diff --git "a/data/SCv1/raw.pickle" "b/data/SCv1/raw.pickle"
new file mode 100644--- /dev/null
+++ "b/data/SCv1/raw.pickle"
@@ -0,0 +1,21980 @@
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+g5
+(g9
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+g5
+(g9
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+g5
+(g9
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+g5
+(g9
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+g5
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+g5
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+(g9
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+g5
+(g9
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+g5
+(g9
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+g5
+(g9
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+g5
+(g9
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+(g9
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+g5
+(g9
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+g5
+(g9
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+g5
+(g9
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+g5
+(g9
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+g5
+(g9
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+g5
+(g9
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+g5
+(g9
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+g5
+(g9
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+g5
+(g9
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+g5
+(g9
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+g5
+(g9
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+g5
+(g9
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+g5
+(g9
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+g5
+(g9
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+g5
+(g9
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+g5
+(g9
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+g5
+(g9
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+g5
+(g9
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+g5
+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+tp1381
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+g5
+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+tp1385
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+g5
+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+tp1389
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+g5
+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+tp1393
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+g5
+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+tp1397
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+g5
+(g9
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+tp1401
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+g5
+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+tp1405
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+g5
+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+tp1409
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+g5
+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+tp1413
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+g5
+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+tp1417
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+g5
+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+tp1421
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+g5
+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+tp1425
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+g4
+g5
+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
+p1428
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+(g9
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+(g9
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+(g9
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+(g9
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+(g9
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+(g9
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+(g9
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+(g9
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+(g9
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+(g9
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+(g9
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+(g9
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+(g9
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+g5
+(g9
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+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+g5
+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+g5
+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+g5
+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+g5
+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+g5
+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+tp2601
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+g5
+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+tp2605
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+g5
+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+tp2609
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+g5
+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+tp2613
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+g5
+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+tp2617
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+g5
+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+g5
+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+g5
+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+tp2629
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+g5
+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+tp2633
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+g5
+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+tp2637
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+g5
+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+tp2641
+Rp2642
+sa(dp2643
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+g5
+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+tp2645
+Rp2646
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+g5
+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+tp2649
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+g5
+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+tp2653
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+g5
+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+g5
+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+tp2661
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+g5
+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+tp2665
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+g5
+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+tp2669
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+g5
+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+tp2673
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+g5
+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+tp2677
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+g5
+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+tp2681
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+g5
+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+g5
+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+g5
+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+tp2693
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+g5
+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+tp2697
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+g5
+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+tp2701
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+g5
+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+tp2705
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+g5
+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+tp2709
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+g5
+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+tp2713
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+g5
+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+tp2717
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+g5
+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+tp2721
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+g5
+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+tp2725
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+g5
+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+tp2729
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+g5
+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+tp2733
+Rp2734
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+g5
+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+tp2737
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+g5
+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+tp2741
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+g5
+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+tp2745
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+g5
+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+tp2749
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+g5
+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+tp2753
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+g5
+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+tp2757
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+g5
+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+tp2761
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+g5
+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+tp2765
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+g5
+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+tp2769
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+g5
+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+tp2773
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+g5
+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+tp2777
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+g5
+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+tp2781
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+g5
+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+tp2785
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+g5
+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+tp2789
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+g5
+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+tp2793
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+g5
+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+tp2797
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+g5
+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+tp2801
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+g5
+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+tp2805
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+g5
+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+tp2809
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+g5
+(g9
+S'\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00'
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+tp2813
+Rp2814
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+g4
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+(g9
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+(g9
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+(g9
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+(g9
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+(g9
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+(g9
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+(g9
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+(g9
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+g5
+(g9
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+(g9
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+(g9
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+(g9
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+g5
+(g9
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+g5
+(g9
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+g5
+(g9
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+g5
+(g9
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+(g9
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+g5
+(g9
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+g5
+(g9
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+g5
+(g9
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+g5
+(g9
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+p7991
+(lp7992
+S"So in order to discuss an article you made up a bunch of stuff that wasn't in the article, implied it was in the article, and failed to discuss anything that was actually in the article. I see.   Will this be a one time thing, or is this the sort of thing we should expect from you on a regular basis? Just wondering."
+p7993
+aS"Old habits die hard and dogs don't pay attention to clocks!"
+p7994
+aS'They only need 1/4 of the legislature, so they\'ll probably get that. But if it actually gets to the polls? The conservatives took a big hit when they ran around screaming "If gays get married society will collapse and we\'ll all be doomed!!!11!1!!" and then nothing happened. And of course the most organized group in Mass. opposing gay marriage is the Mass. Catholic church, and people aren\'t going to take kindly to a bunch of child rapers telling them what\'s right and wrong. The anti-gay side really doesn\'t have much to work with; it\'ll largely be a contest of good will and common sense vs. scare tactics, and the scare tactics have already been proven wrong.'
+p7995
+aS'well if you think the sun goes around the earth then its time for apocalypse.'
+p7996
+aS'I dunno. What is the scoop here? You complain about the responses we give, and yet you keep coming back for more. Even people with down syndrome learn enough to only stick their hands in the open flame once.'
+p7997
+aS'yea...it\'s like ordering a pizza. First the paleontologist digs up a bone or other artifact...then he calls the lab, tells them what he found and gives them the date they can expect the bone to arrive for "testing." Then the lab asks him from what organism the bone once belonged and also what toppings, I mean dates, he wants for his bone. Then the paleontologist gives him the range of dates that most suit his presuppositions.....Then the paleontologists sends in the bone fed-ex, along with a gift-certificate to the finest steakhouse in town and two tickets to the ballgame, and then sits back and waits for the results. Finally, just to be on the safe side, the paleontologist repeats this scenario with at least 2 more labs...this way just in case one doesn\'t cooperate he has backup and he can pick a date from any number of labs.'
+p7998
+aS'Abstinance?! Heaven forbid.'
+p7999
+aS'So, in summation, your position is that the US should be more like the Europeans? Should we also bathe less frequently? Have poor dental hygeine? Become an "also ran" economy? No thanks. I have no desire to mimic Europe.'
+p8000
+aS'I see. Then what you are claiming is that creationists are the ones who should define the vocabulary to be used by evolutionary biologists. Would it then be ok for atheists to define the vocabulary of Christianity?'
+p8001
+aS'BREAKING NEWS: SHOOTING IN DALLAS OFFICE TOWER - CTnow   Ah, the good old gun-crazy US of A.'
+p8002
+aS'Just trying to help out where I can, and if it proves you right well that makes a first time huh?Sarge its a first!!'
+p8003
+aS'More silliness on your part. Think about it. Gay couples together for 40 or 50 years. That means they were living together in the 1950s and 1960s. Those people were the foundation of the gay-pride movement.'
+p8004
+aS'So cross jurisdictional escort is a fairly common occurrence in the area. You will note that it is not the local cops talking about not being informed....it is the author of the article whining about it.'
+p8005
+aS"And yet it's usually the liberal democrats who are in favor of murdering innocent children..."
+p8006
+aS"So you're saying that the ones who're eligible to carry a gun, those who're 21 or older, never been convicted of a crime, undergo fingerprinting, pay hundreds of dollars, attend an eight hour course held by the police, pass a firearms safety class, and weight three months to finally get their permit, would intentionally use it as an excuse to murder a teacher over a trivial matter like an unfavorable grade?   Wouldn't it just be easier, as well as more likely, for an emotionally disturbed student to just illegally bring a gun to school and kill their teacher, rather than waiting for a legal alternative to commit murder and go to prison anyway?"
+p8007
+aS"Well then who do I have to call? I'd like to report Brady for being in possession of 13,000 rounds of restricted armor piercing ammunition and 100 guns, most of which have been illegally modified for full-auto firing capabilities, as well as an uncounted number of IEDs.   The link doesn't work, BTW."
+p8008
+aS'Jesus! Another scientific illiterate. The facts are the observations. And the point is not to test facts but to explain them with an hypothesis that suggests a prediction as a consequence that can be tested by experimentation.'
+p8009
+aS"You mean that hole that has been observed and proven, repeatedly? Climate Change is a controversy in the same way as the earth being broadly spherical is a controversy. There's a group of nutters who think the earth is flat; doesn't mean there is any reason to believe it is."
+p8010
+aS'Props for what? Refusing to read your middle school biology textbook?'
+p8011
+aS'YES, of course, they could not actually hunt, since that would be illegal, possibly a felony, whihc could lead to forfeiture of your rights.'
+p8012
+aS'and'
+p8013
+aS"Just a reminder, Belfrey: Don't hold your breath..."
+p8014
+aS'Is the little baby upset? Too bad.'
+p8015
+aS'Thats a very compact piece of logic.   I imagine that you are a very efficient individual.'
+p8016
+aS'Its better then being dead.............'
+p8017
+aS"So are you saying that the people of India aren't upset about what happened and how the police chose to hide instead of engage the enemy and thus let hundreds of people be violently murdered? Are you saying that the people of India aren't seeking changes so they can arm themselves accordingly so if something like this happens again they'll be better prepared to handle it?"
+p8018
+aS'Who but a creationist would ever make such a laughable claim?'
+p8019
+aS'At least you are aware of your own mental deficiencies.'
+p8020
+aS'And you are only trying to earn yourself brownie points in hell.'
+p8021
+aS"Here's a link for you: Two Eyes   Fish   Amphibians   Reptiles   Birds   Mammals   Coincidence?   Limited Imagination?   Interrelation?"
+p8022
+aS'I see. So, you know the souls of others? and how God will judge them?   Interesting. That certainly does settle a few things....'
+p8023
+aS'F--k\'in A! right! I don\'t want some damn MAN deciding what\'s going to be legal for my body. They have NO experience with the female anatomy except what they manage to bag, they shouldn\'t be allowed to decide for us.   They have no idea what pregnancy is like, the damage it does to our bodies and our minds, and they don\'t have to pay to support a child that we were forced to accept at knifepoint.   Where is the logic is violating women a second time? Where\'s the justification for it? Doesn\'t the life of the unintended mother account for anything at all?   Do you men have any idea of the dangerous precdent you\'d be setting up with a total ban on abortion? Women who have been raped and essentially told "You WILL have this child, you WILL carry it to term, or you WILL go to prison!" would likely commit suicide as a result, meaning that TWO lives are gonna be lost.'
+p8024
+aS'Oh, we already know a bunch of events that he played a role in. They even made it into a song!   Please allow me to introduce myself   I\'m a man of wealth and taste   I\'ve been around for long, long years   Stole many man\'s soul and faith   And I was \'round when Jesus Christ   Had his moment of doubt and pain   Made damn sure that Pilate   Washed his hands and sealed his fate   Pleased to meet you   Hope you guess my name   But what\'s puzzling you   Is the nature of my game   I stuck around St. Petersburg   When I saw it was a time for a change   Killed the Czar and his ministers   Anastasia screamed in vain   I rode a tank   Held a general\'s rank   When the blitzkrieg raged   And the bodies stank   Pleased to meet you   Hope you guess my name, oh yeah   Ah, what\'s puzzling you   Is the nature of my game, oh yeah   (woo woo, woo woo)   I watched with glee   While your kings and queens   Fought for ten decades   For the gods they made   (woo woo, woo woo)   I shouted out,   "Who killed the Kennedys?"   When after all   It was you and me   (who who, who who)   Let me please introduce myself   I\'m a man of wealth and taste   And I laid traps for troubadours   Who get killed before they reached Bombay   (woo woo, who who)   Pleased to meet you   Hope you guessed my name, oh yeah   (who who)   But what\'s puzzling you   Is the nature of my game, oh yeah, get down, baby   (who who, who who)   Pleased to meet you   Hope you guessed my name, oh yeah   But what\'s confusing you   Is just the nature of my game   (woo woo, who who)   Just as every cop is a criminal   And all the sinners saints   As heads is tails   Just call me Lucifer   \'Cause I\'m in need of some restraint   (who who, who who)   So if you meet me   Have some courtesy   Have some sympathy, and some taste   (woo woo)   Use all your well-learned politesse   Or I\'ll lay your soul to waste, um yeah   (woo woo, woo woo)   Pleased to meet you   Hope you guessed my name, um yeah   (who who)   But what\'s puzzling you   Is the nature of my game, um mean it, get down   (woo woo, woo woo)   Woo, who   Oh yeah, get on down   Oh yeah   Oh yeah!   (woo woo)   Tell me baby, what\'s my name   Tell me honey, can ya guess my name   Tell me baby, what\'s my name   I tell you one time, you\'re to blame   Oh, who   woo, woo   Woo, who   Woo, woo   Woo, who, who   Woo, who, who   Oh, yeah   What\'s my name   Tell me, baby, what\'s my name   Tell me, sweetie, what\'s my name   Woo, who, who   Woo, who, who   Woo, who, who   Woo, who, who   Woo, who, who   Woo, who, who   Oh, yeah   Woo woo   Woo woo   ~Sympathy for the Devil; by the Rolling Stones'
+p8025
+aS'Translation = "I\'ve closed my brain off and I\'ve got not nothing."'
+p8026
+aS"So you are saying that despite the majority of the public opposing gay marriage, opposing it may be the wrong direction?   Good for you. You're getting it."
+p8027
+aS'Oh my goodness. This is a trick called semantics.   I guess you got sucked in.   Yes, abortion is used as contraception unfortunately.'
+p8028
+aS'We have a terrorist supporter among us, objecting to restrictions on terrorists! Why do you hate America?'
+p8029
+aS"See, this is where reading the page would have helped you out alot. No where does it say that organisms evolve with a changing environment. That's what WW would like it to say, but it says nothing of the sort. All it talks about is a different approach to modeling cell behavior. Critical reading skills, they're really essential if you're going to try to debate science."
+p8030
+aS'Seeing the article you linked to was written in 2002, over three years ago, do you think the author could perhaps incorporate the new data and rename his piece, "Maybe There Is Some Truth About Pedophile Priests After All"?'
+p8031
+aS'So what? The allele frequency, even in your example has still changed. A change in an allele frequency in a population over time is, by definition, evolution. What did you think that evolution was?'
+p8032
+aS'I think there are few better things than self-evident irony. I love it.'
+p8033
+aS"Well I don't know about you guys, but I was baptized so I'm out of that eternal damnation thing."
+p8034
+aS'Really. Have you got any quotes from them endorsing monopolies?'
+p8035
+aS'Oh, his brain wasn\'t there, huh? Musta just been involuntary reflexes that allowed him walk from a store to the "home" that he stayed at.   Oh, and please show me some cases of foetuses walking to the store like this man did when he was attacked, and then we can start comparing.   Looks like VT is back with his usual strawmen and sensationalism.'
+p8036
+aS'Well, at some point they are sentient beings(surely you agree), that\'s the point that the fetus becomes a person in my opinion. Before that it\'s not really too bad. I don\'t have a problem with people "having sex in an improper way" or choosing to "screw each other how they would like to screw each other". I do have a problem with people creating a feeling being and then killing it, as is the case when fetuses become sentient and are aborted. You also say that it is my opinion, which it is, but it is also your opinion. You have said that women who have abortion because they arn\'t responsible are making bad decisions.   First off, it\'s not punishment, it\'s taking responsibility for your actions. I have addressed the men, this is what I\'m talking about, it was in my last post. Are you really reading the my posts? I said "They(men) should have to raise the child also as they are equally to blame". If I could take some of the birthing pain from women and give it to mwn, I would. The bottom line is that women know that if pregnancy occurs their will be pain, yet some do not protect themselves against it. Why would it then be my responsibility to take that pain into account? They accepted the risk when the didn\'t try to protect against it.   Yeah, like the one that I addressed the men in, right?   I have never said that we should punish 12 year old orphans. Show me where I said that. I said that the parents should help raise the child if they have the means. Would that put a slight damper on the 12 year olds social life? Probably, but she will be an adult soon enough and she should take some responsibility for her actions. The father should have to do the same. Why do you admit that the actions of the 25 year old are tragic but you don\'t want her to take responsibility?   How does being poor limit your responsibility to protect yourself? I know a poor woman who has 10 kids just hoping that one day she would find a man that would be willing to help raise the rest. Also, what do you mean by "less fortunate? It never happened but she kept having kid after kid and hoping it would. Should she be excused for her behavior because she is poor? No, she kept going to BARS looking for good men. Bad choices = bad outcome. Do you think that this is proof that abortion is necessary? Nope, abortion IS NOT the answer in cases like this, only responsibility can solve the problem. The bad thing is that only one of the men do anything for the children and he doesn\'t do enough. She has never filed for child support and the kids are almost never disciplined.   I don\'t want to do anything as far as laws are concerned. I would recommend that she and the father raise the child, but sadly that may not happen. I will just continue to have pity for all of the irresponsible "lovers" out there.'
+p8037
+aS"Is there some sort of a symbolic potent phallic aspect to holding a gun in one's hand? Is Sarah Palin being a manly sort when she shoots a wolf from a helicopter?"
+p8038
+aS'No. Anyone who sticks to beliefs that a god created the earth just 6,000 years ago is an XXXXX. People are free to believe that a god created the Earth billions of years ago though without deserving the "XXXXX" label.   Hope this clarifies things for you.'
+p8039
+aS"There are a few slight problems with that theory. First of all the evidence fits perfectly with that book you speak of. If predicts that all creatures came about suddenly and completely formed. This is all we have ever observed. The earliest creatures -according to your theories dating- had incredibly formed eyes etc. and no ancestors among the fossils   It also predicts that animals will produce the same kind of animals , this is all that has ever in the history of the world been observed.   +It predicts the heavens will show a perfect order and can be used for signs and for seasons and for days and for years. That is all that has ever been observed in the history of the world.   It predicts that recorded human history will be less that 10k years. That is what we observe.   It predicts that man has always been intelligent and ancient language and buildings confirm this.   It predicts that billions of fossils will be found in rock laid down by water all over the world, this we have observed.   It predicts there will be pathways in the sea, this is so.   It predicts that the heating of the air will create wind and this is so.   It predicts that the sea is the source of rain and it is so.   It predicted 800 years in advance that the Messiah the King would ride in to erusalem on a donkey to the exact day . That He would be crucified and his side pierced with a spear and cry out My God , My God why has thou forsaken me ?and it was so. It was predicted the ones who crucified him would cast lots for his garments and they did. That three days later He would rise from the dead and He did.   That DNA mutates does not prove anything other that it mutates. It is almost always harrmul or fatal and has never been observed to change one kind of an animal into another.   That the species that adapt to their environment survive and those that don't die is a self evident truth not evidence. About as intellectually stimulating as saying most things who fail to survive die.   Fossils exist. Now that is a brilliant statement. Why not say , water exist , or sand is?   All dating methods are based on circular logic. If the date agrees with the theory it is correct , if not it must be contaminated. It is based on an assumtion of the quantity of some radioactive substance in a material at some time in the past and how much has decayed when compared to the rate of decay gives us a date. Fortunately we already knew the earth was very old or evolution could not have occured. We know how old fossils are because of the rocks they are in and how old the rocks are by the fossils in the rocks. If the 2 are in the wrong place then we know there was an overthrust which is basically a miracle from God which is allowed because evolution needs it.   Life forms in the millions so therefore it must has started out as a random bunch of chemicals that created itself on a planet that created itself and evolved into the millions we see now. Another brilliant deduction. You are on a roll.   Believe our eyes. Oh you must mean all those times you are walking down the beach and trip all over the lobe finned fish coming on shore for the first time. Or the thousands of times we have seen a lizard with half a wing or a beaver giving birth to an armadillo. Yes , seeing is believing.   You present a brilliant argument. How could anyone argue with your brand of logic? That would be senseless."
+p8040
+aS"Actually they apologised because it's a bit of a fad amongst the limp-wristed politicians at the moment. And anyway, the blood is fairly even on both sides."
+p8041
+aS'And LIVING ones even more... ok Adolph.'
+p8042
+aS'Please stop demonstrating your complete inability to understand evolutionary theory. How is Texas Stadium meaningful in the population of the earth? Do various blimp pilots who soar over Texas Stadium have better sexual success than you? You seem to be a bit of a sad sack.'
+p8043
+aS'Hmmm... interesting. Where does this inalianable right derive from and how does it really work? I mean, clearly you cannot create your own army called Islamic Jihad of Al queda Supporters and start to develop weapons of mass destruction on your own farm, regardless if that organisation actually interfer with someone else.   As for bootlicking   Please drop the rethorics and explain how you mean instead.'
+p8044
+aS"So what you're saying is that by mentioning both in the same post, I'm saying that unless someone is a YEC then they aren't a christian? Because that is what you attributed to me. Yet you have yet to post evidence of me saying that to anyone. Nor have you supported your original claim here, you said this: Last I checked, no credible fossil fuel firm hired YEC geologists. Prove this assertion since you researched it thoroughly enough to start a thread about."
+p8045
+aS'HEY!! We agree on something.'
+p8046
+aS"So let's just kill them and be done with it. Is that what you're saying?"
+p8047
+aS'You believe that your interpretation of the Christian Bible is more correct than his, and he believes that his interpretation of the Christian Bible is more correct than yours. This is quite simple, but that\'s never really helped you see the problem before...   Yeesh. Even when I spell it out, he still can\'t keep it straight.   No, marc, you\'re looking at the wrong quote. Try reading what I write.   Yes, you can expect accusations of quote mining to be common when you commonly quote mine. Say, do you think these two things could possibly be related?   "Concise and readable" takes a backseat to accurate. As I said, Miller overemphasizes views outside the mainstream of atheism and tries to paint all of atheism with the same brush. In fact, he picks a single atheist to spend three paragraphs on, then moves past his exaggerated claim. And with good reason.   marc\'s impeccable reading comprehension strikes again. marc thinks I was responding to a different point, despite the clear explanation of his "citation about atheists using evolutionary findings to support their concepts."   I figure it\'s his latest attempt at a dodge. Ignorance and incomprehensible babbling has gotten old to him, apparently.   Considering atheists don\'t believe in the supernatural, there\'s nothing else left. Now tell me how your truism actually means anything.   Lewontin did not say to forbid access to the Bible or other texts. You simply assume that he said that because you want to build as much of a strawman as you possibly can. See, if you had just quoted Lewontin instead of trying to censor his words, maybe you would have understood. ... Then again, probably not. I keep forgetting that your Persecution switch is fused in the "on" position.   Yes, Lewontin mentions the New York Times... the home furnishing supplement of the New York Times, in metaphoric comparison to the stage set of The Honeymooners. But you don\'t have a problem with your blatant misrepresentation, do you? No, no, anything to brainwash the kiddies and advance your delusion of massive conspiracy...   If Miller truly does understand Lewontin\'s point, he does a pisspoor job of explaining it. Lewontin says to eliminate the irrational and employ the intellectual. Frankly, I see nothing wrong with this; why do you?   The best case you\'ll ever be able to make regarding Lewontin\'s claims in this book is that he believes that a certain path to truth is the most effective. You claim that your path to truth is the most effective. Once again, we have no reason to believe either one of you over the other based on these statements alone.   Which Dawkins books that promote atheism (and by atheism, I mean atheism, not evolution) are required reading in public schools? Cite specific instances and include evidence that the ACLU rejected the cases.   This coming from the person who omitted so much that I had to elaborate on and quote from the book multiple times? No thanks, I\'d rather make fun of your whining and your incomprehensible comprehension.   Oh, you didn\'t read the part where he distanced himself from atheism? The one where he explained that evolution is compatible with theism? I guess you missed it... It was only, you know, the vast majority of the book.   Oh, good, I get to do this again! They\'re not Christians, just like Judge Jones isn\'t a Lutheran. (Your foot should still be in your mouth over that one, but you never learn.) They\'re all phonies, aren\'t they, marc? Lucky for marc, he can accurately assess people\'s belief systems without knowing the slightest thing about their beliefs. But I have this "power," too:marc is an atheist. Sure, he says all this fundie Christian stuff, but he\'s really an atheist. I know it in my heart because my own belief system, infallible and based upon the teachings of God himself, tells me so. I know, because I know Christians, and marc\'s not a Christian. He\'s just a big phony.   And there you go... atheist. Clearly, I\'ve correctly labeled you, and you are nothing but a false teacher.Pathetic, marc. Absolutely, positively pathetic.   In other words, marc has absolutely no resolution to this conundrum except to leave us with this oh-so-powerful exchange:   marc [about Miller]: "He\'d think differently if he interpreted the Bible the same way I do."   Miller [about marc]: "He\'d think differently if he interpreted the Bible the same way I do."   *ahem*....   marc [about Miller]: "He\'d think differently if he interpreted the Bible the same way I do."   Miller [about marc]: "He\'d think differently if he interpreted the Bible the same way I do."   Yes, I\'d speculate that he doesn\'t have such trouble "stomaching" priests. After all, he shares their beliefs, and not those of preachers of other (e.g. Protestant) sects, many of whom refuse to recognize Catholicism as truly Christian...   Keep on diggin\', marc. I love helping you reach new lows.'
+p8048
+aS"Your use of language is rather colourful here (lying propagandist!) and smacks of hyperbole. What is being critisised here is bad application of the scientific method in relation to National Geographic's articles on the nature of relationship between birds and dinosaurs. I think Olsen makes some very pertinent points, but at no stage is he saying that evolution does not occur or the possibility that there is no link between any theropods and birds ever.   What he correctly draws attention to is poor peer review and less than conclusive evidence to support the hypothesis of the article's author. In turn this is a stinging criticism of the NG given its high profile, reputation and claim to being a leading forum for the presentation of science in a popular format."
+p8049
+aS"It's sophomoric remarks like that that hurt the gay cause in America.   God isn't mocked, though. And I doubt the people are either.   And I'm glad California outlawed the sin. The only thing you have left is to hope the far left, spiritually-stunted judges in the US Supreme Court are pro Sodom and Gomorrah."
+p8050
+aS'So you\'re claiming that you "transformed" from part of your mother to a human. So you\'re claiming that you were once almost your mom\'s arm or leg? lol! Biologically, this is simply a farce statement.'
+p8051
+aS'Give me three good reasons why a thirteen year old girl from Plam Beach, that are practial not religous please, should not have an abortion and I will promise not to make fun of you. Much.   Judges do this everyday. This case just made the news.'
+p8052
+aS'So did you read his mind to determine exactly why he bolded that particular set of words? You are the first mind reader I have encountered here. And considering your disdain and rejection of science from cosmology to biology what does it matter if something is terrible science. According to you all science should be terrible. Why do you attempt to use a tool which you reject as being useful?'
+p8053
+aS'You mean you can choose how you accept it?'
+p8054
+aS"So in other words, you're saying that somewhere along the lines, God changed his mind."
+p8055
+aS'And yet you seem to feel we should leave these issues to the government, which has done nothing but corporate takeovers in regard to banks, automotive industries, and now health care.'
+p8056
+aS"Because parents of children without Downs never die prematurely.   C'mon Simone."
+p8057
+aS'Well you never know cause your pro life and for the death penalty.'
+p8058
+aS"Almighty nature? You mean you believe in the universe? Welceom to the club. I think we can all agree we're part of the universe. Except for skeptics, they delude themsleves into thinking they cannot know (which they claim to know).   -Mach"
+p8059
+aS"Yes, you are 100% correct. Criminals would be sure to pay the tax on their illegally owned pistol, just like they pay income tax on drug money.   Oh, wait they don't pay tax on their drug money.   Most criminals break the law you see."
+p8060
+aS"So you're going to live with the Amish eh?"
+p8061
+aS'Wrong again sherlock. All of this animosity is after the fact to why radical islam considers our christian Nation to be hypocritical due to the exporting of our pop culture of hedonistic sexual and moral depravity. That was why they signed fatwas against us originally. It is the abortions, gay marriage and our women walking around half naked that caused that lack of respect to occur. And you can thank the immoral left for that contribution to Americas image. It was the Left that coined the phrase, "If it feels good, do it," Not the Right.'
+p8062
+aS"Are we talking about the same Obama here? The same one, who's head of the DHS, told law enforcement to be on the lookout for anyone who disagreed with the government?"
+p8063
+aS"*walks in*   *looks at posters*   *notes no fundies have spoken out yet*   Well, it's OBVIOUS that you don't have a discerning spirit and are thinking with your carnal mind. If you'd only have accepted the truth of the undying and never changing word of God, then you'd understand.   You just gottsta believe first.   It's as simple as that.   But, no, you go right on hating God and you'll soon see where that will get you.   BURNING IN HELL!!!   Hahahah, FOOL!   You are soo going to roast. In pain. FOR EVER!   But, that's not my words.   That's Gods!   Me?   I love you.   I love you long time.   Like forever even.   If only you'd accept Jesus into your heart.   Cause if you did.   You'd see no contradictions in what you posted.   Seriously...   Drink the flavoraid.   edit:   Capitalize, size increase, italicize and underline various parts of my post. Color them some and insert random, out of contest bible passages to support my claims."
+p8064
+aS'In the case of Demorats and liberals; it is monkey see, monkey do.'
+p8065
+aS'And the man who impregnated the woman should walk away totally free of all responsibility!   Spoken just like an total misogynist!'
+p8066
+aS"Well, this guy is so bad ad arguing and so good at alienating people that if we sent him into the abortion forum, it is likely, he'd be so ineffective at defending his pro-life position thathe'd actually be contributing to the pro-choice position..."
+p8067
+aS"Tiger is entitled. Because of his money and fame, he's entitled to some hot and not-so-hot action."
+p8068
+aS'If I ever see Arch defend a position at EvC I will eat my hat and the hat of my fiance, too.'
+p8069
+aS'Yeah, I should, then we could have a more intelligent converstation   You understand that in the Plaxico Burris case, the "authorities" did just exactly that, found ammo of a different caliber and assumed he had those guns too. Article today on that at RKBA.   Of course, you would probably be more interested in this:   Texas jury jails man 35 years for marijuana possession | Raw Story At first I thought maybe you had come to see old Doc and got waylaid on the way. Nice to see you posting whatever!'
+p8070
+aS"Is that what you said right before they started banning assault weapons? 'Oh, let's just see what Sarah Brady wants to do?' Obviously, you're gullible. Since you're such a brainiac and all, why don't you visit the UN website and see what your beloved UN is up to?   And again, read this slower this time (if that helps) 'On the other hand, not one acceptable reason for individuals owning guns is mentioned.'"
+p8071
+aS'And if that was the accepted rule for Constitutional interpretation we would still have Jim Crow and the 14th Amendment would be as useful as the 3rd.   Total Fail on your part again Galileo . . .'
+p8072
+aS'So atheists are capable of goodness, love, kindness, generosity and sympathy but they have no meaning unless one conforms the the fundamentalist christian morality.'
+p8073
+aS'Like talking to Richard?'
+p8074
+aS'And pray tell what new and interesting creatures have you seen the present ones evolve into this week?'
+p8075
+aS'Wow ehat a brave new world you live in.... Now lets say just 1% of all gun owners resisted (in the us that is several hundred thousand peppered through the land). With media attention to such infighting between government and citizens how do you deal with this?'
+p8076
+aS"Here's a novel idea - how about the right gives up the abstinence programmes (scientifically unproven) and improves access to and information on b/c to stop women having UPPs in the first place? Just a thought."
+p8077
+aS'And you say juleacatz is the one who views pregnancy as a punishment for women.'
+p8078
+aS"Like the crusades and the inquisition? How about the Southern Baptist Convention, formed at the end of the Civil War with the express purpose to discriminate against blacks? And of course, the KKK and the Aryan Brotherhood make the same claims as you. Of course, you're going to tell me that you are a christian and they aren't. But when people tell me they are christians you aren't always around so I just never turn my back on them. That way, even if they are follow that strange pull to make a bad decision, I will at least have my eye on my money."
+p8079
+aS'Ahh. Now I see why you turned into an agnostic, if you even believed Christianity in the first place.'
+p8080
+aS'Really? I have not seen one coherent idea from both of them combined.'
+p8081
+aS'But don\'t you see?   They aren\'t sure.   They don\'t know.   They didn\'t "prove" anything!!'
+p8082
+aS"Oh, dear. I seem to have lost you again. 'Peer' just means a group of people holding the same biases."
+p8083
+aS'No, I for one dislike your posts because I know you intentionally write irrational posts to help support your religious cause.   Just for the record montalban, basically every single legitimate scientist is "pro-evolution". Creation theory is not taught in public schools, not by chance, but because...*gasp* it\'s RELIGIOUS MUMBO JUMBO. There is no evidence to support it. Creation fiction has made no progress with it\'s "faith-based" (lackofevidence) with rational people.   And I\'ll also say that I\'d welcome ad hominem over irrational thinking any day. Ad hominem is just a lack of patience, or someone who doesn\'t care to hide their emotion or opinion. Irrational thinking on the other hand is often only cured by death. Someone guilty of ad hominem can still hold a rational debate. The irrational..well, why bother?   -Mach'
+p8084
+aS"Apparently you've got one powerful set of rose colored glassed.   I guess you spend a lot of money on those 1-900 psychics too.   Nowhere is it scientifically inaccurate? Are you serious?   Waxy"
+p8085
+aS"Well you better hurry up. Aren't you like 113 years old or something?"
+p8086
+aS'I\'d rather be "offed" than to live with a wild eyed screaming banshee like yourself setting policy and demanding impossible tasks.   Are the police SOB\'S too? I don\'t suppose you would object to the friendly neighborhood rapist getting shot by a gun owning neighbor now would you?'
+p8087
+aS'**   Again, sez u.'
+p8088
+aS"What's your point? Unicorns breathe toxic gas and have low density, so they can get around all they want."
+p8089
+aS'Biblical literism is the only way to view the Bible. I could \'metaphorically\' say that Dawkins really believes in God in his own way, because he said that ID is possible for this planet because aliens may have seeded the first self replicating molecule here Millions of years ago.   That is silliness or even foolishness. Nothing taken literally from the Bible is irrational. God is rational and His creation is rational.   In fact, the "Scientific Method" originated from the idea that the Physical Universe operates on rational physical laws because the Creator did it in logical fashion.   What did we have b4 that? "Dragons eating the moon during an eclipse\'? Angry gods causing volcanoes to erupt? Apollo racing his fiery chariot across the sky every day?'
+p8090
+aS"So reading and literature aren't to be taught?   I love it. More stupid, paranoid parents for me to mock mock mock. They are sooo part of a great big problem. A problem that sees my kid getting threatened and bullied - so I feel totally justified in my mocking. Frankly, there are days I would like to kick them in the teeth."
+p8091
+aS'Six people out of, at the very least one million, at the very most five million.   Are you really gonna prosecute one million plus people based on the actions of six individuals? Are you expecting a 1,000% perfection standard from gun owners?   How many catholic priests have molested little children? Should we hold them all responsible?   How many gun control supporters also support the killing of unborn children?   Or better yet, how many game animals have died of starvation and disease, because gun control supporters lobbied against hunting seasons?'
+p8092
+aS'I loved this part:   So Miller says that ID is less worthy, scientifically, than even Young Earth Creationism!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!'
+p8093
+aS"I don't know how this can be true. Thank God that I didn't grow up with my biological father. I'm not really interested in being a jerk."
+p8094
+aS'As long as we cut off the privates of the fathers as well.'
+p8095
+aS"Zardozy, honey, whushoo gotta b'lieve in?   You related to that Frenchie guy with the skinny wife?"
+p8096
+aS'If we did not have criminals, we wouldnt have "shoot outs" as you so call them.'
+p8097
+aS"So you're a historian now?   Yes, you are right - the Civil War was fought to keep the union in tact. But, it is also a fact that Abraham Lincoln, the Commander in Chief of the Union Army, did not believe that the union could be preserved unless slavery was abolished.   According to who? Though it may not have been practiced to its fullness, it in no way follows that all men are not created equal.   Someone who actually had knowledge about the Civil War would certainly know that Lincoln did not believe the Union could be preserved unless slavery was abolished.   And I don't expect you to. The reason you won't go into how all men were created equal during reconstruction is because you cannot prove that all men are not created equal."
+p8098
+aS'And liquor.'
+p8099
+aS'So you\'re saying that God is a "respector"?-of-persons - iow, the mom\'s "more"-important to *God*? than the unborn.'
+p8100
+aS'No biggie, right? Typical creationist "teach the controversy" stuff. But wait! The "encyclopedia" follows this up with it\'s damning evidence to show the many holes in the ToE! Read on evolutionists, and despair!!'
+p8101
+aS"Oh but you forgot the rest of my secret plan. Just like Hitler, first you take the guns, then you send them to 'jail'. A jail with 'showers' and 'ovens'.   The most important part of the plan is make sure anti-gunners don't have guns. Which ofcourse is not a problem."
+p8102
+aS'How were they able to get an "aggravated assault" charge pinned on you?   I\'m assuming she never had a mark on herself to show the cops.   Had you two had a previous domestic call history with the police?   Hopefully justice will be served when you get your day in court.   Then you\'ll get to experience the wonder that is "family court", if you haven\'t already.   You have my sympathies.'
+p8103
+aS"And let's do away with these stinking debate forums!   So if it's silly to discuss that, what about brand of trucks? Would that also be silly?   V10 Gasoline or 6.0 Diesel?   How big a tire can you put on a stock 3/4 ton truck?   See, you're right. It's just silly."
+p8104
+aS'No, they don\'t. Creationists do. "Why haven\'t all animals turned into humans?"'
+p8105
+aS'And I propose we put lunatics who make threats to completely legitimate doctors in a state mental ward for a few years to straighten them out.   As to the abortion issue, are the pro lifers really that willing to risk one of their precious fetuses over a traffic ticket?!'
+p8106
+aS'so is it better to be murdered by a knife than a gun?   final thought, you are advacating removing hundrides of millions of dollers of property from millions of legal gun owners, becouse of thousandes of scum bags.'
+p8107
+aS"You're starting to sound like someone who understands evolution. I don't see your argument here, you're basically supporting the steps necessary for natural selection. What you describe is one small step for evolution, you just have to repeat this 1,000,000 times over various other environmental and competitive contraints and viola, you'll probably see evolution at work on a scale that you can recognize.   You're almost there montalban!   -Mach"
+p8108
+aS'Oh gosh , a whole bunch of cut/pastes from a 14 year old that is showing off their lack of knowledge. These are not unknown situations, and are very easily explained.'
+p8109
+aS'And I suspect WW understands it about as well as you do...'
+p8110
+aS'wow....there is a real person under there. Good luck on your recovery, chemist.'
+p8111
+aS"Well, actually, I did find it funny even though I'm a male (or at least, I think I am?)...probably because it's a joke and I know I'm not like the stereo-typical male so I can laugh at them.   PS, I'm so unique because I'm so humble and would never brag about my bulging muscles, manhood and amazing intellect."
+p8112
+aS"So you refuse to engage in an informal debate on the topic, but you all of a sudden are itchin' for a formal debate? How about you make the challenge?"
+p8113
+aS"I know you don't. So what?"
+p8114
+aS'Oh.. that makes sense. Because, it sounds exactly like modern day republicans.'
+p8115
+aS'(Playing devil\'s advocate)   And, by what authority would you deny a woman\'s "right to choose" an abortion that happens to be "late in her pregnancy?"'
+p8116
+aS'You are like, so totally noble and sensitive! I really admire your pro-humanity stance. That is going out on limb.'
+p8117
+aS'So the real victim here is that society won\'t be as you WANT it to be, and that\'s the real "casualty" here...   Wow!'
+p8118
+aS'I believe Alan Keyes already have used that term on us.   (Alan Keyes, the ultra-concervative Republican Candidate for the Illinois Senate seat - in opposition to Barack Obama. The Maryland resident the Republican party had to recruit because they couldn\'t find anyone else in their right mind who would go against Barack. Also the very same Maryland resident/Television talkshow host who beratted Hilary Clinton for moving to NY and expecting to be able to "represent" NY\'ers. Yeah, look who\'s the hypocrit now.)'
+p8119
+aS'What about them? Is this a question?'
+p8120
+aS'Nor is there any need for some mythical molecular elemental, nebulas natural selection, or mystical transitionals based on peicemeal forensics and antithestic rhetoric.'
+p8121
+aS"You mean to tell me that you would deny a woman's right to her own body for a zygote, yet you have no problem murdering real human beings? Sounds like a conservative to me..."
+p8122
+aS'I think the same about religion. Why should you get your way and tryannise women, and I not get mine?'
+p8123
+aS'How do you know?'
+p8124
+aS'Well, j, the blah blah blah part was pretty important.   It said, "Seife is referring to how information continues to exist in some form after it has been violently altered; the smoke from a burning newspaper contains data about the newspaper\'s content, albeit impossible to reconstruct, and even black holes seem not to truly eradicate the information in the matter they consume. All of which has nothing to do with Dembski\'s claim..." which is true. One definition has nothing to do with the other. Blah blah blah.   http://www.uncommondescent.com/index.php/archives/903'
+p8125
+aS'Well bravo for you - they must not be all that good considering. Or did you simply learn to be deceptive yourself and confuse that with deception by others? Who can say?'
+p8126
+aS"No, you're the NRA's wet dream."
+p8127
+aS'How tolerant. Lets talk about the Spanish Inquisition.'
+p8128
+aS'what about to d-y-k-e-s marrying each other, would you call it "butch-ery"?'
+p8129
+aS"Well, I suppose creationists would object to careful definition of terms and the assiduous distinguishing of fact from non-fact, wouldn't they? It runs counter to all they hold dear."
+p8130
+aS'If blacks are offered a bus ride, why does it matter where they sit while they are on the bus? They get all the same benefits.   What\'s the beef...except that you can\'t say that you\'re at the "front of the bus"?'
+p8131
+aS'Because you are a Darwinist - this predictible insult testifies to my rightness.   Your approval/compliments would of supported my wrongness.   Ray M.'
+p8132
+aS'Oh they think they can Doc! They think that we gun owners are the terrorist!   Personally. I think that all of this talk about Gun Control is happening because they are mad. They are MAD that a Black Man! Is in the White House!'
+p8133
+aS'Oh, I get it\xe2\x80\xa6 Flashlights and I-Pods have souls and consciousness.'
+p8134
+aS'and where did they find the participants for this study, bath houses and bars? Gay men are a hidden population in statistical relms. It is very hard to get a true random sample of data on gay men. Studies will say whatever the funder of the study wants it to say. You just get data from the right place. If you want gay men to look like raging alcoholics get your study participants in a bar. If you want them to look like sexaholics then you get your study subjects in bathouses. The truth is that to have honest statistical data you need RANDOM SAMPLES.'
+p8135
+aS"You know what is absolutely incredible about you little child? You constantly make the most blatantly ignorant and irrational statements which have no basis at all in reality, yet you actually think you are being intelligent. (Note childs quote in my siggy, below.) And you really should look up definitions before using words when you have no idea what they mean. Didn't you start a thread about that, hypocrite?   You are talking to a person who accepts Intelligent Design as a rational explanation for Mans origin, yet you are so ill informed that you allege he is aligned with a belief in animism, when animism was founded in pagan religions and asserts that pretty much everything has a soul and spirit.   Animism (from Latin anima (soul, life)[1][2]) commonly refers to a religious belief that souls or spirits exist in animals, plants and other entities, in addition to humans.[3] Animism may also attribute souls to natural phenomena, geographic features, and even manufactured objects. Religions which emphasize animism in this sense include Shinto, Hinduism and pagan faiths such as folk religions and Neopaganism.Animism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia   Now show me a christian who defends ID, believes that, you mental midget."
+p8136
+aS"Sinjin, we aren't talking about the 17th and 18th centuries."
+p8137
+aS"And they wonder why the science community doesn't take them seriously..."
+p8138
+aS"That is your belief. You've no evidence provided other than it is just your belief."
+p8139
+aS'You know, I\'d believe that more if there were people like the Shindler family who have pushed for federal courts to intervene and destroy the sanctity of marriage. There is nothing you could do or say that would convince me that Americans somehow have any respect for marriage whatsoever. What heterosexuals have done to destroy this institution from the inside out only tells me that heteros are simply spoiled children who have the attitude of:   "If we can\'t make it work, we aren\'t going to allow anyone else to come in and do marriage better."'
+p8140
+aS"Since when was having the gov't recognize a marriage a human right?"
+p8141
+aS"Oh no. The main disagreement between theistic evolutionists and Fundmentalists is that Fundies aren't worshipping God, but a false idol of their own making."
+p8142
+aS"And if I did then so what? Hiter's Mom and Saddam's Mom both were given the option to abort their pregnancies by nurses and decided against it.   So I guess this makes pro-lifers responsible for the holocaust and the slaughter of Kurds?"
+p8143
+aS"Me, too. I'd probably throw in some counseling as well, just for starters."
+p8144
+aS'You know, I\'m thinking of suggesting that they put a permanent link to an online dictionary on this forum.   http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=designed   You could take "intelligently" to mean that the being is conscious of what it\'s doing; that it\'s doing what it is purposefully.'
+p8145
+aS'How strange. It seems that Habbit\'s definition of the word definition is meaningless. Physicists and chemists can define what they mean by the word "carbon," but according to Habbit that is just their opinion. According to Habbit, carbon can be a chocolate candy meant to be eaten in a car. That may be his opinion and he considers it as valid as specific definitions assigned to words used by experts in any given field.'
+p8146
+aS'Not!   OK, too short, Not!'
+p8147
+aS'And you have just described "creation science." No application of the scientific method. No testing. The conclusions are known before the judicious quoting of scientific authority has even begun. I notice that you use one of those quotes of a scientific authority below. You show that you are what you decry.'
+p8148
+aS"It has a financial impact on ALL taxpayers. To say that it has no impact on anyone else is disengenuous.   Wow! You can read Wiki's pseudo-knowledge. I'm impressed!   Now, tell me how the court can rule a California Constitutional Amendment to be unconstitutional before it strikes down the Federal Law that gives states the FEDERAL right to ignore other state's gay marriages."
+p8149
+aS"So you've never repeated a sin?"
+p8150
+aS"I'm not going to go into what is wrong with the idea of God without knowing it is what we mean we speak the word.   Excuse me if I am mistaken, but it seems that you are getting defensive on your belief before I even begin a debate. I'm simply looking for any one wishing to participate on the nature / existance of God.   If you find my questions to be complete nonsense and that I'm only here to critize theism than you need not participate.   thebootfitter,"
+p8151
+aS'Just can\'t satisify "them thar\' Moralizers." I remember the election of 1960, and how many were worried about JFK taking his "orders from Rome." Maybe that is why we are a land of laws, not of men.'
+p8152
+aS"Well, then, I guess that in America we can't possibly be safe from kill-happy gunners can we?"
+p8153
+aS'Have you seen who our current President is?'
+p8154
+aS'If you dont believe that muslims love life they will cut your head right off! Its an easy choice if you ask me.'
+p8155
+aS'oh, sure...ok...whatever you say.'
+p8156
+aS"Target shooting and handgun hunting, for starters. There's also self-defense, although not many people seem to have a great desire to defend themselves.   If there's no legal use for a handgun, then why do all those cops carry them?"
+p8157
+aS'Like the crazy idea the Earth goes around the Sun.'
+p8158
+aS"So it's alright for a Evo to insult you and go off on a tangent, and expect to get answer. What's the point in answering if your being mocked, before you give answer. Now I know why there are few Creo's on this forum."
+p8159
+aS'i think slave holder\'s asked a similar question to people who believed slavery was wrong.   "what are they worth anyways?? why do they deserve to be treated like us?" hmm'
+p8160
+aS"you know what..you are right, any unwanted person should be killed. Lets start with nursing homes and then move on to mental health clinics. After that, we should kill all the poor people because they don't really help society that much. OH! and don't forget the handicapped...who would wanna live like that? Kill them...it is merciful...who cares what they want anyway, they don't know what they are saying. Then we will have a wonderful society"
+p8161
+aS'Oh, and I found this from here:   http://www.jci.org/cgi/content/full/112/9/1291   "The discovery of species-specific as well as universal intercellular signaling molecules reveals that bacteria interact with one another using surprisingly sophisticated mechanisms of communication. In nature, bacteria are rarely found in isolation, and evolution appears to have provided a mechanism that allows them to detect when they are in heterogeneous communities, to assess the proportions of self and other in mixed-species environments, and to respond to this information by appropriately modulating gene expression."   It appears biologists haven\'t gotten it wrong, evolution is the explaination for bacterial signaling. And the bacteria still isn\'t exhibiting any intelligence. The only one getting anything wrong here is you.'
+p8162
+aS'Could you avoid your constant use of strawman`s fallacies please?'
+p8163
+aS"So, whether the embryo/fetus/whatever-you-want-to-call-it has rights seems to be a non-issue. Because, for pro-choice folk, even if it has rights, it still is preferable to ensure that it can be legally killed.   Of course, it is obvious to everyone that an entity does not need rights in order to have legal protections. But I'll let that slide for now."
+p8164
+aS'Blah, blah, blah.   Stop throwing out discredited and biased stories. Explain in your own terms, exactly how having a gun makes you more likely to be shot. Explain the mechanics of how this works. Go on and try, make some sense rather than cherry picking poorly executed "studies" that prove nothing.   You made the claim that if you have a gun in your possession, this fact magnifies your chances of somehow being shot. What you suggest can only happen if magic somehow exists, like the legally-owned guns sends out powerful magnetic waves to attract the criminals and hypnotizes them to shoot in a situation that they normally wouldn\'t shoot.'
+p8165
+aS'Repeating superstitious nonsense makes it no less mythological than the first, second and third time you were shown it to be so. Skeletons, even from the BRONZE age, let alone your incorrect reference to the stone age, are not fossils.'
+p8166
+aS'as in anyone can purchase a fire arm without a background check or gun safety training? not a good option. my apology if that was a failed sarcasm.   -a|ex'
+p8167
+aS'I presume that is a joke. Criminals have always had guns ban or not'
+p8168
+aS'Good lesson! Always take the easy way out to try and avoid consequences of actions. Instead of leaving a note on a car saying you accidently hit you...you should just casually drive away. Thanks Simone!   probably because this is an abortion forum and not a forum about the Iraq War..not only that, there is no parallel.   the fetus would be a real person...and it seems like....in order to make the iraq war/abortion connection....you would have to support the war!'
+p8169
+aS'Time to get a helmet...'
+p8170
+aS'http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/25/wo.../25orphan.html   But they are not fetuses, alas, so who gives a damn?'
+p8171
+aS"Really! Why not? I'm very interested.   I think you're wrong, but I'm interested. Why?   I think you're right, but prisoners usually marry women, don't they?"
+p8172
+aS"Don't count on it. Republicans do not believe in equality, individual freedom, or human rights. They only kowtow to their religious right masters. If Republicans trully belived in individual freedom, equality, and human rights the would wholeheartedly support this legislation."
+p8173
+aS"People with big egos have libidos that keep up. what's new? It's an unfortunate accompanying characteristic.   The only reason that this was even posted was because it was another attempt to discredit anyone that is against gay marriage. The fact that most politicians cheat isn't a revelation."
+p8174
+aS'Read what i actually wrote for a change Yank.'
+p8175
+aS"You claim god is unknowable (partially or otherwise, it does not matter).   You claim to know something of the unknowable, thus, you make a self-contradictory statement. Again. For what...the third time? Drop it, you're arguing illogically and I'm embarassed for you."
+p8176
+aS"So you've got nothing to offer but a whining rant? Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean that the evidence doesn't exist.   By the way, why don't you offer some reliable evidence to support your foolish claims above. Creationist web sites don't do it for me. Peer reviewed literature please."
+p8177
+aS"Where are those organizations with such scientific rigor? If they truly do exist, they must be in the position to understand the God of the Gaps they're worshipping has become microscopic."
+p8178
+aS'Ah, I see.   Your reasons are secret reasons. On a debate forum, about gay rights, you oppose it based on....well you won\'t say! Nice debate.   Who\'s really playing the game here?   I have already listed on a number of posts why it\'s not constitutional.   Since you missed it (It\'s only the first post in the thread)   For gay coupes right to be married (Or the same legal status)   1. Human rights with regards to legal classifcation and the benefits therein are desired by comitted consenting adults of the same gender.   2. It\'s a contract between two consenting adults.   3. A contract that does not violate anyone\'s legal rights or cause any significant ill effects to the public welfare.   It\'s unconstitutional to allow one group of people access to marriage rights (hetero couples only), and not allow it to female/female and male/male couples when they are obviously lobbying for it in significant numbers. It\'s now a public issue on a significant scale.   Of course, maybe if you had a REASON for objecting to gays being treated equally with regards to the rights of marriage, we would understand not only why you are reluctant to back your claim, but why your reason is also not constitutional.   You can call it games, I call it justifying my position while pointing out how opponents of gay rights, such as yourself, really can\'t make any reasonable justification for their desire to restrict human rights, other than saying "well I want to"...or in your case... "shhh...it\'s a secret".   You know what WE call it on the debate forum when one side refuses to present or rebut arguments? Losing the debate. I realize winning and losing..i.e. being right and being wrong are not concepts found in religion, where anything goes...but out here in the real world actions have consequences, and words...yes, imagine that, have specific meanings. You verbally support a movement that restricts human rights, yet won\'t give us reasons for your position. I find that appalling. Yet you are content with labeling me as "playing games". How ironic.   -Mach'
+p8179
+aS"Maryland already has the law on the books. It's effect thus far has only been to eliminate certain makes and models from the Maryland marketplace and to extinguish the sale of certain collectables."
+p8180
+aS'So if it can be operated by means other than human control, are you saying a dog can operate it, maybe a monkey, thats something we see everyday. You are trying to split hairs Penfold, for a gun to be fired weather robotically, or training a primate to fire one still requires human intervention, so stop acting stupid because you are not stupid.'
+p8181
+aS"Talking about traitors, brady you are IT. Meanwhile on the other board you started previous to cutting and running like the coward you obviously are, Bryan posted a challenge to you. If you choose to accept the challenge which I have money that you do not accept, (so don't dissapoint me), be sure to read his guidelines so you will not make strawman arguments and red herring arguments. I am betting you cannot carry on a sustained debate without falling flat on your face"
+p8182
+aS"And more people have died from anti-gun Senator Ted Kennedy's driving than will ever die from my AR-15."
+p8183
+aS'Answers include but are not limited to:   \xe2\x80\xa2 People need a solution for the Problem of Evil.   \xe2\x80\xa2 People want to have an "objective" standard for good and evil.   \xe2\x80\xa2 God said it, I believe it, that settles it.'
+p8184
+aS'We DID learn about selective hearing in health class.'
+p8185
+aS"Well good at least you are aware there is no reason beyond your opinion of morality against gay marriage. So by all means don't marry a man and the problem is solved."
+p8186
+aS'Oh, well, that convinces me.'
+p8187
+aS'Such black and white thinking places the Supreme Court and the NRA at one time in the category of gun banners. The Supreme Court stated that only firearms in common use receive Second Amendment protection. The NRA once supported a ban on Saturday Night Specials:   "Viewed realistically, junky .22 handguns that retail for as little as $7.98 . . . aren\'t suited for target shooting, handgun hunting, or police or protection purposes. Most honest-to-goodness gun owners wouldn\'t have one around. Yet the reckless use of such junk has harmed legitimate firearms ownership."   -"Restraint on TV, Cheap Handguns Wins Favor," American Rifleman, (March 1968)   "On the Saturday Night Special, we are for it [banning] 100 percent. We would like to get rid of these guns."36   -NRA Executive Vice President Maxwell Rich, Senate Hearings on Saturday Night Special Ban, (September 13, 1971)'
+p8188
+aS"So, in order to be against gay marriage, a person has to be faithful in his own marriage? Gimme a break. He supports what his constituents want him to support or he doesn't get elected. In case you haven't noticed, the majority of Americans are against gay marriage."
+p8189
+aS"oh, it's obvious that non-darwinists have no affect on you guys. Nothing will ever change your mind because your mind is not made up on the evidence...it's made up on your worldview and your belief in materialism."
+p8190
+aS'Oh, but Sina does not live in a womb so she is unimportant.'
+p8191
+aS'Is that a threat?'
+p8192
+aS'You mean to tell me you would deny a life to be lived out and someone to get away with a harmful crime?? wow, sounds like a liberal to me..'
+p8193
+aS'I dunno. Those Priuses are so small inside and out. How much explosive compound could Hasan fit into the thing and still be able to get in and drive it?'
+p8194
+aS'Of course, when wabbit says "dishonesty," he means "oversimplification"; the NMSR webpage is clearly designed for the layperson, not the geneticist. When he says "scientist," he means "shameless hack." Spetner argued that this is not an example of an increase in information until he had it repeatedly and undeniably shown to meet Spetner\'s own definition of information. Only now has he said, "Okay, so it\'s an increase, therefore it\'s not random." Classic moving the goalposts syndrome.   But if wabbit would like to continue leaning on Spetner as a "reliable source," I won\'t stop him. More fun for me.'
+p8195
+aS'OH! And I just finished breakfast...   Can anyone say, "Fly By!"'
+p8196
+aS"Could it partially be the fact that they don't want antiquated belief system dogma making their decisions? Must have access to a sonogram sounds like a lobby group attempting to sway opinion while enhancing revenue. Does the legislation force pregnant women who have not chosen abortion to have a sonogram? Raising children creates post-delivery stress syndrome."
+p8197
+aS'And you can be described as a "pre-dead corpse" as well. Histrionic revisionist linguistics only serve to push some form of dishonesty agenda that can not stand by itself on the facts. It is the coward\'s route. Are you a coward???   Golly gee. Scared already?   Ah, so the dictionary is the ultimate authority? And all the way down to the 5th definition no less? New name for you: "Dictionary boy." Thanks for demonstrating that you really are nothing but a sophist (Go look THAT up in your precious dictionary).'
+p8198
+aS"So, by your logic, if there's a bad cop in New York, then all the cops in Boise, Idaho must be bad as well."
+p8199
+aS"Well so is falling out of a building onto a piece of rebar. Or getting mashed in a car crash. There are a lot more of those than shootings but you don't seem to care. Why is that? Is it because you love to dance in blood?"
+p8200
+aS'Well feel free to disprove evolution anytime.'
+p8201
+aS'Prove something besides your ignorance? Homo-erectus and Neandertals differ in cranium size, bone size, bone structure, number of bones as well as the length and width of individual bones. I can see why people are laughing at you'
+p8202
+aS'Nothing like quoting experts willing to stick their scientific necks out, huh?   Or in your second quote:   "But it now appears the warming from greenhouse gases has been offset by a strong cooling effect from dimming - in effect two of our pollutants have been cancelling each other out.   This means that the climate may in fact be more sensitive to the greenhouse effect than previously thought."   Huh?'
+p8203
+aS'So your claim is that the laws of physics have changed? You see, it is not a matter of design. It is a matter of the physical limits of wood. Wood is flexable, and the longer the piece of wood, the more bend there is in it. Possibly you have seen a roof with wood supports that spans a large area. To do it requires huge trusses unless you add column supports. And I\'ll bet there aren\'t any spans of over 300 ft. where only a wood truss is used.   For a ship/barge the problem becomes worse. If you make the keel thick in an effort to reduce the hogging and snaking, you reduct the room available inside. Even at that, it would be impossible to eliminate all of the flexing and that flexing would spring the planks of the hull. There is no calking that has been devised that can fill an ever changing gap between planks.   And, of course, recourse to a miracle is the standard creationist answer when faced with evidence that their mythology isn\'t historic. "POOF! Goddidit!" And so, what is the point of the whole exercise in the first place? Why didn\'t God just POOF the ark into existance or just POOF anyone he didn\'t like out of existance? He wanted to teach the only just man in the world a lesson? Sure worked. First thing Noah did was to get drunk.'
+p8204
+aS'I see, we just keep on adding legs until they match. BTW, they walk on those "jumping" legs also. Why are they not refered to as "Walking/Jumping" legs.   However, if you feel you need to conqure another contradiction, here\'s a couple more.   How long did Jesus stay ressurected? Luke says one day, Acts says Forty days.   ------------------------------------------------   Using a literal reading and the Gospels, recreate a timeline of the crucifixion of Jesus.'
+p8205
+aS'Atheism is for cynical, self-righteous twits'
+p8206
+aS'So all the creatures you see today came about suddenly and fully formed?   And you observed this?   If this happened, the only one who couldobserve it is God.'
+p8207
+aS'Oh dear, deluded philisopher nutter alert. No one can empirically prove anything. Fact. End of discussion.'
+p8208
+aS"How about a sin tax of $100 dollars each time you log on and $10 dollars a word for each time you speak one?   It's fair because it would help pay for all the lying propaganda damage you do to society. Rights come with responsibilities.   On guns, no can do. SCOTUS has ruled many times that a right freely stated in the Constitution cannot be compelled to purchase a license nor a fee to exercise.   NEXT!"
