm now going to
17 show you another document which luckily everyone in the courtroom will be
18 able to understand because it's the only document we have in English.
19 Mr. Cvijetic, this is a document which you provided to Dragan
20 Jokic's Defence team last night.
21 A. Yes, it is.
22 Q. Do you know what it's about?
23 A. Yes. I am particularly happy that this is 1996, which was the
24 most complex and difficult year in view of the activities that were
25 ongoing, and Major Jokic was given this certificate of achievement from
1 cooperation with his colleagues at the SFOR, and I think it speaks for
2 itself and it confirms what I've already said in my testimony about him.
3 Once again, let me repeat that the de-mining or doing away with
4 mines is the most complex operation, and only somebody with - how shall I
5 put this? - a strong will and a lot of knowledge can tackle this kind of
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] For the record, this is document
8 number D80/3. Thank you.
9 Q. I'm now going to show you the next document. To save time, I'm
10 just going to read the contents of the document.
11 "Multinational Division (S), recognition or acknowledgement is
12 given to team S/5/1. It's an award for exceptional results achieved in
13 work on de-mining the -- on the de-mining campaign in the summer of 1998
14 accorded to the de-mining team.
15 "Your excellent work has helped in the elimination of mines and
16 resettlement of civilians in the area. Your efforts serve the honour of
17 the unit -- are to the credit of the unit."
18 It is the multinational division. S is Sever or north. To SFOR
19 and to Bosnia-Herzegovina.
20 Now, when it says that this was a team S/5/1, who is that? Who
21 was that?
22 A. Your Honours, this was the team provided by the 503rd Brigade.
23 It was the one in which Mr. Jokic worked, and it was through his
24 endeavours that this team took part in the work on de-mining the surfaces
25 which had been mined.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And for the record, it is document
3 [In English] And, Your Honour, is it a good time to have a break
5 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We will have a break and we will resume at
7 --- Recess taken at 12.01 p.m.
8 --- On resuming at 12.32 p.m.
9 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please continue, Mr. Lukic.
10 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 I would like Madam Usher to help us with two more documents we'll
12 hopefully understand.
13 Q. [No translation]
14 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Issa.
15 MS. ISSA: I'm not sure if there was any translation.
16 THE INTERPRETER: Can you hear the English? Can you hear the
18 JUDGE LIU: Would you please repeat your question, Mr. Lukic.
19 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
20 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Cvijetic, on the screen in front of you
21 there is a photograph showing a group of soldiers. Could you please tell
22 us, if you remember, where and when this photograph was taken and who you
23 can recognise on it.
24 A. Mr. President, on this photograph I recognise Mr. Jokic. He is
25 next to the civilian, standing next to the civilian.
1 Q. You have to show us on the ELMO and use your pointer, please.
2 A. This is Mr. Jokic. Next -- that's Mr. Jokic. Then I also
3 recognise Mr. Eric. And the others are colleagues from the army of
4 federation or, rather, the army of the federation and our colleagues from
5 SFOR working on the de-mining project. But I should particularly like to
6 emphasise Mr. Eric here, because Mr. Jokic proposed that Mr. Eric could
7 continue working on de-mining projects for the coming period, and that's
8 what happened next. He was a younger officer. He was a lieutenant
9 colonel at the time. A 2nd lieutenant, actually.
10 But otherwise this is a group photograph of people working on the
11 de-mining project as a momentum [as interpreted] for us, and Mr. Jokic,
12 and everyone else.
13 Q. Just briefly let's see the second set of photographs?
14 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Lukic, you have to ask a question when this
15 picture was taken and where it is.
16 MR. LUKIC: I did, Your Honour, but I don't think I got a
17 response, so I didn't.
18 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please. For the sake of the record, please
19 repeat your question.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Mr. Cvijetic, do you happen to remember where and when the
22 photograph was taken?
23 A. Well, I can't remember exactly. I think it was -- I can't
24 remember exactly. It was at the beginning, so I can't tell you exactly,
25 I'm afraid, but I think it was in Doboj or -- just a moment, please.
1 Just give me a second. No, I'm sorry, I can't give you an exact answer
2 to give you a time frame.
3 Q. Do you remember the time?
4 A. Well, roughly speaking, this is 1997. 1997 is the year.
5 Q. Thank you. And now let's take a look at these other photographs.
6 A. These photographs here, I can recognise Mr. Jokic, the OSCE
7 representative, OSCE. So it was cooperation there, an instance of
9 A colonel of the Swiss army on this side here. I can recognise
10 him. It was a long time ago. And Mr. Jokic. They're sitting there
12 Then the representative of the multinational division north and
13 Mr. Jokic. And here we have the inspectors and Mr. Jokic with them.
14 Here we have an exchange of gifts with the representative of the
15 army of the federation, probably when they were visiting the base.