+p8209
+aS"So montalban. Why don't you tell us about creationism. What is the theory? What is the evidence? What predictions can be made.   We can assume that since you haven't responded to previous requests that there is no theory and no evidence. It is only superstition based on childish mythology."
+p8210
+aS'But they consider the exact same thing inside a human that has yet to be implanted a pregnancy?   Double standards much?'
+p8211
+aS'You think its bad now? Watch what happens if Gov\'t takes control. I saw a great tagline the other day, it said "If the US get socialized medicine where will Canadians get healthcare?"   Anyone who doesn\'t like insurance premiums is free not to pay them, at least until the gov\'t takes over.   Happy New Year'
+p8212
+aS'And where exactly is your proof that "Stop, don\'t touch, leave the area, tell an adult" is indoctrination and translates to "go out and buy a gun, buy as many guns as possible, obsess over the gun, etc."'
+p8213
+aS'So the radiometric data stand: the Earth, moon, and older meteorites are all 4 or so billion years old, not just a few thousand.   Changing Decay Rates?   Another Creationist attempt to counter radiometric dates that are incompatible with their young-Earth religious position is to claim that decay rates are not constant, thereby throwing a monkey wrench into the calculations. There are at least two problems with this argument.   First, it is not at all clear how varying decay rates could result in multiple decay sequences all agreeing on the age of an object. Remember, for example, the oldest exposed rocks on earth, dated using different parent radioisotopes? All five of the decay sequences (Rb-Sr, Pb-Pb, U-Pb, Th-Pb, and Lu-Hf) clustered right around 3.7 billion years. If decay rates vary enough to throw off dates by billions of years, why would they vary in exactly the way needed to consistently produce the same results?   Second, radioactive decay of nuclei is not comparable to chemical reactions. In chemistry, the rate at which chemical reaction proceeds can be altered in a number of ways, such as by changing the temperature, acidity, pressure, or reactant concentrations. Such changes, however, have essentially no effect on nuclear decay. In fact, experimental attempts to alter decay rates have been made, but failed.'
+p8214
+aS"So biology didn't exist before the theory of evolution was formulated?"
+p8215
+aS'And it is heat that resets the clock. Thus it is volcanic rock and ash that can be dated most reliably.'
+p8216
+aS"you mean like partially pregnant or almost pregnant or almost a virgin?   I don't have a beef with God, I only pick on guys shorter or weaker than I."
+p8217
+aS"Actually the defending of ATF wouldn't do much with regular guns since they have little to do with them. ATFs function is with NFA guns, which you probably know little, or nothing about."
+p8218
+aS'Well is this serious science or is this ring-around-the-rosie on Sesame Street?   Am I just supposed to play make-believe and/or use my imagination? I can do that -- for instance, when I play with my kids, I\'m real good at playing the role of "Ken" when we imagine that "Barbie goes to the beach" Surely the fossil record shows gradualism or not.   I bought a book a while back at a half-price bookstore from Niles Eldredge. He says the following about gradualism:   ----------------------------------------   Change in this manner (gradualism) is just not found in the fossil record. pg. 48   Darwin invented the myth that species were not real to convince the world of the nonmyth that evolution had occured. pg. 52   Darwin\'s prediction that long-term evolutionary change should produce a systematic pattern of gradual, progressive change in the fossil record was faulty. pg. 53   As we have seen in the previous chapter, the usual conception casts evolution as a gradual, steady process of adaptive change. And we have already seen that the fossil record conflicts with that view. pg. 57   We\'re faced more with a great leap of faith -- that gradual, progressive, adaptive change underlies the general pattern of evolutionary change we see in the rocks -- than any hard evidence. pg. 57   ------------------------------------   I guess I would consider myself more of a PE guy than a gradualist simply because of what the fossils indicate. It seems to me that instead of evolving gradually that animals evolve quickly -- like the spiders on my shed. (do you find it odd that they emerged yellow in the spring?)   It seems butterflies have this same ability.....Evolution sure is amazing!   For instance, Monteiro said, the darker wing patterns that show up in butterflies that emerge in the spring serve to warm up the butterfly faster, whereas butterflies that emerge in the summer have lighter colors.   "Also, many butterflies that emerge in the wet season in the tropics have large, conspicuous marks on their wings that deflect the attacks of predators while the butterflies are actively finding mates and laying eggs, while the dry-season cohorts are very cryptic, trying to blend in with their environment and not attract any attention from predators until the rains arrive again," she said   http://unisci.com/stories/20021/0313021.htm'
+p8219
+aS'So when your God killed all of the helpless, little first borns in Egypt he too was another baby-killing liberal? You are very amusing and naive.'
+p8220
+aS'Then 99% of creationists are not informed as far as I can tell. It seems that your position is that "informed" creationists are neo-Darwinists, fully accepting of the theories of evolution.'
+p8221
+aS'This one certainly seems to be out of context, as reading a mere 2 verses farther yields the statement that "[Menahem] did what was evil in the sight of the Lord.   Are you then suggesting that what Menahem did was wrong? I would agree. And so, apparently, does God.'
+p8222
+aS'Color is a function of the wavelength of light. Thus, quantum considerations aside, there are a nigh infinite number of colors. Humans, of course, can only see a subset of those colors, ranging from about 400 to 700 nanometers. In particular, our eyes have cells "tuned" to three ranges of wavelengths; blue, red, and green. You could think of those as short, medium, and long wavelengths. By extrapolating from the relativity intensities from the particular cells we can "figure out" what wavelength is entering our eyes.   http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tut...perception.htm   Does this dispell your confusion?   Edit:   And just to address one other point, scientists are well aware of the limitations of the human eye. That\'s why, when exact determination of color is important, machines that can read precise wavelengths are used, rather than relying on the known to be limited instrument which is the human eye.'
+p8223
+aS'And I just spent all that money on a new camera. Pity.'
+p8224
+aS'And you think the British would do that?'
+p8225
+aS'Oh? And what is the specific amount of pot you have to smoke before you become a drug crazed fiend?'
+p8226
+aS"Well then. All of the ex-christians have it both ways don't they. Since they are saved they can lie, cheat, steal and have wild, illicit sex (following the example of several christian preachers)."
+p8227
+aS'You mean like a tapeworm? Should removing tapeworms be illegal too?'
+p8228
+aS'Yea, and so is gardening. Both are "murdering" living things. Both do not mentally exist. A strand of DNA is the only difference, which isn\'t very much.'
+p8229
+aS'Well as long as you ignore the evidence, why do you need proof. Blind faith works just fine.'
+p8230
+aS'Interesting sigline. Let?s explore it further.   So, if I?m a woman working in a high crime area of a city at night and carry a handgun for my protection because I?m only 5? tall and 100 pounds and couldn?t engage in hand-to-hand combat with a 250 pound assailant, I?m a coward?'
+p8231
+aS'Looks like you\'re not asking for objections to the conclusions and analysis this time around, like you were here. I guess it is wise only to argue on the grounds you know your opponent will find the most irritating or difficult.   At any R.A.T.E. (ha ha ha...), I\'ll repeat the objections raised on the old forum, which move to doubt the sufficiency of the empirical data:   From http://www.creationresearch.org/crsq...1_1/Helium.htm:   "Thus our new diffusion data support the main hypothesis of the RATE research initiative: that God drastically accelerated the decay rates of long half-life nuclei during the earth\'s recent past."   The empirical data is missing, Zero. The problem with the empirical data in support of the above statement, is that it does not exist.'
+p8232
+aS'Is this a rational statement? If so, prove it rationally, by science.'
+p8233
+aS"This should be in the science section, not the CvE section. Don't give SS any more reason to believe that the big bang is part of biology."
+p8234
+aS"Since I don't believe believe that everything had a common ancestor , a rock , I consider all ancient reptiles dinosaurs. If that is incorrect in your book so be it. We are not debating the definition of dinosaurs."
+p8235
+aS'Then argue with yourself. Why bother having others answer for themselves'
+p8236
+aS'Yes. What would a former Archbishop of Canterbury know about Christianity?'
+p8237
+aS"So the police can be there instantly if you have an intruder? They can respond before you even call them? Wow, you have some fast-responding police! That's fine if that's what you want. But I'd prefer take personal responsibility for myself and my family, thank you, rather than trust the police who may or may not be reliable, trustworthy, and likely won't be there fast enough to stop an attack before it happens."
+p8238
+aS"And I was correcting you. If you are offended then that's the breaks."
+p8239
+aS"Crammed with them, sure, why not? It's easy, only a few million light years. The scientific method is used in weather forecasting too."
+p8240
+aS'yes, we will send you to the camps and all of us will gather in our black robes and dance around a fire while we make you dig ditches.'
+p8241
+aS'and for you MIT stat loving freaks: http://web.mit.edu/~noto/Public/bk_v8.pdf'
+p8242
+aS'Yep when about 99.99% of a cows diet is grass...I guess we should be eating that instead.   It is hard to urinate in one corner of the toilet. If all ground that is being used for livestock is "wonderfully transformed" into grain production there will be many many wild species that will go extinct due to lack of uncultivated land.'
+p8243
+aS"Well, thank you for the riveting example of Poe's law in action.   Parody or actual argument? Only the poster knows for sure."
+p8244
+aS"Just helping something live doesn't affect evolution unless it affects the ability to reproduce viable offspring.   If there was no nylon before the 1940s and there is an organism that can survive by eating NOTHING else, what does that tell you? There could not have been a population of nylon-eating bacteria before 1940. This is a new population that did not exist before."
+p8245
+aS"That's so trite that it is meaningless."
+p8246
+aS"Come on, now. You're talking about a city where the dead vote in every election."
+p8247
+aS"We've answered these questions already over and over again and you'll get the same ones as well."
+p8248
+aS'What if a 13 year old girl comes up to you and asks for sex, and you agree? Are you forcing yourself on to her?'
+p8249
+aS"So you plan to move out of N.Y.in a year or two,and own a gun?why not now?N.Y.laws are sticker than most,but not all.You want to teach your kids to shoot?Better do it now,later on it will probably be harder.   Well if you don't think that gun control is the most important issue in the world and you totally agree that people should be able to own guns,but yet you have no problems with states making it mandatory for gun owners to have permits,thats almost a contradiction of terms for someone that says their pro gun.   I may be wrong but is anyone saying or implying total gun freedom?   What we are saying is, to many laws on it no more.   35-40 years ago we didn't have all this B.S.about it,you wanted a gun you went and got one (in other words very readily available)   Walk down the street with one and you didn't have a S.W.A.T.team on you.   We have seen to many gun rights taken so yeah every time a new policy or   amendment comes along we are antsy about it.   So if you support every amendment made to the constitution pertaining to guns, than I submit your not to interested in owning a gun.   And for the record:gun toting bandits(out here we say bandito's)are jumping   out of every ally{figuratively speaking}.But the pro-gunners know that if the   anti-gunners had their way,only the bandito's have guns."
+p8250
+aS'So what? How long did the idea of magical creation out of nothing in 6 days hold prevelance before somebody actually challenged it scientifically?'
+p8251
+aS'Well I suppose I could\'ve always put up a sign that said "Trespassers will be held with legal counsel, robbers will be shot, survivors will be shot again" but you\'re just welcoming trouble with that.'
+p8252
+aS"Well, that is the argument that one hears from creationists so often. So when are you going to get to the most delicious, highly satisfying entertainment? Even more important, when are you going to expose the theory of evolution? YOu don't seriously propose that your little series of cow pies is actually meaningful, do you?"
+p8253
+aS'Actually, that honour is reserved for the usual representations of those who advocate young earth creationism.'
+p8254
+aS"And that's why I think you are a troll. There really aren't any experts here. There are several who are knowledgable in a variety of topics, but that knowledge seems to me to be the result of being both educated and widely read. It also indicates an ability to reason and an open mind."
+p8255
+aS"And that is more likely than a magical being who poofed everything from nothing, don't you agree?"
+p8256
+aS'Actually, it makes sense only to you. If you look at nature for just a little while, you willl become aware of a great deal of death. But it is mostly very economical since scavengers make sure that there is minimal waste.'
+p8257
+aS'You mean like allowing for, and funding, comprehensive sex education, birth control, and parenthood planning? Those things alone would reduce the number of abortions significantly.   However, we live in a nation that would fire a Surgeon General for stating that masturbation is healthy. We live in a nation that believes that sex is only of the penis-vaginal penetration variety. We live in a nation where most pregnancy are unplanned. We\'re so busy "protecting\' our children, that we don\'t realize that the best protection is information.'
+p8258
+aS'You know what? You\'re starting to remind me an awful lot of reverend Jackson and reverend Phlaeger (the one who said they were going to kill anyone that didn\'t support their ideas of gun control). The claimed that a gun shop owner was intentionally violating the laws of Chicago and selling all kinds of weapons to gang members, simply by being one mile outside of the Chicago city limits.   Your entire argument is that since there are firearms dealers within a certain distance to the Mexico/America border, then they must obviously be outfitting the mexican drug cartels.   You\'ve hung yourself with this article you just posted, and I\'m gonna explain why. The ATF has said there are 6,700 licensed dealers along the border, meaning they know exactly where they are. So why exactly isn\'t the ATF going in there and breaking them up for their illegal activities? After all if close proximity is an unquestionable sign of guilt, then the ATF must know that these guys are equipping mexican drug cartels with fully automatic machine guns (the kinds that the American people can\'t ever get) and grenades and rocket launchers, and maybe even the odd nuclear warhead.   The ATF shut down Red\'s Trading Shop on matters as insignificant as typos. So why aren\'t they going in and shutting down these rogue dealers if they\'re doing anything wrong? It\'s illegal to own an automatic weapon of any sort without a federal tax stamp, and it\'s not possible for civilians to own post-\'86 model automatic weapons, so why isn\'t the ATF doing something about it if they\'re breaking the laws?   Seriously Aussie, what is it, is the ATF saying "We know they\'re breaking the laws, but they\'re not doing anything illegal we can bust them on"?'
+p8259
+aS"You're right it'll be fighting the war in Iraq. )Nah, really it'll be from social security, etc etc."
+p8260
+aS"Showing the RIDICULOUS nature of some gun laws! Even the Antis can't (or maybe won't) obey them! Ridiculous paperwork traps that even caught and surprised the Queen of gun control!   If they had arrested her, they would have gotten a Real criminal off the streets and NOW our society would have finally been safe! Ridiculous!   But it was a good thing for her, that Bloomburg and his Illegal Mayors weren't around when she broke America's gun laws!"
+p8261
+aS"How about this explanation - you're reading WAAAAAY too much into your precious Bible."
+p8262
+aS"So if Jitobear's mother had the option to abort Jitobear in utero, you want Jitobear to have the same option with any children she carries? That's awfully progressive of you."
+p8263
+aS"And why not? After all, Grimm's Fairy Tales is a wonderful read and who can deny the happiness Santa brings to 2nd graders? What's a bit more fantasy gonna hurt?"
+p8264
+aS"Actually he is, and he's posted on this thread.   It is a pity that you're unwilling to debate, but endeavour a smear campaign as you did on the Science and Math posts. I would advise you read the above quote before talking again"
+p8265
+aS"Actually, breeding horses and donkeys isn't an effort to create a new species. Where did you get such a thoughtless idea. And neither is interbreeding lions and tigers. However, you don't seem to be aware that neither ligers or tigons are sterile. They are capable of breeding with each other or with either of the parent species. And then there are polar bears and brown bears, which can and will interbreed if given the opportunity. And the offspring are perfectly fertile."
+p8266
+aS"well that won't help you when you go to hell...Woo hoo"
+p8267
+aS"Methinks that our friend supersport has been reading too much of the Animorphs book series (which was very popular among my two children) - I wouldn't put it past him to try to use something like that to produce the case."
+p8268
+aS"Really! Why not? I'm very interested."
+p8269
+aS'I take it you have no understanding of science, much less the scientific method?'
+p8270
+aS'I think you could teach gun-control at a gun-free school, too.   Sex-education is also taught in schools that forbid their pupils to couple on the school yard .'
+p8271
+aS"They're going after retailers selling ones that don't. Duh!"
+p8272
+aS'Again, as an ignorant layman, I can only get the gist of this material, but how anyone could possibly argue against the genetic code as a product of intelligent design is beyond me.'
+p8273
+aS'Gee the thimble wearing comic relief slides in.'
+p8274
+aS'I see you know nothing about the subject...hardly a surprise.'
+p8275
+aS"Ha, that is just an idiotic perspective. We'd have no laws (and many important ones) if you can't make a bill that doesn't affect you. Sorry Civil Rights legislation!"
+p8276
+aS'Minor quibble. Omnipotence merely means that a being is capable of all things. It states nothing about how awkward or difficult these things are. Making a galaxy may require some serious brainsweat, whilst making a person may not...   Anyway, besides that I agree with you!'
+p8277
+aS"So, evolution is falsified because Ford didn't draft chimps to work the assembly lines?   I've never seen such nonsense paraded about with such pride. I'd congratulate you on your win DamEtel, but I'm more impressed with your patience."
+p8278
+aS"Oh no, it's not too complex for us to understand. So please explain to we simpletons how Intelligent Design is nothing more than animism. But first, here is the truth regarding this newest perverse propaganda you are promoting."
+p8279
+aS"I thought you said that you had been following the converstaion. I guess you didn't understand any of it."
+p8280
+aS"Women's rights actually exist, unlike the Christian God."
+p8281
+aS'Way to go NRA,makes um look good ya know,kinda like they can give a little here and there.'
+p8282
+aS'http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/27/ma...27tools-t.html   In other words, a lot of these kids never grow up.   And then they get guns.   And, did I mention the hormone was testosterone?'
+p8283
+aS'and she would have been better by aborting the baby? That makes no sense. Instead of seeing your baby die naturally you would rather not look and kill it yourself. The same person died no matter how you look at it.'
+p8284
+aS"Don't get me wrong sleazyrider I love babies, they're delicious!"
+p8285
+aS'So your saying I have no right to disagree unless I can prove and refute evolution and science. Right, you can come back down to earth now. I can disagree with what I want to and no one an explanation, however that wasn\'t my intent.   [quote]You have the right to defend yourself, but when you resort to comments such as "get a life" to socialist, we start (or merely confirm our existing notions) that you no idea what you are talking about when you disagree with science and evolution.[quote/]   Oh you mean this comment from Socialist, "I am not considering your points anymore, so In a way I am. I just like making fun of them. It\'s entertaining".   It\'s funny how you forgot to include his comment. What scientific answer would you have me give?'
+p8286
+aS'You throw personal insults more than I do. So when will YOU grow up?'
+p8287
+aS"To me, your point would be easier to decipher if you made a long story short.   I'd rather read your point of view on the subject, without reading a mini -series of someone who wan't me to feel sorry for them.   Do people who choose to have an abortion expect a welcoming committee?"
+p8288
+aS'If our guns are mearly popguns as you just described them, then why do you want to take them from us so badly. Maybe you are considering a life of crime as a carrer, and your afraid of being shot, is that whats really going on here.'
+p8289
+aS"Oh what a shame! Especially if it's true! Where did you get the idea that ID theory is not based on evidence and/or testing?"
+p8290
+aS'Yes they sure will.... with what 776 accidental deaths last year due to guns as opposed to 3,402 accidental drownings seems like more should be spent on preventing drownings than guns. But if your intellect is not up to understanding hyperbole (literary form of exageration to express a point) I will try in the future to keep it down to your level.'
+p8291
+aS"Oh, I don't know. Grow food in a garden, gather it from various wild sources, hunt game animals in the forest."
+p8292
+aS"But I suppose the Pope is going to hell   Here is a link to a website that has a brief list of translational fossils, there are gaps but that could mean that we have yet to find those fossils, or we have found them but no one has made the link yet.   You also keep stating that evolution is theory, we all agree it is still a theory but it is the most plausible theory that fits the evidence found that Evolution is the most likely mechanism to explain that we have lots of different species, to condense it to the real basics just think of it as the ancestry of the species.(Apologies for condensing the Theory into those small sentences could be here forever explaining Evolution )   N.B Evolution does not mention how life started, there is another Scientific Theory on the Origin of life on Earth, but I can not think of it at this moment.   Hunter it is really not good form on a message board when debating a subject to say someone is going to hell because they don't agree with your viewpoint, present your evidence why you believe that evolution is incorrect and we can have a proper debate."
+p8293
+aS"Oh. Then you're just a dupe rather than being dishonest. Your information comes from a moonie. Funny that the Discovery Institute doesn't mention that. The fact that he decided to study biology with the express purpose of disproving evolution. So he had made up his mind that it was wrong before he undertook to find out what is was. Wells was encouraged by the Rev. Moon. He is known selective presentation of data."
+p8294
+aS'Really? So, university presidents and trustees -- the overwhelming majority of whom have no connection with evolution, and most of whom are considerably more politically conservative than university faculties -- are behind the whole thing? Wow.   You know, this sort of claim requires evidence. I would like see your evidence of university administration involvement. Got any?   And who are the "top" in the peer-review process? Editors? Please explain what you mean.'
+p8295
+aS"Most of the laws of the Peoples Republic of Kalifornia are aimed at rendering the citizens into prey. You can't point to many that don't. Self defense is not allowed there I am afraid."
+p8296
+aS'I think it is hilarious that you still think that in order to do a detailed study of evolution, you have to read 10 different books on it and take brainwashing classes from a university. Maybe you just like making yourself feel superior to me...who knows...'
+p8297
+aS'the cricket in the pliers feels pain...   When you start to squeeze a cricket with a pair of pliers, it starts to wiggle and tries to get away so as not to get crushed by the pliers. Is it because the cricket feels pain?'
+p8298
+aS'So, you are talking an incredibly expensive drug that MAY work 20% of the time when it is used.   Are they just letting these people die....giving them morphine for the pain and letting them waste away?   No'
+p8299
+aS"Translation: we let you work and we let you vote, even though you let us down ('This is because of imperfection ...'); so even though 'men are not without blame too', the Fall is mainly your fault, so accept your inferior status and PIPE DOWN!   Now, any guesses as to what organs thinking_person thinks with? Clue: they're not above his waist."
+p8300
+aS'You mean "No! sex" , \'til you want *response-ably* to nurture a baby. What novel ideas!'
+p8301
+aS'Yours.   ..........'
+p8302
+aS"I don't give a damn about the circumstances of the unborn either(obvious here I am not saying I don't care what happens to either, but for the sake of whether or not we should kill the unborn this is my stance). Neither one should have a right to kill the other...and for that matter, no one else should be allowed to come up and murder the women or the unborn. So my views are still treating them as equals.   and I will ask you to stay away from more assumtions that you can't prove."
+p8303
+aS'What a trite statement.'
+p8304
+aS'and a brain with no body kept on life support is only a brain...no person. If beg the question here. I deny that a level of intelligence is needed to deserve rights. I disagree that what you can do is a requirement..only what you are (that being a human).   Still, I quoted you as saying "a basic human fundamental right"...I am not sure what this right is or where it comes from or why it is fundamental or why it only applies to the humans you think it should apply to. Perhaps we should restrict it to only white folks again...after all, white folks are the only humans with white skin which makes them different from all other wildlife...right?'
+p8305
+aS'Have you lost your mind? I got no idea what you are talking about.'
+p8306
+aS'So Bush is responsible for the death of Third World mothers now?! Get real! There are billions of people on this planet, chose another vilian for a change.'
+p8307
+aS"Yes, amazing, how they weren't people before."
+p8308
+aS'So both daughters get daddy ******, shag him and get pregnant. And considering that God smites people for just about anything and everything in the Bible, he seems silently approving in this case.'
+p8309
+aS"Like, I said, I can't take men's position on abortion seriously b/c they can spout off all they want; however their viewpoint must be affected somewhat by the fact that they will never actually have to make the decision themselves.   As far as circumcision...um...who cares?  J/k. I really don't know what to think about that. Never given it alot of thought, as I've never had a penis, don't plan on growing one, and therefore I can't have a valid point of view. Do whatever feels best to you. Get my drift?   Hey, you two, Clerisian and Steeeve, quit arguing semantics. Geesh!"
+p8310
+aS'So where will you be moving to?'
+p8311
+aS'Oh God no. If there is anything more boring than twits talking, its twits'
+p8312
+aS"My pursuit of happiness is denied by trees existing. Let's burn them down and destroy the environment. It's much better than me being unhappy."
+p8313
+aS'Great idea. Explain why all the tests that prove it wrong are irrelevant.'
+p8314
+aS'Less than a playstation, of course!'
+p8315
+aS'Except that that would be the author\'s words, not a direct quote. Notice the absence of quotation marks? Special Agent Newell never said "17% came from the US". The author has as much trouble with the stats as you. 17% of the total have been traced to the US. We don\'t know the percentage of the total that did indeed come from the US but is untraced or untraceable. See the difference?'
+p8316
+aS'Yep it is easy. Lizards didn\'t evolve an avian lung.   This should be easy for the creationist:   The avian lung is far more efficient than the mammalian lung. Why didn\'t your god therefore fit the superior lung design to mammals, especially that apparent "special creation", us humans? Also please explain why he fitted a superior eye design to squid and octupuses than what he fitted to all vertibrates.   Once you have answered these two easy questions, I\'ve a few hundred more for you'
+p8317
+aS"Chalk it up to the fact that -- although not all the time -- a good part of the time, the same people are pretty anti-anything education. We shouldn't expect them to argue positions that make sense."
+p8318
+aS'Oh, I get it. So you believe, but you don\'t exactly "believe".'
+p8319
+aS'8. Gay marriage will encourage people to be gay, in the same way that hanging around tall people will make you tall.   This may be true because you cant chance your height...but let me tell you...   hanging around jack asses will make you a jack XXX'
+p8320
+aS"But what if it is unconstitutional, like Prop. 8?   No, it doesn't.   Are you saying homosexuals aren't American? Are you saying that more of gay's right should be stripped, including that of protest? How dare them fight for their own freedoms? I should lend you my time machine, and you should go tell this to Malcom X.   And you still haven't responded to my post."
+p8321
+aS'Many of the Christian denominations are ignoring them the same way they ignore the prohibitions against pork, mixed cloth, and stoning your children to death because they sass you.'
+p8322
+aS"Okay Yankee Fan. Keep pretending that it doesn't. Well, if you never read the article, you wouldn't be pretending as that would be an argument from position of ignorance."
+p8323
+aS"Well, as we can see from other recent posts, your reading comprehension is below high school level.   I don't get it. Why do folks think lying enhances their POV?"
+p8324
+aS"So, you're just an anti-geologist, anti-cosmologist, anti-archaeologist, anti-physicist, and probably a few more that I can't be arsed to think of right now. *shrugs* Might as well get it over with and just say you're an anti-science religious nutter."
+p8325
+aS"I'd love to see an explanation about how the study of the natural world disproves the existence of all Deities. Especially the Deistic Gods. And I'd love to see how science is suppose to disprove a being that is not bound by logic, reason or any laws. What science can do is disprove that God was directly responsible for this or that, the sun rising, the rain season, etc. Did you perhaps realize that many scientists are Buddhists because Buddhism which has beings that behave as Gods with such powers and exist partially within the natural and supernatural? Or are you again assuming all religions don't exist except for Christanity?"
+p8326
+aS'And YET! The good mayor has the time, money, and extra man power to go to other cities and look for crimes?   Heck. I have been to New York, and he has an awful lot of nerve going anywhere else looking for crimes to solve. And what criminal enterprises has the people of his good city people supplied other cities with. I mean besides the crimes his investigators committed. Drugs, thugs, and murderers to name a few.   Bloomberg, stay the heck where you belong!'
+p8327
+aS'So, in your scenario, Prototype, are you anti-choice folk going to force us who believe in choice, who believe that a woman owns her very own body, are you going to place us in re-education jails so that we, too, believe that a fertilized egg is a human being?'
+p8328
+aS'OH GOODY! Another meaningless quote.'
+p8329
+aS"Which wouldn't make a darn bit of difference - apart from the tiny matter of women dying and suffering permanent harm, but don't let that bother you. you'll also have to amend the constitution to remove any references to bodily autonomy. get ready to donate your kidney!"
+p8330
+aS'This brings up an interesting point, and that is that science is extremely limited. Using your logic, persons should not have believed in the fact that the earth is a round object floating in space before it was proven scientifically, even though it was a fact then, as it is now. This fact was written about in scripture long before science "proved" it, just as the description of the hydrological system was described in scripture long before scientists figured it out. THIS is where the evidence can be found for the validity of the Bible. When you find scripture after scripture of historical fact and scientific reference that is found to be accurate, you should tend to take is seriously. The problem with science is its arrogance. It\'s inability to see that truth can be found in other areas is a real handicap. Add to that theories like evolution that disguise themselves as science, and you have a real problem.   One does not stand on a train track with a train barreling down on them to "prove" they will die. This "fact" is usually taken to be reliable, even though that person hasn\'t "proven" it to be true through experimentation. If you need scientific proof for everything you believe, you have a real problem. If this were the case, no legal decision on guilt or innocence could be rendered in a court room, since the decision is usually rendered based on the preponderance of the evidence related to a crime that was commited in the past. We have the same problem with the origin of life and evolution of species - macro changes that supposedly occured in the past. As such, every availble form of investigation should be followed up on. This includes metaphysical possibilities. They can be investigated just as evolution is, buy the study of history, manuscripts, archeological methods and statistical and prophetic evidences. Both scientists and creationists are talking about investigation to find truth, and to self limit your investigative techniques is not only reckless, but might be a form of self delusion. Requiring truth to conform to your standards, as scientists of the past did, can either cause great delay in finding truth, or cause you to miss it entirely.'
+p8331
+aS'And of course, the theory of gravity isn\'t "physically" proven either. Neither is the heliocentric theory or atomic theory or the germ theory of disease. However, evolution has been observed to occur and the current theories are the best explanations that we have for the observations. As far as your mangling of the "Out of Africa" theory, it would be nice if you actually learned what you are talking about before you babble such nonsense.'
+p8332
+aS"Yes. It's part of this massive conspiracy. We're trying to thin out your population so we can take Australia for our own."
+p8333
+aS"He wasn't discussing abortion nor was He promoting it. He was declaring war on an unclean people whom He commanded the Jews to wipe out in a time of WAR. Again you rip an event out of context and attempt to imply God was endorsing abortion."
+p8334
+aS'Argh. Atheism is no belief in a god, "without belief in god". Why would you try to prove a negative? Did you wake up today and believe in a UNI because you couldn\'t prove it didn\'t exist?   Richbee has a long way to go to "prove" anything other than his fondness for rhetoric.   -Mach'
+p8335
+aS"So students don't deserve their constitutional rights?"
+p8336
+aS'Wrong. It was Soviet women. The USSR no longer exists. Unless you believe that those godless commies are just playing possum?'
+p8337
+aS"You jsut don't get it. You act like two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for lunch. You as a hetero get to go and get married to the person of your choice but I do not. What part of that do you not understand. You say this isn't personal and for you this is true but for me the man I love is nothing but a stranger to me in the eyes of the law. How cruel can you be"
+p8338
+aS'yeah ok buddy. Just because you can not figure out what those little numbers on the end of the things I have posted nor simply because you lack the mental fortitude to look back to some of my older posts or click and R*E*A*D the links to see that I have indeed provided ample backing does not mean that I haven\'t been doing MY job.   Now do you have anything of substance to add "Tim"?   "Futue te et ipsum caballum tuum"'
+p8339
+aS'what other forest? By your logic there would only be one left in the entire world, and it would be what, the size on central park?'
+p8340
+aS"So, if a baby is having trouble breathing that's been born already, you don't consider it a 'person'? Methinks you've not thought through the implications of your argument here at all."
+p8341
+aS'Yes that actually did happen. And knowing our nanny state government where anything that could cause harm is banned we have it banned.   BTW do any of you know of some great airsoft fields over in USA?'
+p8342
+aS'I think this post pretty much sums up the depths of your prejudice, and the thoroughness of your ignorance.   A child should endure physical abuse before being allowed to be adopted by a loving gay couple?   Being abused physically is preferential to being adopted by a loving gay couple?   I always have to chuckle when people are so eager to reveal their prejudices in such a way that demonstrates they are completely non-credible as any type of character witness...'
+p8343
+aS'Come back when you learn the difference between climate and weather.'
+p8344
+aS'Just so we\'re clear here, your idea of "proving your point" that I\'m dishonest is to call me dishonest.   Yeah, not quite how it works outside of Archie-land. Sorry.'
+p8345
+aS"Traitor? More like the boy wised up on the matter.   So, Brady, how's it feel to have all your work and hopes destroyed in the blink of an eye? How does it feel to know that your last best hope for a disarmed society has abandoned you by the side of the road, and you're now out of options and the only thing left to do is eat the crow?"
+p8346
+aS'Well that explains your anger.   I hope you are blessed with homeliness. Makes your commitment easier to keep. How old are you now?'
+p8347
+aS'Actually there is one other point of view. The "Don\'t Care What the Bible Says" one.'
+p8348
+aS"[quote=zsu2357;361463][quote=Penfold;361428]Wrong. It is a precision machine designed to kill effectively. It can be operated by other than human means.   Yes, you would be wrong.   No, they don't.   True, but nobody suggested there was such a grey area.   We accept your word.   I have never seen this, do you have examples?   So far as I am aware, nobody but you believes this to be the case.[/QUOT   ET phone home, fed-ex just delivered your case of 9mm shells lol."
+p8349
+aS'Well maybe that will teach him to get a education for once. Still, my analogy is quite true.   Furthermore both words are meant by creationists to argue evolution is faith. Dishonest, but that is essentialy the mantra of creationism.   "Lie, cheat, steal and fabricate to get people to be believe."'
+p8350
+aS'Oh well thats tough hat to victims of rape then.   Somehow I doubt this will survive legal challenges, assuming Gov.Rounds actually signs the Bill.'
+p8351
+aS'No, billsco, I\'ve never had an insight which would reveal the creationist mindset in the way you describe: I wouldn\'t mind seeing an occasional imp or two on my ceiling.   I\'ve also wondered (like Waxy) about the motives of the scientists who at first patiently, and then satirically, address the "arguments" of the religious enthusiasts who so desperately want to trash evolution. Are the resident biologists performing an altruistic service or just entertaining spectators like me ?'
+p8352
+aS'You mean like they are happy wile having sex?'
+p8353
+aS'And I suppose they are also responsible for the evolution of utterly insane mental cases such as yourself? And for electing GBII. And for Saddam Hussein. And for the drought in the South currently. And for cancer and AIDS. And heck why stop there why not for the Devil himself. All those sodomites must have become the original demons in hell I suppose.'
+p8354
+aS'2, A. Myth;   Complete fabrication.'
+p8355
+aS'What Would Jesus Carry?'
+p8356
+aS'Does this seem a little ironic to anyone else? Either becoming intoxicated is acceptable or it isn\'t, why does the method make one acceptable and practitioners of the other "losers"? For the record I don\'t drink, smoke or partake of illegal drugs.'
+p8357
+aS'My my, did someone get up on the wrong side of the bed or what, of course you realize that you just gave me the answer I was looking for, not that I didnt already know the answer, I just wanted you to say it. I dont believe I need a clue, so I will let you have it instead Brady.'
+p8358
+aS'Now, I could ask the same thing.'
+p8359
+aS"I believe we have a human responsibility to one another. That we are our brother's keeper. Tell me, Bassman, if there aren't enough jobs, and the costs of medical care are skyrocketing through the roof, what do you suggest your fellow Americans do? Just drop dead?"
+p8360
+aS'Except that it does nothing of the sort... But then, what can we expect from somebody citing a website trying to sell you liquid vitamin supplement...   Nevertheless, we look into the Pottenger\'s cats claim.   Here is a page called, "Lesson of the Pottenger\'s Cats Experiment: cats are not humans." Although it\'s a page aimed at explaining why this "experiment" is not applicable to humans, it exposes the other, erm, flaws in this experiment. The one striking me based on the wikipedia list of diets for the groups should be obvious to everyone: many of these cats were being deprived of protein. This page confirms and elaborates. In fact, its first point is that today\'s cats have no problem reproducing for several generations on today\'s cooked food. The difference is that good owners don\'t feed their pets deficient diets.   The real irony here is that this experiment -- were it reliable -- would be the antithesis of supersport\'s Lamarckism. In order for supersport to be supported, the cats being fed inadequate diets would re-develop those broken pathways for manufacturing essential amino acids. Obviously, they did not. The only thing we see here is the effect of poor (i.e. positively malnutritive) diet.   We can conclude that supersport\'s Morton\'s demon is pretty much in full control. There\'s no other explanation for somebody seeing this experiment and thinking it supports Lamarckism, or even counters evolutionary theory, even if he doesn\'t know the basics of experimentation and nutrition.'
+p8361
+aS'Because all scientists hate god. Again, this is a fact.'
+p8362
+aS'So you actually know enough, you can see the beginning and end of time, you know what is inside each and every individual on the planet so much so that you can say God is wrong to do any given act?   How is this possible oh great and mighty oz?'
+p8363
+aS'So can women can cure themselves? Is that what you mean? Or do you mean that once they forgive themselves they can move on to help other women do the same?   thanks in advance...'
+p8364
+aS'--------------------------------------------------------------------------   (Time.)'
+p8365
+aS"Well, both traffic in waste material. Many traps are present in each for them to function properly. And don't forget where biological evolution and plumbing both lead you--into a cesspool."
+p8366
+aS"So you agree that it's not necessary to have high capacity magazines because gun owners can reload quickly when defending themselves against a criminals. Good we can agree on at least one thing."
+p8367
+aS'Well all you have to do is tell us the minimum time during which it could happen by NDS theory and then how long it actually took and we can compare the numbers. Of course you will have to detail how you arrived at both sets of numbers. Enjoy'
+p8368
+aS"Actually, shootings happen because a person points a firearm at someone and pulls the trigger. This is illegal. You can't make it more illegal than it already is.   Shootings do not happen because of gun happy nuts running around. Nobody has ever been injured anywhere by any gun happy nut running around. Many have been injured by criminals who disobey the law.   As far as puncture wounds, do stabbings count?   Or, as it appears, are you only concerned with those caused by firearms?"
+p8369
+aS"And I didn't have to choose to be homosexual. It is a natural inclination. I chose not to hide or lie about who I am. However you are the one who seems to be under the delusion that being gay is a choice. Once again I ask you if it is just a choice then you choose to be gay this moment."
+p8370
+aS"So your biased reading of the Bible coupled with your personal flaws and your misunderstanding of science is the basis of your religiosity? Somehow I don't think that's something you'd really want to brag about..."
+p8371
+aS"Well lets speculate about how many possible explanations we could concoct if left to supposition. I'm talking about the only two explanations for the origins of life that have ever been entertained as viable empirically testable concepts in modern science."
+p8372
+aS"I think that I don't have quite enough Tobasco in my Bloody Mary."
+p8373
+aS'No, of course not. Instead, you call us "liberals" and then call liberals racist.'
+p8374
+aS'What can ya expect when they killed free speech in favor of hate speech tribunals? Diversity at work maybe?'
+p8375
+aS'http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/24/he...4hospital.html   But a fetus in the womb is far more important than the lives and health of these women.'
+p8376
+aS'So Starguy since you are obviously afraid of guns and won\'t go near, you don\'t have to worry about any"violent testosterone\'s" but if you want to be friendlier   well you know how to do it. OUCH.'
+p8377
+aS"Oh yeah and did i forget to mention. How in the world do you get off saying I'm a liar? by the time im twenty two i will have accomplished so much more than you have. You pedegouge/scholars mistake being intellectual with blending in with everyone else. Try and stand out from the croud next time."
+p8378
+aS'Well, you have proven yoruself to be a man with no brain, that is for sure.   The definition that was given was the one that scientists use, not the layperson.'
+p8379
+aS"It's kind of funny that they claim this happened, but can't get the woman to come out and say it?"
+p8380
+aS'So,are you saying that all anti-gunners are fearless???   If so,,I must laugh.'
+p8381
+aS'Well when the second amendment was written, "modern military weapons" were black powder rifles. Feel free to defend yourself with black powder rifles. In addition, what are the non-recreational benefits of guns. In other words, what would we lose by taking away automatic guns (since I know your manly self could never part with every weapon you own.)'
+p8382
+aS'Over the Internet that can be a particularly difficult call...'
+p8383
+aS'Oh really? Gun ownership allowed these "lunatics" as you call them, to become government dictators? If I owned 50 guns and 10,000 rounds of ammunition, you\'re saying I could run the government with an iron fist all by myself, just like that? Any random person can just appoint themselves God over the entire nation, without a single ounce of resistance just because they\'re armed?'
+p8384
+aS'Rather unsurprisingly, the U.S. constitution does not have any bearing on Australian law.'
+p8385
+aS"Wouldn't it be wonderful if women everywhere would not bleed to death after childbirth?"
+p8386
+aS'Neither are yours. *GEE* *gasp* *amazement* *realization*   thistownwilleat-'
+p8387
+aS'He or she is still subject to attracting a mate more effectively than other monkeys, as a step toward producing offspring more effectively via any number of mechanisms.'
+p8388
+aS'LOL! By that logic children entering a school with substandard English skills are just as much a threat to others as armed children entering a school with no training in firearms.'
+p8389
+aS'How would I fill in some of the gaps? Here was my sequence: something like unicellular life to multi-cellular life, random multi-cellular conglomerations to an amoeba, to a fish, to a dinosaur, to a mammal, to an ape, and finally to a man??'
+p8390
+aS'Archie, why should anyone even bother with you? You ask someone to explain polystrate fossils-three people do. You plug your ears and go "la-la-la, I can\'t hear you", then demand that someone explain polystrate fossils. Someone else posts 100 categories of evidence against a global flood, and you wave it away as "evo lies". Yet you demand we take your biased site at face value.   I swear, you get dumber by the minute.'
+p8391
+aS'Oh, right. And what would yours be? "We the humble people of the human species have decided to break away from Britan rule and form our own bubble community. No one has any rights whatsoever, and we restrict our citizens to living in bubbles because we cherish each life, from skin cells to bacteria to plants to embryos. In fact, we really have no purpose in life, we just life to not kill other lives.'
+p8392
+aS'HELLO!! THAT\'S WHY!! Then we see the standard dance of how innocent and objective science really is.   6) And the standard "theistic evolution" dance. Atheistic evolutionists can\'t get along without it! I wonder if Kenneth Miller will see the movie, and comment on it. I wonder if he\'d have refused to be a part of it.'
+p8393
+aS'Even the ones that are destined to go extinct without producing any "daughter" species? Apeart from that quibble though, you are right. But don\'t tell the creationsts; it\'ll only confuse them'
+p8394
+aS'But you debate with it?'
+p8395
+aS"Oh thats not politically kerect and secially wif the chosen one doing the world apology toure I don't see that going down.   Well lay a few on us sin baby. Give us the deal."
+p8396
+aS"Because none of these issues were raised in the Heller case!   What's the matter with people like you! Your statement is like claiming that the Supreme Court obviously thinks abortion is alright because they didn't address the issue during the Heller case."
+p8397
+aS'Millions of Athiests trying to make up for lost time'
+p8398
+aS'--------------------------------------------------------------------------   True,true,true.Iff God created man in his own image and i look like God then God must be in a lot of trouble.'
+p8399
+aS"Also, the world has ended and you are just in denial.   We don't need random assertions, so support your claims!"
+p8400
+aS"So, why don't you give it a try???"
+p8401
+aS'Nor does the fact that he was a Christian prove all Christianity is wrong.'
+p8402
+aS'http://www.thelizlibrary.org/liz/004.htm   Normal, frequent or expectable temporary side effects of pregnancy:   * exhaustion (weariness common from first weeks)   * altered appetite and senses of taste and smell   * nausea and vomiting (50% of women, first trimester)   * heartburn and indigestion   * constipation   * weight gain   =snip='
+p8403
+aS'I disagree, it depends on the nature of insult.   "You suck! What kind of a dumb name is \'Robbie\' anyway?" Hardly requires a stretching of the old grey matter. But the snappy one-liner and the witty retort, or just a carefully crafted insult all require a fair amount of intelligence and insight.   Flat out denial requires least thought. I.e. "you\'re wrong!", "you\'re wrong \'cos God says so!" "You\'re wrong \'cos Dawkins says so!'
+p8404
+aS'Not all threads need to be courttroom style debates. If you choose to aid in establishing a working consensus fine. If you want simply to rave and rant there are plenty of venues where you can do that. Your participation is welcome as long as you are a participant and are seriously trying to resolve the issue. Otherwise for heavens sake go do something else.'
+p8405
+aS'Oh, OK then.'
+p8406
+aS'Uranus. Is. A. Ball. Of. Gas. Genius.'
+p8407
+aS"Link me to one saying weed 'addiction' is worse than alcoholism please."
+p8408
+aS'So the Establishment Clause was included to promote atheism, eh?'
+p8409
+aS'Who is killing children?   Except for George Bush who has seen to the killing of thousands of children in Iraq.'
+p8410
+aS"How do you know if they WANT to believe in a deity? They simply don't."
+p8411
+aS'I think what he meant to say was, "I can see Finland from my basement."'
+p8412
+aS"And you have a right to cling to superstition and magic as true. But that doesn't make mythology true."
+p8413
+aS"So you still choose to believe that someone who's a victim of crime should be punished as if they committed the crime themselves?"
+p8414
+aS"Oh, it certainly is an issue. Martin Killias, a Swiss criminologist, did find a link between gun ownership and homicide in Switzerland. However, my point was to ask you if you would be willing to abide by such regulations. The law in Switzerland requires that military weapons kept in the home be unloaded and stored under lock and key.   I don't think Switzerland is a gun-nut utopia."
+p8415
+aS"Jesus was a retarded ancient hippie who walked passed people who were starving and dying, yet didn't help them. Jesus is a man who ignored his family and considered his disciples family instead. Jesus is a man who didn't come to preach peace, but use a sword.   Jesus is a man who didn't repudiate much of the Old Testament atrocities. Jesus is bad, and Jesus is GOd, therefore God is bad. I don't care what the biblical stoner said."
+p8416
+aS'Really?   If "nature" meant for all things to reproduce through heterosexual methods then maybe all other forms of reproduction would not exist, hmm. They would have been "eliminated" because heterosexuality is far superior. Think again. The majority of organisms on this planet reproduce using binary fission (bacteria dividing), asexual reproduction (there goes your "individual gratification argument), and zygotic reproduction. None of these things require sexes of any type.   Even animals that have "normal" sexual reproduction can reproduce using a process known as parthenogenesis, in which only a female is required to produce offspring (turkeys and lizards do this). If homosexuality isn\'t natural or is inferior, then why do we see examples of it in nature. The bonobo (closely related to the chimpanzee) exhibits heterosexual and homosexual activity in both genders in the wild, and the bonobo and humans share a very common ancestor.   Look, you can\'t say that one way of reproduction is "the standard" since it is clear that different species reproduce in a variety of ways. You also can\'t say that homosexuality is a disorder if you follow your previous logic that what is "natural" is valid. Also, you said that heterosexuality is superior because it has a "greater purpose". By implying that something has a purpose, you stray from the realm of Science by assuming a teleology. If you want to assume that things were given "purpose" by some higher being, that\'s fine, but you\'ll have to stick to religion to defend your argument. In science, it is impossible to assume a purpose. For example, what is the purpose of a river? To flow to the ocean? To carve a canyon? To carry sediment? You can say what something is good at doing, or what it does, but you cannot say what it was "made" for (purpose) without implying some grand design that can be easily provided by your local religion. As for hetero and homosexuality, it can be said that heterosexuals are better at producing offspring than homosexuals. Does that automatically make heterosexuality superior based on the arbitrary criterion of number of offspring produced? So in the eyes of a value system that believes that something is valued higher that creates more offspring or "life", heterosexuality would be superior. But in the eyes of science and reason, your argument doesn\'t hold water.'
+p8417
+aS'Not much of anything else either, it would seem.'
+p8418
+aS"No I can't marry them becasue some of them are married. Also none have intent to li ve within Mass."
+p8419
+aS'Darned Swiss gun laws!'
+p8420
+aS'And God lives in Heaven, with Jesus sitting on the right side of Him.'
+p8421
+aS"And you don't actually see the circulariey in your position? The Bible is inspired by god because the Bible says that it is inspired by god. What if I wrote a book in which I declared that the book was inspired by god? Good for you? I'll do it if you give me the word.   And what about the Book of Mormon? Takes your book and goes one better. Also inspired by god because it says that it is inspired by god."
+p8422
+aS'Go do a Google search and find out.   How many babies have you supported killing?'
+p8423
+aS'OMG Brady, he betrayed HIS PEOPLE? and I thought WE THE PEOPLE were his people.'
+p8424
+aS'Oddly enough, the Mass constitution reads:   Article XVII. The people have a right to keep and to bear arms for the common defence. And as, in time of peace, armies are dangerous to liberty, they ought not to be maintained without the consent of the legislature; and the military power shall always be held in an exact subordination to the civil authority, and be governed by it.   So apparently they came to their senses later.'
+p8425
+aS"Before you were claiming it was a slippery slope. Now you're claiming it's a strawman. Perhaps you don't understand what either term means."
+p8426
+aS"Oh yeah, generalizations are cool! Let's all jump on this bandwagon!   Black people bad, white people good.   Muslims bad, Christians good.   Fission bad, fusion good.   Geez."
+p8427
+aS'So you are not an American? You believe that your religion should be forced on everyone by the government? Is it OK if I am allowed to teach your children my religion?'
+p8428
+aS'My bad, Daewoo. How inconsiderate of me!'
+p8429
+aS'So now you are saying that the earth doesn\'t move? I get it. The earth used to be fixed at the center of the universe when those Bible verses were written but God changed it. Now it orbits the sun like the other planets.   Actually, the verse does say that grasshoppers have four legs. There is no mention of jumping legs. You supplied that because it is foolish to claim otherwise. That\'s what I mean when I say that you reject parts of the Bible that you see as foolish. When you have accepted the evidence that the Bible is in error (4 legs on a grasshopper, sun at center of solar system, rabbits chewing cud, an unmoving earth) you add elements that aren\'t in the Bible and declare it without error.   You "interpret" and then claim that you are reading it literally. Pick one and go with it. You seem to claim that you accept the Bible literally and then add whatever you feel is necessary to make it rational.'
+p8430
+aS'Mongoloid? Is this 1937?'
+p8431
+aS'In the thousands of scientific papers that present the thousands of bits of evidence that go to prove evolution beyond all sensible sane and reasonable doubt.'
+p8432
+aS'Oh damn it...and I was going to sell this joke and retire!'
+p8433
+aS'Milesian Race vs Anglo-Saxon race. They just happen to be Protestants and Catholics. Sorry, I should have known that would be over your head.'
+p8434
+aS"You know what is far worse than not executing murderers? Letting 'em sit around, watch tv, and eat pizza. ;\\   LEVIATHAN"
+p8435
+aS"It seems that the high priest of Global Warming is so unconcerned about its reality that In the past year, Gore's home burned through 213,210 kilowatt-hours (kWh) of electricity, enough to power 232 average American households for a month.   http://news.newsmax.com/?SKIDYNyQ-GW...mo_code=6539-1"
+p8436
+aS"Isn't it interesting that TQ is so hard up for a reason to attack me that he must himself use a fallacious position to do it from. Thanks TQ, for being so consistent in your dishonesty."
+p8437
+aS'Thanks for the complement on intelligence.'
+p8438
+aS"Oh? You worked on Bowling? When did the NRA and KKK ever burn a cross together? Hmmm? I can take a hint. Just something about that movie tells me Mike Moore is anti-gun.   Hey how about Chuck Hestons speech? Some how I got the impression he gave the speech in Denver? Did you? You know the 'from my dead hands speech'. Anyhow how did Chuck Heston get to wear TWO different suits from one speech?   Anyhow. If Mike Moore of Flint Michigan was behind that counter, would Mike Moore be alive? Survive with broken facial bones? Survive with internal injuries? Or overhelming beat his attacker that he survives unhurt and stopped his attacker?"
+p8439
+aS"Just as being anti-gun won't compensate for being born with a small brain."
+p8440
+aS'The guys who want guns in their homes to protect themselves from burglars or "just in case we need to pull off another revolution" call others full of fear and mistrust?'
+p8441
+aS"Current 'treatment' includes:   Use of a placebo   Laying on of hands   Prayer   Tossing salt over thy shoulder   Planting 3 kernels of rice in the ground under your home   Saying the Pledge of Allegience   And thanking the Obamasiah for a bountiful crop of beets.   Oh, and if you can locate the witch, have her confess to the crime of making you ill...and punished for doing so...you stand a better chance of living longer with said cancers."
+p8442
+aS'Ok...many many people have been killed in Africa because of the policies of the countries in the EU, South America, Asia, and so on....this hypocrisy annoys me.'
+p8443
+aS"Shh shhh it's ok mellow mellow mellow. Relax you have managed to go from legalizing gay marriage to a collapse of our legal system and the downfall of man's ability to reason and govern himself in two paragraphs.   Maybe gay people would like to enjoy some of the happiness you get from your marriage and same as you that happiness is worth the oppressiveness incurred as a result.   You may have more in common with gay people than you think."
+p8444
+aS'So it would be more loving to severely beat the child...forever?   "Hey Timmy, remember when you were 3 and you wrote on the wall with that crayon? *BAM* *SMACK*"'
+p8445
+aS"But that is a misunderstanding of what the big bang theory is. What it isn't is an explosion. I don't suppose you have actually studied any astrophysics or astronomy upon which you base your rejection of the big bang, have you?"
+p8446
+aS"Duh! You don't seem to have a grasp on what science is. Science isn't a search for truth. It is an attempt to explain observations naturalistic events without appeals to gods, angels, or demons."
+p8447
+aS"Yes. it's called global dimming, and yes, I trust mainstream scientific organizations.   If you knew anything about science, scientists usuallyspeak in terms of COULDS, possibliites, and likely, because science isn't 100% and scientific facts aren't absolute. THey are largely evidence-supported conjectures. You can't prove anything 100%. They are giving reasonable estimates. That's how climatology works."
+p8448
+aS"Because of course,... people with genetic malady's have no right to their lives anyway.   Right?"
+p8449
+aS"1) It's Habbit. You could at least take 5 seconds to get my name right.   2) Considering you and your friends are the ones complaining, not debating?   3) Actually, none of my posting privileges have my revoked. Try again."
+p8450
+aS"If we were to debate whether God made us perfect as he could have, then of course we can make the point that he obviously doesn't exist."
+p8451
+aS'**   The "methodology" of science is not materialism/mechanism/darwinism, but simply empiricism leading inductively/abductively to hypotheses regarding regularities in causation in nature that can be tested via the predictive experimentation of the scientific method. Neither empiricism or the epistemological process of the scientific method are the exclusive property of materialism/mechanism, nor did they originate from within that metaphysic, despite the beliefs of materialist/mechanists to that effect.   Unfortunately, some 150 years ago, that methodology was set aside, and has remained out of sight, with regard to the hypothesis that is generally referred to as \'darwinism\'.'
+p8452
+aS'Well said. It is a disgrace that the "Flat Earth" side of the argument never gets a look in geography lessons and that the "Spontaneous Creation" side of the argument never gets a look in when teaching kids about the life cycle of insects. Do you realise that they refuse to present the "Cheese" side of the argument when teaching about the moon these days? It\'s outrageous, how can our kids get a balanced education if such bias is allowed to continue!'
+p8453
+aS"Where'd Noah get Tasmanian tigers?"
+p8454
+aS"I see you still don't understand what a strawman is. It is hard to have a strawman when the comment wasn't directed at any particular claim...."
+p8455
+aS"Bingo. Old fossils can be corrupted (contaminated, to be precise) by contacting anything from human skin to pollen in the air. This would add a relatively large amount of carbon to the fossil and would indicate that the fossil is recent.   It's not hard to imagine this happening in the hands of inexperienced scientists... *cough* Creationists *cough*"
+p8456
+aS'Look at Hawaiian Honeycreepers. Willful ignorance is a way of life.   http://www.answers.com/topic/hawaiian-honeycreeper-1'
+p8457
+aS"So what does this have to do with the topic? Alcohol is legal, marijuana isn't, but they both serve the same purpose (getting high), so why should one be illegal and the other not?"
+p8458
+aS'You see, that\'s the problem: "generally". You obviously know little or nothing of how prejudice works in this country.'
+p8459
+aS'Because his, as a Christian, doesn\'t follow the Christian Bible to anywhere near the extent that mine does.   "Quote mine" - looks like that will be a common acusation here. If I keep things concise and readable, I\'m quote mining. That quote wasn\'t about atheists using evolutionary findings to support their concepts, it was about atheists being comfortable with theistic evolution, far more than "believers" (creationists)   And that didn\'t have a thing to do with my point.   Again, it was irrelevent to my point. Atheists believe the only source of truth is secular - it goes without saying.   No, Lewontin didn\'t say to give people the power to discover the truth, he\'s saying to give elites like him the authority to point them to "correct" sources of truth. Read note #47 for chapter 6. Miller didn\'t misinterpret him at all. In note #47, Lewontin even mentioned the NY Times!   Because there are no ACLU lawsuits when Dawkin\'s book is required reading in public schools. We have to more and more, as atheism is established.   It\'s a deal, if you\'ll put a hold on lecturing me about reading comprension as you ignore very relevant notes in the rear of the book.   The one where he bragged about defeating Henry Morris, a Christian? (pp 172, 173)   Sure they were, Christians are always opposing Christianity! All they have to do is claim to be a Christian, and there\'s no way they could be a false teacher!   And that\'s all irrelevent, because pages 240-243 concern what happens in the world today, not what happened concerning creation. His feelings about God\'s interactions with the world today would be different if he had a basic knowledge of the Bible.   Even though the Bible says God did. His understanding of the Bible is very undeveloped and limited.   So you\'re implying that when he made his snide little comment about "preachers", he wasn\'t referring to priests? I\'ve seen it all now.   As I said, I hope to learn if all theistic evolution does not believe in original sin. I\'d like to know if all Catholics believe the creation story is nothing but a fairy tale.'
+p8460
+aS"And what of when you go by some moral standard to determine what is right and wrong in other peoples' lives as well? What? you don't do that? Bull. You can't tell me you never have an opinion or judgment on anything anyone else does. But by your logic, that would be imposing on them.   Sorry, that dog just doesn't hunt. Everyone has some basis for the views they have about they way they think society would be best. There's no law that says people can't participate in that process with religion or anything else as their moral basis. 'Imposing religion' is not the same as using religion as a basis, and it's the fact that you are wrong on this that's why religious people are continually able to have religion as their basis of social change, just as equally as anything else."
+p8461
+aS"So, then you DO feel that what you did was a sin. Otherwise you wouldn't have asked forgiveness for it.   I have one question. What was your motivation for starting this thread? Was it to try and somehow prove that a person can be a Christian and have an abortion? Just curious. IMO, you are right that you are forgiven for it, as God is a forgiving and loving God. But I hope you don't do it again."
+p8462
+aS'Well, either the real or imaginary Phyllis implied those things in the post under discussion.'
+p8463
+aS"I believe the hunter who handed the rifle to the actor and the TV crew lacked an awareness of the firearm's potential danger, another police official said.   How is anyone to learn any potential of a firearm if it is to be locked away and not seen?   Besides that little piece about lacking awareness I don't really buy it.   A gun death is a gun death, whoever pulls the trigger?Serious question, Penfold,   and I will even dispense with the COMRADE,are you a plant just to get people going?or did you actually have someone close to you hurt or killed by a firearm?   and if so I apologize.'"
+p8464
+aS"That's the trick, isn't it? If its a threat. But since when is a fetus a threat? Sure, when the fetus is endangering the mother's life, fine. But 97% of the time, it's not.   Can a woman kill using her own body? Steal? Rape? No, of course not. I can't rape anyone and get away with it because I used my own body. Next time you get caught stealing, tell the judge that you were using your own body to do it, and you can do whatever you want with your own body. Enjoy the following laugh.   And prove to me that a fetus is not a living human. In fact, find ANYTHING that is made of cells and is or was not living."
+p8465
+aS'Really? Funny, my son, even before I "came out" didn\'t think gays were bad or being gay was bad. He saw hate as being the real evil...and you exemplify that just perfectly...brava!'
+p8466
+aS'Again Monty has shown that he doesn\'t bother to learn what he is talking about before he speaks. It is not true that science has "found" the mitochondrial Eve, nor is it true that it shows that one person can have all the DNA necessary for all the variation in human population. Both ideas are ridiculous in the extreme. The mitochondrial (note spelling monty) Eve is a mathematical concept. If the estimates of the mutation rate of mitochondrial DNA are correct, then she lived about 200,000 years ago or so.   And of course, the variation in human populations is carried by the nuclear DNA, not the mitochondria. High school biology students know this. And, of course, recent analysis has shown that every gene in the human genome has an average of 14 alleles. Since a single person can carry only two alleles of any gene, monty\'s assertion becomes pure nonsense.   Hank says:'
+p8467
+aS"And amusingly enough, you who claim you don't have any interest in changing the outcome spend soooo much time posting on these threads...   Perhaps that's another claim that's just false in your opinion?"
+p8468
+aS'And you can "lol" all you want. So tell me what it is about a brain that has not developed that requires more protection than a brain that is temporarily out of commission? And yes, we could very well debate potentials, but that is a different branch of the bigger picture and personally I don\'t see a reason to go down it, at least not at this point.'
+p8469
+aS'According to Montalban, he doesn&#8217;t use sarcasm and quite often bitterly complains when I use it. Opps, maybe he made a mistake and is trying to cover it up. LOL'
+p8470
+aS'Well nobody has turned up the Ark have they, termites could assure that if properly used. After 40 days and more they would be ravenous.'
+p8471
+aS"And you're accusing him of not debating properly? That's the best you can do?"
+p8472
+aS"60% accepting Roe v Wade is a high figure don't you think? More people support abortion then the president."
+p8473
+aS'And a good one at that. I can hear the wheels a-spinnin&#8217;'
+p8474
+aS'So how can evilutionists have any confidence in carbon dating if they keep updating the calibration curve? Huh?'
+p8475
+aS'Let me see if I have this right, Priscilla. You admit your ignorance of the topic and you refuse to read the linked article in order to learn the topic of the thread, and yet you are willing to offer an opinion.   As Mr. Jack said, interesting.'
+p8476
+aS'well that could happen if somhow you mutated into some..i dunno...600 armed person. ?'
+p8477
+aS'And how do you know what other animals can analyze? Is that another supreme abilities of us humans? To read the minds of animals?'
+p8478
+aS"So you deny that this man is a victim? Realize that the gunshot drew attention, and attention is something criminals don't want. Maybe without that gunshot, the guy would've been beaten to death. But I suppose you'd be happier, because at least the old man wasn't a gun owner. Or I suppose you think he should've let the criminal have the money; all that is needed for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."
+p8479
+aS'but you too are a figment of my imagination, and you only think you are a giant alien dreaming about this world because i imagined you as such. you cannot disprove this either.'
+p8480
+aS'But why? What is so important about an embryo that it can be given a "person" status?'
+p8481
+aS'Good. The less moronic "spirituality" in each state the better. Let\'s move out of the dark ages as fast as we can.'
+p8482
+aS"No, back to school... turn in what educational credntials you feel you have, and just stay at the coffeehouses... at least you have a .005% of hearing someone ineject some truth in one of those sidewalk tete a' tete's you nutters are so fond of... but here you are dead wrong. Have you ever heard of an egg? ever heard of a sperm? An egg is still considered a multiple cell organism, and a sperm as well. You're gonna have a hard time pulling that one off."
+p8483
+aS'Actually quite a common name in South America... but I know what you mean.'
+p8484
+aS"''No, actually the earth is 150 years old. FACT. And its age never changes. FACT.''   -Chris Formage, Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas."
+p8485
+aS'Actually what sank that debate was a bunch of paleontologists from K state who started arguing for punctuated equilibrium. That was pretty much the end. I remember one board member was quoted as saying "These are public schools. We are luck if we can teach the kids to read"'
+p8486
+aS'Since animals can operate them, gun owners obviously need sufficient training to make sure they are used safely. It seems they need a lot more. On the other hand, the problem is largely self-limiting, since the cretinous owner either dies or hopefully learns from their stupidity once they recover from their injuries.'
+p8487
+aS"Raw Data: Past Deadly U.S. Mass Shootings - Local News | News Articles | National News | US News - FOXNews.com   That's just the most egregious mass shooting in the good old US of A."
+p8488
+aS"Wow, make up your mind. Either populations change over time (evolve) or they don't.   Would your wingless beetles be able to produce wings again if they were somehow beneficial again? You are starting to sound like Darwin and his finches."
+p8489
+aS'Hey thanks for the "edited/out of context sermon." Peter was rebuked for interfering with the plans of God. Oh . . . Christ never said to throw the sword away. . . "put it away" means put it away in the sheath.   Mark 8: 31 And He began to teach them that it is necessary for the Son of man to suffer many things and to be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and to be killed, and after three days to rise again. 32 And He spoke the word openly. And taking Him aside, Peter began to rebuke Him. 33 But turning around and seeing His disciples, He rebuked Peter, saying, Go behind Me, Satan, because you do not mind the things of God, but the things of men. 34 And calling near the crowd with His disciples, He said to them, Whoever desires to come after Me, let him deny himself and take his cross, and let him follow Me. 35 For whoever desires to save his life, he shall lose it. But whoever shall lose his life for My sake and the gospel, that one shall save it. 36 For what shall it profit a man if he gain the whole world, yet damage his soul? 37 Or what shall a man give as an exchange for his soul? 38 For whoever may be ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father, along with the holy angels.   Matt 26: 47 And as He was yet speaking, behold, Judas came, one of the Twelve. And with him was a numerous crowd with swords and clubs, from the chief priests and elders of the people. 48 And the one betraying Him gave them a sign, saying, Whomever I may kiss, it is He; seize Him. 49 And coming up at once to Jesus, he said, Hail, Rabbi. And he ardently kissed Him. 50 But Jesus said to him, Friend, why are you here? Then coming up, they laid hands on Jesus and seized Him. 51 And, behold, one of those with Jesus, stretching out the hand, drew his sword and struck the slave of the high priest and took off his ear. 52 Then Jesus said to him, Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword shall perish by a sword. 53 Or do you think that I am not able now to call on My Father, and He will place beside Me more than twelve legions of angels? 54 How then should the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must happen this way?'
+p8490
+aS"78.4 years? Well excuse me but I intend to live much longer than that. I was thinking about 112.7 years. Yeah. That's about right."
+p8491
+aS'Oh? Since you are so inquisitive about my medical procedures, would you like the readout of my last yearly physical? My cholesterol levels? Whether or not my blood sugar content was high?'
+p8492
+aS'But maybe god does not hate gays, maybe he just hates the ones that demand to have sex with people whether they want it or not.'
+p8493
+aS'You made the claim. Another lie from the radical cheap seats!'
+p8494
+aS'Yeah, yeah we can all do math. Why do you even bother? You said statistics is just a game. -VOR   Take it seriously.'
+p8495
+aS'You\'re getting rusty NATO.   It was a college campus. Guns ARE banned where this happened.   Maybe simone can explain yet another instance of a shooting in a "gun free zone"?   How many of these shootings on "gun free" college campuses need to happen before we ever get a comment on how these bans are working so well?   I mean, after an average of once a week, you would think suggesting banning guns would be a laughable suggestion. Yet, after every shooting where guns are completely banned, there seems to be a suggestion that we need stricter gun control. How do you get tighter than 100% forbidden?   Anyone care to state the definition of insanity for posterity?'
+p8496
+aS"If you had bothered to spend more than two seconds actually looking up what happened, you would've seen that Joe Horn was cleared of all wrong doings by a grand jury, not on the grounds of the new Castle Doctrine of Texas, but the already existing laws that permits the use of deadly force for preventing property crimes. These laws were on the books for years before Texas officially adopted the NRA endorsed Castle Doctrine.   And even so, what're you complaining about? Would you rather Joe Horn be the one killed and the criminals alive today?"
+p8497
+aS'I think jyoshu has posted a BS meter which is pretty nice.'
+p8498
+aS'Quote from your appeal to authority:   !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!'
+p8499
+aS'And it isn\'t the job of the school to teach anyone about your god. That is the job of the parents. If it is a good idea to teach about your god in the public school, it is also a good idea to teach about mine. How about Wicca and Islam. A good idea, right?   But if some creationists don\'t like their children learning science, then they should put them in their own "christian" schools where they can become scientific illiterates who think that heliocentrism is a fact.'
+p8500
+aS'Try the ( Law of Common Sense) . If your an ex-atheist, you already know the ( Law of Relativity ).'
+p8501
+aS'you told me in an earlier post that the mother should die, even if they predict the fetus will kill the mother. your bible states otherwise.'
+p8502
+aS'So Simone, if the shooter had instead driven his Toyota Prius into a crowd, killing many as a result, would you call for banning Toyota Priuses?'
+p8503
+aS'Actually, they have. But only Leviticus and Numbers.'
+p8504
+aS"Atheists tend to ignore information they don't like also."
+p8505
+aS'Sometimes?   The state of the public education system in the US is downright criminally neglectful.'
+p8506
+aS'If you are open minded enough to consider an opposing point of view, Maybe one day you and I can debate those claims. But if you are a typical drive by post and run away "choicer?" I wouldn\'t be interested.   I digress!   The purpose of this thread (as I understand it) was for people to introduce themselves and say a little about their position. The purpose of this thread was not to debate our differences. I\'ll not respond to any more "baiting" of that sort in this thread. If you have questions about the details of my views, I will gladly answer those. As I may have some questions about yours.'
+p8507
+aS'Yes, the university one is quite possibly the most nonsensical. I will never understand why people seem to think that the mere presence of a weapon makes it somehow more likely that there is going to be a problem. I have lots and lots of guns, right here at my house. Last year, the murder rate at my house was 0. I think that we can most likely maintain the same this year.   What school are you at?'
+p8508
+aS'Way to make a controversial, unsupported assertion, Winston!'
+p8509
+aS"I see. Sounds too nebulous to stand up to scrutiny in the US. I'm guessing that the SCOTUS would strike down such as law as being too vague."
+p8510
+aS'Maybe what they\'re saying is "Grow some balls and practice civil disobedience by violating anti-Constitutional Laws that threaten your safety.'
+p8511
+aS'How extraordinary that Catholic theologians understand the Old Testament better than the folks who wrote it because they "have more books to understand that passage."   Yeah, there has been a lot of Catholic blather written to obfuscate the Bible.'
+p8512
+aS"So you think that, if murders were legal, there would still be the same number?   How about robberies, or rapes? There are plenty of those, the law can't be having any effect...   In short, I'm saying that making anything illegal reduces that thing. Criminalising murder results in less murder, criminalising drugs leads to reduced supply of drugs (compare any drug with nicotine, or alcohol), and criminalising guns would lead to a similar reduction."
+p8513
+aS'And creationism was investigated and explored completely and shown to be false.'
+p8514
+aS'All forms of life? Animal life? Plant life? The mold growing in your bathroom?'
+p8515
+aS'If a woman does not want to be pregnant, she can abstain from sex.   It works!'
+p8516
+aS'Chastity rather than promiscuity.'
+p8517
+aS'Oh, I dunno guys... I think I\'ve been saved.   *sings* "I\'ve been redeemed, by the blood of the lamb..." ummm... barbequed lamb.... rare... yumm....   I\'m wondering, Benjamin, if you would trade some photos of the Holy Pink Bunny for the shroud of Turin?'
+p8518
+aS'Abstinence until you are old enough to handle sexual relationships responsibly should most certainly be preached along with information about and access to birth control.   There are plenty of us who have no interest in the institution of marriage - your religion should not determine who amongst is a sexually active adult. Not to mention we have got to stop pushing the gotta get married have a partner to be a happy seccuesful person message - ESPECIALLY TO GIRLS - it will lead to sex, for heaven forbid they be SINGLE.'
+p8519
+aS"not bad for a procedure that doesn't exist."
+p8520
+aS"Well, let's see.   1 This is a skull from a modern human, the differences representing pathological deformities.   2 The dating is based on disputed methodology. Creation scientists have proved that radioisotope dating is unreliable.   3 The two pieces are only assumed to be from the same individual.   4 Where's the conclusive DNA evidence? (A nod to easyrider on the Religion board.)   5 These claims are made by scientists, and all science is an atheistic conspiracy against religion (thank you marc9000).   6 So where's the missing link between the new fossil and us? Huh? Huh?   Sadly, past experience suggests that creationists can wriggle on indefinitely."
+p8521
+aS"Wow, you PROVED the Big Bang to be a big dud? I didn't see this clear refutation of a longheld scientific theory written up in any of the peer reviewed scientific journals. I must have overlooked it. Can you give the reference to your article?"
+p8522
+aS'What in the name of heaven is "passive particulate selection" is that found in quantitative genetics in some obscure corner - I challenge you to produce a reference to the term in the open literature. And Mendel\'s theory was itself (if anything is) particulate in nature and it was NOT derived from Darwin at all. It preceded Darwin and later of course DID serve as a plug in addition to supplant Darwins own inadequate theory of inheritance. And of course Mendel is long ago supplanted by much more detailed and modern genetic knowledge.   As to "dynamic sytemic adaptation" I also suggest you need to document where that term originates from other than yourself. Just what does that mean which is NOT covered by the vary-select-inherit process? Please tell us oh mighty lagomorph how antibiotic resistance arises by "dynamic systemic adaptation" instead of plain old VSI processes and how you distinguish the two.   [QUOTEHave to go now.[/quote]   Good because my tolerance for people who pontificate in pseudoscientific terms while pretending to themselves that they know what they are talking about is wearing very very thin.'
+p8523
+aS'Apes are sentient...guess your theory is out the window. Either that or Apes need to be freed from the zoo.'
+p8524
+aS"And yet the species that exist today are the exact same as the species during the high oxygen content? That makes little sense. It's like saying the world was vastly different before yet perfectly suited for the species that exist today. That is COMPLETELY nonsensical.   Where did all of the oxygen go?"
+p8525
+aS'You are one crazy poster Steeeve. 62 posts in 2 days. You live on here or what? Well, anyway, I like your style so far, so keep up the good work.'
+p8526
+aS"I'm now slightly less confused about why I've never seen this discussed before."
+p8527
+aS'However, that would make supersport a comic genious.   Tough call.   Waxy'
+p8528
+aS'Said like a lazy, ignorant person who would rather live off the sweat of others than go out and earn for himself.'
+p8529
+aS"What, you mean like this story (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3136266.stm) of scientists warning about ocian acidity levels from 2003? Global warming is old news too: it doesn't seem to have reached the more remote parts of the world though, like North America for example."
+p8530
+aS'And thus the human condition is explained at last!'
+p8531
+aS'So you think Zeus and all the other Greek gods exist?'
+p8532
+aS'hmm. really, I think it is. and so does the pope.'
+p8533
+aS'attack on the definition of marriage?   Why is it an "attack" to include gay couples in as married?   Would it be an "attack" on something for blacks to not have to be segregated from whites?'
+p8534
+aS"I know! How dare they just not sit back and accept the discrimination they so rightly deserve. It's just incredible the amount physical and emotional damage you would undergo if these people are given the same kind of respect you are. We can't have that! This may be a a government for the people, and I am sorry but you are only part of the people and to be granted the respect of people if you screw and love the people that the majority say you have to screw and love. God bless er Buddha bless er Mohammed bless...er Rhiannon bless America!"
+p8535
+aS'Maybe they just drink too much coffee.   And you probably work with more "reefer heads" than you think.'
+p8536
+aS"And in those 150 years, all the evolutionists in the world haven't been able to falsify or debunk the book of Genesis. Of course, in their own deluded minds, they actually believe they have done just that."
+p8537
+aS'So you dont know?'
+p8538
+aS"Bob!!!! You're bad!!!!"
+p8539
+aS'So penfold and brady you are in favour of denying citizens rights even though they have not been proved to have commited any crime? Ed Kennerdy was on that list so should he be discriminated against even though he has commited NO crime? What is next putting black people on the list purely because of the colour of their skin?   You sicken me you two. Why on gods earth would terrorists be buying civilian guns when they could just use AK47? Did you sniff petrol as a youngster as you seem to have.'
+p8540
+aS'Innocent life? We have had some interesting debates here where Christians have yielded to evidence that the state executes innocents yet they still support the death penality.   As I recall, the woman who committed adultry was guilty and subject to death under the law (of Moses) yet Christ said one without sin should throw the stone. Are Christians that support the death penality without sin?   In-house debate? Whose house?   Dono'
+p8541
+aS"LOL. \xe2\x80\x9cBats haven't evolved in millions of years\xe2\x80\x9d"
+p8542
+aS'What is your theory about the foot fetish gene ?'
+p8543
+aS'The reality is that it\'s the ANTI-GAY side who too often include pretenses of "society imploding"...   Can you name me anybody who has asserted "society imploding" or "weight of legal quagmire" on the "gay pride movement" side?   Once again, you run away with pointless strawman arguments...'
+p8544
+aS'You know why. Because they want you to stop posting. Most of them want to rant, and they don\'t want their rants challanged. It\'s typical of the whole evolutionary community, I\'m afraid. Obvious_child and I are exploring this up in the "numbers" thread.'
+p8545
+aS'The Muslim invasion.   You guys need targets right?'
+p8546
+aS'Did you get another cracker polly?'
+p8547
+aS"So I can take this as a quote to use for you in the future to show you that (at one time) you didn't disagree with that argument?   Good to know!   It's bookmarked!"
+p8548
+aS'Doesn\'t matter if they "give it up" or not. They don\'t legally issue death certificates for abortions. Imagine that. Death certificates are ONLY issued to once living persons. OH WAIT!!! I think we just proved that a ZEF is not a "person"'
+p8549
+aS'So what are you trying to do here - smother everyone with bafflegab ?'
+p8550
+aS'Yes, it seems you never learn, so I have no hope of educating you, and absolutely no intention.   Since you ask nicely, the answer is "Supreme soveriegn authority", i.e. the fact that governments are established among men to secure their basic rights-- i.e. they not left to individual whims to respect or violate as each pleases, in the model of classic anarchy.   States are thus delegated by their People, with the power to to protect these rights through laws.   I believe we\'ve gone over this before; you didn\'t understand it then, I doubt you will now... or ever. It\'s still true, however: ignorance is never disproof.   If you form your own nation, you can name yourself the sovereign and construe the laws however you choose; however that\'s neither here nor there.'
+p8551
+aS'Some interesting information, that website where you got your link from, "Reasons To Believe" (RTB) is not a creationist organisation. It is run by compromising Christians, such as Dr Hugh Ross. Answers in Genesis have got quite a lot of information on him and as a result have even more rebuttals to his arguments. Here are several links:   http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/4149.asp   http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/4128.asp   I did notice, however, that the RIB article was written in the year 1999. This is most pecular, because the AiG article in which Dr Russell Humphreys defends himself is written in the year 2000. The following link is a very brief summary of how Dr Humphreys defended himself and his new Relativistic Cosmology from compromising Christians and evolutionists:   http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs...10-10-2000.asp   The following link is where Dr Russell Humphreys defends himself. It shows both the arguments and his rebuttals:   http://www.trueorigin.org/ca_rh_03.asp   I would strongly suggest that you read it.   I can definitely see how you may doubt Dr Humphreys new Cosmology, that was a pretty heavy attack, the much of it went zip, right over my head. But I just can\'t help but feel that they mis-interpreted several lines and are using some straw man attacks. I personally cannot see anything wrong with his arguments, although if there is, he has given way for a new area of cosmology, a Creationist Cosmology.   I hope that this helps clear up this little problem regarding "Starlight and Time". Got to go,   Matt.'
+p8552
+aS"You are on some different planet there. Science doesn't need one conclusion or the other. The traditional classification of neandertals has been Homo sapiens neanderthalensis, i.e., in the same species. Then genetic work suggested that neandertals were distinct enough to merit being a separate species [Hodges, S. B., 2000, Human Evolution: A start for population genomics. Nature (7 Dec. 2000): 408(6813):652-653.]. Results since then have been mixed. Some DNA work indicates a 5% admixture from Neandertals (Plagnol V, Wall JD, 2006, Possible ancestral structure in human populations. PLoS Genetics @ http://genetics.plosjournals.org/per...20105.eor&amp;ct=1 ). Various fossils continue to suggest some interbreeding. (Note also that a genetic finding of no interbreeding does not conflict with fossilized hybrids - it merely says that any hybrids or hybrid lines ended up dying out before they contributed to any lineages that were successful all the way to the present.)   A finding of 99.5 to 99.9% genetic similarity is what we expect, given the clear similarity of the two groups."
+p8553
+aS'Once one is adept at finding evidence after a conclusion is presumed, all sorts of "proofs" reveal themselves. What\'s next, Nostradamus?'
+p8554
+aS'Now you are being insulting. Evolution makes no statments about your god. For that matter, neither does cosmology, astronomy, chemistry, physics or geology.'
+p8555
+aS"Math is confusing too, doesn't mean we should get rid of it."
+p8556
+aS'joke ( P ) Pronunciation Key (jk)   n.   Something said or done to evoke laughter or amusement, especially an amusing story with a punch line.   A mischievous trick; a prank.   An amusing or ludicrous incident or situation.   Informal.   Something not to be taken seriously; a triviality: The accident was no joke.   An object of amusement or laughter; a laughingstock: His loud tie was the joke of the office.   Calm down, kid.'
+p8557
+aS"As far as I'm aware your aim is for abortion not to happen, my point is that despite making it illegal it will still happen -- making it illegal is not achieving your aim.   Hence my point is sound, and as such it is a good point."
+p8558
+aS"...? Either you've misread what I said, twisted what I said, or you're just stupid."
+p8559
+aS'Yep thats true.   There in separate buildings but right next to each other.   I see it being about as attractive as a crack house next to a school with a revolving door in front.'
+p8560
+aS'I believe my wording was "very rare". Please do not exaggerate my statements by mis-quoting me.   But as you have mentioned it, care to produce some figures on the frequency of partial birth abortions? Its just you have a habit of making over-inflated statements to support your arguements.'
+p8561
+aS'So which came first? The liquor or the egg?'
+p8562
+aS"You know, from the title, I was sure this would be about The hitchhikers guede to the galaxy' bible fish..."
+p8563
+aS"Well, that's because all those things happened during the Age of Law (the god of swift and harsh justice bit), whereas now we're in the Age of Grace (the god is all-forgiving bit), so . . . . er . . . hang on a minute."
+p8564
+aS"Homosexuals are attracted to adults of the same sex.   Pedophiles are attracted exclusively to children.   There are people, such as the case with these priests, who molest children, who are not pedophiles.   Molestation, like rape, isn't about sexual attraction. It is VIOLENCE. People don't molest or rape because they are so turned on they can't help themselves, they do it to HURT somebody.   Get some information before shooting off at the mouth VOR. Most of those priests were probably niether gay nor pedophiles. I HATE IT - when people spread this ****. It is FALSE information that does nothing but HARM. It puts blame on the innocent while the guilty get ignored and children get hurt.   Do not use this lie to justify your bigotry - for you do so at the cost of innocent people - adults and children."
+p8565
+aS"we should turn this entire forum into a mythical/religion vs mythical/religion origin debate.   let's see how well the creationists here do against Hindu, Norse, Egyptian, Zoroastrian, Manichean, Yezidi and the whole host of other religion's beliefs of origin."
+p8566
+aS'How is mythology relevant?'
+p8567
+aS'Actually not.'
+p8568
+aS"Oh, WW, come on now. If you say something to me about how Vitality works, and I say 'that's a stupid / simple-minded idea', are you seriously telling me you wouldn't take that as a personal attack?"
+p8569
+aS'How can they? If they exist in the mind and not on there own, then I can chose not do think about or believe in these laws (Bivalency, Involution, Idempotency,Identity, (Non-)Contradiction, Excluded Middle, Contraction, Commutatively, DeMorgan\'s, Associatively, Distributivity) and they stop existing? Or I could say, "hofflenosh" is a concept I think is stupid and does not exist, come to think of it, the law of excluded middle is a stupid concept so it does not exist either. If is existed only in the mined, it would not be absolute. It would be your opinion of the law of logic existing against someone that says they do not exist.'
+p8570
+aS'Yes, have you?'
+p8571
+aS'Say hello to my little friend! We the people, through our State Governments!'
+p8572
+aS'For bringing health care to women without the means ? For providing Pap Smears, Mammograms, and birth control for women without the means ? Providiing pre-natal, and post-natal care ? Oh, heck, let the women die of breast cancer and uterine cancer ! Why not; bash Gays, then you bash the women.'
+p8573
+aS'You are SO insulting.   "Oh, the poor dears have been through too much and are considering an action I disagree with so they must not be thinking clearly."   Who are you to say they aren\'t thinking clearly? I\'ll give it to you, Bassman. You are the most polite, best veiled misogynist I have ever encountered. You nearly had me fooled.'
+p8574
+aS'But will you listen?'
+p8575
+aS'I think the correct term is Priuseses'
+p8576
+aS"Hit that one right on the head, Symbiote. I'd like to hear supersport's response to this."
+p8577
+aS'And Hogwarts seems like a great school according to the first Harry Potter.'
+p8578
+aS'Well let me say that so far that you haven\'t been doing a very good job. My arguments are completely solid, and you haven\'t even gotten close to refuting them. You accuse me of being stupid because my mom watched star trek, you refute my arguments by providing the defonition of masturbation and periods, and then you call me illogical and tell me to think about my statements more deeply.   [quote]You said that you can only abort in the first and second trimester, which I already know. But saying that you don\'t exsist in these stages is a huge misstatement.[quote]   Let me rephrase that. The beginnings of my body existed. What you know as "me" the person who\'s saying this, did not exist. My brain, which is really "me" did not exist.'
+p8579
+aS"Just when you think WW's debating skills can't get any worse..."
+p8580
+aS'So you yourself could have gone gay but chose to be attracted to women?'
+p8581
+aS"Oh yes, Mr Behe makes a comfortable living out of selling to the ignorant. His newest book is just a rehash of his old book, and has the very same flaws that have been destroyed over and over again. As for your 'religious authors' being respected.. they are respected perhaps by the fundamentalists that do not understand what science is about."
+p8582
+aS'And the comments section is usually where the real comedy lies.'
+p8583
+aS"So you'd ask on these issues even if you didn't know if they had signed it?"
+p8584
+aS'Well I guess you apparently trust the political bunch and rich and famous.'
+p8585
+aS'Do you want them all dead?'
+p8586
+aS"You know what?   You're officially too clueless to post on this thread.   You obviously haven't bothered yourself to figure out what's going on, so I'm going to kindly ask that you leave until you figure out what is going on.   As I escort you out the door (metaphorically), let me just repeat something for you that was in the FIRST SENTENCE of the article that you obviously couldn't be bothered to read...   I'll even make it nice and big so maybe it will help with your reading comprehension!   collect detailed data about each abortion performed --   and post it all on a public Web site.   Feel free to rejoin us when you figure out what's going on."
+p8587
+aS'end where? ambiguously phrased.   if "here"="death", then yes! by definition, yes!'
+p8588
+aS'Oh! I get it! abortion is fun, it is only a traumatic experience (to kill your unborn son/daughter) for "unbalanced" women'
+p8589
+aS'Which demonstrates your failure to see the big picture.'
+p8590
+aS'why are you afraid of guns? has one jumped up and shot at you? you should never fear a gun, respect the gun.'
+p8591
+aS"While it may be true that an ovum is formed during the mother's fetal stage, an ovum is not a unique human entity in and of itself. It does not become a unique human entity until it is fertilized at conception.   (Do you like semantics games?)"
+p8592
+aS'Translation; "Do what I say or I will kick your @ss." Sounds a lot like the mafia. And you love this diety?'
+p8593
+aS'BECAUSE I SAID SO!   LOL,... I\'m so silly.   I just had to post it.   Seriously, I decided that I will actually construct my summary online, Iangb.   If you (or anyone else) cares to, you will be able to watch as I edit and construct my argument. It may be lengthy so keep it in mind that if I have to divide it up, and you post in the interim, I will have to delete this first half and move it to the end.   By the way,... other than working some things out in my head,... I don\'t have anything prepared to post. This will be a work in progress.   ... this will take quite a while. (Maybe days)   I see you are watching, and don\'t want you thinking this will be developing quickly.   I will let you know when I\'ve concluded.   --Chuz   *** Note to Ian. In my attempt to compile my \'summary\' I have realized that I never actually completed my arguments. It\'s kind of hard to summarize that which hasn\'t already been presented. So, my sumarization if you will- will now consists of two parts. First my arguments and then my summary.   WORK IN PROGRESS; The Argument   BIOLOGICALLY SPEAKING, A HUMAN INDIVIDUAL\'S LIFE BEGINS AT CONCEPTION   Definitions;   A Begin Being Biologically Child Conception Egg Embryo Fetus Gamete Human Individual Life MetamorphosisOrganism Sperm Zygote-DICTIONARY.COM   A Begin Being Biologically Child Conception Egg Embryo Fetus Gamete Human Individual Life Metamorphosis Organism Sperm Zygote-- FREE DICTIONARY.COM   Child Due Process Clause Person --FINDLAW.COM   Links   Logic   A distinct Human organism   American College of Pediatricians   The Human Organism   When does a human individual\'s life begin   The Physiology of Aging   Human Growth and Aging   Wikipedia; LIFE   When Does Life Begin?   QUOTES;   SPERM; "During fertilization, the nucleus of a sperm fuses with the nucleus of the much larger egg cell (the female reproductive cell) to form a new organism".-The American Heritage\xc2\xae Science Dictionary   Barack Hussein Obama; "We need fathers to recognize their responsibility doesn&#8217;t just end at conception."   William Jefferson Clinton- "If two cells join in the process that begins to make a human being, are they living? Answer? No one disputes that. " and "When does the soul enter the body so that to terminate the living organism amounts to killing a person? That is the question."'
+p8594
+aS'Thank you for your criticism. :D'
+p8595
+aS'And of course, the sea of Montalban\'s assertions as science, the sea of Montalban\'s out of context quotes, or the sea of Montalban\'s misrepresentations of what others have said. It seems that Montalban knows the "TROOTH" and won\'t be discouraged with facts. Sadly, Montalban knows what he believes and reality seems to be irrelevant.'
+p8596
+aS"What difference does it make? Do you only care about frequent killings and choose to ignore isolated incidents? If so doesn't that mean that innocent people dying only interests you when it's in large enough numbers that you can try and exploit them for your own selfish agendas?"
+p8597
+aS"Actually, they didn't. The whole tragedy was caused by gun control. If even one student was packing when that occured, 33 lives could have been saved. But no, more victims of botched laws and corrupt politicians."
+p8598
+aS'You didn\'t bother to read the link, I see, which said:   "During the 70-year Babylonian captivity, from 606-537 B.C., the southern kingdom of Israel, Judah, had lost it\'s national sovereignty, but retained it\'s tribal staff or national identity.2 It is very significant that in the book of Ezra we read that during the 70-year Babylonian captivity the Jews still retained their own lawgivers or judges.3 The Jews maintained their identity and judicial authority over their own people even during 70 years of slavery. The scepter had not been lost during the Babylonian captivity."'
+p8599
+aS"What are you afraid of, Trebor?? The whole world wants to know why you keep avoiding this question:   According to your own Jewish Tanakh, is God the Creator of the heavens and earth, and man?   Will he give a pertinent answer or evade it again?? I'm betting he won't answer the question."
+p8600
+aS'And...?'
+p8601
+aS"Given your very poor English (spelling, punctuation and basic sentence structure), I think the assumption that anyone can understand 'exactly what you are saying' is a very poor one.   Smiley   PS I have highlighted some of the errors in latest attempt."
+p8602
+aS'FDR saved this country? If I recall, it was in 1933 that, because of a combination of weakened capital situations from Reconstruction Finance Corporation loans which published lists of the loan takers, and a nation-wide banking holiday, banks around the country went through a new wave of demise, dropping the D/C and D/R ratios so sharply that, in one month alone, the money stock (M2) fell a whopping 4 1/2%.   Wasnt it under FDR that the NIRA codes, and, after 1935, the NLRA, enacted minimum wages, driving up nominal wages and thus unemployment?   Wasnt it during FDR administration that the reserve ratio was *doubled*, sending us back into another recession starting 1937?   The only thing FDR "saved" was the depression for a couple more years.   -GFA'
+p8603
+aS'And you don\'t have any picture. You have no idea of what recessive really means, do you. Actually, since the first observation of a black peppered moth in 1848, several other mutations have caused other variations of color in peppered moths. They are intermediate between the typica and the carbonaria, but they are extremely rare. These alleles form a hierarchy of dominence in which the carbonaria is the full dominant, and the typica is fully recessive.   Please define "kind." Please define "variation." Please explain the origin of this "variation in kind."'
+p8604
+aS"Gun Control is not on this list of crime contributing factors. However banning guns would leave the law-abiding defenseless in the face of these criminal predators. Why don't you work for changing these conditions instead of working for something that has no effect on reducing crime (gun control).   However, if you think you can prove gun control will work as crime control, then go for it! Maybe you can cower us with your overwhelming evidence."
+p8605
+aS"If this is your stance, then it's your job to prove it correct. Show us that Britain is just fine, show us that the criminals aren't awarded more protection than their victims.   Show us thimble head. Show us or shut up."
+p8606
+aS"So you don't believe that life had an origin! WOW so you think its always been present on the Earth? Not even the bible goes that far! And you fail to account for the observation that there IS life."
+p8607
+aS"When's the last time you heard of someone being killed by the accidental discharge of a fire extinguisher? Or when the last time a fire extinguisher was stolen from a home and then used in the commission of a crime? And don't you think the likelihood of being in a car accident is greater than that of being required to shoot someone?"
+p8608
+aS"What does spelling have to do with your own opinion? Again this isn't just about you although I think you did resort to correcting someone's spelling and just didn't answer the question. This has nothing to do with being entitled to your own opinion. It is equally bad for anyone to resort to personal attacks on either side of the debate."
+p8609
+aS'hey, watch yourself.........watch it..'
+p8610
+aS'You should refrain from calling others arrogant Mr. Kettle.'
+p8611
+aS'So if you quoted Ted Kennedy when he said to his wife in an event that wasn\'t even publicized "Good morning, sweetie", that would be an answer?'
+p8612
+aS'Yep, suppressing natural behavior is always the way to go. We should also get them to stop pooping.'
+p8613
+aS'Blah, blah. So you looked something up. Adds nothing.'
+p8614
+aS'After reading that I had to go talk to Ralph on the big white telephone.'
+p8615
+aS"Ladling out the guilt again, Maximus?   Don't forget take a large helping for yourself."
+p8616
+aS'I think if that happened, Texas probably will go back to being the lone star state.'
+p8617
+aS'I note that you consider yourself irrational, though I could not possibly comment. There are times that I am grateful that your parents chose to live on the wrong side of the Atlantic, but then I allow for your need to identify with your adopted home and reject the motherland.   You flatter yourself in assuming that you were any part of my considerations when choosing to post. The button reference is a play on words known as a pun.'
+p8618
+aS'Well Im not hunting animals'
+p8619
+aS'Actually, no, they do NOT. The first three ALL describe God causing them - are you saying the bible is describing God\'s actions negatively? Or are you saying that killing your precious foetuses is just fine as long as the persons carrying them are "wicked". Sorry, but you need to get an argument, Phyllis.   +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++   Spelling and grammar for this post has been checked and cleared   +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++'
+p8620
+aS'Yes, and since some might not, it should not be mentioned at all?   Personally I only know a half dozen people who have had abortions (at least that I know if). 1 of them doesn\'t care, she has had 6 or 8 abortions...pretty much used them instead of the pill. 2 are pro life zealots now and feel terrible about the fact they had aboortions. 2 are pro life, but not zealots. The final one was overwhelming pro choice prior to her abortion. Attended rallies and everything. SHE felt so bad about havinghte abortion afterwards that 6 months later she blew her head off. She could not get it out of her head that she had killed a baby. She became totally obsessed and finally cracked.   So, yea...maybe it is not so out of line for people, including men, to say "Think about it real hard because a lot of people regret it". You don\'t have to get shot to know it hurts.'
+p8621
+aS"It is impossible to read something that can't be found."
+p8622
+aS"I think he's referring to intelligent, educated people with a good sense of humour (good looking too ) who aren't paranoid beyond reason, can spell correctly and know what real beer is.   Smiley"
+p8623
+aS'I think you and my ten year old could really connect.   Happy Easter, Jim. You really are one of my favorite conservatives.'
+p8624
+aS"And don't forget the part that we're all hot for her, too."
+p8625
+aS'Translation: "Shut up, I\'m right!"'
+p8626
+aS'How the hell can you narrow it down to three? The competition in the entire top ten is fierce.'
+p8627
+aS'Oh what a corageous maverick you are.'
+p8628
+aS"Because it works. How much money is pumped into microchip design and production? IBM engineers must be so corrupt; the temptation to lie about quantum theory so they can pretend to offer faster processors must be overwhelming! And don't get me started on the evolutionary algorithms they use - clear evidence of atheist bias and lying. As if evolution could design better microchips!   Research based on evolutionary theory is well funded because there's massive potential for return on investment. Who funds ICR? If you're so keen to follow the money, at least do it consistently."
+p8629
+aS"Yes, socialist. Check the definition. I don't watch Fox. Is that the best you can do?"
+p8630
+aS"I believe that this is what they call 'sarcasm'.   As for the second part of your comment, why am I not surprised?"
+p8631
+aS'So doing a detailed study of something requires that one takes a class for it in a university and reads books papers written on it by "real scientists"? Wow, I never knew that. Thanx for enlightening me.'
+p8632
+aS'You could learn a lot from this quote.'
+p8633
+aS'So taking away all their guns would have been better? The ruling party was certainly well armed how about the other parties?'
+p8634
+aS'My first line of defense for up to 300 yards is an M4 (specops m16) flattop with an ACOG scope and tritium backup sights, 14.5 barrel with a 1/7 twist with mccluek (sp) muzzle brake to make it the legal 16 inches. foward pistol grip and a surefire light mounted to my knights RASII. I keep 45 grains in the clips so they frange and not penatrate walls. I keep a second clip with 77gr noslers in a mag-cinched clip for longer range shots. I use a long range Shephered scope on my .308 chambered m14 for shotting zombies out to 1000 yards. And to compliment my defensive ability I keep a romanian AK in my bugout bag with a surefire light and an OKO red dot scope for quick egress when reliability is of most importance and close range firefight is likley. (this in not to mention the plethora of pistoles and handguns I keep for home defense also). THe m4 is 1.5 MOA, The M14 (m1a) is sub MOA, and the AK is a typical 3-4moa. BTW. I have had military and civilian training in all of these weapons   I also keep a well trained Caucasian Mountain dog roaming the house at night so if anyone where to make it inside I doubt there would be anything left of him by the time I got there...   Preparedness my friends...   Now VoR probably keeps his Rechargable phone next to his bed and a whistle around his wifes neck and a fancy pug roaming the house...   Dear Mr. Criminal,   Which house would you like to break into.   SIncerely,   1 constitutional rights violator and 1 law abiding citizen.'
+p8635
+aS"So all jellyfish die on the beach?   Hardly.   Let's use this same type of logic though.   A jellyfish is pretty fragile, as you pointed out.   Wouldn't a jellyfish that was very rapidly covered in sediment be broken into many pieces, if not ground to a paste?   Wouldn't this entirely rule out the possibilty of preservation in this manner?"
+p8636
+aS"Way to miss the entire point, Clerisian.   My point was that is it a horrible experience for many women, and that I wish we could strive towards a society where abortions were no longer needed. Wishful thinking by a midtwenties female who just went through the most horrifying experience of her life, forgive me if I didn't clarify well enough.   I can't imagine that anyone would disagree with that."
+p8637
+aS'OH FREE MARKET???? IM goin to take the embryos and fetuses slain in abortion centers and turn it into a new food source and sell it at the grocery store!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!'
+p8638
+aS'And I would appreciate your refraining from calling your mythology a theory.'
+p8639
+aS'Utter XXXX. Doctors will regularly provide advice on lifestyle changes to those at risk of a variety of diseases and conditions, contact information as to where they can find support in making those lifestyle changes, and if appropriate refer them to psychologists to assist them in making those changes. Dentists will give long lectures on the evils of eating sugar and suggest appropriate snack replacements for sugary foods.   What else does "walking the walk" entail? Should the "medical establishment" follow their patients around and forcibly prevent them from having a lifestyle they believe to be harmful?   Then why aren\'t doctors who advise rest and plenty of fluids for a cold in jail? Oh right, because you\'re lying, as usual.   Doctors ARE schooled in nutrition, however inadequately, this doesn\'t mean they\'re going to recommend crackpot "raw food" dietary schemes to prevent destructive "lamarckian evolution" on the basis of a single flawed experiment on cats.'
+p8640
+aS"Oh dear. Have you ever looked at a human spine? It is curved: it's bent. A straight spine is a knackered spine. As to the hands bit, what are you on about? You are aware I hope that the story that the nosey elephant got it's trunk because a crocodile grabbed the end and stretched it is just a story?"
+p8641
+aS'What quaint illogic. Only people who marry can get divorced, so a reduction in people marrying has no effect on rising divorce rates. If anything, a rising divorce rate among fewer marriages points to an even higher divorce rate than "normal".'
+p8642
+aS'by this stupidity a KKK mob with guns is a militia!'
+p8643
+aS'On the contrary, the wet dreams of those slavering over these appalling British figures miss the fact that bad as they are, those 3 or 4 more murders in the USA per hundred thousand population equates to your likelihood of being murdered there as at least ten times higher than in that dangerous place Britain. Suck on that.'
+p8644
+aS"So that's a problem of \xe2\x80\x9cfundamentalism\xe2\x80\x9d, and not a problem with the one creating the \xe2\x80\x9cparody\xe2\x80\x9d? Apparently the creation of parodies for \xe2\x80\x9cfundamentalism\xe2\x80\x9d is a large part of atheism."
+p8645
+aS"So? Life is cheap. You can't change that, the least you can do is profit from it. And people call me a leftist! That's a hardcore capitalist view."
+p8646
+aS'Just to add more fuel on the fire :P'
+p8647
+aS'Can you read? You linked to a site that is essentially a bibliography. The title is "Feminism AND Science." Did you intend to mislead?'
+p8648
+aS'He was probably an XXXXX to begin with then.'
+p8649
+aS'God talk about a bunch of foo foo poop!   What are you a girl?   Any way honey, dont you think that net result was a lot of people who for one reason or another could not resist there biological programming will get AIDS because they were told not to have sex in place of getting condoms?   I cant believe I had to explain that to you.'
+p8650
+aS'No. Perhaps some effort into educating yourself would be appropriate. I presume that you expected a yes answer and your next question would have been, "why are there still monkeys/apes?"   I sincerely request that you look at all of the skulls in the following two pictures. Please give me your opinion as to what each of these may be and how they came about. Please be aware that "GAWD DID IT" is laughable. I am aware that you are usually free from thought, but please make an exception and think about your answers.   http://home.houston.rr.com/bybayouu/skulls.html   http://home.houston.rr.com/bybayouu/skulls2.html'
+p8651
+aS"Cars don't breed. Or didn't you know that?"
+p8652
+aS'Since when? So if I were to post a news article where someone says that pedophilia should be legalized, then it means I agree with them? I thought this was a discussion board. That means we, you know, DISCUSS THINGS.   Now, if I had said "Here is AiG\'s article and I couldn\'t agree with them more", then you would have an argument.   As I did not, you don\'t. Now, do you retract your false statement that what you quoted was my reasoning?'
+p8653
+aS"Kudos to your counterpart for nicely wrapping up all the creationist talking points into one nice essay. He did an excellent job of paraphrasing answersingenesis, he even hit all the highlights, right down to the human footprints with dinosaurs.   I dont' even know where to begin. The part on geology and the earth's magnetic field was so idiotic it's hard to fathom that someone actually wrote that as a serious point.   I'm continually astounded by the lengths creationists will go to to try and justify their beliefs.   The only thing more astounding is their conviction in the belief of their own rhetoric.   Waxy"
+p8654
+aS'depends on your definition of "human being."'
+p8655
+aS"No surprise there. You would have to invest some thought to define something. Why don't you just consult your Little Golden Dictionary?"
+p8656
+aS'Proving, yet again, some Democrats are, after all, honorable men and women.'
+p8657
+aS'Really? From what university did you earn your science degree that makes you qualified to make judgements about what is science?'
+p8658
+aS'So your answer to the question then is "Nothing", Marc?'
+p8659
+aS"But apparently they can't say no to renting the property for a gay wedding, even if they decide to just say 'no' to everyone and get out of business. go figure"
+p8660
+aS'There is no god that supports the forcing of women to suffer and carry out unplanned pregnancies, just because some PL advocate spits it our. "Sorry, were going to force you to give birth, those men over there have decided".   Thats as ridiculous as saying "There is no god to condones the slaughter of thousands of innocent life forms inside of the cut" (referring to disinfecting a cut).   Pro-lifers have been dropped on their head too many times.'
+p8661
+aS"so why is population control a good arguement for abortion? Why don't we kill old people too..."
+p8662
+aS'And many of the questions that creationists ask.'
+p8663
+aS'Because all scientists hate god, this is a fact.'
+p8664
+aS'Yeah.   They should just be more consistent and have no hypocrisy in a stance that just discriminates against gays...   <end sarcasm>'
+p8665
+aS'So what else is new? Does Texas support the death penalty?'
+p8666
+aS"haha...I'll remember this next time I think of accusing you of spitting in one direction"
+p8667
+aS"Yeah they were. Mostly killed by criminals with guns. Now prove that any legislation that Obama could have enacted would have prevented those deaths.   I'm not holding my breath and I'm not expecting a rational response either..."
+p8668
+aS'Really, did it take long? ROFL. Did they turn grass into a tree or maybe rice into a tomato? Got pics?'
+p8669
+aS'Oh really the people who where behind the petition drive here in michigan want to deny me marriage, Here I will let the head of the organization that spearheaded the drive explain it in her own words.   http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=19408'
+p8670
+aS'And when the President speaks in public we could hand out guns to the audience so that they could respond to any assassination attempt.'
+p8671
+aS'Cute. And I can come up with about 5,000 to 7,000 examples that do have a bright orange muzzle.'
+p8672
+aS'Oh yeah right, like sociopaths who are bent on killing and slaughtering everyone around them, can be fixed with something as stupid as school counseling.'
+p8673
+aS'So in other words your God put you on Earth to stop people from killing so your God could kill them eventually?'
+p8674
+aS'There ya go, Tither, three guys out of several hundred thousand?'
+p8675
+aS'I believe they got XXXXXX at all the conservates on this board. So they went and joined a commie discussion board where they feel more welcome and can send congrats to each other for being smarter than regular people.'
+p8676
+aS'And yet the post-Dunblane handgun ban happened after only one event.'
+p8677
+aS"And secondly, it's a bit rich for them to call it murder when a blastocyst can turn into a tumour.   And oncologists murder tumours all the time..."
+p8678
+aS"Well, I haven't mutated into some other species last time I checked."
+p8679
+aS'And a lot of blacks were killed through hangings. Are you against rope vendors?'
+p8680
+aS"So? God also says he made you out of dirt and then supernaturally lifting the dirt from the ground into the woman's uterus. Oh well, I suppose it is all beliefs no matter how silly it sounds."
+p8681
+aS'Once cannot abort a pregnancy if it has not begun.   The morning after pill prevents a pregnancy from ever occuring by preventing the fertilized egg from implanting.   If one considers pregnancy to begin at conception (i.e. fertilization of the egg), then petri dishes are pregnant when eggs are fertilized on them ("conception") for later IVF.   Do we really want to be considering petri dishes pregnant?'
+p8682
+aS'Oh joy another drive by with absolutely no proof or evidence.'
+p8683
+aS'Including the universe?'
+p8684
+aS"In my lifetime, we've made huge strides, but there's a lot more to learn."
+p8685
+aS'Oh look, a lie. Imagine my surprise.   Truth: Scientists have extrapolated that the universe expanded from an incredibly dense mass. The Big Bang theory does not posit that this mass "popped" into existence; in fact, we have no idea what happened less than 10^-43 seconds after expansion began. It is a common interpretation that there was no time "before" the mass existed, therefore the first law of thermodynamics was not violated.'
+p8686
+aS'So, how many unborn babies did your God drown in Genesis? Talk about hypocrisy.'
+p8687
+aS"So, you consider a so called theory which allows a 10 billion year gap out of an alleged potential 10 to 20 billion year age for the occurrence to be the most credible theory? And is actually supported by evidence? If they have any evidence, why the 10 billion year gap for wiggle room? No wonder you accept evolution as a rational possibility. The fact is, they have no credible evidence at all as the big bang is nothing more than a deduction based on theoretical mathematical equations which can neither be confirmed or verified.   Just read the link and consider the factors cosmologists must consider before even doing the math required to come up with an age. Now consider how skewed the outcome must be if they are incorrectly interpreting even one aspect of the info they are relying on for the equations which result in an age.   Any errors in those results and the out equations are useless. Thus, the 10 billion year gap in their cosmological guessing game.   How Old is the Universe?   Now consider the creator of the big bang theory itself. Edwin Hubble proposed the big bang as a possible beginning of the Universe based on the perceived expansion of the universe from a tiny central singularity back in 1929. Since then it has become the holy grail of the scientific community in explaining how Time and Space began. http://www.umich.edu/~gs265/bigbang.htm   This theory is made up of nothing more than the imaginings of a young cosmologist back in 1929 yet has been adopted as a rational theory by the scientific community as if they are a bunch of lemmings who will grasp at any explanation which doesn't claim that God did it."
+p8688
+aS"There you go. It's difficult to find which side of your mouth to talk out of when the facts are the facts!"
+p8689
+aS"How would you like to have a parasite in your body and not be given treatment to remove it based solely on the fact that even parasitic organisms are living things and deserve life?   Not pretty is it? Imagine being one of those guys in the Alien movies and you've got a chestburster in you that's gonna kill you once its fully gestated, but you're not allowed to have an operation to have it removed from your body because of an intergalatic treaty declaring that all life is precious and must be observed."
+p8690
+aS'and thats just kiddish!'
+p8691
+aS'Oh my stars and garters.   He actually admitted what "the real issue" is.'
+p8692
+aS"I dunno.   Do you think the Tooth Fairy will be happy with people drink-driving?   Any argument from a religious stand-point necessitates proving that said religion is true. Do that, and you'll get a lot of respect from a lot of people."
+p8693
+aS"In other words, the author seems to think that because Mendel didn't know about genes mutating, we must continue to believe they don't.   Complete and utter nonsense from beginning to end."
+p8694
+aS'Way to support your controversial assertion, Bell.'
+p8695
+aS'You mean the truth of thousands of young teen girls dead with a coat hanger in hand? Abortion is a neccessity so that it can be regulated. People will have abortions legal or not legal. At least provide a safety net other than a coat hanger.'
+p8696
+aS"The Book of Genesis is either secular or observed history? Somebody get marc a dictionary, please. (And I'd link him to a long list of observed instances of speciation, but he'd ignore it yet again.)"
+p8697
+aS"But on the other hand, Genesis isn't a scientific document. No wonder. Why would a bronze age nomad from the Levant be aware of at least 3 tailless species of primates, or even the tailed primates from Africa, South America, and even Madigascar. If they aren't mentioned in the Bible, do they exist?"
+p8698
+aS"So...all Christians have some sort of brain damage, trebor? You're not getting any better at this are you?"
+p8699
+aS'As the great Spock said Logic dictates that logic need not apply in this situation.'
+p8700
+aS'Really? Then why did you start off your little rant by admitting that "...microevolution cannot be reasonably disputed." Evolution has been observed, and that is a fact. Speciation in both plants and animals has been observed, and that is a fact. Apparently you don\'t know what a theory is. Might it not be wise to learn just a little about science before you make yourself look so foolish? Theories explain facts.'
+p8701
+aS"So is Jesus, aka God, a liar?   Or was not even one of the millions of believers who prayed for Terri Schiavo's life to be saved really God's child? Gee, I wonder how many people out there are being led by a pastor, priest, or what have you, that prayed but God didn't listen because that religious leader is a fraud? Hmmm, maybe the rape or molestation of young boys, adulty, and so on, by religious leaders is more widespread than anyone could have imagined?!?!?!"
+p8702
+aS'I love this line. I assume by "harm" you mean an actual physical harm or some kind or another (physical in this case includes loss of items). So this would cut our laws in half. Walk around naked? No big deal! Have sex on the street why doing cocaine...go for it! Drunk in public? Who cares!   The list can go on forever.'
+p8703
+aS"You need to experiment with the notion that you will be sexually attracted to your own sex. After you're done, come back and report your findings!"
+p8704
+aS"But you are the accuser. I've read the Bible and I have studied religion, more than you can imagine. I have also studied biology, performed experiments and reached conclusions. The problem is that you seem unable to think for yourself."
+p8705
+aS"So what? They aren't worth anything, are they? Does it matter if we kill them? No, in your reasoning it doesn't because there are no absolutes."
+p8706
+aS"It's usually easier to take the immoral path. Stealing's easier than working. Lying's easier than telling the truth. Being a deadbeat parent is easier than being a good parent. The list goes on and on."
+p8707
+aS"I still haven't heard an answer to this yet?"
+p8708
+aS'This is not to say that every current dictionary includes such a definition... yet... but a number of major on-line ones demonstrably do, and to my knowledge human civilization has yet to suffer any negative effects.   (By the way, the above entries also include the typical "husband and wife" kind of arrangement as well. Funny how words can have more than one meaning, isn\'t it?)'
+p8709
+aS'Well, you ignored the part where I said "voting". But IMO legislative solutions ARE part and parcel to popular appeal because legislators are voted in on that basis. ANY legislator claims to "do what\'s right." So elections tend to be popularity contests. And legislators tend to want to keep their constituents happy.   Oh and just to make sure you understand this Kronos so as not to get off in the wrong direction, this is my opinion, just like everything else I\'ve said. It is not a lie.'
+p8710
+aS'Well...   You can apparently read, but what you have apparently chosen to read - and accept - says much.'
+p8711
+aS'Interesting how the study was set in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. They\'re a city known for violence and gang-related issues. I wouldn\'t be the least bit surprised if those that were shot and counted in this "study" were known gang members who were either shot by their intended victims, or by other rival gang members.'
+p8712
+aS"So they're failing because they're XXXXXX?"
+p8713
+aS'Who said anything about "redefining" it? I said you would still HAVE YOUR "traditional marriage" according to YOUR chosen religion.'
+p8714
+aS"I think that Comrade Brian is pulling our collective legs by pretending to be a die-hard, uninformed, living-in-denial communist, when in fact he's a just another guy trying to have a laugh by trolling the boards.   I truly find it hard to believe that anyone could be so completely uninformed about capitalism and socialism."
+p8715
+aS'Spoken like a true man.'
+p8716
+aS"Really? I haven't seen you post your support for any law or proposal that would punish criminals in the most severe ways possible. All I've ever seen you post support for is more laws that criminalize things that aren't crimes and do nothing to harm others."
+p8717
+aS'so watching TV sports = bad daddy?   do you let your boyfriend/girlfriend or husband watch TV sports or only feminist approved TV channels?'
+p8718
+aS'So, one set of creationists are XXXXXX, but the others are not?'
+p8719
+aS'And if one accepts that gay citizens have equal rights under that Constitution, then one has to accept that a ban on gay marriage is intrinsically unconstitutional.'
+p8720
+aS'You know, considering how little ray knows about science, do you think we could write a creationist load of **** and take these XXXXXX for all their money?'
+p8721
+aS"Don't even think about contriving how gay marrige violates YOUR RIGHTS assmonkey. That's the most ludicrous, inane statement I have yet heard from the Religious Right."
+p8722
+aS'Well, they ARE ultimately the ones that create a vehicle that can travel at break neck speed...perhaps they are partially liable?   Joke.'
+p8723
+aS'I see -- in your opinion is it is "illegitimate", therefore it must be so. I think I trust the legal opinions of the courts more, but then, they do occasionally make mistakes. It\'s just not at all obvious they\'ve made one in this instance.'
+p8724
+aS"So what? A person has a right to defend themselves, as spelled out in the Constitution.   Or would you rather the 80 year old just get beaten to death for his $262?   Or maybe you'd feel better if he'd suffered the same fate as the home invader over in Maryland. He made the mistake of breaking and entering into a student house and was slaughtered with a sword.   And what point are you trying to make anyway? It's not like the 80 year old went on a killing spree of anything. Nobody got murdered. So what're you moaning about?"
+p8725
+aS'And could you be anymore of a drama queen about it, using the raw sweage thing. That is such a stretch of the truth. People straight and gay have been sodomizing for years and their are very few cases of any of e coli every year. Stop drama queening out!'
+p8726
+aS"No, I'm your regional manager."
+p8727
+aS"They can't, if you value science and common sense, however, science and common sense are irrelevent in their world."
+p8728
+aS'You know something is wrong with this world when people attack the act of posting an opinion (that of Ms. King) and another condemns the idea that someone may read it and develop their own opinion. Saving lives is not just a Republican goal. And yes it is an act of desperation. All acts are an act of desperation when it comes to saving the natural process of life with out interference of those who place their comfort above the life inside them.   Whatever is wrong outside the womb, is not the fault of the inhabitant within the womb.'
+p8729
+aS"Just so you don't shoot them!"
+p8730
+aS'Will the Obama administration come for your guns?'
+p8731
+aS'I think maybe you have hit yourself in the head with the Bible a few times too often.'
+p8732
+aS'As opposed to being denied the joys that most of us experience in life. Convenient.   http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sophistry'
+p8733
+aS'Sometimes the state of the education system in the USA makes me cry.'
+p8734
+aS"And, I'm sure you ask yourself that very question before you unzip your fly and whip out your pecker, right?"
+p8735
+aS'Of course we can ignore all the emotional and physical problems women lose when terminating a pregnancy.'
+p8736
+aS'So sorry, I was trying to figure out why God lets some women down, and yet favored you. I always assumed it was a mixture of physiology, luck, etc. Sometimes bad things happen, sometimes good things happen. But you claimed God was the one who saw you through and made sure your daughter was born healthy and functional...So, again, in a similar situation (trust in God, doctors say baby will be born damaged, etc), if it turns out the doctors were right, is God to blame for letting me down? Or was it, in fact, just the way things are sometimes?   Or does God just randomly hear some prayers, but not others? No, no...lemme guess. "God has a plan for us all"?'
+p8737
+aS'Hehehehehehe. That made me laugh, but you actually make a good point. They should have I AM JUST A THEORY written on them, otherwise kids will regard them as fact and then where will we be?'
+p8738
+aS"Like you were raised? Looks like it didn't work and now those hormones must be kicking in? Nothing worse than a menopausal female grinding her ax...their favorite victims? Males."
+p8739
+aS'Oh, ok, I can be politically correct if it makes you feel better. How about I refer to them as "intelligence deficient". And I was really not referring to bona fide "retarded" individuals (those with true pathology). I agree that there is nothing funny about that. How about I refer to them as people who drive like XXXXXX...Is that better?'
+p8740
+aS'so we are making progress. It seems that SS is now admitting that evolution by natural selection really does happen. He admits that his examples are not what he claims they are.   We also see that he objects for religious rather than scientific reasons and is aware of it. Good for you SS.   Sadly, he seems to be falling back on that old creationist saw about "where are the intermediates."'
+p8741
+aS'Oh, it was going so well too'
+p8742
+aS"So when somebody with bad intentions breaks and crawls in through a window, and shuts off your power so you can't use the telephone, and comes busting through your basement door, shooting them is vigilante justice? To you this situation doesn't qualify as self-defense?   I highly doubt the woman is lying about the entire matter, because if she was the prosecuting attorney and the police wouldn't be so willing to not press charges against her."
+p8743
+aS'There goes said intelligence...'
+p8744
+aS"And lets not neglect the fact that he was tetotal and a vegetarian to boot.   Well, looky here we all learnt today that bad people can have have good characteristics............   Sounds like Pastor Russell Johnson's representation of truth is as selective as it is self serving."
+p8745
+aS"So it doesn't matter that someone dies in their forties from hunger and cold because they are homeless and penniless, whilst another lives in luxury with the best food and medicines until his 80s: they are both equal? What planet do you live on, for it sure aren't the real world..."
+p8746
+aS'You\'ve gotta love when ignorance lends itself to incredible mistakes like the above statement. "Excepting" that there is some magical sky man is precisely what atheists do.   Looks like we have another Einstein who wants to test his opinions with people who actually know what they\'re talking about.   lpdm, you\'d better learn quickly, or I don\'t think you\'ll like it here as much as you were hoping.'
+p8747
+aS"Because it's simply too obviously true?"
+p8748
+aS'None... unless she uses abortion as a form of birth control and has them regularly.'