16 And here once again we have him with the representative of the
17 multinational division north, him and Mr. Jokic.
18 So all these photographs testify to a very proper and concrete
19 form of cooperation, concrete and proper cooperation with representatives
20 of the SFOR, with representatives of international organisations with the
21 aim of timely and professional de-mining.
22 Q. Thank you. And for the record, these were exhibits, Defence
23 Exhibits D82/3-1 and D81/3-2.
24 The usher will now give you another document to look at, and I'm
25 going to ask you whether the execution of tasks given -- that you had
1 after the war that Mr. Jokic took part in, were they easy and simple
2 tasks that you were given to carry out? Tell us first whether they were
3 simple, whether it was easy to carry out the assignments that you had
4 given before you. Or were there many obstacles?
5 A. Mr. President, we have a document here which speaks about the
6 implementation of the Dayton Accords and the attending documents, where
7 the command of the 5th Corps conducted an analysis, and in the frameworks
8 of that analysis mention is made of certain problems -- and I should
9 especially like to stress that this was done in 1999. That was the date
10 when they speak about major problems. In continuation of the document,
11 it says problems occurring during inspection.
12 Q. Could you please tell us briefly, looking through the document
13 which is Defence Exhibit D83/3, what kind of problems you encountered.
14 What does it say in the document dated 1999?
15 A. Mr. President, in this document the problems that occurred when
16 we conducted inspection, that is to say three years later, there were
17 large quantities of ammunition in -- not in their original wrapping. A
18 lot of bulk ammunition not in its own original wrapping and casing. So
19 to establish what the situation was, we had to spend a great deal of time
20 in sizing up the situation, and it required, I would say, a lot of
21 courage too.
22 Then we didn't have enough warehouse space and the proper
23 warehouse space for storing this materiel and making a list of what we
24 stored, keeping records, and lack of training on the part of those
25 handling the materiel and equipment.
1 So first of all to see what materiel there was, to record the
2 materiel, the lack of necessary documentation pertaining to the materiel
3 equipment, and the keeping of records in three types of records. We had
4 the SFOR records, the OSCE records, and the Military Accountancy Centre
5 of Banja Luka, their records. So three sets of records.
6 I don't want to go into the different problems of the different
7 areas of activity, but I'd just like to focus on those three aspects. A
8 large number of materiel and equipment; not the proper storage space; and
9 not enough training of personnel, not enough professional people to deal
10 with the situation. So all these problems had to be addressed, and each
11 of the units had its assignments to perform in that regard, and Mr. Jokic
12 did too. Mr. Jokic worked with his unit on matters of this kind, because
13 in view of the fact that the engineers had to do with the bulk of the
14 work related to mines and de-mining and ammunition and so on, both to
15 test its operational use, the quantity and storing such materiel and
16 equipment too.
17 And I should once again like to emphasise that this was three
18 years later.
19 Q. And in that connection let me ask you this: The situation in
20 1996 and 1997, was it worse or not? Worse or better?
21 A. The situation was incalculably worse in the terms of pointers
22 stipulated here. So at that time we had a lot of material dispersed over
23 a large area, and we had to locate all this materiel and devices and to
24 make records of it and so on.
25 Q. Very well, Mr. Cvijetic. These are our questions of you. I
1 don't know if Mr. Karnavas will have some questions of you, and after
2 that I would ask you to kindly answer the questions put to you by our
3 learned friends and the Trial Chamber. Thank you very much?
4 JUDGE LIU: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.
5 Mr. Karnavas, do you have any questions to be put to this
7 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President. I may have one or two
9 JUDGE LIU: Oh, yes, please.
10 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President.
11 Cross-examined by Mr. Karnavas:
12 Q. Good afternoon, sir.
13 A. Good afternoon.
14 Q. We haven't met or spoken, but let me ask you whether you know
15 Mr. Blagojevic.
16 A. Yes, sir, I do.
17 Q. We understand that he was an engineer by training in the
18 military. My question to you is: During this critical period of time
19 that you've been testifying, that is after the Dayton Accords, do you
20 know whether Mr. Blagojevic participated with the international
21 community, international forces, in events such as the de-mining, events
22 that you've been talking about?
23 A. Yes, he did. He was a member of the initial conference that
24 held -- that was held in Vienna in 1996. And from then on, from that
25 meeting on, Mr. Blagojevic planned, managed and organised the system of
1 de-mining in the army of Republika Srpska, and he also cooperated with
2 the army of the federation, the SFOR and other international
3 organisations. His cooperation was very correct, very good, very rich.