+p8749
+aS'HOLY SH*T, marc. You\'re doing EXACTLY WHAT THE REVIEW SAYS YOU PEOPLE DO. You\'re making the claim without giving any explanation. "OMG TEH SCEINCES IS ATHIESTIC BECUZ THEY JUST AER!!"   Thanks for making it extremely clear. Refuting a point by demonstrating it isn\'t very effective.   Seriously, how disconnected from reality does one have to be in order to do something like this?'
+p8750
+aS'Should all drivers have to help pay for harm done by irresponsible drivers?'
+p8751
+aS"So being easy to know makes it good? methinks that's not quite right."
+p8752
+aS'And your Orwellian position is showing.'
+p8753
+aS"Oh, well. Apparently you want to talk molecular chemistry whereas I was hoping to discuss organismic evolution. Too bad. Good luck with anyone who wants to debate your topic, but it just doesn't interest me."
+p8754
+aS"I'd be curious if Berkowitz studied whether a sword or club produced the same effect as a firearm?   Short of castrating all boys at the onset of puberty, I'm afraid boys will be boys."
+p8755
+aS'/hypothetical mode on.   The State murders an innocent man.   /hypothetical mode off.'
+p8756
+aS"You mean, intelligent design, which has been proven in court to be not science, and to be a front for certain religious agenda's, and straight forward arguments based on ignorance of the evidence and logical fallacies.   If you look at the organizations that push I.D. , you will see they have a religious agenda . The discovery institute is funded by religious organizations, and every one of the board will admit they thing the 'intelligent designer' is the Christian god. Read the 'wedge strategy' from them."
+p8757
+aS'Again, "THE MOST OVERTURNED COURT IN HISTORY"'
+p8758
+aS'And you are on intimate terms with the Queen, eh?   By the way, what is it exactly that that little thingy above signifies?   I hope I have used the right emotive whatchamacallit.'
+p8759
+aS'Neener neener - is it time to go in from the playground yet?'
+p8760
+aS"Personally, I believe that god doesn't exist, and I have a link, too!   By the way, sorry for all the links, but I have found that since creationism has been so well refuted elsewhere, I don't have to do too much work. It also helps that I'm presenting evidence, right?"
+p8761
+aS'And oddly enough you have been given several on silver platters. Perhaps you need to visit a neurologist and get checked for memory problems? Just to remind you once more - SICKLE CELL TRAIT is a mutation AND it benefits the phenotype under specific definable conditions. Do you really want to get hit about the head with that bat yet again?'
+p8762
+aS'I see. So the Bible is true because you claim it is true.'
+p8763
+aS'Oh!   Did you mean something like this in gun free France:   http://www.guardian.co.uk/internatio...ews+-+guardian   Those weapons were cheap and from an eastern block country. Machine guns are for sissy American felons. Real felons in gun free France use anti-tank weapons.'
+p8764
+aS'This must comfort you.'
+p8765
+aS"that's right, i don't want ANOTHER parental figure to tell me what to do, when to do it, and how to do it."
+p8766
+aS"You must know a lot of Abortionist to make that claim. And Obviously they must have had you 'round for dinner to know how much they make and where they live. If you have so many Abortionist friends then why are you so anti choice?"
+p8767
+aS'Hey, thanks for the quote! Am I published now?'
+p8768
+aS"So, which is it? You don't want violators of Federal law to have guns, yet you don't want them to get rid of them either. Can't possibly do both, now can you? Which one? Do the law breakers keep them, or not? Make it against the law to keep the guns...now make it against the law to sell them. DUH! I guess we'll just hang out in limbo-land!"
+p8769
+aS"Because deer don't live in Africa."
+p8770
+aS'Sure let me have your sermon/propaganda of misinformation since it doesn\'t match the context of the Scriptures.   propaganda   n : information that is spread for the purpose of promoting some cause.   mis\xc2\xb7in\xc2\xb7form  Pronunciation Key (msn-f\xc3\x83\xc2\xb4rm)   tr.v. mis\xc2\xb7in\xc2\xb7formed, mis\xc2\xb7in\xc2\xb7form\xc2\xb7ing, mis\xc2\xb7in\xc2\xb7forms   To provide with incorrect information.   con\xc2\xb7text Pronunciation Key (kntkst) n.   1. The part of a text or statement that surrounds a particular word or passage and determines its meaning.   2. The circumstances in which an event occurs; a setting.   And since your "experience" does not guarantee you to be an expert I will stick to the context which matches what I have said.   Job 32: 4 And Elihu had waited for Job with words, because they were older than he in days. 5 When Elihu saw that there was no answer in the mouth of the three men, then his anger burned. 6 And Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite answered and said, I am young, and you are very aged; so I held back and was afraid to make my knowledge known to you. 7 I said, Days will speak, and many years will make wisdom known. 8 But it is a spirit in man giving them perception, even the breath of the Almighty. 9 It is not the great that are wise, nor the aged who perceive justice; 10 so then I say, Listen to me; I will declare my knowledge, I also.'
+p8771
+aS'Oh I understand plenty. What you want is a system where a person is held responsible for crimes that they didn\'t commit. You want "guilty by association" extended to the point of ridiculousness where anybody who even met the criminal even once can be held as an accomplice.'
+p8772
+aS'Maybe He spoke very slowly.   Anyway, Creationism is not synonymous with Christianity. Literalists have a problem, not all Christians.'
+p8773
+aS"Edmund, you still haven't come out of that wardrobe."
+p8774
+aS"We need to ban box cutters. We need to ban box cutter shows. We need to prohibit box cutters on school campus. We need to to ban extra efficient assault box cutters because the can open more boxes than regular boxes. We need to register all box cutters. We need to reduce the box cutter supply to prevent box cutters from getting to criminals. Regular people don't need box cutters, they can just use pointy sticks to cut tape on boxes.   Did you notice. They did not use guns. Terrorist in our country used box cutters and fertilizer and U-hauls to kill people.   We need to ban fertilizer and U-hauls........."
+p8775
+aS"Sorry did I say pacifist?I meant yellow bellied pacifist.However if its any consolation, I meant anti's in general not just you Sinj.sorry if it sounded that way."
+p8776
+aS"You mean Priests? Because I hear the ladies are crawling all over them, can't get enough of that catholic loving..."
+p8777
+aS"Actually it's all men."
+p8778
+aS"And that's what scientists will do. No change there, then.   Now, on the subject of long-held religious views, how many so-called Christians will have a rethink when presented with new findings?"
+p8779
+aS"What makes you think I don't. Yours is not the only religion on earth!! And I didn't just jump to the concluision that your soul needed concern, so don't jump to it with me."
+p8780
+aS'Quote Mining. You got to love it. Always fascinating when stuff is dishonestly taken out of context. Normally, we see this from creationists, but you are by no means the first prolifer who has engaged in this practice. But lets look at it'
+p8781
+aS'Who cares?'
+p8782
+aS'And there we go again. Re-read the bit about dancing around the land mines, if you in fact did read it the first time.'
+p8783
+aS"Well, the short version is that shortly after the big bang, the universe was filled by a hot quark plasma. As it expanded and cooled, the process of nucleosynthesis produced the primordial elemental abundance, primarily hydrogen, with some deutirium, helium, and lithium. The physics is well understood, and verified by observation. Quantifying uncertainties in primordial nucleosynthesis without Monte Carlo simulations   At roughly a billion years of age, stars and galaxies formed, some fraction of the stars that formed were massive supergiants, that burned up their hydrogen into other elements, up to the atomic number of iron. This occurred at a tremendous rate and in a few more billion years, these stars went supernova and exploded. Prior to going supernova, these stars go through a phase where the outer layers of the star are shed, providing ways to transport the lighter elements away from the star. You can see this in the following link:   Hubble Chemically Analyzes the Ring around Supernova 1987A   The trememdous radiation of the supernova permits the formation of elements with atomic numbers higher than iron. The force of these explosions scattered the newly created elements, creating vast gas and dust clouds. Eventually, the shockwave of another explosion initiated the collapse of one of these clouds, and the spinning hydrogen cloud begins to heat , eventually initiating nuclear fusion, and becoming our sun. As the sun began to increase it's heat output, the volatile remains of the accretion disk are driven away from the inner portion of the solar system, leaving mostly heavy elments. Comets bombarded the inner solar system, transporting water, carbon, and amino acids to the newly forming earth, making dirt.   In short, a truely wonderful creation."
+p8784
+aS'Well any group or individual not spouting left-tard drivel is actually a hate group. The military is of such low intellect that they are easy to sway into hate groups. Hence the homeland insecurity warning on returning veterans.'
+p8785
+aS'No Christian sin??? Other then the intent to kill and then doing so'
+p8786
+aS"By far most speech about homosexuality from those who don't approve is not hate speech. You've been listening to too much propaganda from gay lobby groups who think demonizing and working toward persecuting Christians for their beliefs is the best means to an end. If Canada limited it's persecution only to those who are trying to change the law, there wouldn't be a problem."
+p8787
+aS'And you have been refuted time after time. Lies, damn lies and statistics is a starting point. Its the false idea of the more powerless you render yourself the safer you will be. I bet you strongly believe its possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.'
+p8788
+aS'Well, I see that Hunter continues with his intentional ignorance. Even though it has been explained to him on several occasions, he still chants his "evolution is only a theory" mantra in hopes that his audience will be as ignorant as he.   Yes, evolution is a theory. In science that means that it has been tested and accepted as essentially correct. Evolution is a theory just as gravity is a theory - several in fact; Newtonian gravity, general relativity, and quantum gravity. None of those theories actually work in all situations.   But for all practical purposes, evolution has been proven. That\'s easy since evolution has been observed and the theories are build on the facts of those observations.   You will notice that Hunter hasn\'t proven any of his assertions. He just knows that there are talking snakes, and magical beings that make people out of dirt. Sure - go ahead and start with the Bible so you can get the mythology of two different creation stories, an impossible flood, and such fantasies as a man being swallowed by a whale or the any human would know about a god that wagers with Satan, out of the way. Not only will you find no proof to support the Bible, you won\'t evern find any evidence.'
+p8789
+aS"But...but...   I just swallowed 56 zygotes so that they could vote by proxy through me for the Ripofflican(tm) party this upcoming election so they can win. Now I'm going to have all that indigestion for nothin'.   As to driving...don't care.   What I'll miss most is all of those credit card offers that come in their names. There's just so much that they, living though me want to 'buy now and pay later' on. You saying they can't do that?   But, that's just the argument Chem99a and I are having in another thread.   And this is what it devolves down into.   Parasite attached to a human and one that's coaxes it (often with governmental support) to nurish it...not much difference.   Personally, I'd rather have the sucker permanently attached to me so I'm not forced to think about feeding it or changing it's diaper. I'd also take a kick to the ribs over cholic crying.   Silly neglegence laws...   Yep.   I do think some would be willing to work towards compromises that would make the most happy. Jitobear seems to be one from my observations.   But, others want it their way.   I dislike abortion but can see in some circumstances that there really isn't much of an alternative. I also see that most anti-abortionists often don't help to provide alternatives.   I don't want to make it illegal per se but do want to work towards reducing the instrances in which a woman would see it as a more viable alternative.   It'd be nice if society and science would progress to that point.   But, since it isn't and since I'm evil(tm), kill it.   Go ahead...be a murderer.   Muahahahaha.   Evil WINS!   Go evil, go evil, go evil...   Um, isn't evil subjective?"
+p8790
+aS"Only if she's piloting at the same time."
+p8791
+aS"Oh ye of little faith. I'm sure he's capable of being much more stupid than that!"
+p8792
+aS"Do you have a fire extinguisher in your house? I have never had a fire in my kitchen but I still keep a fire extinguisher in there. I look at wearing firearms for self defense the same way I look at wearing a seat belt. I wear it and pray I'll never need it, but I'll be damn glad I'm wearing it if I do need it.   God Bless"
+p8793
+aS'Oh no! Here comes Palin, run for cover.   Because I really fear ignorant and hypocritical conservatives. As to your argument, while were out calling fertilized eggs "men", lets call plant life "men" as well.'
+p8794
+aS'So if I come and insult and demonize you or somebody you love - you might still consider me a good person?'
+p8795
+aS'Those walking sperm will be funding your social security in the future, Matt. What will your sperm be doing besides causing stains?'
+p8796
+aS'Oh I\'m so sure that\'s the case. "Well the economy\'s at the worst I\'ve ever seen and I don\'t have a job and can\'t possibly provide a living for my family and we\'re in danger of losing our house and living on the streets, but I don\'t think I\'ll save us all a lot of pain and agony because I don\'t have a gun meaning that it\'ll just be too much work to kill ourselves."   Yeah right, like a lack of having a gun would\'ve kept this family from dying in this instance. Your comments cheapen the value of life.'
+p8797
+aS"And by old fashion I assume you mean Greece a couple of thousand years ago. That's the only place and time I can think of off hand where the populace (by which I mean landed men in this case) could vote to change laws. In this country the correct procedure for a citizen to change an unjust law is via the courts, and always has been.   However, I don't think that is, in fact, what Jyoshu was refering to."
+p8798
+aS'In other words youre happier because the old man did something criminal and broke the law.   Admit it.'
+p8799
+aS'Can your intellect explain infinity...such a tasty word'
+p8800
+aS'You need to learn what a metaphor is, if english is your first language you must have been dropped out of school as a baby.   When the researchers say plants "know" they are near their genetic cousins, they don\'t mean they have a conscious awareness of it and deliberately alter their growth patterns. That is, it is a specific physical response to a specific physical stimuli, and the plants could be made to do the same thing by the presentation of the same stimulus in the absence of any other plants.   Of course, you aren\'t interested in testing things, because that would be too materialist for you. You just prefer to skim articles and fail to understand metaphors, that\'s true "psychical science".'
+p8801
+aS'You got THAT right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!'
+p8802
+aS'So, it was a form of birth control?'
+p8803
+aS'Not necessarily. When "life" begins is irrelevant, because flowers and weeds don\'t have rights yet they are a life form. The thing that determines rights is intelligence. Not how much or how little, but whether someone has it at all. A spec of dirt has no intelligence. It won\'t pop up and say "hey! How ya doin!" unless you\'re on crack. We\'ve actually killed intelligent entities for less than the consequences of carrying out an unwanted pregnancy. We hunt, and we go to war. Even though I do not agree with war, I do agree with hunting, and I myself hunt on occasion. However, that is off topic. The point is, carrying out an unwanted pregnancy can have devastating effects, and those next 18 years could hold her back from her life. Its awful how she will have to liver her life. If she gets an abortion, the embryo does not (to quote another opinion) "mentally exist". Now, hunting is really only done for recreation, and maybe a good meal. They would\'ve been almost just as well off if they went to the local taco bell. Sure, they\'d prefer hunting, but its really only done for fun and exercise. I, myself, value an animal over an embryo at its current stage. The only reason I don\'t completely think an animal is worth more is because that embryo has a chance of becoming a human. Then again, the animal does mentally exist and has full awareness, and the embryo is really just a sitting cellular watersack with no organs.'
+p8804
+aS"Well what do you expect?! Everytime gun owners try and do anything to combat crime, you liberal sissies yell and scream about vigilantism and foam at the mouth as you talk about how we're taking the law into our own hands and that we'll be administering death sentences without trials for matters as trivial as jaywalking!   You want us to combat crime, but you don't want us to actually do anything. Make up your mind already!"
+p8805
+aS"And I'm guessing by your misinformed posts that you have not been high before. Did you recently watch a film called Reefer Madness by any chance?"
+p8806
+aS"You are apparently unwilling to extend your thinking process to the other side of the argument Galileo, and by this I mean, and repeat that it isn't criminals owning hand guns which we defenders of gun rights are fighting for. WE AGREE THAT CRIMINALS SHOULDN'T BE ARMED, and the laws already exist on the books to punish them when convicted criminals are caught with guns. But your solution to disarm all honest citizens in the belief that this will make them unavailable to criminals also is ludicrous to the point of self destructive insanity. It is that premise which we are fighting against through the NRA and other lobbying efforts."
+p8807
+aS"Probably because buildings aren't biological or reproductive."
+p8808
+aS'What, to be "open-minded?" or to embrace your definition of "tolerance?"'
+p8809
+aS'And the moon could fall from the sky, too.'
+p8810
+aS'Oh, well when you put it that way....   Maybe you could address this one thing.   "The total elimination of arms from society."   You\'d think someone from Brady might have said this somewhere, sometime, that you could compare to the memo.   I would.'
+p8811
+aS'Oh, gee! There goes my irony meter. It pegged and started smoking at the end of the first sentence. Archy is just being christian by trying to impose his twisted morality on everyone.'
+p8812
+aS"Well, I think it is best to use a real source. Like the Australian FBI, called the A.I.C..   The latest figures. Violent crimes from 1996 to 2007 (per 100,000 persons per year)   Homicide is pretty much a flat line no? However there violent crime is not. And to be fair, Australia's murder rate has always been significantly lower then ours and they should be congratulated for there socialization for it too.   So if gun related crime goes down but the murder rate remains relatively flat, but other violent crimes go up, then what is thew point of mentioning that GUN Related crime went down?"
+p8813
+aS'You go to hell when you do not ask for FORGIVENESS from your sins and ask Christ to govern your life and help you to stop sinning. I am still a sinner, but I am forgiven and I ask Christ daily to help me with my fleshly desires.'
+p8814
+aS'Golly gee. Scared already?'
+p8815
+aS"Just because you don't hold the same beliefs as we do, does not invalidate our belief. I feel sorry for you if all you have to believe in is a small petri dish of algae. You do need absolute proof if your going claim it as the only possible way of creation."
+p8816
+aS'And you are proud of that?'
+p8817
+aS"Yes, with a crime rate larger than New York City, Chicago, Philadelphia, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Indianapolis, and Las Vegas, they're a wonderful example to follow, aren't they?"
+p8818
+aS'Interesting how the study was set in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. They\'re a city known for violence and gang-related issues. I wouldn\'t be the least bit surprised if those that were shot and counted in this "study" were known gang members who were either shot by their intended victims, or by other rival gang members.   Blah, blah, blah.   Stop throwing out discredited and biased stories. Explain in your own terms, exactly how having a gun makes you more likely to be shot. Explain the mechanics of how this works. Go on and try, make some sense rather than cherry picking poorly executed "studies" that prove nothing.   You made the claim that if you have a gun in your possession, this fact magnifies your chances of somehow being shot. What you suggest can only happen if magic somehow exists, like the legally-owned guns sends out powerful magnetic waves to attract the criminals and hypnotizes them to shoot in a situation that they normally wouldn\'t shoot.'
+p8819
+aS'Yes come over here and live in gun hating australia could you. THen when you call the cops after your father has been murdered and you kidnapped and torchered because you cannot have a gun for self defence you can wait 9 HOURS for the police to come and find your bloodied body lying on the ground. When you think of it 9 hours is not that long, I can fly from QLD to Japan in that, or play 3 baseball games back to back or run 3 marathons back to back. I am sure that somebody of your "intelligence" will have no problems with distracing some murders for 9 hours.   Why carnt US soldiers carry guns on base for self defense?   Please winston i cnallenge you to show us some cold hard facts that taking guns away from the law abiding drives crime down. Perhaps that family could have done it in the 9 hours it took for the police to come.'
+p8820
+aS"I know this may seem obvious to most people, but it seems to have escaped the notice of creationists. Birds are tetrapods, as are amphibians, reptiles, and mammals. Birds didn't just grow wings. Wings are adaptions of the front limbs that were covered with feathers. Perhaps you are unaware of the evidence that indicates that maniraptors had feathers, probably for thermoregulation. Saying that there is no mechanism for birds to grow wings when they previously had none is like saying that there is no mechanism for mankind to grow arms when he previously had none. You see, mankind's closest relatives are the two species of chimpanzee - they are quadrupeds."
+p8821
+aS"I thought I'd give Brady and Penfold a chance to tell us what a bad man this guy was for defending himself like that.   BTW, here in Alaska he didn't need to have a concealed carry permit. Here, if you can legally own a gun you can carry it with a few exceptions.   Merry Christmas"
+p8822
+aS'Rofl\xe2\x80\xa6 What were they supposed to do if they stayed in the egg longer with more time to feed off of it? Shrink?'
+p8823
+aS"I see. So what you are saying is that you are unsure about evolution and wish to explore it. Great. Then start with one of those unreasonable and dumb arguments and present it. Why are you more reasonable and not so dumb?   It's easy to do what you have done. I can claim that invisible pink unicorns push the moon across the sky. I can claim that you are unreasonable and dumb because you disagree with me. But it is meaningless unless I am willing to show that I have a pair and can step up and show why I am right.   Do you have a pair?"
+p8824
+aS'Am i stupid or something... whats a YEC? Young Energetic Children?   Yacking Economistic Critters Yummy expensive cupcakes?   Maybe im just dumb or something... i hope it was one of those three for my sake.'
+p8825
+aS"Mehhh.... You probably went to a Catholic school.   But now that you've stopped 'devoting' your 'life' to the God of the Bible, you've 'devoted' yourself to another god, Yourself. Typical case."
+p8826
+aS"And I wasn't asked if I wanted my federal tax dollars to go towards hetero benefits and to support their walking sperm."
+p8827
+aS'Please, I beg you, stop trying to jam the world into your "creation" account through reason. You just won\'t get anywhere through reason, if your first choice is to believe the bible (any religious works) as truth, and go from there.   What you just said is "[adaptation] would be mutation by natural selection, not evolution"   First, the adaptation refers to the adaptation of the species. A population of wingless beetles survives. The missing wings is the mutation, and isn\'t caused by anything other than a mutation, it\'s not a result of their being winds, or there being a god, it\'s just a mutation in the gene code.   The gene for the wings can dissappear into the endless gulf of other discarded mutations since those organisms that carry it will most likely die off before reproductive age. It can also be left in the DNA sequence, unused, and not active, unless some other mutation activates it. ( A large percentage of our DNA seems to be unused garbage code).   When this happens, your species evolved. What is your point, that beetles can evolve? Yes, they do. All life on earth seems to. Yet you don\'t think it\'s due to evolution? Mind-boggling. Who is telling you evolution is "bad" or "wrong"? Only if you arrive at that conclusion WITHOUT religion, can you even begin to have a discussion on it.   Evolution in life only requires:   DNA replication   Mutations   A natural environment (that is, what we see here on earth, a complex system)   time   Which of these do you feel is "incorrect"? We can prove any of these, why persist?   -Mach'
+p8828
+aS'My money is on parents as singular.'
+p8829
+aS"So what is the bible then? Simply a nice story-book for you to read from?   If Genesis is simply a representative story from which we can interpret the actions of god to mean natural selection and evolution, what about the ten commandments?   It always amazes me to hear people with positions like this insist that it is okay to play fast and loose with their interpretations of Genesis or the Arc, but God really does hate the homosexuals. It says so in Leveticus, right? So it must be word perfect truth...   This bit about the origins of the earth? Oh, we just interpret that as god designing evolution. But that part about people burning in hell for eternity, that's true, right?"
+p8830
+aS"So in your own words the police want to go on murder sprees, because they're armed. According to you the military is just waiting for the first convenient excuse to open fire on anyone, be them designated enemies or just innocent bystanders."
+p8831
+aS"You mean your hypothetical I presume? Murder violates the rights of the murdered by relieving them of their life. That's why it's illegal.   You're a bit slow I see."
+p8832
+aS'So it is claimed.'
+p8833
+aS"Really? I have argued that God is an epic liar? Can you point out me arguing that at all you EPIC LIAR? Once again you are interpreting what I have said through that sick and unbalanced mind of yours, and then extrapolating that I am now arguing in favor of calling my God an EPIC LIAR. Is it absolutely impossible for you to debate issues while actually responding to what we really say rather than reading into what we say and redefining it to fit your warped and perverse perspective?   I mean, how sick and disturbed must your powers of reason and logic be for you to interpret my argument that Man, because of our linear view of time, is misreading the fact that God placed the stars in space at the same time much more recently than it appears to us to have occurred, that God is then an epic liar? Is God responsible for how we interpret the evidence when we attempt to do it apart from placing Him first and foremost into the equation? Is He the liar? Or are you who think like that deceiving yourselves by ignoring His place in the creation of time and space?   It is just completely beyond you to think from an honest and objective perspective, isn't it obvious child!   But for a more practical answer, imagine this. In the beginning, space was a void which spanned all of eternity. Only one object/energy source encompassed all of it from one end of its massive emptiness to the other, and that person was my God Yahweh. And in one second or minutes time, he spoke all of the stars that have ever existed, at different intensities and strengths, which causes them to burn out at different times. But he placed them at the very inner and outer limits of time and space at that time. Liken it to a farmer with a hand full of seeds. He pulls back his arm and throws those seeds to the end of the plot of land he is sowing at that time. To the ants on the ground, if they measured the time it would take to reach the farthest seed, it would represent a great distance, but to the farmer it was just one arms throw in time to disperse hundreds of seeds at one time.   Now here we are as finite creatures who can only see time from our linear perspective. Time is plastic. Our linear measure is man made for our convenience only. That you place what we call the measure of so called light years is arbitrary at best. But I am getting too deep for you and this discussion. The point is that our God has the ability to place the stars in every corner of not only what we again, arbitrarily call our universe, but throughout all of time and space.   But to we puny finite humans who have invented telescopes, it appears that these stars we are seeing today are ancient based on the perceived yet arbitrarily arrived at distance you believe they are from us. But since you are unable to even grasp the hugeness of our God, you also fail to appreciate that light years are a measure of distance rather than time. So by that definition alone, it is foolish to equate it with Earth time rather than Gods ability to reach any distant place in time and space and place stars there."
+p8834
+aS"Well Spam&amp;Scram is certainly the strangest of the anti-evolution crowd I've come across. He even proclaims that animals change as fact, not something that Creationists concede lightly.   He claims to know very little then decides he knows it all... (OK that's more like a Creationist.)   It might be intresting to see what happens if he came into contact with Creationists."
+p8835
+aS'Oh, good, I get to do this again! They\'re not Christians, just like Judge Jones isn\'t a Lutheran. (Your foot should still be in your mouth over that one, but you never learn.) They\'re all phonies, aren\'t they, marc? Lucky for marc, he can accurately assess people\'s belief systems without knowing the slightest thing about their beliefs. But I have this "power," too:marc is an atheist. Sure, he says all this fundie Christian stuff, but he\'s really an atheist. I know it in my heart because my own belief system, infallible and based upon the teachings of God himself, tells me so. I know, because I know Christians, and marc\'s not a Christian. He\'s just a big phony.   And there you go... atheist. Clearly, I\'ve correctly labeled you, and you are nothing but a false teacher.Pathetic, marc. Absolutely, positively pathetic.'
+p8836
+aS"Just like you did with your astounding ignorance of erosion?   Fresh Organic Sample is just as old as centuries old time capsule because they are both on top of the ground!   Where do you buy your South American Villagers Dinosaur commercial art? I'd love to give some to the kids!"
+p8837
+aS'Wow! You really have been paying attention to the Democratic smear campaign of the healthcare insurance industry, haven&#8217;t you? Did you also pay attention to their relative profit margins VS those of other industries? It was 2.2% ROI!!! Banks make 10X that much and I don&#8217;t hear your demagoguery directed at them. In fact over 35 other industries make higher profits than health insurance companies.   Try doing some of your own research for a change and stop listening to DNC brainwashing. If they spent \xc2\xbd of the time that they spend railing against the current healthcare insurance companies on something more pertinent, like shutting off the unlimited money supply to banks, this country would be able to pay for our, and probably Canada&#8217;s, healthcare.'
+p8838
+aS'I dunno, maybe it was in the third trimester?'
+p8839
+aS'Oh No, everyone! Our Mollusca has been undercut! Whatever shall we do?'
+p8840
+aS'wow, I never thought a qoute would be so stupid as to compare it to a house. Fine then what if I compare your head to a house that is housing ur brain. But it would be perfectly legal to rip it out and steamroll it on the street for allto see.   (by ur rules of course this would be a perfectly acceptable thing to do)'
+p8841
+aS"You repeat that like it actually means something! Could it that your side is paranoid looking for some vast Right Winged conspiracy?   Maybe it's Bush's fault!"
+p8842
+aS"Oh no an open minded church that doesn't hate? GASP! And sorry but the bible has many interpretations as is clearly seen in the WIDE and VAST amount of differing denominations. Just because their not closes binded right wing bigots doesn't mean you can grill them cause their interpretation is different..."
+p8843
+aS"I'm not surprised that no one on your side of the debate would correct you, but wolves and dogs are both members of the same species. The Canid species, specifically the Gray Wolf, or the Canis lupus which the domesticated dog is an extremely close relative of, differing from it by at most 0.2% of mtDNA sequence.   The evolution of the domestic dog   The earliest remains of the domestic dog date from 10 to15 thousand years ago21; the diversity of these remains suggests multiple domestication events at different times and places. Dogs may be derived from several different ancestral gray wolf populations, and many dog breeds and wild wolf populations must be analysed in order to tease apart the genetic sources of the domestic dog gene pool. A limited mtDNA restriction fragment analysis of seven dog breeds and 26 gray wolf populations from different locations around the world has shown that the genotypes of dogs and wolves are either identical or differ by the loss or gain of only one or two restriction sites22. The domestic dog is an extremely close relative of the gray wolf, differing from it by at most 0.2% of mtDNA sequence.   In comparrison, the gray wolf differs from its closest wild relative, the coyote, by about 4% of mitochondrial DNA sequence14 (Fig. 4). Therefore, the molecular genetic evidence does not support theories that domestic dogs arose from jackal ancestors24. Dogs are gray wolves, despite their diversity in size and proportion; the wide variation in their adult morphology probably results from simple changes in developmental rate and timing 25. Link to source site:   http://www.idir.net/~wolf2dog/wayne2.htm   Here's a lineage graph:   http://www.idir.net/~wolf2dog/images/W2FIG4.gif   And what fossil records can you show that one species of animal has evolved into another species of animal?"
+p8844
+aS'http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/list.html   Somehow merely clicking the link makes you look like a hypocrite.'
+p8845
+aS'You are, in effect, telling me that putting someone in a position that will inevitable leave them dead does not make you responsible for their death. If I fire a bullet at your head, while that bullet is in mid-air, I am no longer doing anything to hurt you, and you are fine. However, I have set in motion affects that will result in your demise. This makes me responsible for your death.'
+p8846
+aS'Wonder what "euthanization" is. Never heard of it before, and neither has the dictionary.'
+p8847
+aS"It was a pretty clear rebuttle of the idea that the ToE breeds social elitism, Marxism, and Nazisim.   I guess you're right though, SS. This wasn't nearly as entertaining as a slough of out-of-context quotes to show that ToE-accepting biologists reject the ToE."
+p8848
+aS"So if everyone had a sign on them and a water pistol then would you be happier or does everyone need to have a gun? Should everyone who has a gun have a sign as well? Is the deterrent of a gun diminished without the sign?   I'm also not going to address my brother in every single post. He is a shining example of why I don't like guns but that doesn't mean I'm going to talk about him constantly."
+p8849
+aS'Not in matters of atheism. Tell me, when science discovers something that seems to agree with the 150 year old writings of Darwin, are the writings of Darwin disregarded? Or is that type of history trumpeted to the masses?'
+p8850
+aS"**   It's up to you. Stop bringing up red herrings and/or arguing by personal attack, or don't expect me to treat your posts with any less contempt than I have for most of what's been posted to this board."
+p8851
+aS'You mean like how you suck any rationale thought or discourse from a debate topic? Talk about ABORTING.'
+p8852
+aS'lol...you read my whole post only to conclude with "what\'s your point." Evolutionist brilliance on display. I\'m not mistaking nothing for nothing. I know my stuff. You obviously know nothing and don\'t care to learn it.'
+p8853
+aS"^ This is the funny part!....   My answer:   .45acp strapped to your hip... .05 seconds to respond to threat...   Crocidile Dundee's answer:   Call the police... 1-30 seconds to get to the phone.... 1-3 seconds to dial police (if you have 911) 30 Seconds to 5 minutes to splain yourself..... 5-30-??? time for police to respond..   My analysys:   Your dead!!!   Having the logic bus mow you down:   PRICELESS!!   (sorry Kelvin... COuld not resist!)"
+p8854
+aS'And from where did you get this idea? Please provide your references.'
+p8855
+aS'Because those who are pro life are against a womens right to own her own body. Her body her choice and none of anyone elses business. Remember control freaks are everywhere.'
+p8856
+aS"**   Back to the dark side,eh, and 'argument by personal attack upon the character of your opponent'?"
+p8857
+aS'But in terms of legality and constitutionality, do you believe that they should still be prohibited?   Also, how can god hate? I thought he was true love. Scratch that-- I thought he was unknowable.   Thanks'
+p8858
+aS'Because you say so?'
+p8859
+aS"Any proof that he was a murderous sociopath? It's your assertion...   I can't help but feel you're grasping at straws."
+p8860
+aS"So the fact that it is not legally recognized is the problem. What is the reason it's not legally recognized? Because the couple is gay."
+p8861
+aS"No, think about what you just said. A cancer cell doesn't mutate, it attacks healthy cells and causes the destruction of healthy tissue. Kinda like liberals in a healthy society - they are the free radicals of the body politic, huh... go figure."
+p8862
+aS"So, how many kids do you have?   And, do you know their names? What they like to do?   It doesn't sound like you've been much of a dad if all you did is providing for them. Did you watch TV sports the rest of the time?"
+p8863
+aS"So according to you, you'd prefer it if only the bad guys are armed, because that makes it easy to tell who's the bad guy and who's the good guy; being the good guy is never armed, and thus never able to defend themselves."
+p8864
+aS'So will they be in front of or behind a leaf?'
+p8865
+aS'**   I "pretend" to nothing. I am not "pretending" to beilieve you to be a materialit/darwinist. I do believe exactly that.   And as for your threat to make my arguments look silly, I\'m not shaking in my boots. I\'ve made your arguments look presumptuous, pretentious and silly, but you have never yet succeeded in doing that to any of mine.'
+p8866
+aS'So what\'s your solution, keep all blacks unarmed so the bad blacks can\'t hurt the good blacks?   I guess you\'ve decided to drop your argument that the Second Amendment was a racist tool designed to keep blacks "in their place" under the thumb of their masters.'
+p8867
+aS'So which is it: the action is moral, the action is immoral, or there is no answer? You seem confused.'
+p8868
+aS"Stop telling me to look at the big picture when you've had both of your eyes gouged out!   Your entire statement here is beyond stupid. If the criminals felt that the only time to be armed was when their intended victims could fight back, then the criminals in DC would never be armed and the police wouldn't have needed to introduce gun shot sensors in the city. But since DC was the murder capital of the United States, that says an absence of hard targets isn't a guarantee that the abusers will play fair and not use weapons."
+p8869
+aS"Just like it's the job of the gun control lobby to try and pass an overwhelming, unreasonable level of fear of an inanimate object?"
+p8870
+aS'Then by that standard, christianity is horse puckey! Christians contradict each other. Oh! But wait. Anyone who disagrees with you isn\'t "really" a christian.'
+p8871
+aS'NO PERMIT IS REQUIRED IN VIRGINIA! You can legally carry a firearm there if you are legally allowed to own one.   Virginia performs an FBI background check and issues a permit UPON REQUEST for those who would like the convenience of carrying in another state that does require a permit.   This statistic is just those who have requested one! Imagine how many people who lawfully carry THAT HAVE NOT requested one! I would imagine the number of folks legally carrrying is WAY more that those who have went through the trouble of filing a request.   Yet, in THREE YEARS, people who lawfully carry a gun have "killed" 107 people?   OOOOOOH! Wow! So us legal carriers have committed one tenth of one percent of all gun "killings"? (Notice they don\'t say if these are justified or not.) Just to see how that looks - - - .01% - - There. That\'s how it looks:   .01%.   It\'s obvious why they don\'t compare this statistic to the average for the percentage of "killings" by the rest of the population who don\'t even carry guns.   Because it would show that "killings" by people who don\'t even carry guns outnumber "killings" by those who do by a HUGE margin.   The VPC can\'t have that now, can they? When you show the ENTIRE statistic, it makes gun carriers look SAFER than the regular population.   The HORROR! It would mean the VPC\'s point of view would be....uh....WRONG!'
+p8872
+aS'Do you have any evidence that this is so? Why would they be totally useless - is it just because you can\'t imagine a use?   Why do you think that a small, quick dinosaur with relatively long arms (not like the short useless arms of T. rex that couldn\'t even reach its mouth) with three very sharp claws would be useless? Look at this picture.   http://research.amnh.org/vertpaleo/feather18.jpg   Those don\'t look like totally useless masses to me. The problem is that you imagine that wings sprouted from nothing and must have been useless until they were fully formed as you think they should be. That\'s not the case. They didn\'t spring from nothing as useless masses. They were the front limbs, with quite impressively clawed, grasping hands. They could have even been used for climbing, as is the case of hoatzins that have claws on their wings until they get their primary flight feathers. The could have been used for grasping food that they were able to catch because of the speed assist from imprefectly formed wings.   You propose yet another "I just can\'t imagine how it happened so it must not be true" creationist argument.'
+p8873
+aS'And would you care to tell us just what those "official ideological goals" are and where we might find a certifiable copy of them?'
+p8874
+aS'And you, on the other hand, because you are not educated in science in general, and evolutionary theory (why the quotation marks?) specifically, are qualified to correct those of us who spent years in study of the topic.'
+p8875
+aS'How informative.'
+p8876
+aS'Well he can defend his tax difficulties by claiming he is a creationist and thus cannot be trusted with quantitative processes involving a bit of mathematics. Then again he can tell IRS that GOD will provide and they should contact Bush to get Gods cell number. I am sure that IRS, GOD, and Hovind can work it all out.'
+p8877
+aS"Gee, Jo, you really should have read your sources. There is one part in here about the French 'navy' and Churchill you really should read"
+p8878
+aS'And the Violence Policy Center is somehow more trustworthy?'
+p8879
+aS"Well, you're writing from an embryo's point of view, when an embryo doesn't even have a point of view. It would be like writing from a rock's point of view."
+p8880
+aS"Here's some advice, if you're going to try and crack on me, make your 'jokes' (I'll be nice and call them that) less passive and more active, grammar-wise.   Crim-   A definition is the meaning of word that someone created using their own opinions. Is there a difference?   And, a circle could be called a circle in the English language, but I could make up a new language in which a circle would be called a square and a square a circle."
+p8881
+aS'And ends with the woman, whose body is the one having to endure the pregnancy.'
+p8882
+aS'Oh they are? Thats strange... I could not find where exactly they stand on any of thier numerous websites, just more restrictions... And the old HCI was not "moderate"'
+p8883
+aS'probably because this is an abortion forum and not a forum about the Iraq War..not only that, there is no parallel.'
+p8884
+aS'BWAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH![/quote]So you are saying that my DNA reflects the fact that I live in Texas?'
+p8885
+aS'So SS. Please explain it all to me. Please show that you are not conclusion jumping and making unwarranted extrapolation based on poor understanding of the material. In other words, show me that you understand by explaining the research to me.   Thanks.'
+p8886
+aS'Funny. It is you who have "abso-freaking-lutely" no qualms about forcing gays and lesbians to pony up dough for Mr and Mrs. John Q Taxpayers marriage and divorce, all the whie denying them the chance to follow the same course as Mr. and Mrs. John Q. Taxpayer.   You my friend are a complete hypocrite. Either give them marriage or quite taxing them to help yours.   On another topic, I find it sad that you were ever given the position of moderator with your hateful and dishonest posts like this one. Very glad that it was stripped from you.'
+p8887
+aS'You make the supposition that before the NRA got to a politician that he/she was in a state of purity before.   Q: How can you tell when a politican is telling a lie?   A: When their lips move.'
+p8888
+aS'So the "Origin of Species" has more information for theistic evolutionists than the Bible does?? Does theistic evolution believe in Satan?'
+p8889
+aS'You have to be off for more than 4 days and after that I would get the princely sum of \xc2\xa379.15 per week..hardly worth having.   Unlike teachers I cannot stay at home and get paid when it snows too.'
+p8890
+aS"Really? I don't think you know what you are talking about. Please provide evidence to back your claim. Thanks."
+p8891
+aS'Is that the entire Pro-Choice objection? Is that the whole Pro-Choice argument? Does it really boil down to a question of pregnancy versus death, rather than slavery versus death? If so, I am Pro-Life.'
+p8892
+aS"Just another example of using a verse meant for personal use and applying it to wars. Sorry, just doesn't work that way."
+p8893
+aS'Unfortunately, Michael Moore is a XXXXX. While a thousand gun control laws couldn\'t prevent 9-11, if there weren\'t ANY gun control laws, 9-11 would surely have been preventable. But, Michael Moore, being a XXXXX, would never be able to draw such a logical conclusion. It isn\'t "liberal" enough for his tastes.'
+p8894
+aS'Since always?'
+p8895
+aS"Just imagine Noah's checklist! There."
+p8896
+aS'Well Nozz. I hear Canada or Mexico are looking for a few good(did I say good?)   men.   Kind of a dirty trick to pull on them though.'
+p8897
+aS'Oh really, so blowing yourself and a bunch of other innocent people up in the name of Allah is a "great teaching"?'
+p8898
+aS"Again your failure to understand what science is and how it works. Whatever your apostle tells you, science can't deny that something you may have seen is true. It can deny that it isn't science if it cannot be explained by naturalistic observation. Most especially, if the observation can't be repeated by another, then it isn't science. Science can make no assertion as to what you saw. You may think it is wonderful, but LSD had that effect.   How strange that you think that your emotions are scientific. Actually, it's sad."
+p8899
+aS'When is science going to get started on the book of Exodus? Job? Proverbs?'
+p8900
+aS"What illogical tripe.   The above is factually not true.   It's also the garbage that the Word of Faith movement hangs on to get people to conform to their message.   Seriously, I act like a 13 year old quite often...I only WISH I'd become one...simply becasue youth is wasted on the young.   I also act like a God. Flexing my might and power on a whim.   I'm still waiting for adoration and worship.   There is no 'act' there either IS or IS NOT."
+p8901
+aS'Well... someone hasn\'t been following the campaigns for the so-called "protection of marriage" amendments, federal or state.'
+p8902
+aS"Yes, because although we trust our military with anti tank missiles, .50 machine guns, artillery, fighter planes, cruise missiles and even nuclear weapons, god knows you wouldn't want them parading around in public with a glock under their jacket unless they have renewed their permit in person.   I would have thought that people would have learned their lesson from the federal assault weapon ban. It was expensive to enforce, a major sore spot for a fairly large percentage of the population, and had no real positive effect, mainly due to the fact that it addressed no identifiable problem.   You expect such things from a liberal stronghold like california, a state with high crime that is always on the verge of bankruptcy, out of control labor costs, where they can't even keep the power on all the time becuase their environmental regulations are so rediculously stringent that the fiscal realities of building new powerplants are soo terrible that nobody would even consider it.   I thought people were more intelligent in your new state, George."
+p8903
+aS'I see you Americans deal as loosely with the French and Spanish languages, as you do with English!   Surely it is something like Viva Libertad , or Vive la Liberte, but Viva La Liberty         ?????   Leo'
+p8904
+aS"So lets ban cars... They kill people... And think all the money could go to public transportation. Also we should ban baseball bats as thats the obvious next step in weaponry... Don't forget archery... Can't have the subjects have any of that...   Since we are taking away all these weapons to coddle the masses, Will the government be disarming too?   I see a need for both kinds of weapons as a freeman."
+p8905
+aS"What about speculative and theoretical sciences? Is a circle 'real'?"
+p8906
+aS'Bertvan: Does this self-organization force \xe2\x80\x9cwhip up\xe2\x80\x9d complex features intelligently and purposefully? Or does it \xe2\x80\x9cwhip them up\xe2\x80\x9d by some unknown deterministic process in which creativity is somehow achieved by accident?'
+p8907
+aS"Your god is also the god of deceit. Why else would he erase all evidence of such a flood? Why erase the bones from the animals that must have died as the emigrated from the arks resting place? Answer those two and I'll have lots more"
+p8908
+aS"It also isn't a baby yet either. It is called a fetus."
+p8909
+aS"You may not have intended to, but you've given your carte blanche support for a woman to do what ever with her she wishes, with regards to her family - and you'd stick out of it, regardless.   Also, interestingly, there's no man in this 'idealy free' family of yours."
+p8910
+aS'Forgive me for laughing; no, not really ha, ha, ha ha ha   Could it be that people here as well as Canada and the rest of the world has figured out your infantile "grading system of States" is a complete sham and your very reason for existing is but an anti-constitutional farce and has lost any claims you have or will make? You stand alone now brady, with simply a few still clinging to the false hope of having others pay for your failures and unConstitutional stance so you can sit on your hands while you keep harping on overturning the 2A.'
+p8911
+aS'You ask others for their opinion, and then refuse to listen when it\'s offered.   The truth is that you don\'t see the analogy as valid.   We do.   We see a situation where, like blacks before, people disapprove of a group of people and want to segregate one group from the other.   Sometimes, they refuse to offer any alternative.   Sometimes, they offer a separate alternative.   That argument cuts both ways.   The question comes up regarding what\'s YOUR beef on the issue?   Why are you so insistent on maintaining two separate groups?   Is it because you want to reserve marriage as "prestigous" whereby gays are kept out?   Under interracial marriage, no black person was prohibited from marrying either.   Should people have been satisfied with interracial couples being classified as "civil unions"?   Today, we recognize that racism is wrong.   Yet some people still persist with homophobia. They fail to have a historical context on the real meaning of the methodology they recommend.   Frankly, that\'s like saying "You can\'t be Jewish, but you can pick any sect of Christianity you want to. You can\'t wear a star of david, but you can wear a cross.   So that\'s *equal*"...   You\'re saying we can marry HETEROSEXUALLY, so HOMOSEXUALS must pretend that\'s equal???   Makes no sense...   If I call somebody "male", that restricts no rights from them.   It doesn\'t require they go to a separate place to get their rights.   And quite frankly, insisting on keeping one definition FOR A RIGHT (at the exclusion of gays) is "satisfying the ego" of the homophobic group.   "attack on the definition of marriage"?   Why is it an "attack" to include gay couples in as married?   Would it be an "attack" on something for blacks to not have to be segregated from whites?'
+p8912
+aS"Did I claim you did start the thread? Vitroilic hatred, nope pity is the word you are needing there. No I merely pointed out your style of debate. Which I noticed you made no attempt to say it was wrong. Hence guilty as charged simone.   Yep that would be the left's method for free speech. Speech you don't want to hear is banned. On the flip side any conservative speech needs a liberal counterpoint. Am I right simone baby?"
+p8913
+aS'I think this is pretty much common sense. I think some study is in order, though. Everybody....put a sign in your window that says "This is a gun free home" and we will see if the incidents of robberies goes up among group memebers.'
+p8914
+aS"So it's the scientific community that sets up communication within a society, and then the dumb old common peasants come along and screw it all up? Hahaha \xe2\x80\x93 sorry but I'm not convinced."
+p8915
+aS"You are FINALLY catching on. This is why we go to war against folks like Saddam regarding WMDs, or declare sanctions against Syria and Irans, but we do not go to war with the french or the british over WMD's. WMD's are inanimate objects, and we all know that inanimate objects are incapable of waging wars. We also know that instable governments and tyrannical leaders are fully capable of waging war, and have done so in the past.   It is good to see some of the GG's finally coming over to the side of comon sense!"
+p8916
+aS"It surely doesn't sound like he's a Nazi to me, but then again, I don't suffer from paranoid delusions either."
+p8917
+aS"And who would pick the 'some'? Perhaps you also believe they should be placed on Ritilin...for their own protection...because their teachers (without medical training) diagnose the infamous ADD demon in them.   Not to get off topic too far, some teachers evidently have trouble recognizing the difference between students that can't seem to pay attention and themselves (the teachers) being in dire need of coming across as interesting.   What makes you think teachers or parents could ever become adept at recognizing who needs to put on birth control? Shall we wait 'til one becomes pregnant? Shall we offer a survey of sexual activities?...to what age group?"
+p8918
+aS'Oh yeah, like that hasn\'t been tried before /sarcasm It darn sure isn\'t about crime control. No doubt some nefarious excuse to farther control the people and attempt to charge user fees to discourage a right. No doubt sinjin will approve so "they" can match fingerprints and type of ammo to the DROS registration file?   The early birds get the worm After June, the best spots may already be taken and kalifornia laws will be shot down and they will be left with just what they claimed to want...nothing economical, an end to registration, people carrying loaded guns and buying cases of ammo out of State (no tax) while crying wa wa wa wa wa!   Don\'t forget Jerry Brown will probably have some changes of his own. Seems he is more pro rights and 2A than \'da terminator\'.'
+p8919
+aS'Then their arguments are based on sheer ignorance.'
+p8920
+aS'gooey cute as this reads, how is this relevant to the philosophy discourse?'
+p8921
+aS"You were asked to give us your explanation of evolution. So far you've just regurgitated creationist arguments against it, without showing that you actually understand what you're arguing against. But instead of trying to answer the question that was asked of you, you just spat out some more quotes. The least you could have done was to use quotes that explained evolution as you percieve it, but they're not even on topic, going on about morality and atheism! You continue to confirm your ignorance for us."
+p8922
+aS"Oh - so you don't want to force me through pregnancy at any cost to me? You will let me make what decision is best for me? You will actually realize that I am in the best position to know?"
+p8923
+aS'Your stated stereotype of the person in the story is racist. It\'s a racist stereotype and you know it.   You\'re so entrenched in your own world and nothing outside of it, you wouldn\'t know the "truth" if came into your face like a lemon meringue pie.   Indeed the court\'s reasoning may have been as racist as your own.   Indeed, the article describes how the court\'s reasoning was even a surprise to the police officers\' attorney because it was so out of line with what is expected of conduct during arrests.   She was not violent and she had an obvious health condition.   Whatever you think about what she was intending to do or not -- though she communicated quite clearly -- is rather irrelevant given the offense and those surrounding circumstances.   I bet this is your opinion ANY time the story concerns a black defendent and a white police officer. Because you\'re a racist.   But it is o.k. for them to repeatedly break the law like yourself speeding again and again, as long as they sign the ticket.   What hogwash.   Actually, there is, my poor addle-minded friend. Indeed, you can argue that she was even exercising her responsibility as a citizen with more civic-mindedness than many because she non-violently and patiently refused to sign the ticket.   She has a right not to sign.   As H.D. Thoreau said to Emerson in jail, when Emerson said to him, "Henry why are you here?" -- Henry answered, "Ralph, why are you not?"   LOL. Well that\'s so nice of the copy who let you know. And that\'s very interesting -- "every time" -- Archangel. How many times have you been stopped? And for going how fast? I\'m sure it was a lot more than 35 mph!   And you have the nerve to talk about "responsibility" or how this woman was a jerk?   Or to call me names?   Dearest, I never speed because I take my responsibilities as a citizen so seriously, and i have never received a speeding ticket.   Were you driving under the influence as well?   How many lives did you put at risk, Archangel?   What pomposity! What hypocrisy!'
+p8924
+aS"Yep. They're free to marry a member of the opposite sex just like any other American."
+p8925
+aS"Really? I wasn't aware that the definition had changed. I do know that a definition was formulated as part of the modern synthesis back in the 1930s and 40s. That is the definition I learned some decades ago, it is the one I have always used, and it is the one that I still find in modern biology texts. It is also the one that all biologists that I know use, and of course the meaning definition of what evolutionary biologists mean when they talk about evolution should be determined by evolutionary biologists themselves. It seems kind of an empty exercise to invent a definition that isn't what evolutionary biologists mean and then argue against it in an effort to disprove evolution.   Let me put it this way, do you think that it would be acceptable in a discussion of Christianity if I were allowed to invent my own definition of what a Christian means when he talks about salvation?   So please, please tell us about some of these changing defintions. Like I said, I've been using the same one for over 40 years and wasn't aware that it had changed."
+p8926
+aS'So god is unnatural?'
+p8927
+aS'Is there a defined number of posts he could make in the other threads so that you would consider them "finished"?'
+p8928
+aS'You forgot one. For trying to bring eugenics to the US. We wouldn\'t want those "poor negros" reproducing now would we?'
+p8929
+aS'You just say this because you want to murder helpless wromb-trapped human beings. You cannot just say you personally believe something in a debate.'
+p8930
+aS'Or, given that this is about feasts, a waist is a terrible thing to mind.'
+p8931
+aS'How often to you poke your nose into monkey genitals in order to know that?'
+p8932
+aS"I don't have to say anything here, your post made it sound sick enough. Yes, freedaom at all cost. Isn't that the theory this country was founded by?"
+p8933
+aS'And here ladies and gentlemen we have the evidence of why I am justified in calling the likes of "stormboy" an XXXXX. The guy tries to discuss science when he is so utterly lacking in basic science that he thinks that the earth spins to "keep[s] the oceans from falling off towards the sun"...   stormboy, there is a thing called gravity: it is what "keep[s] the oceans from falling off towards the sun".   Now please go away and get an education, then when you have even the faintest idea of what you are talking about (which you currently do not), come back and attempt to debate. It will be for your own good as you are just making yourself look a prat by staying here.'
+p8934
+aS"Oh, just come right out and say it, women are subhuman, all they are is wombs.   Come on, let's show the true colors of the pro-fetus movement."
+p8935
+aS'oh brother.. so what if a minority of americans wanted to legalize murder.   this is rediculous.'
+p8936
+aS"Oh! mememe! I have an idea!   The museum staff hire (or possibly abduct) a few evolutionists and put them in stocks. The visiting kids then come to the gallery to give Mum and Dad a break for an hour and get to ask the scientists questions about the origin of the earth and why fossils are different from things alive today. Each time an evolutionist gives an answer based on science they get pelted with the leftover veg from the dino pit lunchtime display. This way the kids learn an important lesson in how to deal with scientists as well as being good for the environment by putting all that veg the dinos wouldn't eat to good use! Yay!"
+p8937
+aS'The comment of someone with an IQ of about 48.   Ray M.'
+p8938
+aS"Excuse me, I stand corrected. For 'pretend' please substitute 'wrongly believe'."
+p8939
+aS"Yes, and those apartments are frequently broken into, in the broad daylight, because criminals know that they won't be harmed."
+p8940
+aS'Oh dear, you are one of those people: a "twit absolutist" as you might say. Please keep your silly "ism" labels to yourself.   "Moral relativist" is like "rectangular square": it\'s a tautology.'
+p8941
+aS"Quick question -   What particular qualification of Dr. Olson's makes his opinion on the subject superior to all others?   Given your fondness for posting this essay of his (in his entirety) as your ultimate justification, that should be an easy one for you.   Waxy"
+p8942
+aS"People make mistakes (excepting some pro-evolutionists who respond with anger and blame others of 'twisting their words'.)"
+p8943
+aS'The point is that these laws against cheaply manufactured handguns are no more than economic restrictions on gun ownership. This is similar to old english laws which established actual economic requirements for owning weapons. Gun accidents happening due only to poor construction are rare. This is just another form of people control, keeping weapons out of the hands of the poor so as to lessen their importance in politics. "Screw them, they can\'t do anything about it."'
+p8944
+aS'Just to be pedantic, a better analogy would be: "If you are here, why do you have brothers and sisters?"'
+p8945
+aS'which is pretty much the same thing. The majority of representatives get their way. The representatives are elected by a majority. Being overally picky about it gets you no where...we pretty much have a majority rules nation.   And we still haven\'t settled the question about how you think you can impose your belief on others but I can\'t. The "convention" idea didn\'t work, the idea that you aren\'t imposing a belief on others didn\'t work, so what is next?'
+p8946
+aS'Let me try explaining this another way.   According to the logic presented in the original article:   Gun Owners : discrimination by gun control laws :: Serial Rapists : discrimination by anti-rape laws   You see, it\'s the RELATIONSHIP that I\'m comparing. That\'s what an analogy is. I\'m NOT comparing the gun owners to the serial rapists, but rather the RELATIONSHIP between discrimination and gun owners as presented in the original article and the RELATIONSHIP between discimination and serial rapists.   What do you mean "my ultimate agenda"? I want regulation of the gun trade as there is regulation of the trade of every product with specific control laws that apply to each product. Does this mean a complete ban? No. Let\'s compare this to a drivers license. Yes I realize that\'s not a product, but it is regulated similar to the way guns should be regulated. It varies from state to state, but there is typically a driver\'s ed class, driving with an instructor, and a driving test. A person must pass all of these things before recieving a license. A person must also meet other qualifications such as vision requirements. Then, in my state, when a person recieves his or her license, it is only a provisional license, meaning that he or she cannot drive between midnight and 5 a.m. This lasts for eighteen months unless there are any moving violations, in which case the period starts over. These are all reasonable restrictions. These ideas can be applied to gun control. There could be gun training and gun tests. Background information such as prior criminal activities should be checked. Guns should not be made available at unregulated events such as gun shows. These sort of regulations are also similar to those on prescription drugs. A person must have a prescription from a real doctor, and he or she can only purchase or pick up the medicine from certified locations.   This is clearly not a fringe view since a large number of people support gun control. You may disagree with this view, but it clearly is not a fringe view. Nor is it a sign of mental instability.   The constitutionality of gun control is clearly debatable. It\'s not exactly simple. You can\'t ignore "well regulate." Even GunCite, a pro gun website, says, " \'To put in good order\' is the correct interpretation of well regulated, signifying a well disciplined, trained, and functioning militia." Disciplining, training. That sounds like controlling. And if it was such a simple constitutional issue, why hasn\'t the Supreme Court made a difinitive ruling on it? If anything, it has ruled in favor of gun control, saying in the Miller case that "The Second Amendment must be interpreted and applied with a view to its purpose of rendering effective the Militia." Regardless, the constitutionality of a law does not make it wrong or right. Slavery was once allowed under the Constitution, but that did not make it wrong or right.   I never labeled your view as anarchistic. I said that UNLESS you are an anarchist, you are not in support of COMPLETE, 100%, ABSOLUTE freedom. What objective means are you using to determine that gun ownerships is a basic civil right?   First you assume that since I have liberal views on this subject, I agree with the actions of all other liberals, and second you assume that all other liberals commit the same actions. I have not once mentioned "saturday night special." My laws are meant to target all gun crime and gun accidents. Should we not have laws against gun crime (not laws against guns) because most gun violence is minority on minority. Sould we not have murder laws because a disproportionate number of murders are commited by minorities?'
+p8947
+aS"Seriously?   That's your reasoning?   By such logic, swimming with sharks means that humans always have coexisted with sharks, including the ancient ones that preceded the dinosaurs. By such logic, since humans can coexist with insects, we must have been around during the carboniferous period."
+p8948
+aS'So now you want to demonstrate that you are also ignorant of the fossil record?'
+p8949
+aS"Actually when you read every thing you have to rationalize (lie) what God actually did, for God was done with everything then started again. THe stories don't parallel each other they intersect."
+p8950
+aS"Wouldn't it be wonderful if, in this male-centered world, drugs were designed to be women-friendly, especially pregnant women-friendly?"
+p8951
+aS'Yippie doo! A 23 year old quote from an ornithologist defending his point of view. And his point of view has (or had) merit. But since then, several feathered dinosaurs (not birds) have been found. It has also been shown that the difference between a scale and a feather may be no more than a single point mutation. (You do know what I\'m talking about, don\'t you Calli? You do know what a "point mutation" is, don\'t you?) Bottom line is that there may be no intermediate between scales and feathers. A single point mutation produces feathers from scales. Various kinds of feathers require only further mutation.'
+p8952
+aS"So, we on this board aren't receptive to your proselytizing? Sorry about that. This particular forum is intended to be a scientific discussion, based on logic and evidence. We certainly don't want to waste your time. The door is over there. I find your dismissive, superior attitude to be offensive, to be honest., so I can't say I'll miss you.   But should you ever want to discuss evolution and creation in terms of actual science you will be welcome to return."
+p8953
+aS'Recall I mentioned your use of hyperbole earlier? its in that sentence as well'
+p8954
+aS'At your service:   Comparison   I could\'ve just circled the whole thing, but this makes it clearer. Plus it\'s overall body shape is "fatter"'
+p8955
+aS"What's your definition of pure?"
+p8956
+aS'Yeah, a license to murder the unborn...........'
+p8957
+aS"Why do 14 bus loads, 500 SCIU members, need 2 Police squad cars from DC to protect them from 1 Home owner?   Fishy? I don't think so! I think the COPS were there to Intimidate the one home owner, just like SEIU was there to do! Cops! Of all things, they used Washington DC COPS! Cops!   No? What am I missing?   Makes one wonder if things got out of hand and the protesters started throwing rocks through the window, and if the terrified home owner would have stepped out with a fire arm, am I wrong to think that the DC police would have shot the home owner? Seriously What the heck gives? Cops! Part of the angry mob?   If nothing else, 500 people trashed this guys lawn! That is for sure.   Am I missing something here, or am I correct to think that we have totally degenerated into Chicago style intimidation politics? See the video for reasons why I believe this."
+p8958
+aS"So if genesis can't explain some things then it is false?   Ok, genesis, and all you theologians out there, a quick question off the top of my head.   Using only scripture, please explain why dinosaurs are extinct."
+p8959
+aS"Don't like it when the person you're arguing against can be as sarcastic as you are, huh? I understand, I get these types of whines all the time.   thistownwilleat-"
+p8960
+aS"I believe murder is wrong, and there shouldn't be any of it in a perfect world, but i'm not going to force my morality down your throat and force you to abide to MY principals while demanding you abandon your own.   But it's not about me, it's about the person being killed.   Think about it."
+p8961
+aS"I think I hear a bell dinging!! Ding! Ding! Let the round begin. Your giving me the invite, and I'm willing to take it.   Now I'm not going to make any comments on your ex, or whatever he is to you. Because I don't know him enough to assume anything about him. But I will make general statements on the effects of gay marriages on children.   I have seen so many documents, on teens the are confused about their sexual orintation, because of living i the house with their gay parents. On girl wondered if she was gay because her mother was with another woman. She felt that was normal behavior. And started to concider being with girls herself. But was confused when she started to like men. She actually thought that liking men was abnormal. Until others told her it is normal to like men.   A boy had almost the same experience, he did not know if he too should like men, because his father did. Often he would fight back desires for females, because he thought he needed to be with men. Not only that by he was ridculed by classmates because of his father being gay.   Alot of children endure harassment because of living in a house made up of parents of the same sex. Just because it did not happen to your son, dose not mean that it dose not happen. And your experience is only a fraction of 1% of the experiences that children go through because of having gay parents. It is impossible to say that it dose not happen. If it dose not happen to a few, then thats fine. But the majority suffers, and that far outweighs the few that don't suffer because of having gay parents."
+p8962
+aS'Perfect. A creationists caught repeating the same refuted arguments on different forums. Resistance is met, run like a coward to another forum.'
+p8963
+aS'So long as they do not contain my DNA, yes.'
+p8964
+aS'So I pray to chance every night before I go to bed?'
+p8965
+aS"Reasonable gun regulation is an oxymoron like military intelligence. You mean like Bill Ayers (sic) and his wife or Carl Rowen? Wait my bad they aren't from the right."
+p8966
+aS"You think it was Me? You are yet again, confused. I don't even know what a DROS is. Department of Registration Ohio State? That would be my best guess, seeing that I am from Ohio!"
+p8967
+aS'90% of the people in the world are Christians?   XXXXX-'
+p8968
+aS"Marilyn - I'll look at your site if you look at mine...   http://www.nra.org/"
+p8969
+aS"If science deals with how information is gathered, different ways of analyzing, and different hypothesis, then it involves worldviews. The base for the worldview of a sizable part of the population should not be excluded. Maybe in Saddam Hussien's Iraq, maybe in communist Russia, but not in the United States."
+p8970
+aS"Amen !! Punish the whore !   If she would have just had the kid she would discover what we all know ... That the child would have been loved and protected given a nurturing home by her because she isn't really smart enough to know what she wants.   She MUST have the kid , when it arrives all will be well !! We just know it !"
+p8971
+aS'oh please dont give me that XXXX... its so great that you can try to turn that whole statement and point at me being at fault but that in and of itself shows you are at fault because you think that without your way the world would cease. Honestly, the world has lived without gay marriage its whole existence.... so why implement it now?? SHouldnt that say something about the human race when it steeps so low to want to call homosexuals married couples?'
+p8972
+aS'To Clive14:   Darwin never produced a "Theory of Human Evolution".   R--i--g--h--t. And I\'m a Shakespearean act--o--r. Darwin\'s book titled "On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life" sure seems to me to suggest that he had an idea on the evolution of man. Darwinian evolution was (and still is) inherently a racist philosophy, teaching that different groups or "races" of people evolved at different times and rates, so some groups are more like their ape-like ancestors than others. Darwin believed, for instance, that the Australian Aboriginals were considered the missing links between an ape-like ancestor and the rest of mankind". Many indigenous peoples died because of Darwinian evolution, so don\'t give me such rubbish that Darwin never did a theory of human evolution.   Darwin\'s evolutionary scheme went something like this:   Evolutionary ancestor --> Australoid --> Negroid --> Mongoloid --> Caucasoid.   Perhaps you best go home and check up on your own theory before you post such a remark. And people think that creationists are mis-informed!   This is true of the unscientific use of the word "theory". In science, "theory" is equivalent to "fact". There is a theory of gravity for example. Is gravity just guesswork therefore?   Once again, falsehood. If a theory is equivalent to fact, than why do they have two different things. In science, using you above example, gravity is a fact (I don\'t think that there is a theory of gravity, at least it is not in the HSC Physics course when we were studying it!). By definition, a theory is an explanation of observed facts and laws. It is supported by experiments upon which it is based, and is confirmed by experiments designed to test predictions based on the explanation. Now where in that definition is the word fact either used or implied? Now where, a theory is like a story to explain observed facts and phenomenon. A theory does not mean the idea is "fact". It is just a story used to explain how some observed phenomenon may have either came into existence, or why and how it behaves the way it does. You mis-interpretation of scientific terms is noted.   I disagree. Faith is believing something to be true regardless of the evidence. People have faith in the Bible. People do not (or should not) have faith in evolution.   I agree with your definition of faith. Bible believing creationists must take it by faith that there is a God, and that the Bible is the Inspired Word of God. Evolutionists (for the most part, i.e. most are atheistic), however, must take it by blind faith that there is no God and that the Bible is not the Inspired Word of God.   Your last sentence struck me as to how brainwashed some (or many people) are in the lie of evolution (microorganism into people evolution). For one, evolutionists must take it by blind faith that stuff has evolved, i.e. there is very few fossils that support this notion. The fossil record dismisses and is a crushing critque of Darwinian evolution. For example, Dr Ronald R. West (paleoecology and geology) stated in his article "Paleoecology and uniformitarianism" which was published in Compass, vol.45, May 1968, p. 216:   "Contrary to what most scientists write, the fossil record does not support the Darwinian theory of evolution [microorganism to man] because it is this theory (there are several) which we use to interpret the fossil record. By doing so we are guilty of circular reasoning if we then say the fossil record supports this theory."   In addition to this, Dr David B. Kitts (School of Geology and Geophysics, Department of History of Science) in his article "Paleontology and evolutionary theory" in Evolution, vol. 28, September 1974, p. 467 says the following:   "Despite the bright promise that paleonotlogy provides a means of "seeing" evolution, it has presented some nasty difficulties for evolutionists the most notorious of which is the presence of "gaps" in the fossil record. Evolution requires intermediate forms between species and paleontology does not provide them. The gaps must therefore be a contingent feature of the record."   What they are saying is that the fossil record does not show evolution, but we will continue to believe it even though we have no proof of the theory of evolution (i.e. microorganism to man evolution).   Evolution has been proven. Creation has been disproven. This whole argument is over stubbornness on the part of people with faith who cannot bring themselves to accept that evolution has been proven and creation has been disproven.   Four words that always gets an evolutionist into trouble, "Evolution has been proven". If you refer to what you call "micro-evolution" (to which creationists call "Varriation within a "kind"") than I would agree with you. Species change all of the time, but it is important to know that the species never get more complex, they are constantly losing gentic information (i.e. DNA) and becoming less complex. With natural selection, things lose an ability that will enable a species to survive in an environment (usually by the way of mutations). So since varriation within a kind (or micro-evolution - always a loss of DNA) has been proved, this is also further evidence to the creationary model. The macro-evolution has not been proven. Nor does the fossil record bear out many evidences for this, as many leading evolutionary scientists have (or are comming) to realise.   Creation has not been disproven, as you falsely claim. Otherwise, the evolutionists here on this forum would be able to hammer the creationist arguments, and thus far they have not. This fact alone is evidence against you. They only gain an advantage when we start having silly debates on things that I do not know much on, nor have studied up on, such as geological features for an example. We have the same rocks, so of course the evolutionists are going to claim that in many cases I am wrong - as they have a different interpretation to me. Or they have a different story to explain who a land structure got there to me. Both stories are based on the evidence, so it is hard to get through to one another. Sadly, time restricts me from continuing.'
+p8973
+aS'This topic was discussed in another thread. Kelvin said that-   "If it were not the private ownership of guns in 1941, you would be speaking Japanese if you live on the Westcoast, German if you live on the Eastcoast."   Urban Legend. It should be illegal for women to have sex.'
+p8974
+aS'um... gee... its killing a baby... now.. before 8 weeks, its not in the form of a human being.. at 4 weeks, its a fish.. at 5.. its a rodent.. but after 8.. its in the shape of a human... there is no way around that fact.'
+p8975
+aS'All sin undermines society, including illicit gay sex sin. Or have you forgotten Sodom and Gomorrah? Coming to a San Francisco bath house near you.'
+p8976
+aS"I didn't mention evolution in this topic.   You did."
+p8977
+aS"And the resemblance of the bill of a platypus to that of a duck is superficial. You don't actually try to learn the basic facts about anything before you speak out, do you?"
+p8978
+aS"I'd be pretty dumb to buy something from someone who doesn't even believe in what they're selling. Those teachers may teach it, but they don't believe in it."
+p8979
+aS'The ATF declared both .30 cal M2 AP and 5.56mm M855 Ball (w/steel penetrator) to be "non-AP" rounds.   For those of you that have a problem with law abiding citizens having and using "AP" ammo....wake up! We ARE law abiding so what are you worried about.....or do you think I don\'t "need" it? If so..who are you to tell me what I "need"?   I have a rifle match next month...I think I\'ll go load up some AP for it since AP tends to shoot better in my M1 than regular Ball. :D'
+p8980
+aS'So taking peoples rights away is an american value? I think I will push for legislation to make cancer surgery illegal. After all cancer cells are human life too and with modern medical tech they could become a human being also.'
+p8981
+aS'Actually yes, but not for the purposes of ilegal search or seisure, I have active duty military friends. They drop by all the time. Obviously your great lack of friends makes that idea hard to understand.'
+p8982
+aS"So you support allowing a 10 y/o to buy an Uzi and carry it into a federal court house or school as long as he does not commit a crime? Wow.   And your logic about taking criminals off the street and then having no gun control concerns would be perfect...if we had a finite number of criminals. We don't. New murderers and theives and carjackers and dope dealers and bank robbers and child rapists are born every day."
+p8983
+aS'Why you quoted me is questionable. What I posted was merely a series of mathematical equations proving that Hovind is completely full of ****. How you consider mathematical equations "mockery" I don\'t know, but more likely, you did not bother to watch the video. Instead, in your normal fashion, you simply ASSUMED what you wanted to believe and then went from there rather then actually looking at what it was and what it had to say.   Your post more accurately is towards the link that AA posted in defense of his beliefs (yet failed to realize was satirizing those beliefs). Furthermore, I\'m not an atheist even though your poor definition wants me to be.'
+p8984
+aS'Read THIS slower:'
+p8985
+aS'That money will never be paid. "Doctor" Hovind (his doctorate is from an unaccredited diploma mill) has phrased his offer in such a way that it is impossible to get it.   Numbers 1-4 have absolutely nothing to do with evolution, but gullable people fall for it. Number 1 is actually impossible to prove.   Hovind probably doesn\'t even have $250,000. In 1996 he declared bankruptcy, and there\'s no reason to believe that his financial situation has suddenly improved. He claims that "a wealthy friend", whom he refuses to name, has the money. The committee that is supposed to evaluate claims is similarly anonymous, but he has hinted that it\'s filled exclusively with creationists, who are certainly not unbiased.   Read about Kent Hovind. He really is a worthless piece of scum.'
+p8986
+aS'That "somebody" was a Jesuit priest, the idea met some initial resistance because of it\'s religious overtones. But the overwhelming evidence in favor of it carried the day. You should study some history too.'
+p8987
+aS"Try the link. You've done the 'name calling', at least you could be honest about what you are doing."
+p8988
+aS"That's great for women!   What about the rights of their children?"
+p8989
+aS"Well, it does take some scientific knowledge to understand the evidence for evolution. One doesn't expect Creationists to possess it."
+p8990
+aS'Is it correct to assume that in the presence of the precursors of the standard genetic code (e.g. intermediates of glucose degradation and the citric acid cycle), the intimate relationship between these molecules resulted in the inevitable organization of the genetic code (global optimum of the system)?   Articles 5-7   These articles discuss fascinating mathematical representation of the genetic code. For example, in article 6 a representation of the genetic code as a six\xe2\x80\x93dimensional Boolean hypercube is proposed.   Abstract:'
+p8991
+aS"President Obama has correctly characterized the Bill of Rights is a list of negative Rights against government.   The point is, that the only rights that the government, and or any anti-gunner, or department has, is the infringements we grant them through laws etc.   Taking the info in this article at face value. What was a legal practice to do just yesterday landed this guy in a jackpot for not knowing what or how the Govt. is going to interpret the law to mean today. This is a common problem with, and not to directly pick on the ATF, but gun dealers complain about this all the time. EVEN an FBI agent himself cannot predict, nor curry a favorable interpretation.   What kind of country and legal system do we want? Surely you can see that this kind of stuff is not in ANY WAY Shape of Form, fair to do to a Right that our Constitution says is Inalienable. Or to a person who was an impeccable reputation.   Would you like to be treated in this manner?   The article says, what he did is not illegal, but in the hands of someone with an axe to grind, maybe they didn't like him, or maybe the prosecutor is Anti-gun etc, lands this guy in a jackpot!   Now can you see the problem with this?   I know lets apply all of this to computers! We will just make up any law as we go. How'd that be?"
+p8992
+aS'When talking to a person professing Christianity, the Bible is binding. If the Bible advises that abortion is murder, then it is so regardless of what the secular systems of the day have to say about it.   When talking with one accepting the principles of Christianity, the premiere of those being that the Bible is binding, the existence of the soul is not up for debate.   The position of Bassman, I believe, would be that there is no legitimate right to terminate a pregnancy, especially from the stand-point of the Bible, which of course, is binding to those professing Christianity.'
+p8993
+aS'Good idea!'
+p8994
+aS'No, they do not. I know several people in England who posess weapons the bought on the street. How are the gun laws in england working when you can buy a machine gun?   Before the ban, england had lower numbers when it came to firearms related deaths. They also had lower crime numbers. The sociological differences between England and the United States are not be be discounted.   It is interesting to note that crime rates in England seem to be rising now that the gun ban has been around for a while. There is even a movement by public officials to arm police officers in response to the rising rate of violent crime. There isa n article and debate about it right here on the forums.   The biggest difference lately in the statistics in England in the US is not the numbers, it is how they are recorded. If a guy is confronted by three people outside a bar and shot to death, but the gus get off during trial, it is still recorded in America s a three person homocide. In england, it is NOT recorded. I get the London Times, and they have done several articles accusing th British government of manipulating crime figures. I think that if we in America only recorded solved crimes in our crime statistics, we might become one of the most cime free contries in the world!'
+p8995
+aS"Well, the claim isn't that they were identical, just that they preceded Jesus and were very similar."
+p8996
+aS'So what we have here is a lie, based on a distortion, which is itself a fallback position from a fallback position from a fallback position from an evidence-free made-up graph about the magnetic age of the earth. And creationists say the truth is constant...'
+p8997
+aS'No Ted Kennedy is not a fundie but Vitter is. For God sake the pope is a nazi and a fundie.   Marlene Elwell, the nazi *itch, who put the evil mariage amendment on the michigan ballot is a Roman Catholic also. If you are a christian and you believe in the suppression of homosexuality then you are a fundie and a christianist.'
+p8998
+aS'The question is illogical. By declaring the existence of an all powerful God then saying God cannot do something is not a comment on his powerfulness but rather the direct representation of his nature. Your question by its very statement does not test wether or not God is all powerful but wether or not God is comprehensible. See another thread for that topic.   The statement that God is all powerful defines his nature. To state then that he cannot do something outside of his nature as proof of the non existence of his nature is circular in logic.'
+p8999
+aS"And an even funnier thing is it won't affect his wallet at all."
+p9000
+aS"And, what percentage is that? How was the poll conducted? Who conducted it? How was the determination made about who was a 'scientist'?"
+p9001
+aS"No. You're missing the point. Al wants you to think all we have to do is stop emitting CO2. He wants you to fear something that he knows how to fix...so you'll give him prizes for being a genius and solving the problem.   Al Gore is a shyster...just like Michael Moore. Documentary, my XXX!   Tell me, what has caused the global warming on Mars?...Jupiter? I understand the temperatures there have been rising more in the past few years than before. Think it could be resulting from their industrial age?   ...and he's pretty much a hypocrit about what we should do. Check the stats on his personal home. Check the emissions rating of his antique private jet. He claims to be doing his part by leading a carbon neutral life...which means he merely paid for permission to continue polluting the earth with his inefficient means of private transportation and his energy sucking home.   He claims that sea levels will rise 20 feet or so shortly, yet he bought a million dollar condo near sea level in California.   We should all decrease what we spew into the air (and what we send to landfills). This fact does not diminish the lies told by Al Gore...the ones that got him an Oscar and a Nobel Peace Prize, both of which become more meaningless each year.   Gore, a shyster   http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sh...d-return-oscar   http://www.globalwarminghoax.com/news.php?extend.29   1."
+p9002
+aS'My recollection is similar to yours. I encountered it in an AP biology class in high school, we spent about 1/2 the extra-long class in labs (I think that was the primary difference).   The giraffe example was an "aha" moment for me personally, I suspected life changed, but the specifics I had never thought about.   I recall a disclaimer at the start of the section, but I don\'t recall the exact wording.   -Mach'
+p9003
+aS'You are getting to a more complicated area where "mental existence" no longer matters. I\'ve explained earlier that it isn\'t exactly the same as "self defense" so I don\'t think a similiar response is needed. Furthermore, you are saying mental existence is not solely the thing that gives you value but rather it depends on outside influences and chance.   At some point it just seems like the stance on abortion is that the woman is more important no matter what. This is why I claim some will rank humans above other humans...a dangerous precedent which we have tried before.'
+p9004
+aS"But only if they're willing to receive one. Most aren't."
+p9005
+aS'i\'m impressed! this is a very precise description, in regular english   and yes, the deduction in 9 seems presumptious if all we state is God has a "possibility of existence". how this was cleverly cleared up (from the same source site) was simply a trip back to the definition: "greatest possible being". the "greatest possible being", by definition, MUST have a possible existence. in otherwords, we cannot assume that there is a possibility that the greatest possible being does not exist. yeah, it sounds like the whole "proof" is pointless because your premise is already the proof   just keep in mind that for the purposes of this proof, God is defined as "the greatest being possible". as long as that definition is maintained, the proof works...   does that mean that God exists? hmmm....'
+p9006
+aS'you know why? because God touches our hearts like nothing you have ever felt before. it is amazing'
+p9007
+aS"This makes more sense then anything else I've heard on this thread."
+p9008
+aS"I'm not arguing that gun control will change the nature of men- though guns may make them more willing and confident to engage in crime. With guns criminals can do even more damage. Adding guns to crime is like adding gasoline to a fire- it makes an already existing problem worse. If you think that just as many people die from stabbing and beatings in other developed nations as people die from guns in the US then you need to do more research."
+p9009
+aS"Yes, they do show a faithful devotion to the ultimate reality that there are no gods. You're an atheist, aren't you?"
+p9010
+aS'This also applies to tapeworms. I fail to see how it is therefore relevent to any debate on abortion.'
+p9011
+aS'So, your saying an eyewitness would mean nothing. Yeah right.'
+p9012
+aS"Well, not completely, but yes, quite the same. However, this is irrelivent- she wasn't a person, because she was in a coma. Does that give me the right to kill her? Of course not!   What about fetuses born in comas? Can we kill them?   What about people in vegetative states? After all, they arn't perfect, so let's kill them!"
+p9013
+aS"Oh. You just lost me. The fact is, Jesus warned his followers that they would be persecuted for his sake. Read Matthew 10:5-42, if you care for the full text. Basically he told them they would be beaten, thrown in prison, crucified, and put to death if they followed him. And that is exactly what happened to the disciples and all those who gave a witness for Christ as Lord and Savior.   The various Roman emperors in those years of the early church sought to kill every Christian they could find, men, women, and children. Christians were crucified by the thousands, covered in pitch, and sit afire to provide light for the emporer's lavish garden parties. They were killed in the arena by wild animals and tortured to death in numerous ways. They were called martyrs, which now means one who dies for a cause. The word is Greek and means \xe2\x80\x9cwitness\xe2\x80\x9d. These witnesses for Christ were killed for their faith. How many Christians would we have today if they had to die for their faith? In spite of everything that the emperor did, they could not kill the Christians fast enough. More were believing in Christ every day, and eventually even the Roman emperor himself became a Christian and Christianity was embraced and sanctioned."
+p9014
+aS'So he failed to follow procedure? So was one of the procedures to assist the child in holding the gun while the gun was being fired and to not stand at a distance? If that\'s the case then the instructor at the firing range was also partially at fault because it was also his responsibility to supervise the child. And I just found this:   "SPRINGFIELD, Mass. - Authorities in Massachusetts are considering whether criminal charges should be filed in the death of an eight-year-old boy who accidentally shot himself with an Uzi submachine-gun at a gun show.   "Hampden County District Attorney William Bennett says he hasn\'t been able to find any law that would authorize a child to possess or fire a machine-gun."   Criminal charges possible in boy\'s Uzi death, Massachusetts authorities say - Yahoo! Canada News   So not only is allowing children to fire machines guns irresponsible it may also be illegal.'
+p9015
+aS"Yes the facts speak for themselves, they just don't sing the song you think they do. No biologist will find any need at all to wave any hands in this instance, for as you say the facts DO speak for themselves."
+p9016
+aS'Excellent point Doc'
+p9017
+aS'The definition of manslaughter is when one\'s actions, which end up killing someone, display a reckless disregard for the dangers of the situation. That\'s not a proper legal definition, but it\'ll do.   Now, you want to argue that pro-lifers would be forced into the counterintuitive conclusion that ALL miscarriage is manslaughter, and thus their position is ridiculous. I\'m saying that they would only be forced to admit that a very small portion of miscarriage is manslaughter, and a portion that they would probably be willing to make a case for.   I\'m not saying "miscarriage is not manslaughter," but only "miscarriage is not always manslaughter." For example, if a woman took perfectly good care of herself and did nothing dangerous, but had a miscarriage anyway, she would obviously not have committed manslaughter. If a woman had one drink with dinner, but she was carrying a very unhealthy fetus and it died, then she would not have committed manslaughter, because that was not reckless. I pointed out the "you-shouldn\'t-be-drinking-and-having-unprotected-sex" argument as a position somebody might hold, but I think that it would probably be judged as unrepresentative of the definition of manslaughter.   So obviously, miscarriage cannot be manslaughter in the sense of "every instance of A is an instance of B."'
+p9018
+aS'Technically, all syllogisms need two premises, first of all.   "Step two" and "step three" were a dilemma, not separate steps. Learn to read.   Dilemma:   You only read Scenario 1, which was:   step two -God can create a rock he cannot lift -   Step three - God cannot lift the rock   conclusion - God is not all powerful   Scenario Two was   - God cannot create such a rock   - Therefore, there is something God cannot do   - Therefore, God is not all-powerful   The only case in which God could truly be all-powerful is if he can somehow both create an unbreakable rock and then break it, which defies the Law of Non Contradiction and is thus absurd. Thus, the notion of all-powerfulness, which leads to such a notion, is also absurd.'
+p9019
+aS'So what\'s the deal when GWB "gives" $3,000 but the insurance premiums cost $6,000, the family can\'t make up the difference and the $3,000 goes unspent. All we\'ve accomplished is to transfer $ out of the U.S. Treasury. You think it\'s a good idea to just give money away and not get anything for it? You\'re thinking of the Clinton years when there was a surplus.'
+p9020
+aS'Yes, every living thing is made up of cells.'
+p9021
+aS'We agree!   Excellent!'
+p9022
+aS'If your friend is hearing voices in her head to walk into traffic, she needs some psychiatric help.'
+p9023
+aS'You pointed out someone that had 6 fingers.   I said that making a copy is not creating anything new, I never mentioned anything about reproduction.'
+p9024
+aS"Can't argue with this illogic."
+p9025
+aS"Well, I would agree that as many constitutional ammendments probably would not have passed, but I certainly don't think they all would not have been passed, and I don't think that Massachusettes allowing same-sex marriage was a bad thing. Constitutional ammendments are difficult to overcome, but no one can ever change a law if people aren't willing to take a stand and fight for it.   Can you tell that I love the quote in Jyoshu's signature?"
+p9026
+aS"Actually it wouldn't. Since there is no rational, believable evidence for creationism, it wouldn't be any more believable if evolution were disproved. As an example, I dare you to start a thread in an appropriate forum and give us tested evidence for a global flood as depicted in Genesis. Good luck."
+p9027
+aS'Well, how else were they supposed to reproduce?'
+p9028
+aS'Well if you just shoot someone and they die then they dont get their day in court so they dont get due process. The fifth says you cant lose your life without due process.'
+p9029
+aS'Purposefully communicating information as a means to an end... wound healing.'
+p9030
+aS"The subject matter would be life forms. The units would depend on which particular aspect you were studying   For instance to the question 'what units of measurement would you use for the effect of evolution?   I would say genetic changes that have patterns.   ID would have that and more."
+p9031
+aS'Said the troll that lives in the UK'
+p9032
+aS"Are you saying that given enough time you can come with answers? That's a statement of faith."
+p9033
+aS"I may be a pro-gunner but what doe's that have to do with with gay rights?   Since I'm a pro- gunner I won't force my life style or views on you,if you don't force yours on me.Deal?   After all you seem to be the expert on gay rights."
+p9034
+aS"Why do people on the pro-gun side continuously try to oversimplify the issue? No one is really arguing that there would be zero murder without guns. The question is would there be less murders without guns. In developed nations with stricter gun laws there are less murders. At any rate, I don't think you can draw such conclusions based on one incident."
+p9035
+aS"A person going to Hell is a consequence of sin. God doesn't want it, but he can't stop it."
+p9036
+aS"I don't believe Hell is a place either (or even if I believe in hell to begin with), but tell me more about what you mean by this. It sounds interesting."
+p9037
+aS'actually they probably drifted much faster than that.....probably upon a pole reversal.'
+p9038
+aS'and section 6'
+p9039
+aS'After what the Fins been through, fighting the mother country, the Soviet Union under Lenin and then Russia and Germany and finally Germany, I doubt they are going to let their own government take away their guns??   Most folks have learned to leave those Finns alone.'
+p9040
+aS"The Brady Campaign whines more than they act. Making handguns legal in Chicago wouldn't make them happy. Sending the national guard in wouldn't make them happy. They don't have a solution for the problem, but they're right there to whine about it.   They're just like the Federal Government; they find something simple and complicate it."
+p9041
+aS'Define "many". What you really mean one is too much. Even when the one is used soles for personal defense. Besides your in Austraila, no one cares what you think.'
+p9042
+aS"In point of fact, the low birth rate in most of Europe is not due to the availablity of abortion, but to good sex education and the ready availablity of effective contraception to everyone who needs it. See this study, for instance:   http://www.advocatesforyouth.org/PUB...heet/fsest.htm   People have small families because they want small families. In point of fact, the abortion rate in Europe is generally much lower than the rate in the US, due, again, to education and contraception.   Would you force folks to have children they don't want?"
+p9043
+aS'Unions fought to keep children out of work for the same reason they fought to keep blacks and women out of work - they want a monopoly on employment.'
+p9044
+aS"I don't have the time nor the funding to put this in video form like Harris and Dawkins. I don't think many, if any, Christians really do - satire about atheism isn't a strong Christian practice, not nearly as strong as atheist satire about Christianity, it seems. Maybe that's what made Poe's Law so notable in the beginning of this thread."
+p9045
+aS"Well, actually society has said that 18 is the dividing line. It can then also say, that under certain circumstances, for a particularly bad person, in some cases it will be considered if the person is 16 or 17. That's why we have all the judges and lawyers, etc..."
+p9046
+aS'It is horribly oppressive of women, though, to oppose both abortion and contraceptives. That means that women will have no control over their pregnancies at all.'
+p9047
+aS'It depends on the particular situation. Some adoption agencies ask about it, and some don\'t. Most social workers who do home studies are aware that they have gay clients doing adoptions. Some adoptive gay parents are out about it, and some keep it quiet.   There are currently some foreign countries that require adoptive single parents to sign an affadavit that says, "I am not homosexual." Those are the rules of some foreign countries, notably China, not the United States or any state.   China has recently placed greater restrictions on prospective adoptive parents. They have sharply limited the opportunities for single people to adopt, and it looks like they may prohibit single-parent adoptions entirely. They have also instituted a weight requirement for all adoptive parents. In the case of a couple, their combined weight has to be below a certain figure or they are not allowed to adopt. No fat people allowed to adopt, which cuts out possibly most Americans.'
+p9048
+aS"yes, but adam wasnt created with hereditary information or from sperm and egg cells. adam was the prototype. any subsequent humans should be born following the fashion in which adam was made. otherwise adam could have been shaped like a goat and still bear human children, because god could have formed him into whatever shape or lack of shape he wanted, yet put the genetic information in him to produce human offspring. why should adam's children look like adam? wouldnt adam's children be born the way adam was created, or not?"
+p9049
+aS"And your analysis is flat out lacking. What everyone else seems to realize is that the reason Obama won is because of FAR higher turnout, many by African American voters. (Who more tend to be ... taa daa! ... Democrats!) There is definitely a considerable discrepancy in Obama supporters and gay marriage supporters. Of that, there can be no doubt.   And your anaysis of the FL situation is completely removed from reality. FL requires a vote of over 60% for an amendment to pass. It wouldn't pass at 59%, let alone 50. So not only do you demonstrate a lack of even knowing what was needed there, it doesn't even fit as an apt comparison."
+p9050
+aS'I think you present a good point, but part of the test here is to see how my post is reponded to; silence from certain people tells us things in inself.   So far it seems my initial estimation of the issue is about right- the idelogy being upheld helps some people ignore the effect the punitive policy imposes.'
+p9051
+aS"A slimey claim you cannot support as usual. In developed Nations, the U.S. is far down the list as has been posted on this very board at least 5 times. Those 'other' Nations also have far more crime and violent crime than the U.S."
+p9052
+aS'And here our Government says:   Rights and Responsibilities'
+p9053
+aS'So sorry; I have a friend who works and lives in the D.C. area, but he has residency in Mass., because he owns a home there. And he was able to be married only because he owns a home there ?'
+p9054
+aS'thatisnt stupid, its what teh bible says. teh dinosaurs are heavier thatn humans so they sunk and humans foated. the arc protecid the rest ans they died later when humans kiled them tehy still see dinos today in congo so some survivd.'
+p9055
+aS'Well, I suppose that the reply it took me almost 5 minutes to type, a couple more to check and a couple to correct will not suffice now.'
+p9056
+aS"Why is that propoganda? It's exactly what you do."
+p9057
+aS"Well, given that your term is a fabrication of the creationist's mind, I suppose you're right. Evolutionists don't actually exist. Therefore you could assign whatever traits you wanted to them, including dishonesty. Evolutionist is a term designed to cast evolution as a faith based notion. The problem is there is no faith in evolution, faith is a belief in something with no proof. Evolution has proof. Therefore it cannot be a faith based idea. A typical creationist attack is to misrepresent their target by creating a strawman of it. They then declare it is wrong and by proxy, the actual theory wrong. It's fundementally weak, but inline with a belief that is scientifically unsound."
+p9058
+aS"Actually, not at all true. The organisms of the Cambrian look little like modern animals. It is only the major phyla that are recognized by the derived characteristics. For example, the cordates first arise in the early Cambrian, along with primitive inverebrates. You can safely say that no animal living today looks much like any living then. For example, there were no amphibians, no reptiles, no insects, no birds, and of course, no mammals.   Your shotgun approach isn't actually worth answering in any detail. It isn't even your work."
+p9059
+aS'And how is your think group any different, you all think alike just as gun owners all think alike. So stop calling the kettle black.'
+p9060
+aS"You mean to tell me it's a falsehood??   I don't believe it."
+p9061
+aS'Let\'s not confuse our readers. supersport is not saying it\'s evolution; he\'s saying that "evolutionists" say that it\'s evolution. It should be clear now to the readers that scientists recognized perfectly well that this is an example of plasticity.'
+p9062
+aS"No I don't think that tying your tubes is abortion. I only think abortion comes into play when there is actually cells forming to make a baby, and you get them scraped out, or abort a baby before or after the third trimester. Plus I heard that if you tie the tubes, when you decide you want a baby you can untie the tubes, to conceive a baby. But burning is another thing. But unless there is actual cells forming it is not abortion"
+p9063
+aS'Same thing happened in Rwanda. First they put the names of all Tutsis on lists. Then, the Hutu came around with machettes and took them off of the lists....permanently.'
+p9064
+aS"Then there's that state thaht wants to remove the use of BC and AD from the calendar. I guess they'll change it to some neutral like plus and minus numbers just to stay with the rest of the world....or maybe 2005 will change to 133,956,373,278."
+p9065
+aS"There's absolutely no way in hell this could be legal in any sense. That California school got ***** slapped for expelling a student who had a gun off campus, beyond the jurisdictional reach of the school. So how can this school believe they can get away with such an insane policy?"
+p9066
+aS"Thank God. I too hope it doesn't keep going back and forth. While I live across the river in Parkville, Missouri, I used to live in Overland Park Kansas and went to school there. I think they are generally pretty good public schools, it's just the state school board that keeps effing everything up when they get some christonazis on board."
+p9067
+aS'One day you\'re going to realize that you\'re evangelizing" and "witnessing" have pushed far more people away from religion then has brought them in."   "You\'re not telling people about God, you\'re guilting them and putting them down. You\'re drawing an imaginary line that separates "us" from "them", and you\'re cutting yourself off from other people. When Jesus "evangelized" (I believe with all my heart he would hate that word), he made honest friends, not with the purpose to "convert" them. He didn\'t hand them a track and scare them into being a Christian. No wonder people hate Christians, for God\'s sake I\'m starting to hate Christians."   Maybe you should follow your own advice...   jim:   Yes, God loves Saddam but He hates the way he is acting.'
+p9068
+aS"You're working at the wrong end of the problem. We need young to survive. It's the old that are expendable."
+p9069
+aS'The quality of life ethic is far different from sactity/dignity of life ethic. A quality of life ethic carried out to its logical conclusions does not promote a pro-life society. Instead, there would be genocide against the handicapped, elderly, and people who people of power have deemed life unworthy of life. The problem with this ethic is that it is centered in arbritrary people deciding arbritarily which person passes the "quality of life" test.'
+p9070
+aS'A soul has a consciences, it can be emotionally moved from different states of being. This is how the Bible can say ones soul is moved; saddened; joyous. Etc.   I think therefore I am. Meaning a soul is emotional and so it really has no body. The soul is what we ask the Lord to preserve.   1Peter 1[9] Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.   Hamburger does not have a soul, it is dead meat. People eat brains and all the pieces of an animal. No soul. The soul is consciences. Under some conditions it can return, not after death or before a brain though. We know that to be impossible. Fetuses do not get emotional; there is no mind to speak of. No soul there to trouble.   If you?re on a machine and a doctor determines your brain is dead, the soul is not there. The body could see hell or heaven and there is no emotional effect. No soul for that.   Read the Bible. Don?t listen to fools; you?re a person with a soul. Use it.'
+p9071
+aS'So even though you can legally conceal carry right up to the gate of the national parks, and you can legally hunt within the parks, somehow concealed carry in the parks will become more dangerous?'
+p9072
+aS"That's because its sophistry. Its an inherent contradiction and it simply means we don't have the capacity to understand it. Another more common example is that the assertion that the universe cannot be endless, and yet as far as we know it is. Trying to understand it is for us humans like an ant trying to fathom the theory of relativity.   Damn are we ever conceited as a race...we seem to think that if we can't understand something, it cannot be. We also tend to think, in every generation, that we have achieved somehow the pinnacle of progress."
+p9073
+aS'So why should merchant ships be required to go unarmed and defenseless in dangerous areas?'
+p9074
+aS"It is worse then that they just don't get it. Once you put some civil rights on the ballot nothing is off limits. Freedom of speech, religion, assembly ect.. they are all up to be voted out of existence for an unpopular minority by the majority. They just don't get it."
+p9075
+aS'And she was having unprotected sex? So she knew becoming pregnant was a possibility? Yeah, I could see that being condemned by pro-lifers.'
+p9076
+aS'OK try the US Constitution. We are a representative democratic republic not a majority rule nation. Majorities hold certain powers but they are limited. Minorities continue to have rights which may not be infringed by the majority. Amibiguity and sharing of interests in various types of personal and social decisions is a necessary component of this system. We are built on compromise and that has served us well.'
+p9077
+aS"So, we are debating creation, yet you don't consider quoting the bible, the single most important original proponent of the creation account and to you, it doesn't qualify as a source for what is being discussed here? You say this and expect to be taken seriously?"
+p9078
+aS'State-level governments are largely worthless, in my opinion. It is complete absurdity to allow Constitutions to be ammended based on the vote of the people. People as a whole are largely biased, uninformed, and care only about the wellbeing of the majority, persecuting the minority any chance they get. Simply put, the will of the people is too often to benefit the majority and persecute the minority, and this can be seen everywhere throughout history. The will of the people often deserves to be not only ignored but put in a little can and crushed, for the voice of the people is not the voice of the people at all; it is the voice of the majority.   I cannot know the intentions of the creators of the California goverment when they created their judicial system, but if it was anything like the intentions of the founders of our nation, then the judges are doing precisely what it was intended to do: judge laws which persecute the minority, assuring that the government cannot engage in such persecution without a whole lot of effort and not having to fear retaliation. If the point of judges was simply to give in to whatever pesecution 51% of the population wishes to force upon the other 49%, then our government would be tyrannical in no time.   You may feel that a bad precedent was set, but I consider it a far worse precedent for a judge to have given into the majority, to ignore what he feels is a destruction of freedom and equality, simply because it is popular to do so. I would also recommend that the California Constitution be judged based on the fact that it likely has conflicting statements, for example, it may state that everyone must recieve equal protection under the law, of which this is a clear denial.   The California judge would probably not have the authority to refer to the Federal Constitution; it would have to be taken to the Federal Courts for that.'
+p9079
+aS'Three questions:   What country operates under an "unbridled capitalism" system?   Can you name any nation that has operated under your idea of socialism successfully?   If the American system of government is so terrible, why do we have one of the highest standards of living on earth?   Just because you think you are entitled to what I earn doesn\'t make it so. Earn your own.'
+p9080
+aS"The fear of God? What God? Only yours or any God? How about the fear of something greater than yourself? Would that be progress?   I'm not trying to inform you or anyone else of anything at this time. I posted thread originally to get reactions to it so that I could better judge whether those views were valid or not. As a side affect people may be influenced by the debates that happen here, but I am doing this for myself more than I am for anyone else. So don't think I'm trying to push anyone to believe anything, although I do wish for people to question their own views as a way to best understand what they believe in and why they believe it. Based on the way you posted here, it is my guess you are unwilling to do that in the case presented here."
+p9081
+aS'Actually they do. Whether or not you think they should is another matter entirely. Did you not notice where the article came from? From a paper in India. I also found articles on the same subject from papers all over the country as well as in other countries such as Romania.   Save your snobbery for someone else.'
+p9082
+aS'Humans cannot cleanse themselves of their sins.'
+p9083
+aS'This was pretty much my understanding of how natural selection was viewed before Darwin.   Nonetheless, I think that my point still stands. Darwin proposed that natural selection is responsible for the diversification of species. This pre-Darwin concept denies this. My understanding is that anti-evolutionists refused to accept that natural selection could have led to the diversification of species. Until recently, when they realized that evolutionary theory could help out in their how-many-animals-could-fit-on-the-ark dilemma; now they suddenly take an idea from evolutionary science and propose that suddenly all the present species could "micro-evolve" from a few ancestral "kinds" on the ark.'
+p9084
+aS"I say that you need to take into consideration the number of criminals that'll disregard the lock and try and break down the door anyway. That's why smart people don't rely exclusively on locks and security systems for their own protection."
+p9085
+aS'But you are smart enough to realize that the ban on gay marriage has nothing to do with it.'
+p9086
+aS"WOW simone, are you kidding me? You will use this story as an example of how dangerous giving birth is on this American forum by referring to a story from Sub Saharan Africa? And you consider this a rational argument? Here's another quote from your link: Fistulas are a scourge of the poor, affecting two million women and girls, mostly in sub-Saharan Africa and Asia   So tell us, PLEASE!!! How is this an argument which justifies abortions in America where Fistulas is virtually unknown as a result of child birth? Tell me how this quoted section below applies to any aspect of medical care in the USA.   The women filled most of Ward 2, a long, one-story building with a cement floor and two rows of closely spaced beds against opposite walls. All had suffered from obstructed labor, meaning that their babies were too big or in the wrong position to pass through the birth canal. If prolonged, obstructed labor often kills the baby, which may then soften enough to fit through the pelvis, so that the mother delivers a corpse.   Obstructed labor can kill the mother, too, or crush her bladder, uterus and vagina between her pelvic bones and the baby&#8217;s skull. The injured tissue dies, leaving a fistula: a hole that lets urine stream out constantly through the vagina. In some cases, the rectum is damaged and stool leaks out. Some women also have nerve damage in the legs.   One of the most striking things about the women in Ward 2 was how small they were. Many stood barely five feet tall, with slight frames and narrow hips, which may have contributed to their problems. Girls not fully grown, or women stunted by malnutrition, often have small pelvises that make them prone to obstructed labor."
+p9087
+aS"No Archie I wouldn't dare do anything sexual outside of the missionary position without a ring on my finger... As far as superior or better umm no Archie. As a governor of a state he has to be for all peoples not just the ones that fund his campaign.. Unless of course the constitution is flawed and there's a tiny little clause excluding him from upholding all aspects of the document.   And once again YOUR god commanded Archie not America's god or every person on this planet. Don't you understand that there is a separation between church and state? Or did you throw that out the window too?   Oh and the state of Texas is making school children take a bible class. Doesn't matter if the kids an atheist or agnostic or doesn't believe in it or was raised differently their still making them read it.   Way to go Texas for overstepping the boundaries of church and state...   But no Archie I'm merely stating that this nut doesn't consider gays or lesbians equal peoples under the law where they need protection. Doesn't matter that I can pull up thousands of incidents of hate crimes due to a persons sexual orientation, doesn't matter that Gay and Lesbian teens are harassed up to the point of suicide let alone god forbid their allowed to even have rights.   Point being is a public official elected to serve and protect all peoples under the law for the common good has stated just to do the opposite.."
+p9088
+aS'First, I think you may have misunderstood the "pro-life mantra" seeing how many pro-lifers think it permissable to disconnect life-support systems in certain circumstances, which necessarily results in a person\'s death. But nevertheless, I think we agree that for purposes of the abortion discussion, it is a closer analogy to assume the violinst is only connected for nine months, and no longer than if we assume the violinist to be connected for some other arbitrary period of time. Am I correctly discerning an agreement on that?'
+p9089
+aS"So then women who are pregnant shouldn't be allowed to   1) Smoke   2) Take any kind of drug that could possibly harm the child   3) Drink   or do any otherwise legal action?   And VOR takes another giant step towards fascism."
+p9090
+aS'Actually, I meant the behaviour refered to in her post was interesting.'
+p9091
+aS'What about the pain and death inflicted upon the innocent women and girls forced to give birth? Have you no regard for them?'
+p9092
+aS"You think open carrying of loaded handguns in public will become fashionable in CA?   I think if anyone took to this they'd find themselves asked to leave establishments routinely."
+p9093
+aS'You are distorting my view. I certainly do not think that I am "god" or that everyone has to revolve around my standard. However, I do think that morality has to have a rational basis behind it. This is my particular rational basis.   My moral code certainly isn\'t my own invention but is based on the moral codes which I have often heard expressed by others, as well as the moral code of the German philosopher Kant (often referenced in secular moral discussions). Most people from childhood are taught morals at least partly from the same points of view I use. After all, how often have you heard the phrase "How would YOU like it if that happenned to you?" or something similar. That is essentially the same as my basis of morality. It seems to be very common. Even many religions use a similar basic appoach - "Do unto others...". Of course, we all differ enough in our psychology that we might have some differences in how we would expect to be treated by others. So, this approach that I present would not lead to the same result in all people. Also, this approach depends on the capabilities of the person to see the big picture and to be able to fully see things from the other person\'s point of view. Since we are imperfect in these skills, it certainly helps to have moral discussions, moral mentors, etc. who can enlighten us in various situations. It is not a perfect method but at least it is not arbitrary since it is based on reason. Note that the famous German philosopher Kant gave a similar secular moral code in his Categorical Imperative: "Act only according to that maxim whereby you can at the same time will that it should become a universal law".   Your view doesn\'t seem to be based on reason but on a blind trust in a religious authority that tells you that a particular set of rules is right and must not be questioned. For those of us who do not hold the same beliefs as you, those rules often seem quite arbitrary. Sometimes some of the reasons behind those rules are illucidated, often not. Sometimes the rules are the same as those derived by secular reasoning, sometimes not.   Personally, I would prefer an imperfect moral code that at least is based on reason and is refineable to one that is immovable and based on arbitrary standards.   On a last note, there certainly could be moral codes that are based neither on religion nor on some version of the moral code which I have presented. If so, I would be quite interested in hearing them.'
+p9094
+aS'I think that the type of weapon does make a difference. A tyrant would be more dangerous to the world if he was armed with WMDs rather than knives.'
+p9095
+aS'And sometimes, necessary.'
+p9096
+aS'Contraceptives (for example a condom/ the pill) aren\'t going to last a month effectively. Then there\'s the fact that contraceptives, given the above data, can still be 99% effective, as it doesn\'t mention how many pregnancies they\'ve prevented.   What does the writer make of this though? "According to this, condoms have a high failure rate for pregnancy."'
+p9097
+aS'the fetus would be a real person...and it seems like....in order to make the iraq war/abortion connection....you would have to support the war!'
+p9098
+aS'Not heard that before! made me laugh almost as much as your lettuce eating Tyrannosaur'
+p9099
+aS"So you have a scumbag democrat screeching hate speech and we are supposed to believe its true! Get real baby even you don't believe this unless you have donated a vital organ associated with reasoning."
+p9100
+aS"Why is it when Creo's don't believe something, Evo's always think because they have studies or what have you that we Creo's have to accept it as proof. I mean you don't accept anything as proof from Creo's. If Creo's did some carbon testing and did it accurately and got some anomaly's, you'd still reject it. I didn't lie not even by ignorance. I just don't believe it's true, but I take it I'm not allowed my beliefs . What fact has disproved my worldview, my worldview is intact as it ever has been?"
+p9101
+aS'In other words, you think a Supreme Court decision should only shut down the debate if it\'s a decision you agree with. Roe v. Wade and Heller do share some striking similarities. For example, Scalia stated in Heller:   "Nothing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt on long-standing prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms."   However, the text of the Constitution has as much to say about such restrictions as it does about abortion. I\'ve heard that Scalia has been criticized for making such a statement because there is no clear historical precedent dating back 200 years of banning felons from owning firearms. So neither the text of the Second Amendment nor tradition justifies such restrictions. It is an example of judicial lawmaking.'
+p9102
+aS'Another oft-repeated lie.'
+p9103
+aS'Another strawman.   Explain to me how new information and new features equals to new structures and body parts.   Those links have long been refuted   http://www.creationwiki.org/(Talk.Or...dd_information   http://www.creationwiki.org/(Talk.Or...e_new_features'
+p9104
+aS'They do offer a good insulating blanket which would keep the body of the reptile warm which in turn, would allow the reptile to remain active for a longer period of time. This means more time to hunt and reproduce carrying the mutation onwards.'
+p9105
+aS'Oh you little tramp!'
+p9106
+aS"Apart from the 'horizontally instead of vertically' part which I didn't understand - we're a hundred or so years too late, unfortunately. You might as well ask for an example of a book or website on cosmology that 'admits' the sun may just be a big ball of fire pushed by a scarab beetle, and not a nuclear furnace about which the earth orbits. There comes a point where continuing to seriously 'consider' a viewpoint becomes a waste of time and resources, because sufficient testing has been done and evidence recovered to discount it. We may one day encounter evidence that completely overturns the whole applecart, but so far it hasn't happened."
+p9107
+aS"no base for calling it a human being? Other than the fact that a fetus is scientifical a human being. Seems you have no basis for saying I can't call a fetus a human being."
+p9108
+aS'Like the docking simulation, in development there is a pre-existing fitness landscape (the womb). Both processes converge on similar endpoints each time it is run, both process are biased to a few endpoints and both processes reach local optima (e.g. skin cells) after the process id complete.   http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/picture....pictureid=1857   Figure 1: Similarities between development and a docking simulation employing a memetic algorithm.   There are certainly many parallels between our own designed simulated docking runs and the development of life.'
+p9109
+aS"Cornell's writings consistently place him within the collective right camp. Even the arguments that are attributed to him which start this thread show his collective right desire.   His claim to neutrality in the individual/collective right debate is as disingenuous as his interpretations of the SCOTUS opinions in both Miller and Cruikshank:   Greatest Threat to Second Amendment?   Greatest Threat to Second Amendment?   Whether ?neutral? or not, Cornell has proven himself capable of distorting SCOTUS opinions when he does not find that they suit his collective right tastes."
+p9110
+aS"Damn, your links sure show a lack of knowledge. Do you have any sources that aren't ignorant as all heck?   While Hoyle came up with the term 'the big bang', he was mocking it. Hoyle was a proponent of the Steady State concept of the universe, which he held on to long after it was disproved by empirical evidence.   FFS, if you are going to use a source, have one that at least has the history of the theory right?   Yes, the estimated age of the universe changed over time. We got increasingly more sophisticated ways to measure it. In the last 30 years, the age estimate has not significantly changed, but the +/- has narrowed drastically. Do try to use a source that isn't over 30 years old."
+p9111
+aS"This was a comment on the physics book that has biographies of great physicists that were Bible believing christians. Right. Many believed in alchemy (they were wrong), harmful effects of night air (they were wrong), spontaneous growth of maggots from rotting meat (they were wrong), rats arising from grain (they were wrong), and the Bible (they were wrong). If it is important that Newton believed in the Bible, why isn't it as important that he believed in alchemy and did not believe in the divinity of Christ.   There isn't any such thing as science from a Christian perspective. Either it is science, or it isn't.   You claimed to have studied evolution. You didn't. Why would you tell us that you did?"
+p9112
+aS"Actually you're wrong. Actually you're very, very wrong. The 5th Amendment, and all the other amendments in the Bill of Rights, only provide protections against government interference, not interference from your neighbors and people who don't have governmental jobs.   But just for the sake of argument, if you want to argue how the man's rights were violated, how about we discuss the rights of the woman? Doesn't she have a right to not be raped? Doesn't she have a right to be secure in her own home against forced invasion?"
+p9113
+aS'That is the kind, not degree. Chimps are not a higher animal. They are different.   interesting'
+p9114
+aS"To clarify: is it the womans choice whether the guy is prosecuted after he has been named, or is it the states? By what you've said so far, it seems that all this law does is give woman the power to punish men if they get pregnant by them; despite the fact that the woman was just as consenting as the man at the time of the coitus.   There are also contraceptive paths for women that don't involve condoms. If a woman gets pregnant because she forgot to take the pill that morning and always relied on that rather than on condoms to stop her getting pregnant, why should the man be punished?   The message here should be simple. If you don't want an abortion, and aren't currently in a position where you can support your children, don't have unprotected sex. At the moment, it is the woman's choice alone whether she has an abortion or not, so it is the woman who has to look after the child if she is single after its birth. If you want to add men to that equation, you have to add them in both places - give them the legal right to 'have an abortion' (force their partner to have one), and make them legally responsible for the child if they do not do so. Then you have an entirely connected couple from coitus onwards; both consenting to sex, both choosing not to have an abortion and both caring for the child after birth. I doubt that that law would be a popular one, either - but if you are going to force a man to take equal legal responsibility for a child, you have to give them equal legal opportunity to avoid it."
+p9115
+aS"And that's when her career and popularity took a nosedive.   Now that she's no longer playing the activist, she's becoming popular again."
+p9116
+aS"Notice the double-standard here? The homosexual lobby accuses us of harassment, yet they are willing to provide names and addresses of people who oppose their agenda. I can't wait to see the backlash from this one."
+p9117
+aS'The process of evolution has no scientifically known teleology and follows no known predestined plan. It does not teach that there cannot be any such things as teleology or forethought. This is where your mistake lies.'
+p9118
+aS"He has a bit more basic information about R.A.T.E. on his webpage.   TO also has a page critiquing R.A.T.E. methodology.   Sorry, I know you're looking for more substantial personal feedback, but this is some good basic information that doesn't rely upon a billion links.   You also might consider asking this question on iidb.org, and maybe Dr. Meert will respond to you personally.   More importantly, let us not get hung up on analyzing the raw empirical data only. For example, if I use a stopwatch to time how long it takes for light to flood the room after I turn on the switch, and I come up with 0.06s, you can't argue with my empirical data: I timed it at 0.06s. The fact that human response time is comparatively lousy and that a stopwatch is awful for extremely short time intervals is more significant that the stopwatch reading itself. This is the primary error that R.A.T.E. makes."
+p9119
+aS"It is an acronym for 'Y'oung 'E'arth 'C'reationist. In other words... someone who believes that the earth is only 6,000 - 10,000 years old and was created in six days by a being known as God."
+p9120
+aS'Argueing with penfold is like wrestling a pig in the mud, the pig enjoys it.'
+p9121
+aS'If logic was invented by man that would mean that when people did not exist neither did logic. That does not sound logical to me. Most people believe there is life eleswhere in the universe (I\'m not saying I do but I just want to illustrate a point). If logic was invented by man does that mean aliens elsewhere in the universe do not have logic to guide them?   Just a question.   "In Christ are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge." (Colossians 2:3)'
+p9122
+aS'well...you gotta point there.'
+p9123
+aS'See above, yet again'
+p9124
+aS'My responses are in bold.'
+p9125
+aS'How is killing a child pro child?'
+p9126
+aS"they may respect life but what about respecting the quality of life?   if they cared about their children's future they would not breed like rabbits. It is callous to use their children to win the 'numbers game'   quality before quantity.   I don't deny that abortion is murder in the womb though."
+p9127
+aS"Yes it is, police aren't obligated by the US Constitution to protect individual citizens. If they were, lawsuits could be filed every time a crime is committed, and the police would go bankrupt really quick."
+p9128
+aS'Actually, the storm lasted for 40 days and 40 nights. The ark was actually afloat for a year or so. So I guess the answer is that the ark had all kinds of pestilent insects winging about and biting and stinging the occupants. The problem is, how did these aquatic breeders actually propagate in the feces and urine infested bilge of the ark?'
+p9129
+aS"No, hiding as an option has not changed since the days of old, with the slight difference that it used to be easier to get out of range. I'm talking about mace, stun guns, tazers, home security (double glazed windows, rhino locks, burglar alarms, CCTV/fake CCTV, panic rooms) and so on.   Although you are quite right to point out that hiding is an option. Non-confrontation for the win.   Highwaymen? At the time of the Constitution there weren't exactly vast suburbs that could be prowled by thieves looking for an open window. Burglary today is more... casual than it used to be, largely thanks to the wonders of home insurance.   No, unjust laws are still passed. If a group of people decide otherwise they become 'terrorists' and are treated as such. Might may not make right, but it does make legal, and the US government has a lot of might.   If only widespread gun ownership was 'safe'..."
+p9130
+aS"Or perhaps Mach just doesn't understand the concept of an 'analogy.'   No one was claiming they want 'rights restricted' because of of bathrooms. He's either being beligerent by intentionally portraying the analogy as a premise, or incredibly dense. I'm starting to wonder if it's the latter . . . ."
+p9131
+aS'Is that not agnostic? You leave yourself open to change if evidence dictates it.   Sorry if this is just turning into word games.'
+p9132
+aS"No. you're not making any sense. Where is symbiote? I got a horrible argument for him to dispell."
+p9133
+aS'You lost me there. Try them how and for what?'
+p9134
+aS"You SERIOUSLY need to take a basic biology course so you can stop sticking your foot in your mouth   An egg is NOT larva, and larva is NOT a caterpillar, and a caterpillar is NOT a butterfly - much the same as a zygote is NOT a embryo, and a embryo is NOT a fetus, and a fetus is NOT a baby, and a baby is NOT an adult.   I challenge you to prove that a larva is exactly the same as a butterfly. If you can't even do something as simple as that, then you'll never understand the process/transformation of what a human has to go through, and THAT in and of itself should give you a clue as to how much in denial you are in, and how much you have to twist the truth around just to justify your version of events. Deal with it!"
+p9135
+aS'Reasonable people would look for justification for their beliefs.   Many who have beliefs based on faith, however, accept things because they feel like accepting them. Including, absolute truths, and contradictions.   The resultant SHOULD be peaceful acceptance because after all, they can both be correct, yet be in contradiction, according to faith-based belief systems. The reality would probably be, as you say, that they would mix up faith and reason and start claiming one is "actually correct", and the other is "The work of the devil", and proceed to clobber the other religion, absorb their members, abordb the traditions that were "popular" from the other religion, rename them and re-color them to match their religion, and carry on proclaiming truth and the afterlife and mercy and whatever else pops into their heads.   That\'s of course, based on what I\'ve seen and read.   -Mach'
+p9136
+aS'Correct. Form letters go in a junk pile. Individual letters are a different matter.'
+p9137
+aS"I believe this is wrong. But this is a private company, and if they want to discriminate based on religion, that's fine, just as a church may outlaw atheists. Do I agree with it? No. But does it have to do with our debate? No. This is about the science classroom. Also, again abiogenesis is a hypothesis, the same level as ID."
+p9138
+aS"http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/hosb703.pdf   It doesn't look like the UK has been doing too bad. Crime has actually been decreasing."
+p9139
+aS'Somehow I don\'t think a high percentage of Ham\'s "facts" are facts.'
+p9140
+aS'No, I think that he\'s right on target. The drug dealers that are caught here in Michigan usually get caught with weed AND more hardcore drugs. Theyy\'re "full service" dealers. Weed is a gateway drug, you know.'
+p9141
+aS"Well, I have heard people on the pro-gun side say that most defensive gun uses don't involve firing even one round. So limiting the capacity would probably have less of an effect on the ability to defend yourself than on crime. So why are people from the gun lobby always whining about restrictions like this? When semi-automatic rifles were banned in Australia, hunters welcomed the law. They saw it as a challenge because it takes greater skill to shoot an animal with a bolt action rifle. Not so in America where some gun owners like to use guns that could take down planes to shoot small animals."
+p9142
+aS'And yet the article is about a legal matter.'
+p9143
+aS"Mother's choice at all times."
+p9144
+aS"Actually, it's not conjecture. The genetic makeup of the several subspecies of arctic foxes bear it out. The dominant allele is rare because it is less adaptive. The dominant allele is most likely ancestral. But even foxes below the Arctic circle show differences in their fur between summer and winter. So yes, foxes that were able to change color in the north had a differential reproductive advantage over those who couldn't."
+p9145
+aS'Is there something wrong with choosing to have a cheese sandwich as opposed to peanut butter and jelly? Do you prefer actually having to make personal moral choices or do you need a rigid and inviolable instruction manual to run your life?'
+p9146
+aS'After. Christian fundamentalism is somewhat recent. It arose as a backlash to discoveries being made in science in the 19th century. From one follower of a 7th Day Adventist prophetess came "flood geology" in the early 20th century. Later, in the renewal of interest in the adequate teaching of science in the U.S. in the 1960s, there arose more modern "creation science." It began by adopting the flood geology of the 7th Day Adventists as the base.   Creation science begins with the assertion the the creation stories, the flood story, even the mythology of Job and Jonah, are literally true. Creation scientists then attempt to distort the evidence to support this particular version of the Bible. When creationists realized that the biological evolution of species does occur, they decided that God had created original "kinds" and then allow hyper evolution after that. Creationists call hyperevolution variation in kind.'