4 And this was a very fruitful period in the life of Colonel Blagojevic in
5 that area.
6 Q. Thank you very much, sir?
7 MR. KARNAVAS: I have no further questions, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Ms. Issa.
9 MS. ISSA: Yes. Good afternoon, Your Honours. I do have a few
10 questions. Thank you.
11 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Yes, please.
12 Cross-examined by Ms. Issa:
13 Q. Good afternoon, sir. I just have a couple of questions, sir.
14 You're not aware of Mr. Jokic ever telling anyone where the victims of
15 the Srebrenica massacre were or the location of the mass graves, are you?
16 A. Did he ever tell anybody? I'm afraid I didn't understand your
17 question. Could you please repeat it.
18 Q. Did he say anything at all about identifying the location of the
19 mass graves? Did he assist in any way to do that, to the international
21 A. I really don't know. I don't know if he ever said that to
22 anybody. And he never said it to me personally, and -- I'm not aware of
23 that. Whether he said it to anybody else, I really wouldn't be able to
24 tell you anything to that effect.
25 Q. Okay. And by the same token, sir, I take it that you're not
1 aware of Mr. Blagojevic ever assisting international forces with
2 identifying the location of the mass graves, are you?
3 MR. KARNAVAS: Objection, Your Honour. It calls for speculation,
4 and she needs to lay a foundation which we don't have any in any way that
5 Mr. Blagojevic was ever involved in any of these activities. So if she
6 can lay a foundation then she can ask the question, but the question
7 assumes a fact that's not in evidence, as it's posed.
8 JUDGE LIU: I believe that witness can answer the question
9 whether it's yes or no, just like he answered the question that was put
10 to Mr. Jokic.
11 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
13 MS. ISSA:
14 Q. Could you answer that question, sir?
15 A. I'm a Bosnian. You have to repeat your question at least twice.
16 I hail from Bosnia, and that's what you have to do with us Bosnians. So
17 can you please repeat the question that referred to Mr. Blagojevic.
18 Q. Okay. I will do that. Do you know whether Colonel Blagojevic
19 ever assisted international forces in locating the mass graves?
20 A. I really don't know whether it was ever asked from
21 Colonel Blagojevic, whether anybody asked Colonel Blagojevic to do that.
22 I really don't know if anybody requested that from Colonel Blagojevic.
23 If anybody had, I'm sure that he would share any information that he
24 might have had with the person that requested it. I know Blagojevic very
25 well, and I'm sure he would have done that. I don't know whether anybody
1 asked that of him. I can't say yes or no.
2 In any case, if anybody had asked him to share that information,
3 I'm sure he would have shared it, had he known where that was.
4 Q. Okay. During the period of 1996 and 1997, did you know that
5 Mr. Obrenovic and Mr. Jokic were -- got into trouble or were caught for
6 hiding ammunition from SFOR? Are you aware of that?
7 A. You know what? I have presented information here, and I've told
8 you about the problems that we encountered in the course of our work.
9 For example, SFOR comes today and inspects your weapons. Overnight a
10 certain quantity of weapons is found somewhere else and a peasant brings
11 it to you, and you face a problem because the duty operations officer
12 doesn't report it, and when the inspection returns, this becomes a
14 In any case, I'm not aware of any problems involving the hiding
15 of weapons. I believe that this cooperation was always correct.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
18 MR. LUKIC: I just wanted to let the witness answer the question,
19 but I think that it would be fair toward the witness to tell him who said
20 something, or what was the evidence, or to lay some kind of foundation.
21 JUDGE LIU: Well -- but anyway, the witness answered that he was
22 not aware of any problems involving the hiding of the weapons. So it's
23 over. But if the witness answered the other way, I believe that is the
24 responsibility for the Prosecutor to present some evidence.
25 I think this matter is answered.
1 Yes, Ms. Issa.
2 MS. ISSA: I don't have any further questions, Your Honour, but
3 perhaps to assist, Ms. Sinatra was actually the person who posed those
4 questions to Mr. Obrenovic and that's where we got that from.
5 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Any redirect?
6 MR. LUKIC: No, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Karnavas?
8 MR. KARNAVAS: No, Mr. President.
9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. At this stage are there any documents to
10 tender? Mr. Lukic?