+p9147
+aS'Yes, it\'s very subjective. I was using evil as an example that was incorrectly used on the website. Even though evil is subjective, you can still be evil. (you can do evil to take away your goodness, but the only way to make yourself colder is by removing your heat, not adding "cold")   No, but there is proof that it\'s that way, which can be seen through a combination of personal experience and the experiences of others.   The classic example about seeing that the Earth is round is that of the horizon. Why do ships appear to sink as they approach it?'
+p9148
+aS"Incorrect.   Evolution is not something that must be adhered to. It is a scientific theory. As such, if evidence was brought to light that evolutionary theory couldn't account for, then the theory would be altered or scrapped. It's really quite simple."
+p9149
+aS"So now Wiesmann's barrier is the most important thing to the ToE? Somehow I doubt that biologists agree, but obviously creationists have more authority on the topic of evolution..."
+p9150
+aS"23,000 firearms were handed in when the UK had its gun ban. According to your logic those people that handed in their firearms can still be prosecuted because they took possession of a firearm prior to the ban. I don't think so."
+p9151
+aS"Right. It's called stasis. Species that are well adapted to their environments tend to change little in a stable environment. It is still true that fossil crocs are not the same as modern crocs. There are obvious differences."
+p9152
+aS'Then should not your challenge be re-worded to say "What might be the best..."   Because at present we are not at a stage where by we know everything about \'pain\' therefore in the current climate, rather than what might be known down the track, I think I have met the majority of your challenge. After-all, you are insisting now on what \'you can measure\', and we can\'t measure all that there is about pain, at present.'
+p9153
+aS'Some? 90% is more than some in my opinion. That is a horrible waste. Just think if we could retain 50% of the energy we consumed. We could start eating 1/5th of what we normally eat.'
+p9154
+aS"Because the Iliad and Odyssey do not claim to be divine does not mean they should be placed under a different threshold as the Bible. Otherwise, it's special pleading on your part, and thus logically fallacious.   This is one of many inconsistencies between skeptics in regards to the scrutiny of the Bible. They are unwilling to put the standards they have on the Bible against other books similar in age. If they did, there would not be a single book left standing."
+p9155
+aS"Well, I didn't really mean to go that far. But I'm talking about problems like that all worked out, thought about previously, and that the problem was worked out. I'm talking more about, what if you could make laborers stronger, scientists smarter, and rid us of physical and mental abnormalities ( such as down syndrome, narcolepsy, etc.). I don't think of making everyone the same for that reason. I'm just saying, what if there was a way to better society without going overboard? If the problems were worked out, which I'm sure they will be, what would your moral view on it be?"
+p9156
+aS'I know that. I asked those questions to show how dumb and ridiculous unkerpaulies question was - took it to other examples where such a question is obviously ridiculous to illustrate the ridiculousness of his question.'
+p9157
+aS"And I would like to know why that is. I asked the question in post #2 and got no answer. Are laypersons lacking in intelligence so much that it's hopeless for them to be on the same communication level with scientists? Since they share the same society, put their pants on one leg at a time in the same way, eat, sleep, and share economic processes in comparable ways, it seems to me it would be beneficial for them and laypersons both to understand each other when they use identical terms. (like the word, \xe2\x80\x9ctheory\xe2\x80\x9d)"
+p9158
+aS"Because you asked me to quote your lies. I did. Not only can you not find whichever source you claim speaks of birds' infrared vision, you apparently can't find any source that does so. Despite this, you've been whining about how visible and UV camouflage must be moot because of birds IR vision.   And to top it off, rather than admit to your mistaken memory, you're blaming the imaginary source:"
+p9159
+aS'How is that silly? You do realize that the vast majority of firearms used in crimes are stolen no? And many of those are stolen from legal buyers. While it is a poor argument to argue that firearms should be banned for that primary reason, the underlying principle of control over supply is hardly silly. Unless you think that control over nuclear weapons is silly. Maybe you would. After all, you are Isly.'
+p9160
+aS'And you think this a good thing? It just shows the weak cowardly position of the creationist.'
+p9161
+aS"Again, this wasn't just about you and me. I do think you corrected someone's spelling and if you didn't it was another creationist."
+p9162
+aS"I would kind of Like to Discuss your Fascinating use of Caps.   But seriously, your numbers are insane. Somewhere around 8000 gay couples have gotten married in the past couple of years, how in the world do you imagine that they've cost the state hundreds of thousands or millions each? You just made all that up, didn't you?"
+p9163
+aS"First of all not all Astronomers believe that.   All though it is a very long way to the closest star we really don't know how far stars are away from us it is not possible to know. It is an educated guess at best.   If you base your beliefs on science you will almost always have to change them so are they really beliefs?   Time and distance are 2 different entities. On the other side of the world it is a diffferent day.   A light year is the distance light would travel in a year if at the speed we have computed it to be on earth. How gravity affects light in space in pure specualtion as almost all of the cosmological theories are. Black holes were created to explain the big bang. There are lots of astonomers that are convinced the big bang is a myth.   If the stars were created near the earth and then streched out as the Bible says they were the relationship of time and distance would be quite different and would explain how light from a distant star could be seen.   No one really knows the answer so it is a matter of faith what you decide is true.   Both are possible according to science. The powers that be in science are atheist and get the most press. This does not make them right by default.   There is a very good book on this subject Starlight and Time if you are interested in what a brilliant scientist who believes in Creation has to say.   I will be suprised if you are.   I have read Hawkings and have him on audio and video.   To be fair you should take some time and study the opposing view IMO."
+p9164
+aS'Yet another alleged lie, by the Hillary-haters, shown not to be.'
+p9165
+aS'See Begging the Question'
+p9166
+aS'How do you define "convenience"?'
+p9167
+aS"If that's truly what the organization says, then it's a hypocrite of an organization."
+p9168
+aS'The only person who can take away your sin is God. No human can ever cleanse himself of his sins, so get over it.'
+p9169
+aS'Hold up, your changing your argument. You said "I have never been accosted by an armed assailant. Hence, I see no reason I need to carry a concealed handgun in order to be brave enough to move about my hometown.". This is the reason you gave for not carrying a firearm, I was simply countering that argument because it didn\'t sound very logical to me, still doesn\'t.   As to your new statment, I\'ll need more info. What do your consider an "accidental discharge" of a firearm. I ask because I do not consider someone pulling the trigger to be "accidental" and therefore I consider true accidental discharges to be pretty uncommon.   Yes, for most people I think the chances of being in a car accident are greater then the chances of needing a gun for self defense. But, I\'m not sure why that would make a difference. If it was reversed I would still where my seatbelt.   God Bless'
+p9170
+aS'Actually there is a better solution.   Mandatory male and female birth control pills, financial penalties if you stop taking. Anyone who would get off the pill would want a kid, therefore, abortions would cease.'
+p9171
+aS'And anyone who thinks this will be seen as an XXXXX and close-minded.'
+p9172
+aS"Yes, because its THEIR decision, its THEIR stomachs, and its THEIR lives. I agree that some decisions do need to be made with parental consent, but not this one.   Irrelevant. How does purchasing a house have to do with abortion?   Ok, so what if the kid wants to have the baby and the adults want to get rid of it? What if the adults want her to have the baby and the kid wants to get rid of it? You would force the kid to have a child (that doesn't seem responsible at all), or you would force the kid to abort her child (thereby taking away her son or daughter). Both of those decisions don't sound very consitent or responsible. The decision is best left up to the person that is pregnant, regardless of their age."
+p9173
+aS'Why didn\'t they "fire" and "bar" him in the sixties?'
+p9174
+aS"If the fetus is human is not relevant? So if everyone says it is human then it still doesn't have a right to live then huh? Do you really support the killing of an innocent life for whatever reason? Do you really think placing one human over another is good (in this case women is more important then baby)?"
+p9175
+aS"So then the law is flawed because criminals could just as easily get their hands on select firearms, ban or no ban. You've just admitted that the bill did nothing and thus there's no justification for it to be reinstated."
+p9176
+aS'Actually, one can argue that it was a pagan institution long before it was a religious one.'
+p9177
+aS"Oh really ? Parts of New Orleans were under water for more than 40 days before all the water receeded. Hasn't the plant life there replenished naturally in the wild ? Of course it has. The Earth is very able to repair itself in spite of modern mans sense of self importance. Here's some interesting photographic evidence of it. www.pbase.com/andrys/noah"
+p9178
+aS'So the intent hiding behind abortion laws all along was to keep women in the gutter. There was not any legititamte concern for the unborn fetus. It was all about how they could keep women down. Tell me then, would someone who supports a ban on partial birth abortion do so simply because they want to repress women?'
+p9179
+aS"You know, I cannot even remember if we covered it in middle school or high school biology. I do remember learning about Mendel and his genetics, but I swear I can't remember if we even mentioned Darwin's name. If we spent any time on it at all, it was very little.   Our biology classes were mostly devoted to taxonomy, anatomy/physiology, and cellular machinery."
+p9180
+aS'Nope. Not part of evolutionary theory. It would be stupid to claim that increased genetic variability would "disallow" any portion of the population from breeding.'
+p9181
+aS'Yes...if you ignore people, they eventually go away...except for me, of course.'
+p9182
+aS'See above'
+p9183
+aS"What is astounding about it? If we had been aborted, we wouldn't have known anything about it. Untold billions of conceptions have been spontaneously aborted. Do you shed tears for those, too?"
+p9184
+aS'And he accomplished all this human carnage without a gun. This just proves that if it was possible to eliminate all projectile firing weapons from existing on earth, men would find a way to commit atrocities against his own kind just as he did before such weapons existed if murder was in his heart. Guns are not the issue, the corrupted heart/nature of humanity is.'
+p9185
+aS'Read to the very end of the verse. "If you are not pleased with her, let her go wherever she wishes. You must not sell her or treat her as a slave, since you have dishonored her."'
+p9186
+aS"Fish to Amphibian supporting evidence frmo here:   Fish/Amphibian   Transition from primitive bony fish to amphibians:   Paleoniscoids again (e.g. Cheirolepis)   Osteolepis -- one of the earliest crossopterygian lobe-finned fishes, still sharing some characters with the lungfish (the other group of lobe-finned fish). Had paired fins with a leg-like arrangement of bones, and had an early-amphibian-like skull and teeth.   Eusthenopteron (and other rhipidistian crossopterygian fish) -- intermediate between early crossopterygian fish and the earliest amphibians. Skull very amphibian-like. Strong amphibian-like backbone. Fins very like early amphibian feet.   Icthyostegids (such as Icthyostega and Icthyostegopsis) -- Terrestrial amphibians with many of Eusthenopteron's fish features (e.g., the fin rays of the tail were retained). Some debate about whether Icthyostega should be considered a fish or an amphibian; it is an excellent transitional fossil.   Labyrinthodonts (e.g., Pholidogaster, Pteroplax) -- still have some icthyostegid features, but have lost many of the fish features (e.g., the fin rays are gone, vertebrae are stronger and interlocking, the nasal passage for air intake is well defined.)   And while nothing is ever proven 100% in science, the link between fish and amphibians is pretty conclusive. Evidence for dino to bird evolution just keeps mounting and at present it is the best supported theory. Just look at the recent discovery of an oviraptorosaurian dinosaur with 2 eggs still in it's body, two very bird like eggs.....See here:   dinoeggs   So once again, while not proven 100%, dino to bird evolution is the best supported theory. Do you have anything that is better supported???"
+p9187
+aS'You should have said that. I might have agreed with you.'
+p9188
+aS"Why conception? When a mature ovum leaves the ovary, it has every potential of turning into a human being. How dare I stand idly by while that potential life is wasted, unfertilized? No; clearly, it is my duty to try to reach that ovum with my seed. God said to be fruitful and multiply, so I am just following God's will."
+p9189
+aS'So you are saying the US system is better?'
+p9190
+aS"Again, it's not just 'evidence' but 'evidence constructed into a workable theory'."
+p9191
+aS"It stops us from saying we ara a rational people. I don't support any laws that would allow a father not to have a say so about his child being aborted. Are there any?? If it were a life or death thing for the mother no question.   As I stated I don't like the idea but making it illegal would simply put more unwanted kids in state homes. Lets take care of the living first!"
+p9192
+aS"So where in there does Behe say that brute luck is actually impossible? Nowhere.   Where in there does Behe say that brute luck can be absolutely and definitively ruled out, 100%. Nowhere.   As I originally said, \xe2\x80\x9cWe can find such an explanation wanting or unsatisfying, but being highly unlikely is not the same as proving it could not happen.\xe2\x80\x9d This is quite in line with Behe's statements in his book. Further, PROVING it IMPOSSIBLE is what you would have had to have done to PROVE that evolution is false. Behe says it can't be proven impossible: that it can't be completely refuted.   (And quite frankly, most of us would agree that claiming that an IC system - or multiple IC systems - arose by multiple simultaneous mutations is in no way comparable to claiming that \xe2\x80\x9cthe word luckily popped into existence yesterday with all the features it now has.\xe2\x80\x9d Behe's not being fully honest here.)   What I quoted Behe saying is exactly what he said and is his position on the matter. I have NOT misrepresented Behe's position on this.   Now, a charge of wrongdoing is discarded unless the party making the accusation can fully support his charge: burden of proof falls upon the accuser, not the accused. You've failed to support your charge, so I prevail.   Now, if you want to continue pushing your charge of wrongdoing on my part, you need to show where, in Behe's \xe2\x80\x9cDarwin's Black Box\xe2\x80\x9d, he goes on to show that brute luck is actually impossible: where Behe shows that brute luck can be absolutely and definitively ruled out, 100%. Until you do, you have failed to rebut my counter to your statements, and, I am also cleared of your false charges.   PS: The only one playing around with context here is YOU! The context of my statements was that you claimed to have PROVEN EVOLUTION false, and I pointed out that:   (1) in order for you to have succeeded, one of several things you would have to do (but didn't) is to DISPROVE multiple, simultaneous mutations (brute luck)   and   (2) Behe himself says that multiple, simultaneous mutations CANNOT be absolutely ruled out.   Try to keep the context, okay."
+p9193
+aS"See my post above, Hi. marc ignores fundamentals of Miller's beliefs that he clearly spells out in trying to push his anti-Miller argument."
+p9194
+aS"I think it's true. Why would someone make that up and pass it off as a real event?   I think the continents probably started separating some time after that, which is how God separated the people."
+p9195
+aS'Really, with C being between 1/2 and 2 million defensive gun uses per year. Or perhaps the hundreds of millions of legal, non-defense related, gun uses per year. When you compare the number times a guns are used legally to the number of times they are used illegally, B becomes pretty insignificant.'
+p9196
+aS"Yes, that's all true, and it makes complete sense. But in doing this, the Court may have created a situation where plaintiffs can argue that California is denying people the equal protection of the laws, by allowing some people to be married to same-sex spouses and not allowing other people to be so married. If that is the argument that the plaintiffs make in their federal lawsuit, this could be interesting. The courts might have to interpret whether allowing some people to be married and not allowing other people to be married violates the equal protection clause of the 14th amendment to the U.S. constitution. And then they might have to decide whether this means that all same-sex couples must have the right to marry, because some of them can be legally married. In other words, this situation may be an opportunity, because no one can argue that this is a case of apples and oranges of same-sex couples being different from opposite-sex couples. Now you have same-sex couples who are legally married and same-sex couples who cannot be legally married in the same state, which can be argued to be denial of equal protection of the laws. I don't know....it could be interesting. Maybe things won't play out this way. We'll have to wait and see."
+p9197
+aS"Got evidence to back that up??   I'm not sure how a stoner's worse than an alcoholic really.   -Wez"
+p9198
+aS"Every relationship does entail moral obligations in one way or another, but the argument is that there is no relationship that morally obligates one to share ones body. They are trying to generalize 'moral obligations' as if that justifies anything. There are things that cannot be morally obligated, no matter the relationship, so the argument tries to prove."
+p9199
+aS'Misunderstanding or misrepresentation? Biologists and geneticists do not claim that DNA is isolated from the environment. We are well aware that the environment can cause mutations under many conditions (cosmic radiation, x-ray, etc.). What is denied is that mutations are environmentally directed - in other words, exposure to cosmic radiation will not cause a mutation that will make the organism resistant to cosmic radiation. The mutations will be random.   On the other hand, natural selection IS, by definition, the response of populations to their environment. The environment has been shown to have effects on DNA, i.e., the genome of the population.'
+p9200
+aS'Well that may be your contention, but medically that is not necessarily true. Maybe being gay doesn\'t mean you are suicidal or depressed, but there is more of it going on in the gay life than in the hetero. That in itself is a wake up call. Depression and suicide are harmful, even if it doesn\'t touch you personally. If it were as simple as you say the APA wouldn\'t be re-evaluating "reorientation therapies" would they and with positive critiques too. You wouldn\'t have prominent gay activists like Camile Paglia deriding the gay community for being malcontent when those unhappy with being gay seek and desire the way to be hetero.'
+p9201
+aS'Well, one person got it right...where in the constitution does it say something about health having to be protected?'
+p9202
+aS'And Eisenhower:'
+p9203
+aS'Source?'
+p9204
+aS'If you wanted to be picky about it, I guess you could say that it was a form of last-ditch birth control, after the other forms failed.'
+p9205
+aS"The question still remains as to whether this is negative intrusion (which is what the libertarians want) or positive intrusion (what the libertarians do not want.) Anyone with half a brain can know that it's intrusion. The matter becomes complicated when one tries to place it in the category of anti-murder laws or theocratic forced religion laws."
+p9206
+aS"And you people whine at me about using personal insults ( )... anyhow, once a fetus is eight months, I believe, they are fully developed and ready for a premature birth. I was born prematurely, so don't tell me it doesn't happen. So if you get an abortion at eight months, you're not killing a fetus, you're killing a baby."
+p9207
+aS"Go pound sand. You're the people who want the Separation of Church and State, remember? Get your sick, satanic mits off the church."
+p9208
+aS"Gun control maintains its racist roots even in this day and age. What other reason would there be for Form 4473 to ask applicants what their race is? What is the importance of knowing if somebody's white, black or mexican when they're buying a gun?"
+p9209
+aS"Because violent crime and violent criminals is something that I can't control. Heart disease, that can be worked on with good diet, exercise and medicine if necessary. It's manageable, controllable and can be avoided. You can't do that with a violent criminal."
+p9210
+aS'No, not really...'
+p9211
+aS"I think you are the same person as usa all the way and again.. you have no right to talk about murder because you murder the english language everytime you post.   And no.. the baby does not belong to god because there is no baby and I don't know if there is a god or not. Btw.. I'm not going to incubate something in my body because of you think it's wrong because someone who may or may not exist said so."
+p9212
+aS"Hello there. The principle behind a pro-life Christian supporting the death penalty (I am one) is this: We are talking of innocent life. The death penalty is justified for a person who is guilty of commiting a crime against a society that has that law. The child never did anything wrong. I know of other beleivers who don't support the death penalty, so basically, it's an in-house debate."
+p9213
+aS"The comic relief doesn't even recognize it has passed in on, or attempted to!"
+p9214
+aS"oh, now we're getting somewhere. Explain more, please. Oh, and some evidence of incremental modifications would be nice too."
+p9215
+aS'They can "marry" whomever they love. Benefits though, are a different matter. The state and society views marriage as an opposite-sex institution. It\'s not about anyone getting harmed; no one said it was.'
+p9216
+aS"Well, those who keep using that story can't see the real sins of those cities. They are so sure that it was rampent homosexuality which lead to their destruction. Even though we know that before the Angels were ever sent God had spelled out why he was going to destroy them. He sent the angels because they promiced to find even one righteous man. They failed in that because the angels were attacked for being foreigners. Noone who abuses this story is ever going to admit this fact. They can't see past the supposed homosexual issue."
+p9217
+aS'So, you would vote to legislate against it? Ok, now that thats cleared up, why do you consider sex to be so bad? Sex is a healthy part of a relationship or marrige, and i would not go to these lengths to minimize it. Sex has a small risk of ending in pregnancy, and an even smaller risk if using a condom, and even smaller than that if the woman uses a contraceptive. Then, if EVERYTHING fails, there would be abortion in the extreme circumstances that it does result in a pregnancy. I doubt that criminalized abortion will reduce sex. It will only cause suffering and fear for women.   I thought we were out of the dark ages already.'
+p9218
+aS"Oh boy, you said it!   Is the Earth's Magnetic Field Young?"
+p9219
+aS"Sure.   The woman is a person, and individual, sentient human being. She has the same right to control her bodily resources as any other person does. As such, you can no more force her, against her will, to provide bodily resources to an embryo or fetus, than you can yourself be forced to give of your bodily resources against your will.   Even if somebody is bleeding to death, and your blood can save their life, they still don't have the right to force you to safely give them of your blood.   Each person have that right to control their bodily resources. If you want to force the woman to remain pregnant, you are forcing her to give of her bodily resources against her will. When you don't insist that everybody else be subject to such requirements, then the argument is hypocritical and misogynistic.   And, of course the US Supreme Court agrees with this, thus ruling that per the 14th Amendment of the US Constitution, the woman has the right to privacy, to control her onw body."
+p9220
+aS'Well, you have "proved" that the U.S. health insurance does not have any higher administrative cost than Medicare or the rest od the industrialized world. I think your problem is that you are convinced in your head that that in our healthcare there is no waste. And you are trying to square it with the obvious fact that our cost is the highest with nothing to show for it. You will have to admit that there is waste.   For example we have 5x as many MRI scanners than we need, we perform too many tests, we have high adminstrative cost. All these costs will be reduced. There will be fewer of these things PER INSURED. I do not know how many times I have to repeat this before you get it. The volume of this work PER INSURED will decrease. Do you understand that?'
+p9221
+aS"Look over the Heller ruling again. All nine judges agreed unanimously that the Second Amendment protected a right that was wholly individual in nature. The only disagreement was whether the right still applied today.   And no, the individual states and cities shouldn't be allowed to set their own standards for a constitutional right, that flies in the face of the 14th Amendment. And worse, you're arguing for precedent that would basically allow the various states to not respect your other rights; they could ban the shirt you choose to wear because it's offensive to some small, insignificant minority somewhere."
+p9222
+aS"So when you're doing math, you're an atheist? Of course not. Just because there is overlap doesn't mean that the two views are identical."
+p9223
+aS'Problem is, you think requiring a woman not to kill someone is "treating them as breeding animals". Kind of an odd thought.'
+p9224
+aS"But the civil war wasn't fought for slavery. If you will recall the average northern soldier wasn't too fond of blacks, and that is not only sugar coating it, but saying it in the nicest terms possible. The civil war was fought to keep the union in tact. Border states still kept their slaves for obvious reasons, the intactness of the union trumped any moral principal. Besides, that wasn't true even in practice. Black soldiers were paid less, had less equipment, had less medical care and were given the worst jobs possible. Hardly created equal. It took some time before they could even fight. Your argument is a load of garbage to someone who actually has knownledge about the civil war.   I won't even go into the reconstruction period and how your so called principal didn't even exist."
+p9225
+aS'Actually Electro, do you remember this thread?   Evidence for a flood? Oddly enough it took 20 pages before one of them even tried to argue against the reasons why the flood did not occur.'
+p9226
+aS"I'm not saying we got it all right"
+p9227
+aS'Maybe you need to take a hard look at where your rights start infringing on the rights of others. A pretty good case? Dream on. Sure, you have the rigth to take the morning after pill. you do not have the right to force another individual to sell you that pill, any mroe than you have the right to walk into your local ford dealer and demand that they provide your with a chevy. Its just not the way the world works. People can go to another pharmacy or, not. It really does ntoy matter. Retail establichments are able to decide fro themselves what they carry, the governemtn has no place in such decisions. If they decide not to carry the pill, or the pharmacist simply decides they are not going to dispense it, that is their right. It is entirely an issue between employers and their employees and witht he The American Pharmacists Associations policy that allows pharmacists to refuse to fill presciptions on moral grounds, it is hardly an issue there, either.'
+p9228
+aS"Because there are people who are trying to deny the theory of evolution it's place as a vital part of public school's biology curriculum."
+p9229
+aS'Even new Justice Sotomayor, who claimed she ruled by precedent will be bound by the Heller Decision if she remains true to her purported philosophy. The debate between Sui Juris and Res Judicia should no longer be an issue with the liberals on this RIGHT! It either applies to all or it applies to none which would result as Justice W.O. Douglas wrote: "a revolution". It is in the government\'s (federal especially) best interests to keep our soldiers employed in foreign countries. BTW, I think the court decision in Nunn vs. State of Georgia did the best summation of this right!'
+p9230
+aS'Armour piercing ammo, 100% legal. Here is where you can buy SS109 armour piercing ammo: http://ammoman.com/   I agree, the Brady Bill is laughable to criminals who want the contraban items. You do not even have to buy them, you can make them yourself.   I agree that the cops are not the best protection. The best protection is YOU for YOURSELF. Only you are on the spot the quickest when you are threatened. Only you are able the judge quickest weather your saftey is threatened. Seach on any engine: police accidental shooting. It is quite alarming how many times cops shoot the innocent. If cops can get to a crime scene in time, they have to sort out the criminal and the victim very quickly under difficult conditions. In essence, they do not get the whole story, until it is over. You may even gen a criminal pretending to be a victim, only to shoot the cops in the back. That is why victims at the crime scene are the best judge of who needs to be shoot first.   For my own personal situation, I do not recommend just buying a gun for protection. Also seek training and lots of it. Then practice, practice, practice, and then practice some more. No matter how justified you are defending your life with firearm, you must still defend your actions in a court of law, especially if human life was taken.   I do not agree with people carrying firearms with no training. That is a very personal decision and I will not stop anyone from carrying a firearm if they choose to do so.'
+p9231
+aS'I think that case was in Georgia (a different state) and so far as I know homosexuality was not involved. However if you want to worry about a legal case you need to look at Dover Pa. Not the sticker case in Cobb County.'
+p9232
+aS"That was the past. I'm speaking of now."
+p9233
+aS'And what does Marc do?   Try to change the subject.'
+p9234
+aS'Yet this need for revenge is far removed from the need for justice. My original post addresses this feeling or need for the criminal to die. It has no relevance in the discussion of justice, only revenge.'
+p9235
+aS'And it also took an amendment to give the slaves rights, not a judge.'
+p9236
+aS'Certainly it does.'
+p9237
+aS"I know ... I know. I agree with you that it's sad more of those people couldn't or didn't take advantage of concealed carry to help prevent so many deaths. That needs to change along with education so more people can defend themselves."
+p9238
+aS"Isn't agreeing with what? The senate hasn't passed any laws that would restrict right to carry anymore than it already is."
+p9239
+aS"Because feeling safe isn't the same as being safe.   The people on the airplanes of September 11th felt safe just before the terrorists took over. The Virginia Tech victims felt safe before they knew about the killer that managed to slaughter 32 innocents. Everyone involved in any major massacre has always had plenty of reason to feel safe right up until the killings took place. But the fact remains that none of them were safe. If they were safe then they wouldn't have gotten killed.   Feeling safe is nothing more than a false sense of security that can be destroyed at any given moment. I'd rather not be a victim of some violent incident and mistakenly believe that it could never happen to me.   I'd rather actually being safe as opposed to just feeling safe. Feeling safe is just that: just a feeling, it's not anything tangible, it's not something that will do you any good if somebody decides that you're going to be their next target."
+p9240
+aS'Because it shows that Ockham was arguing against what Hi_Its_Me says the Razor is.'
+p9241
+aS"Actually there are already a couple floating around. One fascinating one: Gaia theory and the Daisyworld model. It's all around self-organising systems and the earth as a self-regulating system/organsism/something or other. James Lovelock and co. Interesting to read but sometimes feels a little too 'lets-all-just-get-along' to be real, hard-core theory.   Either way, it's probably a lot more likely to be accepted than creationism, should evolutionism for some reason be disproved."
+p9242
+aS"And who makes the decision, Rich? That's the issue, as I see it. I don't believe the government has any business in a woman's body."
+p9243
+aS"I don't get you here."
+p9244
+aS"Oh, we don't have to - sorry, I wasn't clear enough there. What I'm trying to do is correct your misapprehensions concerning common descent. You said this:"
+p9245
+aS'Because everyone is equal in the eyes of the law, and rightly so. As for moral standing, you see no problem with equating his immoral behaviour with your own response. Most would.'
+p9246
+aS"You're right, I think he has made such comments. Sorry. I think he's wrong and went too far."
+p9247
+aS"You could try to be a good person and nevermind about the hocus pocus stuff. I'm not tryimg to convince you of anything. The fact is that what you use a reasons to believe don't hold up under logical scrutiny. Don't justify faith with logic. That only cheapens faith."
+p9248
+aS'Why not? You said yourself kalifornia was a "trend setter". It is alread the law in many states.'
+p9249
+aS'So your only link to gay rights and polygamy is a statement put out by a gay rights conference 30 years ago that does not EXPLAIN a link to polygamy, but shows it\'s support for it?   Hn ...   I\'m with Justine on this one. This is a bit of a stretch.   It would be like me implying that your support for "traditional marriage" also supports spousal abuse just because marriages in the past allowed for wife beatings.'
+p9250
+aS"You twisted logic strikes again. I realise that if a group of you were to take your guns and rise up against the current administration, you would all be labelled terrorists. This is not evidence that I support the current regime. How you could twist it to seem so is beyond me.   If I were to state that you couldn't take on a fully grown polar bear with just a short pointy stick, would that mean I am supporting the oppressive rule of polar bears? I think you should sit down and carefully think out what you infer from other's arguments before you keep coming out with these ludicrous statements."
+p9251
+aS"I wouldn't say most cjurches, because you cannot prove that. There is a long list of churches that are accepting of gay folks."
+p9252
+aS'Please off one scientific piece of evidence in support of biblical creation.'
+p9253
+aS'Well, man might someday gain the capability of fully synthasizing a molecule as complex as DNA from scratch. Of course, he would use the knowledge gained from studying how various DNA codes affect natural biological characteristics in order to properly design that DNA to achieve the desired characteristics. It might be even more difficult to then take that synthesized DNA and put it in an egg and artificial womb that has no natural (as opposed to artificial) biological parts, but even that might be achievable someday through chemical construction. All this means is that humanity might someday be able to copy the methods of nature to create a new being - perhaps even use creativity to create beings of very different natural functions than we see in our world.   It is all interesting to think about and could well be achievable within this century. We already are capable of a large degree of genetic manipulation through cloning and hybridization. One would think that it will only be a matter of time before more complex technologies get developed.   The other question, of course, is - If we could someday create new life using our technology, should we? That would bring up a whole host of issues, including:   - Would we know what we were doing well enough not to cause great harm?   - How would the beings we create be treated?'
+p9254
+aS"But I would have been interested in hearing how you explained the above points. My post was a quick hack job, looked up in a few books that I have along with stuff that I remember from my reading. I may have made an error and would be interested in hearing about it. Maybe I can defend my point of view, maybe I can't.   If you put time and effort into a response, why delete it. Redundant posts happen. ss/ww won't pay attention anyway and maybe he would respond to you. He runs from me because he always seems to make himself look like a fool and he realizes it."
+p9255
+aS'What else is new?'
+p9256
+aS'So please, feel free to leave this thread to those who DO wish to discuss the issue. No one is forcing you to discuss the topic of this or any other thread. I notice you evidently are not interested in "Understanding "Sexual Prejudice"" That is absolutely fine with me.   Or are you now opposed to "Freedom of Speech" also?'
+p9257
+aS'Monty babbles:   Again Monty has shown that he doesn\'t bother to learn what he is talking about before he speaks. It is not true that science has "found" the mitochondrial Eve, nor is it true that it shows that one person can have all the DNA necessary for all the variation in human population. Both ideas are ridiculous in the extreme. The mitochondrial (note spelling monty) Eve is a mathematical concept. If the estimates of the mutation rate of mitochondrial DNA are correct, then she lived about 200,000 years ago or so.   And of course, the variation in human populations is carried by the nuclear DNA, not the mitochondria. High school biology students know this. And, of course, recent analysis has shown that every gene in the human genome has an average of 14 alleles. Since a single person can carry only two alleles of any gene, monty\'s assertion becomes pure nonsense.   Hank says:   Really? When and by whom? I wasn\'t even aware that it was an hypothesis but simply a mathematical concept derived from the mutation rate of the mitochondrial DNA. Possibly the time has been adjusted due to differing estimates of the mutatiion rate, but the concept is valid.   Here is some information. Monty, I would recommend that you read the books suggested so that you might gain some understanding of what you are discussing. You continue to make yourself look foolish. River out of Eden is a good, basic introduction to the main concepts of evolutionary biology.   For information on Mitochondrial Eve see What, if anything, is a Mitochondrial Eve?'
+p9258
+aS"Not entirely true. While we can't disprove that God created the universe, we can disprove many creationist claims. For example, we can disprove that the earth is 6000 years old."
+p9259
+aS'It is rather disrespectful but don\'t think it is limited to one side. Most protestors on both sides aren\'t great.   one thing did spark my interest, and it is said often, why is it a "hard decision" if you are pro-choice? Is it hard because you don\'t know if you want a baby around or not? Couldn\'t this decision be just as hard before being pregnant? Even so, why link it to going to an abortion clinic? You hear "It was hard enough to come to this decision in the first place" but how is going through some protestors making this decision harder?   No one would admit to this but it is statements like "It was hard enough to come to this decision in the first place" that make me believe that someone realizes it is wrong and the struggle that makes it hard is whether or not to do the right thing or do they thing that would benefit you the most. And in that case, I agree...that can be a tough decision.'
+p9260
+aS'Microevolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia'
+p9261
+aS"Who's this directed at? Me or Ray?"
+p9262
+aS"Apparently, all them dinosaurs were just too dumb to climb to higher ground or swim (despite the fact that animals are among the first to do so in disasters - example would be the tsunami in Christmas 2004) All of this also avoids the flying reptiles such as the Pteranodons.   Also, apparently humans are unique in that they are the only ones whose corpses bload and float to the water's surface.   What garbage will they come up with next?"
+p9263
+aS"Actually, I don't have any respect for creationism in most of it's varied forms. I have had great respect for several individual creationists that I have met. But they earned that respect."
+p9264
+aS'Better is worse? See above.'
+p9265
+aS"I think they should. I mean, if you're under 18, you are still under your parent's guardian. I feel like they have the right to know if their child is getting an abortion."
+p9266
+aS'I will not give up my right to vote. I will not give up my firearms. I consider people taking my right to firearms as dangers as people trying to take away my right to vote.   In other places around the world, firearms are much more important than the right to vote. There are people around the world trying to get a chance to vote by using firearms to establish a system where they can use the right to vote.   For self-preservation? I will use a bazooka if there is tank comming down the street. The immediate threat I am thinking of is a felon with bare hands on parole. That is exactly what the anti-gunners are trying to limit me from doing. Limit my right to self-preservation from a felon on parole. If you read the other threads, especially from VOR, you will see he is about confiscation not gun regulation. I have asked many anti-gunners about confiscation, when they point to models of UK and Austraila I shudder. Those countries are not about regulation, they are about confiscation.'
+p9267
+aS"No, they're the same species. If you put all these fish in the same pool at the end they would all breed with each other. The example wasn't of speciation, merely of a change in a population driven by the environment, which is the essense of evolution."
+p9268
+aS"You think so? Then accept my terms. Go ahead. See if you're right."
+p9269
+aS'And yet I alread showed what the "moral code" of atheistic societies has done for the world:   II 128,168,000 VICTIMS: THE DEKA-MEGAMURDERERS   4. 61,911,000 Murdered: The Soviet Gulag State   5. 35,236,000 Murdered: The Communist Chinese Ant Hill   6. 20,946,000 Murdered: The Nazi Genocide State   7. 10,214,000 Murdered: The Depraved Nationalist Regime   III 19,178,000 VICTIMS: THE LESSER MEGA-MURDERERS   8. 5,964,000 Murdered: Japan\'s Savage Military   9. 2,035,000 Murdered: The Khmer Rouge Hell State   10. 1,883,000 Murdered: Turkey\'s Genocidal Purges   11. 1,670,000 Murdered: The Vietnamese War State   12. 1,585,000 Murdered: Poland\'s Ethnic Cleansing   13. 1,503,000 Murdered: The Pakistani Cutthroat State   14. 1,072,000 Murdered: Tito\'s Slaughterhouse   IV 4,145,000 VICTIMS: SUSPECTED MEGAMURDERERS   15. 1,663,000 Murdered? Orwellian North Korea   16. 1,417,000 Murdered? Barbarous Mexico   17. 1,066,000 Murdered? Feudal Russia'
+p9270
+aS"Your stats aren't broken down into meaningful groups, so nothing is learned WRT Muslims."
+p9271
+aS"Exactly.   It seems that anyone can dream up hypotheses in evolutionary psychology.   Here's what Coyne said:"
+p9272
+aS'Give it a rest... what is evident here is more coffeehouse vasilation on your part... no foam.'
+p9273
+aS'Well, really, they both compensate and reciprocate for one another, you could say.'
+p9274
+aS"But they didn't have sexual relations. This was from a sperm bank- there was nothing that made the two people create one being.   Nonetheless, this is a side issue for future debates. My main point is homosexuality is a disorder that the government shouldn't be condoning. The government obviously doesn't condone pedophilia, poligamy, and incest. Why is the government condoning homosexuality?"
+p9275
+aS'That was a nice rant that had absolutely nothing to do with anything. The essential question is not what various religous leaders have said about the issue, but what the Bible says about the issue.'
+p9276
+aS"And what would make them separate species? How about wolves and dogs, separate species? How about Great Danes and Chihuahuas? They cannot interbreed under any circumstances (even artificially - the fetus isn't viable)."
+p9277
+aS'and a quote from jitobear:'
+p9278
+aS'That and VOR keeps flip flopping on his positions and he refuses to clarify his contridictions.'
+p9279
+aS'Again with the common sense, but that is another issue alltogether. You\'re arguement that the brain is a fundamental unit of life is just plain wrong, considering the majority of all organisms don\'t have one. Bacteria, Protists, Plants, Fungi, and some animals are all without brains. Brains are required for motion and fast response to immediate changes in environment, for example a falling rock. Brains cluster nerves so that appropriate action can be taken. Some brains are amazingly simple while others like our own are immensly complex.   Your arguements all show a general lack of study in biology and my common sense is appalled by yours. I am reminded of Bill Maher who once said about the intelligent design debate: "Because you don\'t have to teach both sides of an arguement when one side is retarded."'
+p9280
+aS'I responded to your posts on the thread of "Lets discuss the actual..." I suggest we continue that discussion there.'
+p9281
+aS'Are you sure? Use your google.'
+p9282
+aS"Well, your reasoning is certainly muddled, and it seems to be confused with some sort of twisted socio-political agenda, but I don't think I would characterize your piece a filthy collage. But you can call you stuff what you want."
+p9283
+aS'You know that, I know that, but the creationists do not know that.'
+p9284
+aS'Notice that nowhere here do you address the claims and evidence -- which the movie apparently lacks -- about the assertions of "the expelled." Trying to deflect attention from your inability to respond substantively won\'t fly with us; these guys are fudging the stories and sharing only selected pieces in a specific attempt to hide what really happened.   For what it\'s worth, I feel a hell of a lot more vulnerable as an atheist in my profession and location than IDers should feel in research and teaching academia.'
+p9285
+aS'I believe that\'s true, and as a "believer" (creationist), here is what is hard to understand about that; In Matthew, 12:30, Jesus says "He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters". It is safe to say that both creationists and theistic evolutionists would accept that statement from Jesus, and would seek to be "with" him, while agnostic and atheists would consider themselves "not with" him. Yet theistic evolutionists are comfortable to (usually politically) be "with" agnostics and atheists, and separate themselves from creationists. If they\'re genuine Christians, knowing about the warnings in the Bible about false teachings, how can they be comfortable with that?   Miller laments in several places throughout the book that atheists use evolution as a weapon against religion, and that it shouldn\'t be that way - that it causes more strife between the two than should exist.'
+p9286
+aS"Honestly I'm not sure if it was ever said in the Bible, but I sure have heard a lot of the Bible thumpers saying free will is a gift from God."
+p9287
+aS'You may see a vast differene, many do not. The "moral" grounds for many is simply the justification for their homophobia.   So now it\'s a massive nation wide government conspiracy to stifle free speech?   Canada stifles and oppresses religious freedom?   Honestly Jyoshu, where do you get this stuff?   This is utter BS, if you can find ANY proof of the Canadian gov\'t stifling free speech on this issue, religious freedom, or any other issue for that matter, please post it. If not, retract your BS statement, and admit that it\'s a fabrication.   I honestly don\'t think I underestimate it at all. I come across a very broad spectrum of people in my line of work, from one end of the scale to the other. The most common negative response I get is from those that are opposed to homosexuality in general and respond along the lines of "I don\'t like, I don\'t want to see it, but rights are rights, as long as it doesn\'t negatively affect me, I don\'t have a problem with it/I don\'t really care." I have come across a couple of people who were strongly opposed to the use of the term "marriage" but were fine with allowing homosexual "civil unions".   I think you overestimate how big of a "moral issue" this really is for most people.   Waxy'
+p9288
+aS'No. We don\'t agree. For one thing your faith isn\'t a theory. Creation as described in Genesis is a myth, in fact, two myths. Furthermore, a scientific theory doesn\'t mean "wild guess with no foundation". That seems to be what you want the word to mean. In science a theory is an explanation for observed facts that has been tested. You see, a theory is predictive. I\'ll give you some examples of scientific theories. The germ theory of disease, the theory of gravitation, the heliocentric theory, tectonic theory, atomic theory.   Moreover, you are wrong that science cannot observe actual evolution of life. It is done all the time. While it may be debatable that a virus is alive, the recent case of SARS making the jump from civets to humans after a mutation is evolution.'
+p9289
+aS'Holy grail implies it is like a religion, which it is not. If evidence is found that overturns this theory, it will be discarded in favour of a better one.'
+p9290
+aS"You don't beleive that it is possible to do something wrong to prevent a larger number of wrongs in the future? Do you think the ends can ever justify the means?"
+p9291
+aS'Things like future proof of a young earth - evolution needs billons of years. Or proof of severe weather conditions that would destroy the evolutionary process. Life on earth dies completely if it gets out of a fairly narrow temperature range, any time during those billions of years.'
+p9292
+aS'Then show the evidence.'
+p9293
+aS"No, but the Roman persecution of Christians, covering Christians in pitch, Roman garden parties, witnesses for Christ being killed for their faith etc. is as irrelevant as it gets. Just be careful, that's all I'm saying. There is a place for that topic."
+p9294
+aS'And religion is what caused the Crusades and most other wars in the past, and many wars, and bloody disputes, to this very day. Many, many, many, many, many more people have died in the name of religion than in anything that could be called "in the name of atheism".'
+p9295
+aS'Old news. There have been accusations of similar stories for years.'
+p9296
+aS"So there's no need to be outraged or question a candidate further just on the basis that he represents the lesser-of-two-evils to you? You're using the fact Palin is there to avoid needing to take Biden to task for HIS statements. If, hypothetically speaking, Palin wasn't there at all and Biden had made the statement alone in a stump speech, you would just leave it at that and not take him to task for his position???   Frankly, if he's the candidate you feel best supports gay rights, I would think this statement on his part would be MORE alarming, and all the MORE cause for concern.   So Biden was against gay marriage there too?   If he's against your right to marriage, knowing why might very well give insight into whether he would change on it at some point or actually be anti-gay in OTHER ways too! Frankly, I find this idea of not probing further to at least try to get some insight into motivations on issues to be pretty odd, let alone not criticizing someone for an anti-gay view just because the other candidate is more anti-gay."
+p9297
+aS"Man, these guys can't even get into the science before they're outright lying..."
+p9298
+aS'If this is what passes for American healthcare, then your need for change is even more desperate. None of these "treatments" is available on the NHS.'
+p9299
+aS"Yes, it is human, biologically. However, it isn't a human being as it isn't alive."
+p9300
+aS'Well sigma, which is more painful??   Being burnt with salene for 30 minutes to an hour and if that doesnt work after the 3rd time, being born prematurally and laid on a table and starving to death.....   OR   A woman sticking a clothes hanger up and accidentally killing herself but intentionally killing the kid within her?   seems to me that people dont really care about how the baby feels. It has just as much feeling as the mother.'
+p9301
+aS"Humm. More guns, more Concealed Carry and Violent Crime and Murder is down to it's lowest levels since they started to record it. So how can these studies be credible or considered in anyway correct."
+p9302
+aS'Ok, now show your evidence. If you have any, that is.'
+p9303
+aS'Well! I guess that just showed you guys. It seems that HeavenBound thinks that having a closed mind is a bad thing. And yet,'
+p9304
+aS"It's NOT any of my business, but when presenting information to the readers at large, such topics need to be ####ing addressed, something militant pro-abortionist seldom want to bring up.   I'm actually happy that you had a good operation and think more should go into ensuring ALL women have the same low risk proceedures when necessary.   We're dealing with health aspects, all, not just selective. And there may even be things I'm not aware about to consider."
+p9305
+aS'Well, you will find claims amoung this group that \'If Jews understood their own scriptures, they would accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior\', and "Christians are fullfilled Jews".'
+p9306
+aS"So umm. What's going on? This was posted a week ago plus about 4 hours ago. I frankly don't care if my opponent posts a day late and would hate to win because of time. BUT the first post was even easier, he could have been typing it as we found judges and I think he mentioned he had started already. I PMed him earlier this week reminding him of the limit and have not recieved a response. Of course maybe the fact that he hasn't logged on since 11/14 has something to do with that."
+p9307
+aS"Guess what, I'm pro-life as well, that is why I'm also pro-choice."
+p9308
+aS'Generally, when someone posts an article without a disclaimer, they agree with the findings and the reasoning of the article provided.   Besides, your statement does not change the fact that the reasoning provided is foolish.'
+p9309
+aS'You know what they call people like you?   Victims.'
+p9310
+aS'Really? What evidence is that?'
+p9311
+aS'I would say that the soul is that part of us that is immortal. It is our essence. Our personality may impact or is impacted by it, but I would say it is far more. Indeed, I would say it is what psychologists call emergent downward causality.   As for the role of God, science has not disproven any of it. Science has explained how things occur but that does not eliminate the possibility of god nor does it limit what god does. We would simply not be understanding gods fit in the science of it. That makes sense given that god is considered infinite and we are finite. I think the soul is what gives us the possibility of even imagining the infinite. The idea that we can see beyond what we are or even to conceptualize such things gives a clue that there is more to us than meets the eye.   I do not see why God and science cannot coexist. Even evolution and creation. Forget planting evidence. That is too far fetched. I would rather think that it is more likely that what God says actually fits the evidence even though we cannot understand it. I do not know about God or "not god" (if you will) but if there is a God then the idea that he is beyond what I can actually conceive and yet completely conceivable makes sense for that kind of being. It should be an apparent paradox to me. If it is not, then my concept of God is faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr to small to be of any use to anyone.   Huck.'
+p9312
+aS'Evolution theory is not science at all, it is faith. Period.   How can I conclude that? Because an examination of the evidence shows that a bias/ ideology/ Godless belief system is the only real evidence for evolution theory:   evolutionist Stephen Jay Gould: ?Our ways of learning about the world are strongly influenced by the social pre-conceptions and biased modes of thinking that each scientist must apply to any problem.?   Evolutionary biologist Richard Lewontin said: ?we have a prior commitment to materialism. It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive?Moreover, that materialism is an absolute, for we cannot allow a divine foot in the door.?'
+p9313
+aS'Theres a book my mom has called "The trouble with Islam" by some lady. I don\'t know her name, but it looks like it may bee a good book for you.'
+p9314
+aS'And how is this a bad thing?'
+p9315
+aS'Mormons believe that Satan is the brother of Jesus.'
+p9316
+aS"Good old monkeys! What can't we learn from them   Since we are in the Creation vs Evolution section I'm guessing that your debate here is that monkeys and humans show some similar ways of thinking such as in this experiment. It does seem like further evidence that evolution did take place between our two species although it isn't a case cracker by any means."
+p9317
+aS"Well, your parents' parents also had parents who had parents who had parents which all streams back down to 2 people who God created...adam and eve. so ultimately your life is a gift from God because the whole human race was created by Him."
+p9318
+aS"There's a distinct difference... so what? No baby at any age can live outside the womb. It still needs care and attention like any other. This difference in age doesn't mean anything."
+p9319
+aS'Having human DNA does not necessarily make one a human being. Transgenic animals can have human DNA, does that make them human beings.'
+p9320
+aS"But wouldn't it make it more likely that a gun dealer that was involved in gun trafficking would be audited and caught by the ATF? If there are less FFLs then the ATF has more time to monitor and inspect each gun dealer."
+p9321
+aS"You know Brady, you've said a lot of stupid stuff over the years. I even remember finding a post of yours where you said all guns and gun owners should be registered, but sex offenders shouldn't be.   This latest post of yours is just another senseless and stupid rambling of somebody that's so hateful and fearful of an inanimate object that it's impossible for him to function in our society and can barely handle his own needs."
+p9322
+aS'Well, if burglars want to steal guns then it makes sense that they would be likely to target the homes of gun owners. And the source is from the recently published book Evaluating Gun Policy which you can read and review. The source is listed at the bottom.'
+p9323
+aS'You did when you talked about someone loving objects, or a mokey, etc.'
+p9324
+aS"Why would they be useless? They aren't useless on birds? And how is this qustion different in any meaningful way from the above? Aren't wings forelimbs with feathers? It seems that soaring or gliding or even faster running would be extremely useful."
+p9325
+aS"I know this is an old posting, but I thought I would add to it. I have built several 1911 clones. Press forge the frame (and slide, sometimes), then mill the parts. I use a CNC mill (about $750,000). A lot fo guys, though, use a $300 minimill from harbor freight. A setup for press forging the parts (press forging is the better modern alternative to drop forging) will set you back less than $200, if you are a good scrounger.   Gun building is probably a more common hobby than you might think. It is hard to tell exactly how many people are doing it, because a homebuilt gun requires no registration, permit to build, or any of that other XXXX (unless you are building an NFA firearm, which is a machine gun). There is even a yahoo group about building your own gun. Fro the faint of heart (those who don't want to forge or cast theri own reciver/frame) there are a bunch of places that will sell you an 80% finished reciever, which doesn't count as a firearm from a legal viewpoint.   I always buy my barrels since it is too much work to do the rifling. In a pinch, it could be done, it just wouldn't be a competition grade barrel. Of course, most firearms you buy don't come with a stock competition grade barrel."
+p9326
+aS'But we certainly have the right to evict such persons.   But then, regardless, the embryo is not a person.'
+p9327
+aS"Well, that's generally true of any process that uses energy. Some is wasted."
+p9328
+aS'the reason why premise 1 can logically stand is that God is first of all defined as the "greatest possible being". no matter what reality we are considering, such a thing as the greatest possible being in that relity must exist. "greatest" is a superlative, compared to all other beings that exist   its like "the oldest man alive". no matter what scenario, such a person as the oldest man alive will always exist, therefore such a man (that fits that definition) will have a necessary existence'
+p9329
+aS'The 2020 Global Food Outlook answers this as it says that a greater demand for vegetables will correspond with higher prices of vegetables in developing countries. Many articles acknowledge that starving people cannot afford much of any of the food for sale around them, and a greater demand for meat does not necesarily mean a decrease in demand for vegetables as populations grow globally. Since increasing meat consumption is irrational because it will not feed the poor and it will do even more damage to the environment, again, the solution proposed is to support the initiative for developing nations to become more self-sufficient in growing plant foods for themselves.'
+p9330
+aS'So do you want to argue my points or do you want to argue me? Which of my bullits are wrong? Which of them are right?'
+p9331
+aS"Well, yeah, if science hasn't provided an explanation for a phenomenon, then all we can do is shrug and submit grant proposals."
+p9332
+aS'Well right there, you used an oxymoron, "Great" and "Evangelist" got together about as well as Military Inteligence.   Secondly, as I stated before...you left too many other questions unanswered about the "Preacher."'
+p9333
+aS'Why should I prove anything, you never do.'
+p9334
+aS"I think you need to look up euthanasia, and not only for the correct grammar. Those examples are not euthanasia. Abortion is not the same thing as euthanasia.   Why don't you just say what is on your mind, rather than setting these ham-handed traps you hope someone will fall into? It is clear what your opinion is. If you have something to say, by all means express yourself."
+p9335
+aS"Uh. No they didn't. Have you ever actually taken a biology course?"
+p9336
+aS'More likely the criminal will shoot first rather than give the other chap a chance.   There is no real reason for the average citizen to need or have a hand-gun'
+p9337
+aS'This remains unspecified. (I explained this in the last paragraph)'
+p9338
+aS'And those pillars will be replaced by something stronger like equality and Justice.'
+p9339
+aS"No it doesn't, as abortion WAS a legal option in this case.   This was not a legality issue, but an education issue."
+p9340
+aS'Actually it wasn\'t sitting somewhere since there was no "where" to "sit" and "always" and "eternity" have no meaning outside of time and no "time" existed prior to the "Big Bang", maybe.'
+p9341
+aS'Really, then show me how I\'m wrong - without dogmatic statements. I would suggest, given the fact that you feel the need to ignore science, deny obvious facts of reason, and cling to evolutionary theory, that it is you that has the problem with religion - your naturalistic religion. I would further suggest that you stop attibuting your personal opinions to science, and start calling your comments what they really are, personal opinion.   -By the way, is everyone who disagrees with you promoting a "religious agenda?" Where have I leaned on religion to make my point? And what makes you think that I need religion to defeat your postion as I have here? I\'ve used science, scientific journals, and good sound reasoning to defeat your comments. I suggest you rethink what you\'re saying. It sure sounds like you\'re the one with the "religious agenda."'
+p9342
+aS'Well, to say it has no mental existence doesn\'t really tell the whole story. The fetus WILL have (more than likely) full mental existence in a very short time. It seems to me that if you "view humanity with mental existance as important" you\'d also view as important that the unborn baby WILL indeed reach that point, in all likelihood.'
+p9343
+aS'would this be considered intelligent design? to me it would be like winding up a top, loading it with paint, and then letting it spin on paper to create a painting. the process is deliberately set in motion, but the painting itself is random and not deliberate. where the paint falls is not by design, even though the overall pattern would be.   anyway, to answer the question, there are lots of people who believe in a creator as well as evlution, so the beliefs are not mutually exclusive. the problem is that christianity depends upon the account of genesis being true. spontaneous origin is mutually exclusive to genesis, but evolution by itself is not necessarily. but evolution poses other problems such as the age of the earth and the existence of dinosaurs that creationists are stumped by.   in order to belief in evolution, you must, at the very least, disregard the genesis account. and disregarding genesis automatically invalidates christianity. but it doesnt necessarily invalidate the existence of a creator. pretty wierd, huh?'
+p9344
+aS'Well, ya know, if you actually, oh I don\'t know, VISITED THE SITE, you\'d see that the "friendlyatheist.com" is a blog-like page (and not the one that is actually giving the info on the evolutionary migration of humanity) and it gave a link to the actual website that we are talking about (the second link I gave): http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/journey/   But then, maybe we\'re expecting a little too much from a creationist.'
+p9345
+aS"think about what you just typed, that doesn't make any sense."
+p9346
+aS"Obviously not. If the right to life trumps all other rights, then it follows that the mother's right to life and the child's right to life cancel each other out.   Mind you, if it's her choice then the pro-life movement endorses such heroism, right?"
+p9347
+aS"Apologies, that wasn't my intention. My meaning was this; while it was your conclusion, your use of it as an unsupported 'fact' forced us to treat it as an assumption. We had no way by which we could make it a conclusion - that's the purpose of this thread!"
+p9348
+aS'Well, thank you for this thread Santafeur. I must say though that I peruse various threads just to read stuff. The C vs. E topic does not strike a nerve with me.   In fact, I also wonder what it is about the human mind that makes people so desperate to want to know how we came about. What difference does it make? We are here now. Could we possibly just accept that we got here somehow, and just move on?'
+p9349
+aS"That's the thing, though; even a self-professed non-expert can perfectly well refute the ridiculous points supersport continually spouts. supersport, on the other hand, doesn't know any better."
+p9350
+aS'In this case, I will present the Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection as evidence that life is evolving. As the evidence has been shown to support it, you are the person who should be presenting evidence. Currently, your assertion that organisms are "devolving" because of mutations has been shown to be faulty.'
+p9351
+aS'You are correct.'
+p9352
+aS'But I don\'t hear you saying things like "baseball is always harmful to the player" or "baseball is something no one should have to go through."   You see, if pro-choicers only used the \'pregnancy-is-bad-if-forced argument, they might have a point, but they often don\'t add the last part.   Besides, no one ever forces a woman to get pregnant in the first place.'
+p9353
+aS"Read above for why your argument sucks.   Thanks for proving you never ever ever read anything or watch anything given to you.   Just assume whatever we want and hope people don't laugh at us?"
+p9354
+aS"Because self-defence, unlike most other 'reasons', automatically allows all citizens firearm access, and in most cases allows firearm acess without mandatory training/evaluation. When this occurs, you are much more likely to get misuse of firearms.   If you read around you'll see that I consider all rights as needing justification. This comes both from my stance as a relativist and as a UK citizen, where there is no formalised Constitution. Ask yourself this - if a right cannot be justified, why should it be treated as a 'right'?"
+p9355
+aS'17-'
+p9356
+aS'Yes.   (and this is to add stuff to make the post stick....)'
+p9357
+aS"Actually, I snipped your remarks because 1) you twisted what I said and 2) I'm already spending too much time arguing with random complainers and I was in a hurry to do something more important at the time."
+p9358
+aS'(Note the key word "also," which admits that it\'s human).   As for the rest, This is more of the sort of "defensive rationalization" I talked about earlier, i.e. when people find it more rewarding to self-righteously defend their wrongdoings and thus shirk their responsibility to others, than to shoulder the burdens to those they have harmed, and thus they act in self-absorbed narcissism and sociopathic dissociation, while likewise waxing arrogant in self-deceiving affirmation of their own "brilliance" and other superiority to do as they please, by simply denying said consequences however obvious-- illustrated here, by simply calling a fetus a "parasite" and thus daintily strutting off away from one\'s obvious duties to it, despite admitting it\'s also human.   However, a human being forced into dependency on another for its life, is not a "parasite," but a VICTIM, and thus has the right to aid from the ones responsible for that dependency.   Since you\'ve admitted that it\'s human, then the remainder is plain; it also has the right to aid from the one responsible for its dependency, i.e. the man and woman in question who proximately caused it to be in its dependent situation through their willful actions in full knowledge of that risk.   Here, the doctrine of Strict Liability would apply, in that normal sexual contact carries the inherent risk of pregnancy.   This doctrine already applies to men, and should likewise apply to women who choose to abort in spite of their responsibility to the prenatal human in question, created and made dependent on her for its life through her intentional actions.'
+p9359
+aS"It would be 'an' analogy, but like the language analogy, it has its limitations.   It is interesting to note that creationist computer software developers/programmers cannot seem to agree on the implications of 'mutations' when using such analogies - one such person, C.K. Lester, declared that computer programs can accumulate up to 30% 'random change', just like DNA (hypothetically) can, therefore, the computer analogy is a good one. But programmer R. David Pogge declares that even a single altered bit in a line of computer code a million bits in length would destroy it."
+p9360
+aS'Actually, submitting samples that will return bogus dates is dishonest. Creationists have done this several times.'
+p9361
+aS'I have no idea what this could possibly mean. It makes no sense, semantically or logically. It is so vague as a concept as to be worthless in terms of the pursuit of knowledge.'
+p9362
+aS'I believe studies have already been done on that subject.'
+p9363
+aS"I think if Islamic fundamentalism shows us nothing else it's that..."
+p9364
+aS'True, but what i was trying to state is that the bible has little to do with christianity if you dont believe in it. I know many christians who believe in god, and jesus etc, but think the bible is completely false, and is only a book of fables. Thats what i was trying to imply.'
+p9365
+aS'Certainly science has provided part of the answer with their finding of the Mitachondrial "Eve", suggesting that one person can have all the DNA necessary for all the variation in human populations.   One of the standard rebuttals you hear is "How did the Kangaroos get to Australia"? I don\'t know if that\'s covered in the Bible... if God transported them or not.'
+p9366
+aS"Except it's not. It's perfectly acceptable to morally disagree with drinking and smoking (and encourage others not to do it) and still believe others should have the freedom to choose for themselves.   chloe,"
+p9367
+aS"So you're admitting openly that what is a normal occurrence within the human species is offensive to you. That you find repulsive the very intimacy expressed by your own parents that led to your own existence. Do you see how that innate bitterness against the normal and right feelings that have led to the healthy continuation of the human race is ultimately anti-humanity? Why do you hate the normal propagation of our species Matt? Can't you see that if you were given the power to recreate the world in your image, then the world would cease to exist within one generation? No matter how pro-gay you are, how can you be so anti life in good conscience?"