11 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour, and we believe that the Prosecution
12 won't be able to say whether they object or no. It would probably be
13 subject to translation. But we would like to tender these documents we
14 used today, and those are numbers D76/3, D77/3, D78/3 -- sorry, 79/3,
15 D80/3 D81/3, D82/3, D82/3 and D85/3.
16 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Mr. McCloskey.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: We have no objection to those being used -- dealt
18 with the same way the ones I think yesterday, that they provisionally be
19 allowed, and if we have any problems, we'll let the Court know.
20 JUDGE LIU: I see. But document D80/3 is written in English.
21 It's a certification, as well as the document D82/3-1 and -2. Those are
22 two photos. So at this stage we could make a decision on those two
23 documents. They are admitted into evidence.
24 As for the other evidence, I'm afraid we cannot admit them at
25 this moment, but later on if we see the translation I believe that we
1 will consider those documents' admission at that time. Thank you. So
3 Well, Witness, thank you very much indeed for coming to The Hague
4 to give your evidence. We wish you a pleasant journey back home. Madam
5 Usher will show you out of the room.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. And if
7 you will allow me, would like to say a sentence.
8 I would kindly ask this Tribunal to address the issue of
9 de-mining and to use its reputation with certain institutions that might
10 have a say in the legal regulation of this problem. I myself have been a
11 victim of a mine, and I know what it looks like when a mine is laid and
12 what happens when somebody is hurt by a mine. So I would kindly ask you
13 if you could raise this issue with the authorities to give it the proper
15 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may go now.
16 [The witness withdrew]
17 JUDGE LIU: Well, we booked this courtroom until 7.00 today, and
18 we finished the witness before 1.00. At this stage, are there any other
19 matters that the parties would like to raise?
20 Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Well, Mr. Karnavas and I can argue for the next
22 six hours if you like, but you probably don't want to hear us.
23 Mr. Stojanovic and I were able to talk about the expert report of
24 the witness yesterday. And we did actually take Mr. Karnavas's idea and
25 we did keep the basics of the report and I believe agreed on areas that
1 would not be in. So that, I think, should be resolved.
2 JUDGE LIU: Yes. I think if, Mr. Stojanovic, you could submit
3 that redacted, if I say, redacted report we will have it admitted into
4 the evidence.
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Yesterday, we
6 had a long meeting, and we discussed the expert report in depth, and we
7 agreed on the contents of the report. Our associate Dragoslav Djukic has
8 prepared that, and as soon as this session is finished we're going to
9 provide the Prosecutor with the redacted report in B/C/S and in English,
10 and after that we're going to also provide it to the Trial Chamber with
11 our proposal for this redacted report to be admitted into evidence as a
12 Defence exhibit. And this also refers to the translation of the rules of
13 service and the instruction on the work of commands that we tendered into
14 evidence yesterday.
15 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Thank you very much.
16 Yes, Mr. McCloskey? You must have some clarifications; right?
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: I believe Mr. Stojanovic may have one other
18 announcement, and I would see what he had to say first before I ask the
20 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Mr. Stojanovic.
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I'm
22 convinced that Mr. McCloskey could not argue with me for six hours.
23 Maybe this is just throwing the ball into my part of the courtyard.
24 I just wanted to inform you that with today's day and with this
25 last witness we have finished the presentation of Defence exhibits.
1 And we would like to inform that during the last break we have
2 finally been authorised to inform you that Dragan Jokic, for the reasons
3 for the security of his son, primarily, does not want to testify on his
4 behalf, and I would kindly ask you to make a note of that. We are not
5 going to have any evidence to present next week before this Trial
7 In any case, thank you for the time that you were willing to give
8 us. We have tried to use that time rationally and effectively with our
9 witnesses in the best intention to help our client.
10 So this brings the Defence case officially to an end.
11 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. As I said before that we fully
12 respect the free will of your client. Whatever decisions he makes, we'll
13 respect it. Thank you.
14 Could we go to the private session, please.
15 [Private session]
12 Pages 12266 to 12276 – redacted – private session.
17 [Open session]
18 JUDGE LIU: Well, it seems to me that there is nothing else on
19 the agenda, and I'm very glad to say that we finished the Defence case of
20 Mr. Jokic ahead of time, and I understand there are some leftover
21 housekeeping matters to deal with, especially concerning some documents
22 which has not been admitted into evidence. I hope the parties will make
23 submissions before the end of the whole case so that we could consider
24 the admission of those documents in due time.
25 I would like to repeat that if any party have the rebuttal or
1 rejoinder case or reopening his case, they could file us before the 26th
2 of August so that we could be prepared for any hearing -- possible
3 hearings in the future.
4 I believe that's all I have to say. If there is nothing else the
5 parties would like to raise at this stage, we declare the hearing is
7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.30 p.m.,
8 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 1st
9 day of September, 2004