+p9368
+aS"And why would I be anti Christianity when I am Christian?   Oh and by the way to who ever it was who said I don't believe in Jesus, or something to that extent, I never said anything to that extent, you just made up what you wanted and got mad about it. I believe in the teachings of Jesus. Yes I'm betting your asking me how I know about his teachings if I have never read the bible, My mom is someone who has re-read the bible like 6 or 7 times. So she's told me all about it, and what its supposed to teach us."
+p9369
+aS'Well ... I don\'t think it\'s a light choice for anyone. (Although I\'d imagine, for someone who might be developmentally disabled, for example, it might not mean as much. And I suppose some may not care at all.) I don\'t think it\'s a decision women necessarily struggle over, either, however. Nor should they. For many women, the course of action that they need to take is quite clear.   That is, whether or not someone \'should\' have a difficult time with this decision, I don\'t agree. And, I don\'t think women\'s motivations in getting abortions, or their personal behavior ITO becoming pregnant are anyone else\'s concern. Or even if they do have an abortion *blithely*. (Distinguishing from policies about public health education.)   I just think people have to do what\'s right for them. Finding that or reaching a decision -- well, people are different and have different lives. They have different understandings of biology, different health issues, different relationships, different economic positions, different religious views, or none at all. The circumstances around the pregnancy, different.   I don\'t agree with the "potentiality" issue either. If *someone* isn\'t there *yet*, they\'re not in existence, period. I think there\'s just an understandable human reaction to the beginning of life being taken. It\'s not "potential" life. It\'s life all right. But there\'s no individual except in our imaginations.   To me, viability, sentience, the development of the nervous system and the brain, and the experience of pain in a fetus during the third trimester begin to mark the ethical boundaries. But those, too, as indicators, are not absolute. And the woman comes first. It\'s between her and her physician. It\'s not my job to judge whether she suffered appropriately enough or not. And I don\'t think anyone should have go through any demonstrative motions one way or the other for the anti-abortion camp. It\'s none of their business.'
+p9370
+aS"Iangb, I would have thought that you would be intellectually honest enough to have (at least) accepted the fact that I have supported my claims.   I also thought that (by now) someone from your side of the abortion issue would step in (in this thread or by private message) and hold you to your claims of being 'intellectually honest.'   At this point, I actually have you questioning Planned Parenthood's definitions?   QUOTE;"
+p9371
+aS'Can I tidy up this leftover part...? Fractionally.'
+p9372
+aS"Cases v United States, 131 F. 2d 916 (1st Cir. 1942), cert. Denied sub nom., Velazquez v. U.S, 319 U.S. 770 (1943). Basically, The US Curcuit Court upheld that the Second Amendment didn't apply to weapons that couldn't be carried by an individual."
+p9373
+aS'Evolutionary scientists is a confusing term. A geochronologist might work out an age for a lava sample for example. Astronomers have also made comment on the age of the earth as have paleontologists studying certain fossils.   So why would no flood make radiometric much more likely to accurate as you say? Can we hear some specific detail on this as it is kinda significant to backing you your assumption.'
+p9374
+aS"This whole thing is simply an epistemological argument, for which there is no answer. What is the nature of knowledge? There are positivists (Abe here) and there are constructivists (what Abe says you have to be if you don't believe in god.) This is a metaphysical debate that is decades old and it simply depends upon your point of view for the purpose of the discussion at hand."
+p9375
+aS'Since when are profetallifers "reasonable people"?   How reasonable can it be for them to try to impose their particular answer to a metaphysical question on others who believe differently?'
+p9376
+aS"I think the OP said it pretty well. If an organism or cell can process information and then make decisions based on that information, that's intelligence."
+p9377
+aS"I believe that the vast majority of people, if they are well-informed about responsible sexuality, have access to contraception, and are of reasonably sound mind, would much prefer not to experience an abortion and would take precautions to avoid such a possibility.   It is rather tiresome to hear careless and irresponsible talk of whorish women who seek to become pregnant solely so that they may exercise their right to an abortion.   I have never met such a woman. To be sure, there are unbalanced individuals who are riddled with guilt over sexuality and these individuals are incapable of being sexually responsible. I don't associate with such people and since I have never encountered such a person, I must believe that this sort of person comprises a very small minority.   But with the amount of bluster and piffle to the contrary, I must wonder whether or not such blusterers have any connection at all to what really is."
+p9378
+aS"That's true, but how much have we actually learned, and how much have we theorized, with an atheist presupposition, the only presupposition currently allowed?"
+p9379
+aS'This joke is based on some reality, "the conquest of the North Pole is traditionally credited to Anglo-American Navy engineer Robert Edwin Peary, who claimed to have reached the Pole on April 6, 1909.   Anyhow, not all jokes are completely true, how many stand up comedians have you heard??? If you were to nit pick every joke out there (being politicaly correct etc) there would be no jokes left!'
+p9380
+aS"Actually, Peeling and others on this thread have proven you and Cash to be utterly wrong. The fact you don't recognize this is irrelevant."
+p9381
+aS'why the comparison of gun owners yo violent killers and serial rapists? What law have I broken? Since we are doing comparisons your anti-freedom agenda is very similar to the bazi gun control laws of the 1930s, it is like the jim crow laws of the US. Your agenda is one of racism. This is insulting, ignorant, and shows your true colors as an enemy of freedom.'
+p9382
+aS"Tell that to CDC pathologists. Or just read this post.   ETA: Alternatively, let's look at the logic in this way: because the field of quantum mechanics is useless for helping me describe classical physical systems, quantum mechanics must be wrong. I think this illustrates the fallacy satisfactorily."
+p9383
+aS"Paranoia is so ugly. It's not OK to teach scientific theory but it is OK to tell them that mythology is fact?"
+p9384
+aS'Mayabe this is a miniscule amount of suffering compared to what awaits you on the flipside. Weather it be an eternity of Bliss or agony and suffering. Who really knows. Mayabe those who have this happen to them have it coming to them?'
+p9385
+aS"But poetry will never be taken seriously in political decisions. Atheists have a lot to like in songofgenesis, don't they?   another quote"
+p9386
+aS'and how do you know this......oh I see...you said "I think"....but you don\'t really "know" what most Americans favor or don\'t favor...you just "think"'
+p9387
+aS'No, but in some cultures they mutilate them for meaningless tradition.'
+p9388
+aS'According to Gallup about 8% of the U.S. population is atheist. Another poll by CUNY found that 7.7% of those polled responded that they had no religion.'
+p9389
+aS"Look up the evolution of colour vision in primates. It's my personal favourite - but what do you think?"
+p9390
+aS'You know that what you call "immoralism" is my life. Why do you hate me so much that you would be willing to deny my the happiness that you take forgranted and as your due? You don\'t even know me yet you are willing to defame me just because I am different from you. I don\'t understand how I am running over you by living my life openly and wanting the same thing as you the right to consider whom I choose to be my family. If you have an opinion about gay rights thats fine. If you want to deny me the same rights, as you take for granted, because of your opinion and beliefs though laws then that is bigotry.'
+p9391
+aS'GOD was proved not to exist many years ago details if you wish.   GOD was proved to exist many years ago details if you wish.   IRAQ was proven many years ago to be a justifiable war.\\   IRAQ was proven many years ago to be a non-justifiable war.   And so it goes. Most such proofs are hot air, unsupported distrortions. Hovind is of course good at that particular game.'
+p9392
+aS"Well I ####,moan,and bitch about it to and I know I can't prove anything,but do'nt logic say an AK47 ASSAULT RIFLE not semi auto but the real deal is going to cost hundreds less south of their border,Know doubt the same for an M16.Also you don't have to worry about smuggling them in as much if at all.Besides it getting harder all the time to get your ASSAULT RIFLES(you know the full auto type)not to mention hand grenades and rpgs at your corner gun shop anymore.Oh yeah less not forget the gun shows,and all there loop holes.   Jus a thought."
+p9393
+aS'So redemption is not a possibility? They did their time, paid the penalty, and just want their rights as a citizen returned to them....l'
+p9394
+aS'Heart bypass, prostate cancer.......I have a couple of Canadian friends who needed those surgeries and one was told he had a 4 month wait and the other a 6 month wait so they both came down to Bellingham Wash and had the Surgery within 2 weeks............'
+p9395
+aS"So what? I don't care! Gun ownership is an individual right and that's the end of it! You don't have to exercise a right hundreds of thousands of times a year for it to be protected by the Constitution."
+p9396
+aS'and this:'
+p9397
+aS"That's simply not true;"
+p9398
+aS'Really? Intra-species evolution and inter-species evolution are one and the same?   *edit*   I was reading on micro-evolution in wikipedia, here is what they had to say...is this incorrect?   "Typically, observable instances of evolution are examples of microevolution; for example, bacterial strains that have become resistant to antibiotics. Because microevolution can be observed directly, both pro-evolution and some anti-evolution groups agree that it is a fact of life."'
+p9399
+aS'Tell me who directed it.'
+p9400
+aS'This is different than stating that abortion is the same, in principle, as killing a born child. We are back on the question of "Why would someone do this horrible thing" which pro-life people continually ask and has been answered in many ways by many people. There are many threads on the subject   That the fetus did not come into existance by it\'s own choice is really irrelevant. That it did not cause problems of it\'s own actions does not mean that it does not cause problems.'
+p9401
+aS'Actually, I believe it was a Reagan policy continued by both Bushes.'
+p9402
+aS'President Obama!? What did I win!?'
+p9403
+aS"And my interpretation of my writing is that I didn't mean that. Who has more authority?"
+p9404
+aS'And folks that refuse to see the legitimate ones put us all at risk. Touche.'
+p9405
+aS'Exactly. It is their fault, but they can do what they choose. It is punishment and you know it, and it is not your job to make sure no "irresponsible" pregnant woman goes unpunished.'
+p9406
+aS'Actually, if you bothered to pay any attention whatsoever, it actually goes against your point entirely. Just because WSM and I were both in "heterosexual" Style relationships, doesn\'t change the fact that both of us are indeed homosexuals and therefore proves that homosexuals do indeed have children, planned or not.   Mine too was kind of a suprise. I was on the "pill" but was also taking antibiotics at the time and for anyone who doesn\'t already know, antibiotics will completely cancel out the affects of the birth control pill. I was NOT aware of this at the time and low-and-behold I ended up pregnant with my son.   p.s. just for general information, I was not taking "the pill" for birth control reasons.   Not all women who are prescribed it are even sexually active at all. The birth control pill contains synthetic or naturally dirived female hormones, which for some women aids them in attaining a more regular period. Many women atheletes are prescribed birth control because being extremely athletic can disrupt, postpone or completely do away with a woman\'s natural cycle. Taking birth control helps to "normalize" female hormone levels. Such was my case.'
+p9407
+aS'Nearly all animal phyla* made their first appearance in the fossil record at essentially the same time, an interval of some 5 million years [ET**] (about 525 to 530 million years ago [ET**]) called the "Cambrian Explosion."51   Scientists have found that these early fossils exhibit more anatomical body designs than exist today, and that early animals, the trilobites, had eyes as fully developed as their counterparts today.38   Many of the Cambrian fauna, still survive today, all looking much like they did over 500 million [ET**] years ago. The prominent British evolutionist, Richard Dawkins, comments, "... [W]e find many of them already in an advanced state of evolution, the very first time they appear. It is as though they were just planted there, without any evolutionary history."51   Two places in the world that have an abundance of early (Cambrian) fossils; the Burgess Shale in the Canadian Rockies and the Chengjiang site in China.38   In Stephen J. Gould\'s popular book, Wonderful Life, he points out that the Burgess Shale Cambrian fossils include "a range of disparity in anatomical design never again equaled, and not matched today by all the creatures in the world\'s oceans."38   Further, these fossils contain some twenty to thirty kinds of arthropods*** that cannot be placed in any modern group. The modern arthropods, consisting of almost a million species, can all fit into four major groups. But "one quarry in British Columbia, representing the first explosion of multicellular life, reveals more than twenty additional arthropod designs." Today there are about 38 phyla in existence, but the Canadian, Chinese and other Cambrian sites reveal over fifty phyla.38   There has been a decrease in diversity (probably due to global catastrophes). This is the reverse of what evolutionary theory predicts.38   Besides diversity, the Burgess Shale shows exquisite detail, right down to "the last filament of a trilobite\'s gill," or the last meal in a worm\'s gut.38   The Chengjiang site has even greater detail, and is earlier. According to Paul Chien, the chairman of the biology department at the University of San Francisco, said the preservation is such that internal organs, nerves, and even the water ducts of jellyfish are observable.38   Researchers found striking similarities between the compound eyes of the Cambrian trilobites and those of modern insects. According to Riccardo Levi-Setti, "Trilobites could see in their immediate environment with amazingly sophisticated optical devices in the form of large composite eyes. ... The number of individual optical elements in the compound eye could vary from approximately one hundred to more than fifteen thousand in a single eye, a range not very different from that found in modern insects."38   The conclusion is that the eye, a complex visual system, was fully formed and functional extremely early in the fossil record. Obviously, this is not predicted by evolutionary theory.38   Until recently, the phylum of vertebrates had been considered a later arrival in evolutionary history. But not now! Even the vertebrate phylum now extends into the Cambrian period, especially with the recent discovery of two fossil fish in China.51   The two new fossils . . . from Chengjiang are the most convincing Early Cambrian vertebrates ever found. The insects and other land invertebrates are also a very important group, and these practically all seem to be living fossils.51   These complex animals were present at the beginning of multicellular life and did not appear later as is predicted by evolutionary theory.38   Evolution does not explain the abrupt appearance of complex forms of life early in the fossil record or these fossils\' unequaled diversity. The implication of the Cambrian explosion of diverse, fully functional, and multicellular life is that evolutionary theory is falsified.38   Life did not start out simple and evolve into more complex and diverse animals; it was complex and diverse right at the beginning. This contradiction between the fossil data and the predictions of evolutionary theory falsifies the theory.38   "The facts of paleontology seem to support creation rather than evolution. All the major groups of invertebrates appear suddenly in the first fossiliferous strata. (Cambrian) of the earth with their distinct specializations, indicating that they were all created at almost the same time." - David Enock Associate Professor of Biology. BS Yeshiva College, MS Hunter College50   Even George Gaylord Simpson, Harvard high priest of evolution had to admit, \xe2\x80\x9cIn spite of the examples, it remains true (as every paleontologist knows) that most new species, genera and families appear in the record suddenly, and are not led up to by known, gradual, completely continuous transitional sequences.\xe2\x80\x9d50   http://www.straight-talk.net/evolution/explosion.htm'
+p9408
+aS'People are protected by law from being harassed, assaulted and/or murdered because they are people. Not because they are a certain religion. Because they are people it would be wrong to allow such things.'
+p9409
+aS"Actually, most people do not hold the view that existing marriages should be dissolved. In Massachussetts, it's quite a minority view, almost as low as Bush's approval rating.   In any case, that is irrelevant. I was pointing out why someone might reasonably ask the question you consider so inappropriate. What I haven't seen, either from you or from any of the articles, was what the firefighter's answer was or why he refused to answer. From what I can tell from the scant coverage, he avoided answering but had no trouble discussing his political views. Odd, I think.. or just crappy coverage."
+p9410
+aS'OH? What U.S. Code governs that? What does it say?'
+p9411
+aS"You still don't get it. How many times does it have to be explained to you? Populations evolve. No change of any kind in a single organism is evolution. Evolution is the changes in the hereditary (genetic) makeup of populations over time.   You continue to display your ignorance. Evolution is a process that takes place in living things. Just because all of science contradicts your childish belief in mythology doesn't mean that all science is evolution. Because cosmology contradicts your mythology, it must be evolution. Because astronomy contradicts your mythology, it must be evolution. Because geology contradicts your mythology, it must be evolution.   And that is why creationists are such scary people. Their morality comes from a book and threats of eternal punishment. The fundamentalist christian morality is so shallow that they are unable to conceive that others can actually have a higher morality based on self respect.   And that is meaningless babble. Evolution is a process that has been observed whether you like it or not. It is not a moral statement nor is it a statement of faith. It does not deal with government, laws or culture. Whining about it won't change it."
+p9412
+aS'Yep, he dodged it again. Care to explain your views on Creation in the Tanakh for the folks here?'
+p9413
+aS"I'll have to apologize here, SoC. I confused you with another poster who also used Christ in his handle. You didn't run from the topic because you weren't the OP of that thread. Sorry about that.   If you'd still like to approach that thread, I'll respond and provide the link, but all readers should be clear that my accusation that SoC scampered away was mistaken, and any willingness to address the arguments would be solely to SoC's credit."
+p9414
+aS'Speaking of which, did you happen to see this image that someone kindly forwarded to me?   http://iowntheworld.com/blog/wp-cont...iew-lo-res.jpg'
+p9415
+aS'I see, thanks for answering my question.'
+p9416
+aS'Some apply logic, some do not. So much for contradictory thinking.   What evidence do you have that suggests logic exists outside of the human mind? Hold the mythology, please.   from infidels.org -   The Concise Oxford English Dictionary defines logic as "the science of reasoning, proof, thinking, or inference." Logic will let you analyze an argument or a piece of reasoning, and work out whether it is likely to be correct or not.   It\'s worth mentioning a couple of things which logic is not.   Firstly, logical reasoning is not an absolute law which governs the universe. Many times in the past, people have concluded that because something is logically impossible (given the science of the day), it must be impossible, period. It was also believed at one time that Euclidean geometry was a universal law; it is, after all, logically consistent. Again, we now know that the rules of Euclidean geometry are not universal.'
+p9417
+aS'To force women to have babys that they dont even want is even more "preposterous".'
+p9418
+aS"BWAHAHAHAHHAAH!   Innocent citizens are FIVE TIMES more likely to be mistakenly shot by a cop, than a cop even DELIBERATELY by a civilian!   Likewise, if my life is in danger, then I'm not really too worried about my lack of accountability to the person choosing to ENDANGER it; and I'm really sure if he's willling to commit armed murder then he's not too worried about misdemeanor gun-laws.   Psht, it's amazing how stupid, naive and arrogant these anti-gun XXXXXX are.   It's easy to get cute when someone ELSE'S life is on the line, but it's just plain evil to use the guns of the state, to take away someone ELSE'S guns and expose them to danger-- and particularly cowardly and hyopcrticial while cringing behind a safe neighborhood and lifestyle, while hiding from potential danger-- than shamelessly attacking those who simply fight BACK."
+p9419
+aS'as far as all observable evidence dictates, the laws of nature are what sustains the universe. there is not one single function of nature that isnt on "autopilot" as it were. that is, no function needed to sustain the universe occurs outside of natural law. what\'s more, nothing that defies natural law (whether universe-sustaining or not) ever occurs in observable reality   I\'m glad you responded Nu Leader. this is this issue that really hits the religion/science divide. as it is, God has been gradually and subliminally coralled in the spiritual realm. there is absolutely nothing in the physical and observable world that is a function of God, or a manifestation of supernatural power. in other words, in the realm of the physical, God has no turf. even if God does exist, he does not (and by biblical definition, cannot) physically manifest his being nor the effect of his power   this leaves us with the spiritual realm. this realm, whether it exists or not, does affect people. yet this realm is as elusive and intangible as God himself. the same realm that God is believed to abive and reign in, is said to be the same realm that humans enter only when they die. i have many thoughts about the effects of this spiritual realm on reality, but for now i think its sufficient to say that God is limited to the spiritual realm only'
+p9420
+aS'What do you mean by this? Could we not have the law treat under-18 capital offenders on an individual basis, determining whether the individual offenders in the individual cases were sufficiently developed?   Also, what would you say to the response that our current law provides that juveniles are sufficiently developed enough to have the responsibility, without parental involvement, to decide whether to obtain an abortion? Is it not a conflict to say juveniles should not be eligible for the death penalty because they are not morally developed enough, but at the same time say juveniles are morally developed enough to decide whether to obtain an abortion without involving their parents?'
+p9421
+aS'It would be a great scientific discovery.'
+p9422
+aS"Because the effectiveness of other methods don't come close to that of owning a gun for personal protection. If they did then the police wouldn't have guns because it would be redundant and not cost effective."
+p9423
+aS'But then it also doesn\'t answer the question "does anything exist", nor does it answer an infinite number of "existence" questions. Do "trolls" exist, follows the same reasoning. If you find one, they are no longer a fairy tale/imaginary creature, they are some organic life form that can be measured, tested, and quantified..i.e. no longer an imaginary creature. So they can no more be found than god.   So replace god/troll with an infinite number of other imaginary things and you\'ll see why the question "Does god exist?", has no real importance in the physical universe.   (does the tooth fairy exist, does a unicorn exist, do flying pigs exist, etc.)   In fact, I like that statement. The existence of god is not imporant...   Rather - the FAITH in god(s, etc.) is what is "important", and the thoughts most certainly exist in the physical world and have a measureable impact.   I think that\'s why I don\'t mind so much "religion" per se, it\'s the human condition that brings suffering, and uncertainty, into our lives and for some people, the feelings brought about by their faith seems to treat the condition. (the human condition also brings joy, love, etc., but I\'d like that without the pain personally)   I only mind it when things in the physical universe are "attacked" with the premise of belief in god(s), which is a waste of human energy...we have a limited time, don\'t spend it using fallacy to undermine those who are actually trying to build on the foundation of human knowledge. And any belief in something without evidence scares me if it becomes a driving force behind decisions.   ...she\'s a witch because she MADE the crops die...she must be burned.   ...he broke "god\'s" law and therefore must be guilty..   ...this is "god\'s" war..   Yeah, that still scares me. That\'s why I think, at least in the US, the seperation of church and state is so ridiculously important, and accepted. While there are fundamentalists that rail against it...it\'s hopefully obvious that with ~80% of the US believing in an imaginary "god", but also having a separation of church and state and the most generally advanced scienctific community in the world, then the two can obviously co-exist, and I\'d go so far as to say thrive as long as the line is drawn and not crossed.   I learned something in responding, thanks for the spark.   -Mach'
+p9424
+aS'Maybe you\'ll have to clear up the difference between "understanding" and "knowing." I know what I think the difference is, but I need to know what you mean when you say "I understand that there is definitely no god."   Personally, I understand that we have no verification one way or another.   All I know is that I don\'t know one way or the other.'
+p9425
+aS'To me, part of the point of the "please, no scripture" comment would be to forgo any insistence that we worship God just because the bible says to.   A person could insist that sons pay some form of homage / respect to their father on Father\'s Fay, but I would argue that it\'s not reasonable to do so in every case. For example, if the father was physically or sexually abusive, or the father abandoned his children, those would be reasons to fore-go any Father\'s Day formalities.   And "God" could be viewed as the absent father. Suppose we assume that he created the earth and life on the earth. What\'s his involvement been since then?   Should we worship him just because he\'s God?   Or, depending upon how one sees God, is God a being unworthy of worship and idolization?   And along those lines, utilizing the Bible as a reference could be a double-edged sword. The "God" of the Old Testament ordered slavery, misogyny, genocide, women as spoils of war, ...'
+p9426
+aS"Don't you think this would fit the 'Creationism is nothing but lie's thread a bit better? Although I notice The Skeptic making disparaging remarks about your examples, it seems he attacks you more than deal with the well documented   examples you have."
+p9427
+aS"Do me a favor. Write, in your own words, two paragraphs. One explaining the electromagnetic spectrum (and the visible spectrum's place in it), and one discussing rods and cones in the eyes."
+p9428
+aS"Microevolution has occured. Several times over and recorded in the lab and the natural world.   [quote] Give me one peer reviewed paper . Just one. Not the latest dogma from talk origins . 29 evidences for bs.[quote]   Huh. Guess you're wrong.   [quote]Talk Origins does your thinking not mine. Give me peer reviewed documents not the latest political/religious factions babblings. Of course they don't exist but how could they? [quote]   And how does that mean evolution is wrong and creation is correct?   You do realize that even if you somehow manage to prove evolution false (not likely), you are still miles from proving creation right?"
+p9429
+aS'Because their properties are contradictory.'
+p9430
+aS'He was using it as an example. He was saying that if something in your life causes you to sin, get rid of it!   BTW, thanx for giving me the references to your verses! It is really annoying to have to search through the Bible to find verses that people quote without references.'
+p9431
+aS"The thing is, Bush didn't live in Canada."
+p9432
+aS'By removing you mean Killing the innocent of course, which is different to imprisonment of the criminal.'
+p9433
+aS"Jurassic Theropods like Compsognathus had hollow bones.   http://www.cbv.ns.ca/marigold/histor...gnathuspic.jpg   Therepodian dinosaurs show clear general skeletal affinities with modern birds such as long limbs, hollow bones, foot with 3 toes in front and 1 reversed toe behind and a long ilium.   Coelophysis, from the late Triassic was one of the first theropod dinosaurs.   Deinonychus and Oviraptor from the late Triassic to the Cretaceous were bipedal advanced theropods, larger, with more bird-like skeletal features: semilunate carpal, bony sternum, long arms and reversed pubis. Striking detailed similarity to birds.   There is a gap in the fossil record here although Protoavis could belong here, unfourtunately, the fossil is poor.   Archaeopteryx from 225 Ma, shows a mosaic of reptilian and avian features, with the reptilian features predominating. The skull and skeleton are basically reptilian (skull, teeth, vertebrae, sternum, ribs, pelvis, tail, digits, claws, generally unfused bones). Bird traits are limited to an avian furcula (wishbone, for attachment of flight muscles; recall that at least some dinosaurs had this too), modified forelimbs, and -- the real kicker -- unmistakable lift-producing flight feathers. Archeopteryx could probably flap from tree to tree, but couldn't take off from the ground, since it lacked a keeled breastbone for large flight muscles, and had a weak shoulder compared to modern birds. (Wellnhofer, 1993)   S. santensis from 138 Ma was a better flyer than Archaeopteryx. It had a short trunk, claws on the toes, flight-specialized shoulders, stronger flight- feather bones, tightly folding wrist and short hands.   A not yet named bird/dino from 131 Ma has a reptilian pelvis and legs, with bird-like shoulders. The tail is medium-length with a fused tip.   Then there's Hesperornis, Ichthyornis, and other Cretaceous diving birds. There are many fossils. Their skeleton is further modified for flight showing fusion of pelvis bones, fusion of hand bones and a short, fused tail). It also still had true socketed teeth, a reptilian trait.   There are others and this is by no mean exhaustive. This is just to show that there are very good transition lineages.   Although no modern birds have teeth, chicken bills can be induced to develop teeth, indicating that chickens still retain the genes for making teeth.   There is also an intriguing fossil Microraptor gui that has flight feathers on both the front and back legs.   http://eur.news1.yimg.com/eur.yimg.c...2567138235.jpg   I can provide more info on any of these if you wish.   References   Wellnhofer, P. 1993. Das siebte Exemplar von Archaeopteryx aus den Solnhofener Schichten. Archaeopteryx vol.11, pp. 1-47. [Description of the newest specimen of Archaeopteryx, with some more features that unite birds with dinosaurs."
+p9434
+aS'Obviously not about abortion.'
+p9435
+aS'You need to read what people say more thoroughly, and think about it before you respond. When he said "can" (and there are not many simpler words than that!) It didn\'t mean "will", "must", or "shall" be more aggressive. It has been shown that in some cases it "CAN" happen. It may not have happened with you. It still might, we don\'t know. We might even say that it is not likely to happen, but we can\'t say that it won\'t, because sometimes some people do behave more aggressively when they have a gun.'
+p9436
+aS'Prove it then. If this is a fact, there will be research on the subject on the net somewhere comparing the effects of the two.   In terms of addiction, alcohol is far worse than pot apparently.   http://www.tfy.drugsense.org/tfy/addictvn.htm'
+p9437
+aS'The Civil War was fought to establish the principle that each person owns his own body - a principle that the pro-life crowd is trying to destroy.   Each owns his own body? Are you talking about the woman or the child in the womb?'
+p9438
+aS'You consider the county to be like Rosa Parks???'
+p9439
+aS'And you believe that to be what? You really need to just say who/what you think the Creator is to save us from having to make all these clarification posts.'
+p9440
+aS"Is that all you've got?"
+p9441
+aS"It's your article, not mine"
+p9442
+aS"As the Christian Right's poster boy, this is hugely damaging, don't you think? Also makes him very hypocritical (or, dare I say, a FLIPFLOPPER?! ) since he is campaigning against open abortion now."
+p9443
+aS'Well he has further political aspirations..........The 9th circuit in Sodom (SF) is always making law instead of interpreting it........That is why they are over ruled so often.......'
+p9444
+aS'The curriculum is legal outside the public school system, and used in private schools. (I left a couple of sample links on the other board.) So do you see those private schools as engaged in child abuse?'
+p9445
+aS'No Steve, I realise that there are hetersexuals who practice that filthy pastime of anal sex and other sex acts that the human body is not designed to do. Heterosexuals have no more business doing these things then homosexuals.   Do you realise Steve that E Coli bacteria inhabit the rectum and are in feces? Do you know how sick and E Coli infection can make you? Sodomy is akin to having sex in raw sewage.'
+p9446
+aS'Yes Chrstians should be disarmed so the "moral" atheists, humanists, pagans who crucified people should rule over us . . . that would give everyone a warm fuzy feeling inside.   Matt 26: 1 And it happened, when Jesus finished all these sayings, He said to His disciples, 2 You know that the Passover is coming after two days, and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified.   Of course there are valid reasons why Christ armed His men.   Romans 13: 1 Let every soul be subject to higher authorities, for there is no authority except from God, but the existing authorities have been ordained by God. 2 So that the one resisting authority has opposed the ordinance of God, and the ones opposing will receive judgment to themselves. 3 For the rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the bad. And do you desire not to fear the authority? Do the good, and you will have praise from it; 4 for it is a servant of God to you for the good. But if you practice evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is a servant of God, an avenger for wrath to the one practicing evil. 5 Because of this, it is necessary to be subject, not only on account of wrath, but also on account of conscience. 6 For on this account you also pay taxes, for they are ministers of God, always giving attention to this very thing. 7 Then give to all their dues: to the one due tax, the tax; to the one due tribute, the tribute; to the one due fear, the fear; to the one due honor, the honor.   Luke 11: 21 When the strong one, having been armed, guards his dwelling, his goods are in peace. 22 But as soon as one stronger than he comes, he overcomes him; he takes away his armor on which he relied, and deals out his arms.   "a moments notice..." Well it appears the guaranteed scheduled time is on the day of judgment.   Luke 19: 27 But these enemies of mine, those not desiring me to reign over them, bring them here and execute them before me.'
+p9447
+aS"Because you've presented no credible evidence to support the claims that private transactions are an established and major source of firearms for criminals.   If you can't prove it's broken, you don't have grounds to call for fixing it."
+p9448
+aS"I've never been to Amsterdam.   A friend of mine went and he liked it.   I'd like to go someday.   Hell, I'd just like to get my XXX anywhere, really."
+p9449
+aS'What, specifically, are you witnessing? A baby being born? A prayer apparently being answered? A near miss? Mysterious coincidences that you interpret as being the work of God? Or do you see dead people rising up out of the grave? And people walking on water? And people turning water into wine and feeding a crowd with a small amount of food?   What kind of miracles are we talking about here?'
+p9450
+aS"This past Saturday, my partner and I had a commitment ceremony or wedding if you say care to say.....In my state it is not legally bindingm we did it anyway.....it was more about the emotional commitment two people make to each other in the presence of their friends and family. I tried so hard not to, but when the celebrant asked me to repeat after him, with the vows I wrote my self.....I tried and tried and tried, but couldn't speak. I was too moved by the moment and all I could do was cry....   I love my partner with all my heart....So I wanted to get through, I thought about our taxes (didn't work). So thought about everyone in their underware.....contrary to popular opinoin that doesn't work either.....   I managed to get the words out (don't know how) just did!   This marriage is just as perfect to us, and those that were our witnessess.....as any heterosexual wedding......   The rest of the night was blur, between 50 people wanting my attention and me being really buzzed on white wine.....oh my oh my.......I was pretty shocked!   Marrige is what you decide it is, regardles if the gov was to see it....I am now married.....like it or not."
+p9451
+aS"So? In your religion's view, everyone sins. Their sin is no greater or more unforgiveable than yours."
+p9452
+aS'Originally Posted by Symbiote   a) In medicine, the use of antibiotics, the understanding of what causes resistance, and what kind of treatments can be used to avoid resistance. The knowledge that virii (like the bird flu) can easily evolve over time to spread through different organisms, resulting in preventative measures to prevent deadly diseases effecting humans.   ender Krum:   This seems to be micro, not macro, evolution. I am still having trouble combining micro and macro evolution. Could someone address the following statement from wikipedia on micro-evolution?   "Typically, observable instances of evolution are examples of microevolution; for example, bacterial strains that have become resistant to antibiotics. Because microevolution can be observed directly, both pro-evolution and some anti-evolution groups agree that it is a fact of life."   Walking-fish:   The mechanisms of mutation, gene flow, genetic drift and natural selection that work for microevolution below the species level, also work at the macroevolutionary level (why wouldn\'t they?). However, some biologists put more emphasis on the role of mutations of developmental genes at the macro level to push the changes that lead to higher taxons. The most often quoted example here is that of Stephen J Gould, who proposed that the jaws evolved in fish as a result of such genes causing a shift in the position of the first 2 gill arches relative to the others so they could be free to evolve as jaws. I think that these drastic genetic changes would be the only discernable difference in the mechanisms between micro &amp; macroevolution.   As for the "typically observable" examples of evolution, I\'d like to add that observed speciation events cross the threshold between micro &amp; macro. Also, lineages in the fossil record are easily observable. Genetic markers are, likewise, observable evidence of macroevolution. So it is perfectly legit to say that we can indirectly observe macroevolution by way of this kind of evidence.'
+p9453
+aS'Well, if you breed them, you could get taller monkeys with less hair (and other humanlike characteristics). Even so, it would take a long time.'
+p9454
+aS'They are both written in the bible. Neither of them have any evidence (apart from the bible) to support their existence. One of them has been proven to be utterly false. This naturally discredits the other, as they appear in the same publication by the same author. Why decide one is true when the other is clearly not, and neither have any other supporting evidence?'
+p9455
+aS'Because? The conventional big bang is just as unlikely as God. Therefore your claim is wrong.   However the current believe mainly among physicists and astronomers is that there is no end and there is no beginning to the universe. Expansionary theories along with contractionary theories that are being observed have led many to believe that the current universe was born from the death of the last universe. There is no end and there is no beginning.   You are out of your league.'
+p9456
+aS'So we agree..... What I want to know is why the vocal homosexual \'lobby\' insists on the term "marriage?"   emclean, the sanctity of marriage would not be the only thing about marriage to be (harmed?) changed. The whole definition of marriage would change, too.'
+p9457
+aS'The article cautions on blithely using natural selection as an explanation for the features of the genetic code.   Article 9:   In this article, the functional integrity and how the architecture of the code relates to it is discussed.   From the article:'
+p9458
+aS'Done'
+p9459
+aS'Following the original purpose of this thread, I will summarize my own views on abortion. (Note, this is copied from an older survey on abortion beliefs - a thread in the abortion forum called "Survey of views on abortion"):   For me, the question of abortion rights comes down to a balance between the rights of the mother and the rights of the fetus. On the side of the rights of the mother, there is a very important right to the control over one\'s own body and to not be forced to carry something as important and taxing as a pregnancy against one\'s will. Some may say that, in agreeing to have sex, a woman is agreeing to a pregnancy, but I strongly disagree. A pregnancy is a possible outcome of sex but only has a very small percentage chance if birth control is used. It would be like saying that you agree to be mugged if you walk in a bad neighborhood. The great majority of sex acts - for both married and unmarried women, religious or non-religious, conservative or liberal - are not done for the purposes of having children but are done for emotional and/or purely physical reasons. Pregnancy is the goal for only a minority of sex acts. So, women are not agreeing to a pregnancy when they have sex. In the case of unwanted pregnancies, it is a significant burden that they never agreed to. If they are forced to carry such a pregnancy, it would be a strong imposition against the rights over their own bodies.   On the other hand, one has the rights of the fetus. What rights the fetus has depends on your belief system and priorities. For me, the most important thing when it comes to the rights of any human being is whether or not there is a mental existence - at least a rudimentary mind. I believe that I did not exist until I started to mentally exist and that applies to all others. My view is that, once a mental existence begins, the right to life of a fetus kicks in and takes priority over the mother\'s rights over her own body, under most circumstances. The neurological view is that a mind cannot exist before the third trimester. Therefore, I would allow abortion-on-demand for the first and second trimester and restrict it in the third trimester. For that third trimester, I would limit abortions to those that are done to mitigate a significant risk to the mother\'s life or physical or mental health (ex. leading to, say, paralysis or strong possibility of suicide, etc.) and, in case of severe incurable deformations of the fetus discovered late, to end the life of a fetus that would otherwise strongly suffer (i.e. mercy killing). Otherwise, I believe abortions should be restricted. If a woman has not decided on an abortion by the third trimester, she should have to carry the pregnancy to term (minus the perviously mentioned exceptions). She would have had ample time to decide.   Lastly, here are a couple of links which describe the neurological view of a mind not existing before the third trimester:   Part 4 of http://www.2think.org/abortion.shtml   http://7e.devbio.com/article.php?ch=21&amp;id=162'
+p9460
+aS"But you can't. You may imagine it but you can't present evidence that supports your position. You can only argue against what you don't understand in the first place. I generally make it a rule to keep my mouth shut unless I have actually had the integrity to educate myself about the basics of a topic. You don't seem to do the same."
+p9461
+aS'just how i said it...   opinion...   like, what you think   of it'
+p9462
+aS'Just on my way out, saw this, and YES! I have long believed that this is the heart of the matter, and have tried to make this point with little success from time to time.   I have never seen a direct response to this. Ever. Even in threads where the discussion has carried on in detail on both sides, this concept is totally ignored.   There was a similar, brief hiatus leaning towards this point in one of the threads over at IIDB where creationist spammer Afdave is rapidly losing his dignity and proving himself predictably ignorant in all fields of science including the philosophy of same.   It got really interesting for a bit and the guys over there looked to have actually got through to him for a bit, but then he predictably went into full Gish Gallop mode in order to bury his own cognitive dissonances underneath wave upon wave of standard AiG/EvoFairytale strawmen.   Just my two pence; this is a fascinating psychological point that should be discussed.'
+p9463
+aS'If same sex couples are offered equal rights under a PACS (or some other legally recognized union) as married couples, why does it matter which "door" they come in through? They get all the same benefits, including the benefits that come when one partner dies.   What\'s the beef...except that you can\'t say that you\'re "married"?'
+p9464
+aS'And for those who are not deadbeats? Would you grant them any "rights?"'
+p9465
+aS'Because quite simply, it is all what we observe. One has never observed a mutation that has been seen to increase the information in the genome. If there have been any mutations that have led to an increase in information, please state it.'
+p9466
+aS'Here\'s an interesting one:   Lipoprotein Lipase S447X: A Naturally Occurring Gain-of-Function Mutation.   Brief Reviews   Arteriosclerosis, Thrombosis &amp; Vascular Biology. 26(6):1236-1245, June 2006.   Rip, Jaap; Nierman, Melchior C.; Ross, Colin J.; Jukema, Jan Wouter; Hayden, Michael R.; Kastelein, John J.P.; Stroes, Erik S.G.; Kuivenhoven, Jan Albert   Abstract:   mdash;: Lipoprotein lipase (LPL) hydrolyzes triglycerides in the circulation and promotes the hepatic uptake of remnant lipoproteins. Since the gene was cloned in 1989, more than 100 LPL gene mutations have been identified, the majority of which cause loss of enzymatic function. In contrast to this, the naturally occurring LPLS447X variant is associated with increased lipolytic function and an anti-atherogenic lipid profile and can therefore be regarded as a gain-of-function mutation. This notion combined with the facts that 20% of the general population carries this prematurely truncated LPL and that it may protect against cardiovascular disease has led to extensive clinical and basic research into this frequent LPL mutant. It is only until recently that we begin to understand the molecular mechanisms that underlie the beneficial effects associated with LPLS447X. This review summarizes the current literature on this interesting LPL variant.   This one provides rather good protection from hardening of the arteries.   Or this one:   APPLIED AND ENVIRONMENTAL MICROBIOLOGY, May 1995, p. 2020&#8211;2022 Vol. 61, No. 5   0099-2240/95/$04.0010   Copyright q 1995, American Society for Microbiology   Emergence of Nylon Oligomer Degradation Enzymes in   Pseudomonas aeruginosa PAO through Experimental Evolution   IRFAN D. PRIJAMBADA, SEIJI NEGORO,* TETSUYA YOMO, AND ITARU URABE   Department of Biotechnology, Faculty of Engineering, Osaka University, 2-1 Yamada-oka, Suita, Osaka 565, Japan   Through selective cultivation with 6-aminohexanoate linear dimer, a by-product of nylon-6 manufacture, as the sole source of carbon and nitrogen, Pseudomonas aeruginosa PAO, which initially has no enzyme activity to degrade this xenobiotic compound, was successfully expanded in its metabolic ability. Two new enzyme activities, 6-aminohexanoate cyclic dimer hydrolase and 6-aminohexanoate dimer hydrolase, were detected in   the adapted strains.   http://aem.asm.org/cgi/reprint/61/5/2020.pdf   We thought it would take roughly a million years for bacteria to evolve enzymes capable of digesting nylon (because the compound is so different than any they were able to digest) but it took less than a century.   Barbarian observes:   It\'s all real DNA. Some of it just doesn\'t code for anything. But some parts of non-coding DNA (which you call "junk") has other functions besides coding for proteins. .'
+p9467
+aS'The anti-abortionists claim that would be killing a human life to save one.'
+p9468
+aS'But if the repeated tests just confirm the same errors or misinterpretations of the results, all of the independent reviews in the World wont make a difference.'
+p9469
+aS'you should be allowed to buy as many as you want to'
+p9470
+aS'But nonetheless fascinating!'
+p9471
+aS"Good shooting! Got two illegal alien perps that had been deported for previous felonies and just committed another after illegally entering the country again.   WE NEED MORE JOE HORNS and a heck of a lot less bradies!   Is this the only case you could find of a CCW exercising his rights (you know the law applies to any citizen of Texas don't you and they need not be licensed?) completely justified in the Penal Code of Texas. Self-defense and defense of a third person or property is justified and required by law...IT IS YOUR PUBLIC DUTY.   Job well done Mr. Horn!!   How come you don't post links (deleted by poster)? This is old news, almost 3 years ago to be exact. Did you think it was sensational? LOL"
+p9472
+aS'Hehe.   Putting political messages on such things seems retarded to me though.   -Wez'
+p9473
+aS"The biblical end has got to be near. This was a Doctor who spends all of his life saving people's lives."
+p9474
+aS'No, actually they used the Bible as a basis for their morality. They then applied that morality to the design of a system of government that they wanted to create.   Maybe the majority of Americans are comfortable with the status quo WRT their morals. Who are you to tell them that they have to change for you?'
+p9475
+aS'I hope I have already begun to change your mind.'
+p9476
+aS"To the extent that working toward social change on any moralistic issue is an 'imposition', sure. But I think one could say that about anything that has a social effect."
+p9477
+aS"If you feed me a lot of caffinated coffee i start to wiggle and squirm too. I'm not really in any pain."
+p9478
+aS'So a free society is one where the goverment does not have tabs on their citizens? How could then the goverment work when it does not know who they actually govern? The foundation of economics is that you have correct data, else it\xc2\xb4s the beginning of corruption not freedom.   And since when was there a dichotomy between freedom and socialism?   Further how does the usage of identification ease the rounding up of suspects? Wouldn\xc2\xb4t it be rather MORE risk to be rounded up if you couldn\xc2\xb4t identify yourself and thus automatically become suspect than be able to and take yourself out of the calculation?'
+p9479
+aS"So once again you're steering away from the debate? I don't understand why your ignoring the debate and going off in a whole new direction even after making this same mistake in your last post. You're still showing that the Bible has a flaw in it and therefore your making up your own story about what happened. You're also making predictions about the future based on your own interpretation. I'm sure you won't even considered that your wrong about either of these things though I doubt you have any reason to believe in either of them other than you have the idea stuck in your head now.   [quote]The above fully answers the apparent contradiction you and others find in these passages. The reason you may think I may be presenting information contrary to normative Christian teaching is that you have picked a peculiarly thorny passage - something that skeptics of the Bible and enemies of God will almost always do.[\\QUOTE]   It only answers the contradiction after you fill in the blanks with your own interpretation and of course your interpretation is based on your personal views and no facts. All the facts that you can work with are in the Bible and as of this moment the Bible seems to have a flaw in it. Your trying to cover this flaw with a story that you made up. I guess in your mind this makes sense but I don't think many Christians would even agree with you much less those of us who look for logic."
+p9480
+aS"sinjin - I didn't mean to imply any linkage between your opinions and those of another poster. Apologies."
+p9481
+aS"You haven't proven anything. All you have done is spew your same old drivel which ignores what I actually say and reinterprets it to mean what you want it to say. You must corrupt what I say since you can't accept the truth of my beliefs and win your fallacious argument."
+p9482
+aS'Yes. It describes an action without ascribing its form to its end result, outcome, whatever but strictly to a cause/s force/s in action. That is why \'selection\' is always teleological. In order to select or choose anything, an end must always be in view. There must always be a volitional discrimination of options based upon a criterion dictated by the desired end. The only time "channel" becomes teleological is when something live [a human or a beaver, let\'s say] intententionally does the channeling. But since it is understood that mechanical forces can also \'channel\', unintentional, out of simple mechanics, the word channel cannot be called teleological. In the same way, \'sorting\' can be considered non-teleological, hence mechanical, and thus suited to your glossary, because things can be sorted by mechanical forces alone. But \'selection\' always requires volition and awareness. So \'selection\' is always teleological.'
+p9483
+aS"I think you fail to take into account that for most opposers of abortion, they genuinely feel they are trying to save lives by their opposition. In many cases it's not a matter of trying control sexual prermissiveness in society but preventing lives from being killed. Disagree or not, you can't separate the anti-abortion message from the fact that it holds to the view that abortion is a form of murder."
+p9484
+aS"It's possible that Archaeopteryx is not a direct descendant of modern birds but it's certainly not far from the line and it shares both avian and therepodian characteristics."
+p9485
+aS'The average global temperature follows a sinusoidal pattern, the general consensus is we are supposed to be approaching a peak. Projections show that instead of peaking, there will be continue to be an increase in average global temperature which exceeds that of the peak 4000 years previous.'
+p9486
+aS'There is just one thing however. The coelacanths found are different from those in the fossil record. Further, ALL evidence pointed to them being extinct, until we found other evidence, and we changed it. And, to top it off, the article says NEARLY extinct, not COMPLETELY. Although, this article was of course written after the coelocanths were re-discovered. Of course, this has absolutely nothing to do with the theory of evolution, which explains the mechanisms responsible for the change of allele frequencies in populations over time.'
+p9487
+aS"No. I am a student and I personally don't have much money. So how could I help them? I have very limited money of my own. I help when I can, but sometimes with my present finances I can't do much. If I had enough money, as I assume you do, than yes I would help them as much as I could. This is just an example of where people feel compassion. And as I have said before, Dawkin's has trouble explaining how the universal feelings could come about through evolution. We would not expect mutated pondscum to produce feelings and morals, ethics, etc."
+p9488
+aS'No proof anyone ever went from gay orientation to straight orientation.'
+p9489
+aS'You are correct, but contingency must be in place to deal with it when it occurs.   Look at what happened in Eire with "Case X" in 1992- what happens when a country with the most restrictive abortion laws in Europe has to face up to the issue of pregnacy as a consequence of rape:   http://www.prochoiceforum.org.uk/ireland6.asp   Pages 12-13 of this EU report (Adobe Acrobat reader required):   http://www.newr.bham.ac.uk/pdfs/Repr...m%20Bremen.pdf'
+p9490
+aS"You are exactly correct in regard to my intent. IMHO, the allegories of the Bible are meant to teach the spirit of the stories, not actual facts...just as Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny are meant to represent the spirit of the seasons. When we are young children, we tend to believe in Santa and Thumper because our parents play the game so well, then as we learn the truth, we put away the belief that they are real but we pass the spirit on to our own children by playing the same game with them.   AIMHO, God teaches us the spirit of creation with the inspired allegories written in the Bible. God created it all, He just did it in a fashion we will likely never fully understand.   AIMHO, there were thousands of Adams and Eves, created after an evolutionary process that started when God created all matter and time.   I'm not trying to warp the Bible at all, just as I would not try to warp the meaning of Santa Claus, even though I know he's not a jolly fat man living at the North Pole surrounded by elves and flying reindeer."
+p9491
+aS"Because when something passes every experiment thrown at it and when something fits observation better than anything else, then it's as near as damnit fact. We can get pedantic over this if you want, but the conclusion that reaches is that there are no facts."
+p9492
+aS'Upon reviewing the golden rule "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" I see nothing of any other \'side.\' It\'s very clear--treat others the way you\'d want to be treated. No one wants to be treated badly, so if you follow the golden rule, you\'ll be benevolent.'
+p9493
+aS'He had ALREADY MADE the animals. "now the Lord God HAD FORMED..." not "now the Lord God formed..." See the difference? He already HAD FORMED the animals before he brought them to Adam. He made the animals before Adam.'
+p9494
+aS'Just another anti-gun Blogger.   I could go on, but doing so would boar the heck out of everyone, to include me!'
+p9495
+aS'Yes, I believe there will be a lot more to come (as you said, just look at the "hobbits" that were recently discovered). I love this sort of look into the migrations of everyone over the last 160,000 years or so.'
+p9496
+aS'Male'
+p9497
+aS'The simple fact is that people don\'t want the immense responsibility that logically pertains to their voluntary actions actions, so they fabricate denials of reality as a convenient escape, out of pure selfishness-- like every other atrocity in history.   The study of law includes an analysis of how people excuse their wrongdoings, fabricating pausible rationalizations for their acting to benefit at another\'s expense; denial is typically the first of these, claiming that the act "does not hurt anyone," however obvious the contrary. Other rationales follow, such as self-preservation, natural right to act, and eventually growing defensive by blaming the victim.   While the fabricator typically believes his story original, it is anything but-- it\'s simply the inevitable course of selfishness.'
+p9498
+aS"One shouldn't assume ignorance on the part of creationists. That is a mistake that too many evolutionists make.   In the real world, we have people willing to say things they already know isn't true. Why should creationists be any different? After all, they are people, too. But rather than accept that fact, evolutionists argue that creationists are ignorant of a subject when, in reality, they (creationists) were simply telling lies."
+p9499
+aS'And yet quantum physics tends to be very contradictory, at least to our perceptions. Acausal events happen. A particle can be in two places at the same time. A particle can disappear and reappear in a different location without traversing that distance. And et cetera.   Since the beginning of our local universe occurred at quantum levels, I would be cautious about drawing philosophical conclusions based on our macro-world experiences.'
+p9500
+aS"You know, your comparison of those that fought to end segregation, to those that fight to enact gun ban and gun control laws, is nothing more than a cheap and dirty tactic that does nothing to address the issue, and everything to suggest that breaking the law is alright if you're a politician or legislator.   There's a very large difference between people like Rosa Parks, and the mayor of Philadelphia; gun ownership is protected by the Constitution, segregation wasn't.   The fact that you're comparing those who instituted civil disobedience for good reasons, to those who want to violate state laws to pass their own laws because they think they know better and have a right to do so, just shows that you can't address the point at hand."
+p9501
+aS"Is that a trick question? No, the tabloid and other gutter press keep going on about how bad it is, because they sell papers by fanning fear and hatred, and fear of crime is one of their biggest markets. Yes there has been an increase in gun crime over the years, but that's largely attributable to increased attractiveness of crime in a society where social mobility has come to a standstill. In any case the number of incidents where firearms are used in crime is still very small, which is why every time someone gets shot it is headline news.   Guns are incredibly rare in this country, the only time I've seen guns in real life (other than air rifles) is on a military base."
+p9502
+aS"When will it stop? Never. They will take every gun, every toy gun, disarm the law enforcment community, give us Nerf batons so we don't actually hurt the criminals, and say that this kinder gentler way of doing things will help. In the meantime murders will go through the roof, like in Australia, rape will escalate, breaking and entering will become common place, and cops will die by the minute. They will not only confiscate the guns, but then charge the owners of those guns for being terrorists. It won't end. In order to establish true dependency upon a government you must force the populous to rely completely on the government for every aspect of life including safety."
+p9503
+aS'Fossils show inherited change. Adaptation does not.'
+p9504
+aS'********. Utter fraking ****. Scientists have already accumulated mounds of evidence which suggest the common ancestor. You choose to ignore it as do most scientifically ignorant christians.'
+p9505
+aS"Well, here is my take on it. I really believe that only the truly evil end up in Hell. Those like Hitler. I think that anyone else goes to heaven - Wiccans, Atheists, Buddhists, etc. - anyone who follows Christ's message of love, tolerance, and acceptance, whether knowingly or not.   Those who preach hate, and those who act on that hate, like Hitler, the KKK, and any other person/persons filled with hate (sad to say, this seems to apply to our own friend Archie here) are the ones who will end up in hell."
+p9506
+aS"Sorry, your going to have to explain to me how Swiss gun laws are in anyway relevant to a shooting in Missouri.   Missouri allows concealed carry, it's unfortunate for the victims that ABB does not."
+p9507
+aS'Tell this to those infants and adults in the netherlands who are being euthanized against their will. this is a logical conclusion of a quality of life ethic without a sanctity of life basis.'
+p9508
+aS"Sucide? Isn't that a mental health issue? If you take a gun from a sucidal and depressed person, does that cure depression?   If it does that you have addressed the root cause of sucide.   If it does not than you really have not done anything to cure the fundamental cause of sucide."
+p9509
+aS"But when some are ignorant enough to believe in a false science like evolution, which is based on lies and deceptions, they prove right there that they haven't enough knowledge of the truth, nor a sense of discernment that is capable of even determining what is true or a lie. So who are you people to even judge the intelligence of those who will ultimately be proven to have known the truth regarding our origins, to the lies that you so proudly defend?   I say this only so you pseudo intellectuals will have some personal introspection to consider rather than just assuming that you'll get the correct answers by leaning on human understanding. It is incredible that you can't even see that you are bankrupt when you rely on unprovable assumptions that are based on preconceived notions, that have been both failing and conflicting with all of the new discoveries made in each generation to follow, thereby forcing the need to redefine the parameters by which evolution works every 10 years or so.   So evolution isn't a science, it's a working piece of fiction in progress that is constantly being tweaked and shaped to fit the preconceptions no matter what new evidence is discovered that contradicts it."
+p9510
+aS"But...but...   I just swallowed 56 zygotes so that they could vote by proxy through me for the Ripofflican(tm) party this upcoming election so they can win. Now I'm going to have all that indigestion for nothin'.   As to driving...don't care.   What I'll miss most is all of those credit card offers that come in their names. There's just so much that they, living though me want to 'buy now and pay later' on. You saying they can't do that?"
+p9511
+aS"Nobody should be forced to even have a sonagram. I think that you'll find reasonable pro-life and pro-abortion people believe that much."
+p9512
+aS'This question is premised on an untenable assumption: that people should not be allowed to vote on particular issues. This premise is clearly not true in any democratic society, and is especially not true in the United States. In the United States, it is a contradiction in terms to say someone is not allowed to vote on X. I have demonstrated this before, and yet the same silly question keeps coming up.'
+p9513
+aS"It was in the news for a while and I'm pretty sure the inquiry found that it was a terrible misfortune based on miscommunication between the hospital and the parents. There was no selling of stolen dead babies for profit type of business going on with is what Fishx implies with the first post.   Sorry, didn't mean to offend there but I still think its better than another baby has a chance to live than pretty much anything with respect to the desceased. If it happened to me I would have no problem at all about any of my organs being used to save lives, either directly or indirectly through training of more doctors or research. Yet, I still respect your wishes and said before that if this is going to happen it should certainly be cleared with the parents first. You're just going to have to accept my appologies and realise that I have no idea what you went through, having not been there myself.   Being in an abortion forum, and the nature of the first post it seemed very quite possible that Fishx had had an abortion, though regretted it and wanted the remains to bury - this is a very different case than the one you have unfortunately experienced, hence the question."
+p9514
+aS"So my question is this: Why doesn't a chihuahua birthe a Siberian husky in the Antarctic, or even in Siberia?   Oh, my other question is this: Why do animals die young instead of adapt?"
+p9515
+aS'Just to point out, the class that ID is being taught in is a comparative religion class.'
+p9516
+aS'First, are you not forcing your beliefs on me when you lobby for, enact, and support a law that legalizes an act that I see as murder?   Second, forcing someone to believe as I do is in no way the essence of Christianity. God gives choices (which is another debate) to man. We must simply choose right or wrong. Jesus wants us to influence, not force. Jesus said to His followers in Matthew 5:14-16, "You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven." If I truly believe in Jesus as my Lord and Saviour (and I do), then I must follow His command to influence (not force) the whole world. It doesn\'t do any good to only preach to the preached.'
+p9517
+aS"Nice try. If America was an Ally to Germany during WWII, to this day you wouldn't forgive US Citizens no matter what excuse they have."
+p9518
+aS'Then a man who needs an artificial heart to survive is a new species of man. That is the analogy I gave, and you ignored.   In both cases; human and bacteria, before the advent of a human product, a particular group of individuals from each larger group would die off.   BUT along come a man-made invention that allows those certain portions to live on which otherwise would have died. In once case - nylon, the other, the artificial heart. You call this evolution.   Nor is it \'natural selection\' at work either, as in both cases the thing that enabled them to survive was not natural. What you have advanced as a proof of evolution actually proves what? Natural what? I suppose people with cochlear implants are new species too because they\'ve learnt to hear.   Another view of this nylon-eating-bug is given...   "Finally, Mr Cerutti is out of date about this new nylon digesting ability allegedly from a frame shift. New evidence shows that the ability was due to plasmids [e.g. K. Kato, et al., ?A plasmid encoding enzymes for nylon oligomer degradation: Nucleotide sequence analysis of pOAD2?, Microbiology (Reading) 141(10):2585?2590, 1995.] In fact, more than one species of bacteria have the ability, residing on plasmids. This suggests that the information probably already existed, and was just passed between different types of bacteria."   "All that would be needed to enable an enzyme to digest nylon is a mutation causing loss of specificity in a proteolytic (protein-degrading) enzyme. This may seem surprising? How would a loss of information create a new ability? Answer: enzymes are usually tuned very precisely to only one type of molecule (the substrate). Loss of information would reduce the effectiveness of its primary function, but would enable it to degrade other substrates, too. Since both nylon and proteins are broken down by breaking amide linkages, a change in a proteolytic enzyme could also allow it to work on nylon. If this process were continued, the result would be a general enzyme with a weakly catalytic effect on the hydrolysis of too many chemicals to be useful where much selectivity is required. To put it into perspective, acids and alkalis also catalyze many hydrolysis reactions, but they also lack specificity. Indeed, an inhibitor of a protein degrading enzyme also inhibits the action of the nylon degrading enzyme"   http://www.answersingenesis.org/home...e7-24-2000.asp   Talkorigins gave their usual doubletalk   "Whilst this particular case does not "prove" evolution, it is consistent with, and supportive of, the theory of biological evolution."   Why do they say this? Because it\'s still a bacteria. It\'s not like it suddenly became a large multi-cellular organism. But it might just prove that this bug was so well designed that it can cope with newer situations. One site does say that it, the bacteria, had the capability already within it of change ? not resultant in ?mutations?, but more like switching on previously dormant apparatus. http://members.tripod.com/aslodge/id89.htm   One poster on another forum summed the problem up like this...   " In order for species to advance there would have to be a net information gain, which isn\'t the case with nylon eating bacteria.   The bacteria gained the ability to digest nylon, therefore was able to survive in a new environment. Two distinct advantages   But, the bacteria lost its ability to survive in its old environment, eat its former diet and suffered a 98% loss in efficiency. Three disadvantages.   So by taking two steps forward and three steps backward, where is the net gain?   If nylon eating bacteria was "proof" of evolution, we would still be pond scum, but with the ability to digest whatever happened to become the primary food source."   http://www.christianforums.com/t52336'
+p9519
+aS'Like most things theists that statement is based on ignorance.'
+p9520
+aS"And that didn't have a thing to do with my point."
+p9521
+aS"Well, kind of a boring thread, since everyone agrees, but since I'm new here, I may as well weigh in. Hubby and I have three grown kids and one teen. The grown ones all got the same going-to-college gifts. They got a safe car, a laptop, an emergency credit card, and a personal firearm. I felt this especially important for our daughters."
+p9522
+aS"But I think that is the point. What if you didn't agree with the germ theory of disease? Does that mean that it shouldn't be taught in health classes in our schools? Should it be replaced by the bad humors of night air theory? But not everyone agrees with that theory either."
+p9523
+aS"We don't live on carbon dioxide. We live from the energy stored in carbon compounds when we break them down."
+p9524
+aS'And religious folk in the south used the Bible to justify enslavement of thousands or millions of blacks, and also to justify their treating blacks as mere property. I suppose (but am not familiar enough with all of the details to know for sure) that some even used the Bible to justify linching blacks.'
+p9525
+aS"If I am to believe in something even if it's scientific, I should be able to challenge the belief's of the person who's pushing it. If they don't believe in what they're selling, why should I."
+p9526
+aS'Actually just as many atheist help the needy.   Of course a person would need to be open-minded to realize it. Here is one such atheist charity. If you were open-minded about such things then you would have learned that both Bill Gates and Warren Buffett, who have each individually made the two largest charitable donations in American history, are both atheist (Oops, bet that\'s gotta kill your argument, huh?) and they can rightly claim credit for spurring many other ultra-rich to also be charitable.   Ted Turner, the multi-billionaire, has also donated millions to others, and guess what grizzly6626, he\'s an atheist too!   George Soros, also a multi-billionaire, financier and philanthropist, has also donated millions and is also an atheist. The list goes on and on. You just don\'t hear about these people donating because they tend to do these things quietly, and not with a lot of *cough* religious *cough* fanfare.   Didn\'t mean to wake you up grizzly6626   BTW - many catholic charities are known to turn the needy away. I\'ve heard many accounts about how when some people first got married back in the 1970s, that catholic charities wouldn\'t help them out because they were not "good, church-going catholics." Basically because they didn\'t go to church every week (and put in their money filled envelope) the Church didn\'t consider them worthy of help.   You see, it isn\'t because religion makes people morally better than atheism. Rather, it would be because churches often organize charitable activities and encourage their members to participate, while atheists, simply have no comparable social structure. It\'s not that churchgoers have a superior moral sentiment, just that because of their increased social structure they naturally have increased opportunity.   There are countless amounts of people who are atheist that donate from the heart. They do not \'band together\' into groups like religions do, and they do not advertise their charitable works like religions do, but they donate from the heart just the same. Here is a partial list of many such individuals who just happen to also be atheist. But it goes MUCH further than that though. There are a few organizations formed by atheists for the sole purpose of donating to those in need. One such organization is called S.H.A.R.E. - Secular Humanist Aid and Relief Effort. Here is a recent story about them helping those in need. So, when someone ignorant and closed-minded like grizzly6626 tries to convince you that \'only religions\' donate or help those in need, you will now know that it\'s simply not true, and that people from all beliefs, even those that don\'t believe in God, help others in need and donate from their hearts, because they know it\'s the right thing to do for their fellow man in need'
+p9527
+aS"Yeah, back in the Late 60, because The Black Panther Party was publicly armed, and had publicly advocated Offing the Pigs, our law makers granted the police the law that said it was illegal for anyone to transport any firearm within Ohio. They did it with the understanding that they would not abuse the privilege that was granted for their protection. Well, 40 years went by, and new officers seeing this law on the books started enforcing it. After all, why not, It is the law, and their is no excuse for the law! Period!   Well, Ohioans for Concealed Carry and a bunch of others, decided enough was enough, and contacted Ohio law makers who took it off the books because it wasn't being used, as agreed upon!"
+p9528
+aS'http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/4487756.stm'
+p9529
+aS"First of all rape is one of the most under-reported crimes so it makes sense that abortion due to rape/incest is also under-reported so that makes your assumptions and numbers off.But of course you are missing the whole point.You are not the one being raped so it isn't YOUR choice.I don't need you making choices for me or telling me what is and isn't good for my emotional health.If one gets raped and DOES NOT want to be pregnant who are you tell them they have to be? Abortion should be legal for everybody who wants one not just rape/incest victims,for the simple reason that no human being has the right to substain life by using the body of another why should a fetus have more rights than actual persons?"
+p9530
+aS'Yes, but we had no way to tell until we found them again, now had we?'
+p9531
+aS"What's your point? Of course they will be bound by Heller just as the courts are bound by Roe v. Wade. That point wasn't in dispute. As long as you're talking about 19th Century Second Amendment case law, I like The State v. Buzzard (1842)."
+p9532
+aS'my my you are up on the current events. Thanks for shedding light on this for everyone here.'
+p9533
+aS"If guns laws don't affect criminals then how do you explain the low rates of criminal gun use in nations like the UK?"
+p9534
+aS"This why we think you're a liar.   http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/dino...teocalcin.html"
+p9535
+aS'Nobody I know sanctions adultery. There are already serious consequences built in against it. As far a same sex marriage, I know of nobody that is suggesting legal penalties for it unless one considers the refusal to legally recognize it a legal penalty. Certainly nobody has been jailed or fined for attempting such marriages. Privately performed ceremonies as such are not punished.'
+p9536
+aS"Largely, out of date. To paraphrase myself from earlier, the differences between 'then' and 'now' are as follows:   Increased availability and proficiency of viable alternatives for self-defence.   Increased availability and improved variety/design of handguns.   Different type of 'gun crime' - it is now largely opportunistic.   Today's government need not fear almost any citizens militia, unless absolutely overwhelming.   Today's government is less in need of a (potential) extra army to defend against foreign assault.   I may have missed some..."
+p9537
+aS'To each his own...if you got it - flaunt it. Think of all the pretty, fashionable gun rigs that would spawn. Darn sinjin, you might have to get an outfit to get a date Course if you carried concealed like say, Mike Hammer, you might have to get a bowler or little CS hat?   Think of all the jobs it would create. Leather workers. Engravers. Gun finishes. More stylish guns. Corner gun stores and ammo at the local grocery, mail order business and on and on and on.   "Posers"? That is about all there is in kalifornia now isn\'t it? It doesn\'t bother you to watch scantily clad women...or men, whatever your preference is; why would full free exercise of a right freely stated in the Constitution be any different?   Oh, and on topic, end the pathetic pleas of the brady cowards and howls from VPC calling for discrimination and getting sued for demanding a Starbucks or any other emporium banish a citizen exercising a right.'
+p9538
+aS'And you\'ve been failing miserably, partly because your definition of "atheism" is asinine. Even most Christians would disagree with you.'
+p9539
+aS"Catholics have a different belief. The goal is to always save both mother and child. If the fetus dies during the attempt to save both, then that's what happens. For instance, with an ectopic pregnancy, the goal isn't to kill he fetus, the goal is to save both mother and fetus."
+p9540
+aS'I think a more telling question would be, why the hell would you rather feel constantly threatened than feel safe? It seems completely idiotic to me.   Smiley'
+p9541
+aS"Wouldn't it be wonderful if every woman in the world had access to decent prenatal care, if every woman in the world could be guanateed safe childbirth, wouldn't it be wonderful?   The entire series is at:   http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/10/opinion/10gift.html   And, if men had to suffer the torture of being in labor for a week and having their insides torn out, don't you think the male-centered world would truly care more about the welfare of women and children?"
+p9542
+aS'I think such a move would qualify as a recognized declaration of war.'
+p9543
+aS"Be wary of names. 'junk' DNA is not rubbish ... it's called 'junk' because we don't know entirely what it is used for... But just look at all the blank spaces on this post. They are nothing, but they are keeping the words in order.   Evolutionaries are putting too much faith in names of words - such as human embryonic 'gill slits'   or   'transitional' fossil"
+p9544
+aS'Or helpful.'
+p9545
+aS'maybe, but see, that does not match the materialist universe?'
+p9546
+aS'And certain versions of Mark:   15He said to them, \xe2\x80\x9cGo into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.\xe2\x80\x9d   Are they mistakenly reading this?'
+p9547
+aS"Well since posting on this thread has died and this seems to me to be the most interesting atheistic theory, I want to get a bit of clarification.   First, what do you mean by being allowed to cease providing for it at any age, but never allowed to kill it? By this do you mean that to cease providing for during the first trimester is not killing it? Is that because it is not alive at that time?   If I follow you (and I'm not sure I do) should the mother be allowed to have the baby removed at some point during the third trimester, after which it must be kept alive (and perhaps put up for adoption)?"
+p9548
+aS'Do you think this resistance got their most useful weapons out of a normal store? Please don\xc2\xb4t try such arguments without knowing about European history.'
+p9549
+aS'Actually the Apocrypha is made up of pre-Christian texts, and late 4th century is a bit of a stretch for the new testament, certainly all its component texts were widely accepted by the 2nd century. I don\'t whether it is "generally accepted" that the text was altered, it seems to me that you are projecting your own views based on the hypotheses of some scholars on to Biblical scholarship in general.'
+p9550
+aS"I'm not.   ---"
+p9551
+aS'Banning abortion is a tool with which to punish women you deem promiscuous or immoral and recreate through a police state a mythical golden age of christian virtue, got you.   The rest is just a cover story in the same way biblical creationists who want their religion brought into the school system advocate "intelligent design".   They call it "lying for baby Jesus".'
+p9552
+aS'Well said.   With this religion, the gap is very wide between the "average guy" and "authority", because their clergy is more involved in politics than the clergy of Christianity, or the Creator himself. It fits with more Democrats being evolutionists, and more Democrats favoring bigger domestic government.'
+p9553
+aS'would that be legaly owned guns, or criminals who have guns (and also ues guns) for there crimes? most Gang members have guns, if they are killed in a drive by shooting, is the gun responsable, or would it be the illegal activitys?'
+p9554
+aS'Since I was there, I\'ll give you an objective rundown:   1.) Dawkins didn\'t "crash" anything. He watched the movie without saying a word and participated in a Q&amp;A session with the producer at the end --a session that the producer deliberately started.   2.) There was no "sneaking" on any level. PZ, his daughter, and I all registered our names over the internet for the event and selected the option to have up to three guests come with us. We registered our real names, our real addresses, our real telephone numbers, and our real emails, and we all received confirmation emails approving our registration.   3.) What possible reason did they have to deny PZ a viewing of the film? Dawkins and I pressed the producer Mathis on this issue, and he said it was about money -- he wanted PZ to come back in a month and pay his $10. But this makes no sense. PZ was paid $1,200 for his interview. They thanked him for the interview in the credits. If money was a concern, they could have paid him $1,190 and given him a free reservation. Just the fact that he was in the film should have been enough to warrant a seat at a pre-screening event.   This all begs the question: What in God\'s name are they so bloody afraid of?'
+p9555
+aS"Stop trying to muddy the waters. I was talking about developed nations with lower murder rates. You suddenly bring Chicago into the debate- a city with open borders in a nation where guns are freely available. Even if gun control hasn't worked there it doesn't follow that gun laws can't work on a national level."
+p9556
+aS'Genes transfered horizontally are as subject to selection as anyother form of gene. Once intergrated into the recieving genome they are simply one more heritable element and if they alter the phenotypes (many are either neutral or even inactivatee) then of course they are subject to selection. Why do you think otherwise? Remember that horizontal transfer is a rare event roughly on a par with ordinary mutations.'
+p9557
+aS'The tactics pro-lifers use make the Nazis look like the little league. I mean, seriously. The reason we are dealing with terrorism is because women have the right to the abortion procedure. Wow. Please give me one way those two things relate to each other.'
+p9558
+aS'Just like no one is really "for" abortions, but they think that it\'s the woman\'s right to decide. Maybe that\'s like when congress gave the President the right to decide to go to war, even when they were supposed to declare war.'
+p9559
+aS'You then cite the Wikipedia entry on Spencer:'
+p9560
+aS'Then you are just throwing around words without knowing what they mean. Instead you give me a link to a page of pseudoscience. Are those the ones who lied to you?'
+p9561
+aS'I do not argue so much the quality of llife of an individual woman but more for the quality of life, indeed of having access to life itself, of the children of the woman involved, because in many situations the concern and nurturance of a mother may be the only thing keeping children alive, especially in poor, war-torn nations that do not enjoy the relative wealth of the United States.'
+p9562
+aS"I don't understand your question. If law-abiding gun owners were overwhelming those who should not have access to guns, those who use guns unlawfully, I would be very pleased.   But, as far as I can see, the only goal of the gunners is to make sure that everyone has a gun, no matter how insane, no matter how stupid, no matter how incapable they may be to own such easy-to-use instruments of death."
+p9563
+aS'The idea here is to demonstrate that the odds of them realizing the same Genesis is impossible. That is unless God came back again, spoke his word into a book through the scribblings of random religious scholars. If you accept that this is inevitable, you are delusional.   The most likely thing would be for humans to come up with an entirely different religious doctrine. I would be willing to bet that it would pass through polytheism into monotheism as more information became available and eventually we would end up right where we are now. The problem with this scenario is that evolution would probably never be confirmed since our biological history would not be apparent. We would come up with theories that God made us and perhaps even some screwballs would say we were all part of an experiment and were placed on the planet by our ancestors a couple hundred thousand years prior.'
+p9564
+aS"Just so you know Peach, the 167 death row inmates are now serving life in prison. At least that one who's not guilty might now have a chance to be free."
+p9565
+aS"Can't say."
+p9566
+aS'So indignities offered our citizens will be tolerated if dispensed in small doses?   Maybe we might educate the pirates what they should "know better" than to try.   My taxes pay to have a Navy presence around the world. Americans are American interests.'
+p9567
+aS"What's your claim? That the seasonal molt of arctic foxes is evolution or that it is not? As usual, your responses show muddled thinking."
+p9568
+aS"NOt true,   California's ammendments are not doing as well as other states did. You are talking about a very liberal state. If it is decided that marriage is allowed by the courts, then you are talking about taking away rights people have been granted by the courts. I just don't think that will happen in Calf. much too liberal."
+p9569
+aS'Either a gross misunderstanding or a gross misrepresentation of evolutionary theory.'
+p9570
+aS"I'm not aware that the police used violence in arresting any of the people discussed in this case. Besides, I'm not discussing personal morality here, I'm discussing what should be legal, and what is practical in a society where not everyone shares the same moral views. Government is there to apply limits to what is permitted, based on the will of the people."
+p9571
+aS'So individual cells contract to move cytoplasm around and to transport oxygen within itself?'
+p9572
+aS'And SS is once again wrong. If you really believe that then try to tell your genes to give you tiger stripes which will be inherited by your children. Good luck.'
+p9573
+aS'And it\'s only wishful thinking that they haven\'t. You are in no better position than I am. You don\'t know anymore than I do. Science has admitted that antarctica was much warmer several thousand years ago...not only that but the following map shows that the continent was not frozen. And if it was not frozen several hundreds years ago....and it was not frozen 4-5,000 years ago, as it was stated on this next seal link, then it\'s pretty safe to say that animals and humans could have both been there in recent history (within a few thousand years.) I agree this is no proof that it was attached, however, it is proof that the weather/temperature was DRASTICALLY different on antarctica than science has admitted.....and there\'s got to be a reason for this drastic change in temperatures.   http://www.world-mysteries.com/sar_1.htm   http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...ent-seals.html   In an Antarctic "ghost town," freeze-dried whiskers, skin, and bones provide evidence that the South Pole was a much warmer place not too long ago, a new study reveals.   "We thought, This is really strange. If they are elephant seals, what are they doing here?" Hall said.   The discovery, scientists say, is the first hard evidence for a warming period in the region between 2,300 and 1,100 years ago.   An earlier warming period, between 6,000 and 4,000 years ago, has been recognized by other researchers and is believed to have been widespread, at least throughout the Southern Hemisphere. (so widespread that there wasn\'t snow on the ground and it wasn\'t frozen over!)'
+p9574
+aS"That isn't my logic. My logic states that banning doctors would cause more deaths and our current system does. You are trying to debate that doctors are threatening withour realizing that they have great rewards as well. My logic is to look for the risk and reward and not just focus on one side of the debate.   Your logic was that since doctors cause deaths then they should be banned if guns are, correct? Then why isn't it also consistant with your logic to believe that we should ban food since food causes deaths?   So lets clairfy here, do you believe that guns have a better risk/reward than doctors? If you HAD to ban one which would it be? I await your sidestep of the question.   lol, now your comparing the Jews to current US gun issues? Why did you choose to do this? The risk-reward for Jews is different than the risk-reward for the US. Jews probably would have faired better if the Germans used Japanise gun control laws."
+p9575
+aS"No. I never mentioned grades. You brought that one up. I'm saying that having guns on school campus isn't a good plan due to the high level of emotions in the area."
+p9576
+aS'No, it\'s not an "inability" at all. It\'s a simple matter of you trying to take what IS a religious issue for many people and divorce it from religion altogether. That\'s not going to happen for many people.   And BTW, if you are going to refer to people as "Antis", at least be upfront about what you feel they are "anti-" toward. "Anti-gay?" "Anti-gay marriage?" What?   But behind that are deeper, more fundamental issues about what homosexuality IS and the morality of it. To many people who view homoseuxality as immoral, your movement seems to be trying to write immorality into law.'
+p9577
+aS"Sorry, but that's not in the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. Try again."
+p9578
+aS'Well it could mean simple instinct, and I think you will find it was only applied to animals with brains. EAM attributes "intelligence" even to bacteria and to corn plants, trees, jellyfish, single celled eukaryotes etc. If one is to consider intelligence the main driver of adaptation it must be omnipresent in living organisms - there is zero support for this concept.'
+p9579
+aS'But then, there also is absolutely no evidence for such an intelligence.'
+p9580
+aS'Do the words "govt. by the people and for the people" not matter to you at all? Furthermore, to say that the constitution shouldn\'t be allowed under the vote of the people itself in unconstitutional, since that\'s the only way the Constitution CAN be amended. (2/3 of states)   A country that uses judges to determine such sweeping things as redefining marriage is a "legistocracy", which we are quickly turning into as a nation. Even though judges are supposed to interpret the constitution, it\'s still putting the fate of the people in the hands of individuals regarding their laws. This is not very far removed from monarchy. Personally, I think our founding fathers and the Constitutional framers are rolling over in their graves right now.'
+p9581
+aS"Congratulations. You are now part of a minority group. Marriage tends to either work or it doesn't. I know, brilliant observation. What I mean is either the couple is together for decades or spend x amount of years being unhappy until the unhappy is more than the baggage of divorce."
+p9582
+aS"Just to contribute, I'm pro-gun, have had training in the proper use and laws in my area, and have owned weapons for more than 30 years."
+p9583
+aS'Who swings from Christmas cake to chrismas cake?   Tarzipan!'
+p9584
+aS'Ditto squared. If they support killing a perfectly healthy unborn child, they will argue that the reason stated in the Op is the main reason Abortion is needed and justified. And I must say that if 98% of all abortions were performed for that reason, the public stance against them might not be so strong.'
+p9585
+aS'yes and my post was proving that'
+p9586
+aS'Wow. A very unusual and distressing story, and probably why saline abortions are no longer used.   It is very unfortunate for her to have to live with that disability.'
+p9587
+aS'Notice that even in this version there are elipses just before the quote in question. My bet is if we were to actually refer to this 44 years old book, Simpson would not be saying what Toxey wants him to say.'
+p9588
+aS"Actually, qualified biologists know no such thing. In fact, I've never known one who would agree with that assertion. Can you give us some peer reviewed references to support your assertion?"
+p9589
+aS'refuted?   O\'rly?   First they start off defining evolution as "moleclues to man" despite what evolution actually states. That further proves my point about strawman. They don\'t discuss what evolution actually is. Furthermore, the whole notion that increasing capacity and adaption is not increasing complexity is insane. If I take a simple structure, modify it to form something more complex, is that not a change in complexity? The whole idea that modifying DNA, changing it, removing and adding isn\'t actually changing anything is retarded.   And they are separating macro from micro. That\'s an invalid argument given that macro is nothing more then the aggregate of micro. A billion tiny changes makes a few large ones.   The second idiotic article cites Natural genetic engineering. Despite there being absolutely no evidence of this occuring anywhere.'
+p9590
+aS'The other forest does not photosynthesize all year round, the other forest is also in just as much danger as the rainforest. For some reason, radical environmentalists choose to place undue emphasis on the de-forestation of rainforest rather than global forest as a whole.'
+p9591
+aS"Well, that just struck a chord with me. People of both sides say, \xe2\x80\x9cWe got the facts! The facts support our side!\xe2\x80\x9d but it isn't about the facts but how we react to them."
+p9592
+aS'Well, I don\'t believe in evolution. I believe in things for which I have no evidence. And while it is true that everyone has bias, using correct science and the process of peer review works to eliminate. Not all is perfect, and people are people, but overall the system works. Not a lot of bad science gets through. In the case of "creation science" we know that there is no science involved. Only talk that sounds scientific. There is no hypothesis, prediction or testing. Only ad hoc stories constructed of selected bits of evidence to support the foregone conclusion.'
+p9593
+aS"Where were the French on D-Day and the Normandy Invasion when Hitler was burglering their Nation? I don't recall history mentioning a Frenchman around but the Americans were saving their rears once again..."
+p9594
+aS'Some references please? In general, it seems that most climatologists agree that severe weather systems will occur more frequently with an increase in average global temperature. (ref:http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc_tar/wg2/061.htm#1434)'
+p9595
+aS"Because guns are the best method available on the market. Settling for second best when you could have the best is just stupid.   Better locks? The best they'll do is slow down the person seeking to harm you, their effectiveness is contingent on the strength of the door they're on.   Alarms? So somebody will know that you're in danger, what then? That won't get the police there any faster than dialing 911.   Non-lethal weapons? Somethings non-lethal is a non-option. Brandishing a can of pepper spray won't cause an attacker to flee for their life, it won't hold them at bay until the police arrive to arrest them, it won't stop a violent individual from across the room, and it sure as hell won't affect somebody that's doped up on narcotics.   And stun guns are more useless than knives, because as I've said before, you need to get right up against your attacker to use them. You have to get within stabbing distance to shock them, do you really want that to be your best option for protecting yourself? The idea is to keep the bad guy away from you, not let them get right next to you.   All of these non-lethal devices, they set up the false notion that the life of a criminal intent on hurting or possibly killing you, is worth more than your own life. That belief is stupid and should be done away with. Ask any woman that's ever been raped if they feel that their attacker deserves to live more than they do."
+p9596
+aS'Not true Our laws were originally founded on the precepts of the 10 commandments........'
+p9597
+aS"I wish you could put your hands on that poll as well. Until then I'll remain skeptical. Let's remember that Democrats and liberals hunt. Remove that group and what's left? Something less than 20% of Americans that own only handguns."
+p9598
+aS"Basic law 101: You can drive by 15 1/2 with A LICENSED ADULT OVER 25 IN THE CAR. Not 18 or 21, but 25 so it isn't a matter of potential peers watching each other. And your opening post referred to 14 year olds or above, as it shows below."
+p9599
+aS"Well, all I can say then is that no action is just about as bad as failed action, and IS as bad in terms of anything current. Either way you don't have gay marriage. You have a majority in Congress right now, and you're not demanding much change just because of fear of backlash? Yeah, there would be backlash. Heck, the Civil War was the ultimate backlash, but that didn't stop abolitionists from demanding more than TOKEN change, and it's a good thing they did. It's your gig, though, so do what you want. I don't see much point in laboring this discussion any more; I'm just pointing out my observations."
+p9600
+aS"Since you bring it up, I do think that you are a nut. But your site is even nuttier. Not one shred of evidence that I found - just assertion. Moreover, the author doesn't seem to know the difference between an hypothesis and a theory."
+p9601
+aS'We Americans do not care the government of the UK now under the control of sharia law hates freedom.   America is a Constitutional Republic where the Bill of rights secure our freedom.   I seem to recall you brits coming over here and demanding we lay down our guns and it did not go so well. And neither will it go well for any us politician\'s that try it as well. America has no reason to listen to people in the uk about gun control and now Knife control when its shockingly clear that criminals can still get any gun they want. Not to mention the fact that history has shown that time and time again what happens when the government wants its citizens to turn in the tools of freedom what happens.   "God grants liberty only to those who love it, and are always ready to guard and defend it." - Daniel Webster   "Government is not reason. It is not eloquence. It is a force, like fire: a dangerous servant and a terrible master." - George Washington   "With reasonable men I will reason; with humane men I will plead; but with tyrants, I will give no quarter, nor waste arguments where they will certainly be lost." - William Lloyd Garrison   # "If gun laws in fact worked, the sponsors of this type of legislation should have no difficulty drawing upon long lists of examples of crime rates reduced by such legislation. That they cannot do so after a century and a half of trying that they must sweep under the rug the southern attempts at gun control in the 1870-1910 period, the northeastern attempts in the 1920-1939 period, and the attempts at both Federal and State levels in 1965-1976 - establishes the repeated, complete, and inevitable failure of gun laws to control crime." -- Senator Orrin G. Hatch (R-Utah) quoted from "The Right to Keep and Bear Arms, Report of the Senate Subcommittee on the Constitution, Washington: U.S. Government Printing Office, February 1982, p. vii."   # "Congress has no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birth-right of an American ...the unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people." - Tench Coxe, 20 Feb 1788;'
+p9602
+aS"The Skeptic has requested no judges.   This actually suits me as there are too many of you that I'd have to pick from and I therefore avoid slighting anyone by not picking them"
+p9603
+aS'Interesting, but it appears to ignore the fact that there is pre-existing variation (just look at the pictures). Emphasizing mutations is ok, but relying solely on them will probably skew results.'
+p9604
+aS'True.'
+p9605
+aS"So, you don't see how stating that in a functioning democratic society guns belong only in the hands of the state is not anti gun?? Maybe you could give us an example of a statement that is more anti gun that that because I am having trouble imagining one."
+p9606
+aS'And you still have provided no evidence.'
+p9607
+aS'Actually, natural selection tends to preserve a species with only minor changes in a stable environment. But environments tend to change. I don\'t know what that "incipient organ" junk is supposed to mean. Is that another way of saying "what good is half a wing." Well, check out a penguin to find out. Look at a seal flipper. It has the same bones, arranged in the same way as a monkey. What good is it for a land animal? And what does "fully functional" mean? What function? Perhaps the new organ had a different purpose - take the clawed hands of fossil birds for example. They were good for catching prey and climbing, just like they were for their dinosaur ancestors. But those clawed wings also allowed early birds to fly.'
+p9608
+aS"Well let me put it like this, I consider it your duty because if you don't protect yourself then you basically shift that responsibility to someone else. Not only is this incredibly selfish, but 9 out of 10 times the 'protection business' gets outsourced to the State.   This in itself it dangerous because when people decide that a third party like the State (which has no real accountability) has control over their lives it can all to easily lead to a situation where the State becomes tyrannical.   More people have been killed by their own government than by any foreign government."
+p9609
+aS'Which is what they did to the Jews.'
+p9610
+aS'Is the Ammo Shortage the Result of a Government Conspiracy or an NRA Marketing Campaign?'
+p9611
+aS"It's evidence of EAM. Probably she comes from a large family. Her mother always had her hands full and was on her feet day and night."
+p9612
+aS'A taste of what could be our future if the left has its way.'
+p9613
+aS'**   Quod erat demonstrandum.'
+p9614
+aS"no, you just live on delusions.   you can't argue the merits of creationism on their own because they don't exist.   Creationism is a fraud regardless of the existance of evolution."
+p9615
+aS'And science helped Stenger write his book. How can the same subject make a stronger case for both of two completely opposing viewpoints?   another'
+p9616
+aS"Well then this doesn't answer my question.   If you have 10 doctors for 100 people (this is just an example) and only 50 of them have health insurance and each doctor gets paid $100 a year then your health care per capita is $10 ([10doctors x $100]/100 people). If you change it to 100 people with health insurance you now have $10 per capita as well because you population did not change. Health care costs are shown per capita and not per person insured: Per Capita Health Expenditures by Country, 2007 &amp;mdash; Infoplease.com   So again, if you go from $6,000 per capita per that website given above to say Switzerland levels at $4,100 per capita then where did that money come from?"
+p9617
+aS"If atheism is a religion, than yes and atheism. If it's not then no.   _________________"
+p9618
+aS'LOL! If my post was about either of those things, I would cut it down. The vast majority of the post, however, is about the objections to irreducible complexity.'
+p9619
+aS'These "infants" do. My mother could have aborted me and she chose to have me.   And if the state decides to keep abortion legal? Then you don\'t care if these "gifts from God" have a chance or not?'
+p9620
+aS"You know 'my kind'? How very presumptuous on your part. Then you know individual choice is the issue, not enforced medical procedures. You didn't answer the question regarding pregnant women who intend to carry to term being required to have a sonogram."
+p9621
+aS"Well, I am a creationist, and I would hope I can think logically (it's generally a good quality for an accountant and tax attorney to have). The difference between microevolution and evolution as an explanation for the beginning of a species is simple. In microevolution a species is simply adapting to it's environments. In evolution as is usually meant by the word you are talking about the formation of an entirely new creature from inorganic compounds. If this is possible I pose a few questions for you.   1) Why have no new creatures evolved from inorganic compounds in human memory?   2) How did these inorganic compounds decide that some creatures should evolve, while others of the same species did not? Why are there not some apes that have evolved into humans by now? Why didn't all apes evolve into humans?   3) One of my favorite pieces of confusion from evolutionists involve fossils. How do you know how old a fossil is? Every evolutionist I have asked has stated that fossils are dated by the rock layer they are found in, but if you then ask them how the rock layer is dated they answer that it is dated by the fossils that where discovered in it! That's a classical example of circular reasoning.   I am not a scientist, so I cannot present all the evidence against evolution as clearly as someone with a scientific education and background might do. If you are truly interested in learning more about the creationist arguments against evolution you can check out the article located at http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2004/1106ng.asp. This article also has many links to other articles with even more information."
+p9622
+aS'He is a hell of a lot wiser than thee.'
+p9623
+aS'Well now, there you go. . . .RIGHT ON!!'
+p9624
+aS"But your proof didn't claim that God could do anything possible. Maybe only one person could build a computer, maybe one person could make a car, maybe one person could run the mile in under 4 minutes. That doesn't mean that God can do ALL of these things. It means that whoever we define to be the greatest being, we can call him god and thus he exists. Of course this wouldn't be sufficient to Christians as this says that God is probably mortal and has the limits of being a physical being."
+p9625
+aS"I had researched some stuff about viruses that was applicable about life in general because it is the only thing that is not defintely classified.   So the argument was about life, the other stuff was just peripheral. Don't make such a big deal about including other tings in it."
+p9626
+aS'Yes. Oddly, the picture makes as much sense as most creationists.'
+p9627
+aS"You mean, the perpetrator is convicted and the defender acquitted? Yes, that's the rule and not the exception. Notice here how no-one ended up dead, or even particularly seriously injured. Additionally the circumstances described are incredibly rare, that's why it makes the news."
+p9628
+aS'So why are you here? Do you have anything to offer of any substance?'
+p9629
+aS'I see I jumped the gun. That was well stated.'
+p9630
+aS"Pregnancy is always harmful to the woman's body. However, if the pregnancy is desired then the changes are welcomed by the woman.   To a woman who does not want to be pregnant then those changes are very unwelcome and are a bad thing. Pregnancy is always harmful, but the perception of what is happening changes depending on the woman.   You do not understand that whether or not pregnancy harms the woman's body is objective, but whether or not the woman wants the pregnancy anyway depends on the woman. You are mixing the two."
+p9631
+aS'Doesn\'t it ever bother you that you have to come up with ridiculous hypothetical sci-fi scenarios to attempt to prove your side?   First of all, do you really think a head on life support is going to "be no different mentally from someone with a body."? I would say that would probably mess with somebody\'s head a bit.   Secondly, you sound like you believe this person who is a head on life support deserves equal rights. They are just as helpless as a fetus in the womb. Are you saying it\'s okay to murder people who can\'t think and talk? Do you believe that thinking and talking is what qualifies a person for rights?'
+p9632
+aS"What is your point? Should we revert to old laws that allow for slavery?   Over the history of mankind we have struggled to understand God. God has revealled part of Himself to us, but it is difficult for the limited mind to know the unlimited mind.   The US had laws enabling this? Does this mean you weren't a democracy then?   When you were a child, and had total awe of your parents, and believed what they told you, were you less of a person then?   Surely you understand that what your parents taught you then, was a part of you growining and becoming an adult.   God for instance calls Himself 'Father'. This isn't because He has 'male sex organs' but because it is the best way for us to understand His relationship to us.   Likewise, the Jews made laws in order to best live according to God's Will. They did make mistakes, and got bogged down in the law. Jesus came (as promised by God) and liberated us from the entrapment we had set for ourselves.   Surely you don't advocate that we should return to a strict observence of Mosaic laws?"
+p9633
+aS'If this is true, then it should cover the fetus since there is no difference between the fetus and the infant besides size and location. Every adult was once a teen, every teen was once a child, every child was once an infant and every infant was once a fetus.'
+p9634
+aS'College. They are normally studied for two years between the ages of 16 and 18 before going to uni.'
+p9635
+aS'LOL TOOO FUNNY'
+p9636
+aS'The 7 day creation I am referring to, not merely the possibility of divine creation through the Big bang etc'
+p9637
+aS'They aren\'t afraid of that. That a government agency would actually be financially competitive is ridiculous.   The only way it could compete for customers would be by running at an enormous loss or legislating away competition. That\'s what people are "afraid" of, not some idiotic speculation that government is great at business.'
+p9638
+aS'A lot of work has been done on that topic. I would recommend reading Debating Design from Darwin to DNA It is a monster of a book, but it is definitely worth the read.'
+p9639
+aS"'IF' is the question. It suggests that Holy Tradition does not know the answer.   Secondly, the issue of the flood itself could still be true and tested scientifically... as to whether an historical Noah existed that you might consign to 'myth'.   Does anyone here not find it interesting that there is almost a universal factor in societies concerning a global flood?   PS I have already discussed M-Eve on another post."
+p9640
+aS'And it doesn\'t stop there. Another of my favorites is how they loudly criticize radiometric dating (most commonly radiocarbon dating because they know no other kind) then shout from the rooftops that radiometric dating confirms the "genuineness" of ~2000 year old manuscripts...'
+p9641
+aS'You are free to disagree with the article, Chemist99a, but it was written by a scientist. You are quite free to believe biological complexity is the result of "natural selection" somehow organizing a bunch of genetic accidents into complex biological systems. I suspect you will become increasingly unable to impose that view upon everyone else.   Questions about Materialismwith some pretty funny stuff about Freud.'
+p9642
+aS"um, yeah, you could say that... (won't argue... left up to the evolution board)"
+p9643
+aS"So what? If somebody wants to die then they'll kill themselves no matter what."
+p9644
+aS"...and if RMNS doesn't explain the development of hands or feet, it's pretty safe to say it doesn't explain the development of anything else, either."
+p9645
+aS'Huh? Did we win? When?'
+p9646
+aS'But you think SETI is worthwhile!'
+p9647
+aS"Only when it is anti-intellecutal relgion, such as those YEC's.   Most relgiions are much more reasonable."
+p9648
+aS"But you haven't looked. You may claim that your god did it, and no evidence to support or deny that can be offered. The assertion relies on miracle and has no suporting evidence. But when you start talking about how your god did it, your claims can be debunked by facts. Certainly the mythology of ancient nomadic herdsmen is not accurate. If you look at the world and the history of the world the is evident in the geologic strata, then you can see that the earth is very old, and you can see a succession of organisms through time. When considered with other fields of science from genetics to biogeography to physiology and anatomy, evolution becomes apparent."
+p9649
+aS"And many of those countries are having problems with it. Furthermore, we aren't even proposing what other countries have."
+p9650
+aS"Archie, instead of deciding before hand that I'm wrong, read what I'm saying. What trees were growing during this flood? I'm guessing there were no acorns sprouting into oaks during the flood. Therefore, in this flood sediment, we would find no rooted trees. We would find no burrows, and we would find no tracks.   Now we've seen you can't answer my question. Whether this is because you didn't understand it, or didn't want to consider it, I don't know. But there is no global flood sediment which meets the criteria neccessary to demonstrate a global flood."
+p9651
+aS'And where, pray tell are you pulling THIS strawman from?'
+p9652
+aS'So what standards of proof do you hold the bible to? What allows you to hold it next to other religious or fantastical texts and say "Yes, this one is definately, without fail, the word of God, and this one is not."'
+p9653
+aS"The 'teachings' either have no substance, or are certainly not original. Demonstrate categorically just who is the Son of God, and why this figure commands worship and obeisance."
+p9654
+aS"Just like we waited until after society decided how it would view civil rights for blacks?   No one is forcing you to debate the constitutional issues. If you don't wish to, fine; don't. I seriously doubt if anyone would miss your input."
+p9655
+aS'First of all. Excuse me for my english writing-skills.   Being a Norwegian citizen with free universal healthcare, it is pretty hard to understand why many of you Americans are so afraid of a little more govermental influence in the healtcare-business. Everybody knows that healthcare costs money. So why accept that a large ammount of your money is going right in the pockets of the insurancecompanies? Shouldn\xc2\xb4t your money result in healthcare and not in profit for some greedy company?   To be honest I\xc2\xb4m happy to be Norwegian instead of American.   When I get sick I can go to any hospital and get the best treatment available without having to worry about the costs. What\xc2\xb4s wrong with that guys? Of course it comes at a price. We probably pay higher taxes than you. But I do not pay for insurance, and bottom line I think most people are better off this way. At least I\xc2\xb4m getting healthcare for my money without supporting insurancecompanies that makes a profit out of peoples health-issues.   Any comments?'
+p9656
+aS"It's a flawed step in the right direction.   I support it compared to nothing. I did not support it when they were considering CUs vs. full marriage. They took the politically expedient way out.   Lest you leap to any unwarranted conclusions, my main objection is the blatent inequality inhererent in CUs."
+p9657
+aS"No, I think you're trying to do more than that. You're trying to say that the increase in crime is due to a lack of gun ownership, aren't you? Because if you are, the article you cite doesn't back up that claim.   What, no actual data to back up any of your claims? Do you have access to US crime numbers? How many armed breakins do you get in a country where people do have guns? That's the comparison that needs to be made here."
+p9658
+aS'And i dont really believe in god because he has shown us NO compelling evidence of his existance.'
+p9659
+aS"That sentence doesn't even make sense. Did it occur to you that you should actually think about what you are going to say and express actual ideas?"
+p9660
+aS"Simple. The big government people will tell you that it's in everybody's best interest. The criminals will just kill you without debate."
+p9661
+aS"Why are you dishonest enough to claim that you aren't trying to get YEC into the schools."
+p9662
+aS'But I already pointed out the mark of Cain in another thread.   http://www.4forums.com/political/sho...57&amp;postcount=1   You see, this particular gene has but two alleles. One exists in the majority of humans. That allele, along with several other genes involved in pigmentation create people with various shades of brown to very brown skin. The second allele was created by a more recent mutation and spread in a more limited population. That allele produces white skin.'
+p9663
+aS"Well, HRC estimates that the costs would be negligable and that some governments would actually save money. They site many studies on the issue, which I have not taken the time to look up, as I think this sort of statistic is worthless. It is unreasonable to ask same-sex couples to pay for the marriage of opposite-sex couples without asking opposite-sex couples to return this payment. Still, you seem very concerned about it, so I will provide this link:   http://www.hrc.org/Template.cfm?Sect...entDisplay.cfm   It is an interest group in favor of gay rights, yes, but that doesn't make them wrong. I did have a link to an actual study on the topic, but I cannot seem to find it. I'm sure if I scoured the Internet more, I could come up with something."
+p9664
+aS'And depending on what human is "finding the answers" it can unfortunately cheapen and deny many central Biblical teachings.'
+p9665
+aS"Actually, evolution occurs on the level of the population: individuals don't change, but populations do. See the examples above."
+p9666
+aS"Pretty good considering Darwin wasn't aware of genetics. Too bad Wells is stuck in 1859. The modern synthesis provides perfectly legitimate mechanisms."
+p9667
+aS"Zoos are indeed a good example. Although the environments are made as close as possible to the natural habitats, penguins are often kept in open-air enclosures in temperate or even tropical climates. And there are two critical differences in even the most carefully constructed zoo: the absence of any predators, and the absence of any prey. So why don't the animals quickly/purposefully/nonrandomly cease exhibiting developmentally costly traits which give them an advantage against predators or prey who aren't present?"
+p9668
+aS'You got it. People make mistakes. Finally you see that scientists are just as human as religious people.'
+p9669
+aS'yeah, this is clearly the best thread on these forums in probably the past year....give us some more pics'
+p9670
+aS'You could put the stranger out even if they had nowhere to go and it was freezing cold out.'
+p9671
+aS'I think I, and the other members of what I\'ll call the "scientific community", must be masochists of sorts as well, we continually return to these threads and bang our heads against minds that are stone walls - completely impervious to reason or logic.   I think, no, I know, that there are two main reasons why I return to these threads. The first one is simple, I\'m amazed at the scientific illiteracy of the average YEC, especially when science is often their justification for belief.   The second and major reason is simply my fascination with how the mind of the Creationist works. Their desperation to justify their faith is so powerful it drives them to completely abandon mainstream science and logic in favour of an isolated coccoon of reality. The insecurity in their faith that the entire pseudoscience of creationism betrays is the most ironic part.   As you say, most quickly realize that they\'re in over their heads, that what they\'ve been told in their churches doesn\'t stand up to scrutiny in the real world. So, rather than continuing down a path that will bring them no good, they retreat and bury their heads in the comforting sand of "not knowing any better". However, there always seems to be one or two that are so deeply entrenched, that they simply can\'t retreat, they\'ve got too much invested.   The psychology, more than the science, is fascinating to me.   Waxy'
+p9672
+aS'What?'
+p9673
+aS'Hmmm... so, barren women can not have a valid point of view nor women in the stage of menopause because it does not affect them personally. Perhaps you should tell the moderator to institute women only Forums, men only Forums, gays only Forums\xe2\x80\xa6. etc'
+p9674
+aS"If you think something is correct then you believe this.   That's all believe means.   I believe the above statement is very true.   Except that you wouldn't have to completely change your ideas or beliefs about the universe all the time. But you'd have to modify them.   Anyway, who said beliefs had to be static and fixed?"
+p9675
+aS"Just because it is human doesn't mean it's a human being. I'm not sure what grade you're in but that's basic biology 101. Your ears are human. Your ears are NOT human beings."
+p9676
+aS'In my reading of the Declaration (and using the 1st. Amendment as a filter) it doesn\'t matter who or what the founders meant by "Creator." The conlusion is the same; regardless.   Namely; The fact that the founders considered our basic rights to be inherrent.'
+p9677
+aS'I think he meant a sycophant.'
+p9678
+aS"In Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, all are one in Christ Jesus - Galatians 3:28   Jesus doesn't care whether you're male or female."
+p9679
+aS"And the answer is: we don't know. Maybe it came from nowhere. Maybe it was created. We don't know."
+p9680
+aS"But it has never been claimed that everything developet simultaneously. Probably not.   So back to the original question that you ducked with ad hoc arguments. What is Archaeopteryx. If it is a bird, why does it have a tail, grastalia, teeth, pre-orbital fenestra, and on and on. If it isn't a bird then why does it have feathers, opposable hallux, pneumatic bones, a furcula, and even a small carina in one specimen? How can creationism explain Archaeopteryx?   http://home.houston.rr.com/bybayouu/...graphica_1.jpg"
+p9681
+aS"The purposeful taking of life regulated by the government is something that is decided by the people. The people decide what determines what is allowable and what is not. When it is acceptable and when it is not. This is done in agreement, obviously not unanimous. Theses laws are created by the view of society at the time. Our society permits the ability to change those laws as our values change.   You may call it murder, but you are wrong. There is no logical argument you can present to make your view correct. To suggest that legal abortion is anything else is an expression of your frustration why others don't share your views. There is no logic in your argument it's pure emotion and an immature understanding of how to cope with problems that don't go your way.   If you think your view is indeed the view that is best for the people then be thankful in the US the opportunity exists for you to effect that. I can assure you though lieing about it, sensationalizing it, bullying people about it isn't going to get many people to consider you.   Please do us both a favor before you go off on a discourse of the rights, or feelings or value of the fetus remember what I said about we as a society decided what is acceptable and what is not. We make these laws for ourselves for that reason, because we do attempt to value life. That attempt does not always satisfy all of the people all of the time, but it never will.   I don't need a formula to understand how our society functions nor do I stomp my foot and throw insults or intimidate people who don't see you being right. Nor would I justify behavior that from anybody else concerning something of less import would be unacceptable. If you don't like the law, then do something about it. If this is what you deem to be the best and most effective way to do that, I suggest you find a to become comfortable with it."
+p9682
+aS"So you're saying that the theory of evolution is similar to ####, in that they both make large messes when they come into contact with fans?"
+p9683
+aS'As is obvious, not all would.'
+p9684
+aS"Thanks, my friend, as you can see, Jito completely ignored the substance of my argument as it applies to the current american culture, as she responded to how it would apply to her personal life's credo. A more dishonest way of avoiding the meat of my argument couldn't be formed except by a manipulative, insincere and philosophical coward of jitobear's caliber. That's why there's nothing she wrote that's worth responding to. As usual she hasn't actually responded to anything I said. Why must these leftists twist what we say as they ignore the actual substance of it?"
+p9685
+aS"You not differentiating between the beaver and the beaver dam, the bird and the bird's nest or the man and the man's truck. The dams, nests and truck do not occur naturally...they are constructed by the naturally occuring animals using materials that occur in nature (albeit we have to smelt the iron and vulcanize the rubber whilst the birds and beavers just stick stuff together)."
+p9686
+aS"Oh, so you were not in any way talking about evolution in these posts? Then why are they posted on the c vs e board?   Please, that's just pathetic."
+p9687
+aS"So I have the choice between staying safe and then claiming insurance damages, or risking my life to kill a burglar and (likely) cause damage to my own property in the process?   Somehow, I'd rather stay safe. Better to lose my laptop than my life."
+p9688
+aS"I'm afraid you're wrong, as I created you in my universe, and implanted in you a belief that you were a god. It lead you to make statements about the truth of your own beliefs, which I'm afraid are just self-beliefs with no real evidence.   Sorry."
+p9689
+aS'What would you know about fair and balanced?   I know a lot of truths about gays. Do you want me to start posting incessant threads pointing them all out?   And I am the moderator for the formal debate forum, not the entire board. Want to debate me on the benefits of gays on society vs Christianity?'
+p9690
+aS'I believe once you have the rights granted persons that they may not be taking away because you are asleep or in a coma. Not unless of course it can be shown that higher brain activity has ceased and there is no reasonable expectation that it could return.'
+p9691
+aS'Pretty much every experiment ever carried out in a petri-dish; take your pick Also the revisited peppered moth experiment I linked to earlier.'
+p9692
+aS"What other theories? Why mention them if you aren't going to explain them? You are actually on a board of education? I notice there was no mention of telling kids that there are other theories of gravity and that all of them have holes. Evolution is a more secure theory than gravity."
+p9693
+aS'I see no reason why secular shows should be required to mention your mythology.'
+p9694
+aS"Oh, he doesn't want abortion, huh? If you take the Old Testament to be true, you just lied here.   Let's look, shall we?"
+p9695
+aS"Actually it couldn't be any worse then it is right now. More people historically have died at the hands of religious wars then non-religion. Religion has been used to push extreme political viewpoints, selfishness, racism, destruction of whole cultures, hatred, and ignorance. Wow that's something for you to be proud of eh grizzly6626? Through religion, televangelists have become pimps where cash is more important than integrity. While I haven't seen any atheists with bombs strapped to themselves, we've all see plenty of religious fools blowing themselves up each and every day. And of course we all know how peaceful and charitable The Spanish Inquisition was. I guess it's true, when it comes to religion IGNORANCE is bliss...   BTW - you forgot to mention that hitler was a devout catholic.   Yeah, like I said before, it couldn't be any worse then it is right now"
+p9696
+aS'But they are implemented completely differently.'
+p9697
+aS'The Sun was crucial in the evolution of most life on the planet, but it may not have been the main cause of the very beginning of life. There are hypotheses that energy necessary, chemical catalysts available, Carbon, Nitrogen, Hydrogen, but not Oxygen apart from being part of the Water molecule. There are tectonic activated hot springs and chimneys in the deep sea. There is an availability of Sulfur, heat energy, and the triggering of a Sulphur based metabolism. It was internal energy from up welling and down welling of hot magma which in turn was fuelled by core radioactivity. Some even speculate that the very centre of the core may be pure Uranium.   However, there is no need to debate the Second Law of Thermodynamics. It is a ruse by Magical Creationists who deliberately and in my opinion deceptively make Earth a closed entropy system.   Cuchulainn   PS: Fundies have an obligation to show why the fires of Hell are exempt from the 2nd Law. I already know the answer. Hell is imaginary and imaginary things do not gain entropy.'
+p9698
+aS"And when supersport says that the fossil record was created by god to test the faith of the people? He could make his hypothesis unfalsifiable, and he wouldn't care that it would be unscientific."
+p9699
+aS"Well I'm glad its no problem for your son. No child deserves to be harrassed."
+p9700
+aS'Whether or not the 2nd Amendment was written to provide for the protection of the States from a foreign invasion, or border dispute, or Civil War, it is clear that the objective of the 2nd Amendment is to address the basic provisions and control required to form a militia reporting to the President.   One of the provisions to form a militia is explicitly stated in the   2nd Amendment as the unrestricted Right of the individual to own guns.   At that time in our history, when a militia was formed, it was expected that individuals would bring their own gun(s) to the militia. That provision is THE IMPLICIT PURPOSE of the Right of the individual to own guns.   Within the 2nd Amendment, there are NO OTHER IMPLICIT, NOR EXPLICIT purposes pertaining to the unrestricted Right of the individual to own gun(s).   In other words, the 2nd Amendment does NOT IMPLICITLY, NOR EXPLICITLY suggest or expand its purpose beyond what it required for a militia, and the control of a militia.   The 2nd Amendment does NOT provide an individual the Right to own gun(s) for the PURPOSE OF providing for: food, self-defense, target practice, a hobby as a collector, or fun..   Therefore, ANY OTHER PURPOSE OR REASON for the possession of guns that has been attributed to rights under the 2nd Amendment is based entirely upon thoughts and purposes that were NOT IN THE MINDS OF the Founding Fathers when the 2nd Amendment was written.   The Founding Fathers knew many people required guns to provide for food, income, and home-defense. Yet, the Founding Fathers did not separate the purpose of the unrestricted Right of individuals to own guns for a militia, from the SOLE PURPOSE of owning guns for the creation of a militia.   The Founding Fathers did not write the 2nd Amendment in a manner that   would even suggest that the Right of an individual to own guns had purposes beyond a militia, that would provide for: food, self-defense, target practice, a hobby as a collector, or fun..   We may therefore conclude that, any reason or purpose for an individual owning a gun, OTHER THAN for a militia, is not provided for under the 2nd Amendment, and that current gun laws for private ownership of guns is mistaken.   Justifications or reasons to provide individuals with a Right to own guns for a purpose or reason other than a militia, would have to be based on some Amendment, other than the 2nd Amendment, to determine if any such Right exists for individual gun ownership exists.   That the Founding Fathers did not write all Amendments with the explicit and specific Rights of individuals for every condition and circumstance is self-explanatory, as the size of the Bill of Rights and the Constitution would be enormous, and the Founding Fathers would still be busy writing the Bill of Rights and a Constitution if that was the case.   However, the Founding Fathers were very careful in their use of words and phrases, and in the logical composition of a Constitution, and that they decided not to specify other purposes exist that justify individual gun ownership, beyond a militia, in the 2nd Amendment. That decision would appear to be intentional.   Although it might ideal to understand all that the Founding Fathers had in mind, when the Constitution was written, it must also be understood   and concluded that what was the basis for a rational giving the Founding Fathers reasons to create an Amendment, and chose specific terms, phrases, and specifics, may not exist today, nor even be of any importance.   For example, individuals need not carry guns from their home to where our troops will gather. Today?s ?militia? provides for the a militia?s need, and an individual?s need for guns. What the Founding Fathers once wrote with respect to an individual possessing a gun for the purpose of a militia and the remainder of the 2nd Amendment requires revision or elimination.'
+p9701
+aS"I'm not surprised.   That's a typical response when someone calls your bluff.   Waxy"
+p9702
+aS'Muslims.'
+p9703
+aS'Oh dear God your ignorance is abundant!   Do you not understand what the federal DOMA law does?'
+p9704
+aS"Maybe He doesn't punish them."
+p9705
+aS'From your own link it is very clear the NRA DID NOT say that or publish that. Your clearly very wrong.'
+p9706
+aS"Well, now this is the question that really matters, and the answer is a long one. But to state it as simply as possible: denying same-sex marriage hurts many people. It forces same-sex couples to pay for the marriage of opposite-sex couples while no one is forced to pay for their marriages. It denies them access to raise children and ability to cover their children and spouses with their medical insurance, along with the many other benefits of marriage. It uses the law to teach the people that the lifestyle and religion held by same-sex couples is wrong, and this forces them to feel the disapproval of society.   There is no reason to perpetuate these harms. I have heard many arguments opposed to same-sex marriage, but there is not even one of them that justifies these harms. In fact, I would even say that there is not one argument against same-sex marriage that makes logical sense at all. Thus, even if same-sex marriage brought no benefits, there would be no reason to keep it illegal; a free and equal society does not deny rights or benefits to anyone, unless it has a very good reason to. And there just isn't any reason to deny rights and benefits to same-sex couples."
+p9707
+aS'What basis do fundamental rights derive from? In other words, how can we tell whether something is a fundamental human right?'
+p9708
+aS'Yea that was uncle John!'
+p9709
+aS"Oh shut up! You're just sore because your side lost in the McDonald case and now you're left with absolutely nothing. You know that many gun laws are going to fall to the sword of justice, and you just can't stand the fact that your side is going to be brought back into check, just like any other."
+p9710
+aS"I am hardly a phyicist, but I am under the impression that there is at least some people who feel there is reason that there are 'uncaused causes'. I think that   the terms used are 'Vacuum flucuations', and 'virtual particles'. I am not aware   of any peer reviewed articles on it , but a popular press book is 'Achilles in the quantum world' by Richard Morris."
+p9711
+aS'Why don\'t you just sum it up with "If you\'re not a fundamentalist Christian"?   You also fail to consider Christian agnostics.'
+p9712
+aS'No, it is not a bad deal for the child. However, my beliefs do not permit murder, even if it is a better "deal".'
+p9713
+aS'But the point is why are there relatively few creationists. The reason is that the creationist position cannot be defended in open debate. That is why creationist boards censor opposing views. On boards where creationists are not protected there are few.'
+p9714
+aS'Our national parks are safe as is, huh? Regular people have no reason to feel to need to carry concealed weapons for their own protection, huh? How can you be safe when mexican drug cartel members are literally behind the next bush and inclined to kill you for stumbling upon their operation?'
+p9715
+aS'Because she, like every other political figurehead, thinks it\'s alright for her to carry a gun, but not anybody else.   If she DIDN\'T support a ban on all firearms, then why did she say "If I could have gotten 51 votes in the Senate of the United States for an outright ban, picking up every one of them -- Mr. and Mrs. America, turn them all in -- I would have done it."'
+p9716
+aS'Oh I can easily spend $1,000 dollars an hour. If I could I would also have plenty of reason to live to be 114.'
+p9717
+aS'So every woman who has an abortion lives an irresponsible life. Care to give any examples, or are you just spouting rubbish with no experience or knowledge whatsoever?'
+p9718
+aS'I see a subtle distinction here. Creationism is concerned with the spiritual origins of people. "Evolutionism" is entirely concerned with explaining the nature and history of the physical world. The conflict of opinion arises out of the importance of the detail- can Genesis be accepted as a parable which contains a fundemental truth or must it be taken as a historical account?'
+p9719
+aS'Yes. The first one isolated was a frame-shift mutation on a plasmid. A fairly common source of useful mutations in bacteria.'
+p9720
+aS'Bonus question:   (Can you spot the grammatical error within the quoted text?)'
+p9721
+aS'You know, that sounds exactly what you are doing. I guess you are as foolish as they are.'
+p9722
+aS"If we were created in God's image, then it would make sense that equally our emotions are a reflection of God's emotions. That our emotions are imperfect versions of his.   Of course I would personally say that when man invented god, they felt the need to give him human characteristics in order to make their invention more understandable. And to assist in the oppression of others by the ever-present threat of an 'angry god who will smite you'. An 'ambivalent god who is above that sort of thing' just isn't as good at convincing people that whatever you say is right."
+p9723
+aS"Because I don't feel like copying and pasting articles into a forum when they can be easily accessed online. But for a quick summary: The CCR-5 gene mutation is present in about 15% of caucasians, with 1% having the homogeneous version. These 1% are completely immune. The heterogeneous people possess some immunity."
+p9724
+aS"This decision was not solely based on self, but then, I really don't give a if you want to call me selfish - the facts speak for themselves."
+p9725
+aS"So, in other words, what you're saying is that the Pope, who just declared that all Christian Churches apart from the RCC to be false churches, including we evangelicals/fundamentalists is a fundie himself ? JPs right Matt, take your meds and do it quickly."
+p9726
+aS"**   Actually it provided proof that RMNS doesn't explain the development of hands and feet, but I don't expect you to be able to understand that."
+p9727
+aS'I believe abortion is murder and should be illegal. The only possible circumstance when an abortion should be an option is when the \xe2\x80\x9cLIFE\xe2\x80\x9d of both the mother and her unborn child is at risk. When both lives are going to be lost, it is better to save one as opposed to losing two. The holocaust on the unborn children of this country is something that we should be ashamed of as a country.'
+p9728
+aS'How many opponents of liberal gun laws live in urban areas?'
+p9729
+aS"Really? A lot of people say that every answer makes more questions. In some ways we seem to know less now than we did at the time of Newton, in that we are less certain.   And Newton's laws deal with what happens in a vacuum with no resistance, not direct human experience   At any rate, my point is that you can't see all the evidence as piling up support for 'science' as 'science' is moulded to fit that evidence. Not a criticism of science, btw."
+p9730
+aS'Such as?'
+p9731
+aS'How many court decisions have said that it is unconstitutional to regulate guns in any way?'
+p9732
+aS'How do you know none of the "children" were actually gang members engaged in illegal activity, and that fact was simply excluded because it wasn\'t considered newsworthy?'
+p9733
+aS'And yet you have no problem with this law Galileo?'
+p9734
+aS"Not if they give him the death penalty, then it's apeals till your ears bleed."
+p9735
+aS"I'm thinking this is the section of the Iowa Constitution the media will be talking about next:   Unlike California, amendments in Iowa must pass the legislature first (simple majority) before going to the voters. While I know little about the Iowa legislature, this seems a no brainer in a populace vote, considering previous votes and more current polls on this subject in Iowa. As a rule I lend polls very little credence, but DOMA passed by a wide majority in 1998. I doubt things have changed enough to cover the gap, a lot of traditional values and religious folks in Iowa."
+p9736
+aS'Just to be sure you understood, it was the picture below that picture you were supposed to look at.'
+p9737
+aS'See above, please cite.'
+p9738
+aS"Well they'd be the experts on it; most of their members have been ruled as fitting under said category.   Let's face facts. Nobody who's in their right mind could actually believe the kind of nonsense they spread."
+p9739
+aS"Are you trying to make a point here? Or are you just spewing forth your hoplophobic tendencies because you're got nothing better to do?   One of the problems with school children is that it's become a crime to discipline them the way our parents were disciplined. There's no spankings, corner times, or sitting on a chair with a dunce cap, because that's all been labeled as abuse to emotional development. Instead we have counseling and the administration of powerful prescription drugs to kids who can barely read.   Kids are spoiled rotten and left unsupervised with TV shows and video games that glorify violence and murdering people for fun. Parents are stuck working two or more jobs just to make enough money for bills so they don't wind up on the streets.   We need massive reform. We gotta go back to how kids were raised in the 50s."
+p9740
+aS'Obama overturns ban on overseas abortion funding   I thought abortion was the fix for bad or no family planning'
+p9741
+aS"This obviously depends on the person. Both are not good...once again, a comparision is not gonna work. Whether you are an alcoholic or a weed-a-holic(not a real word) you will still mess up your health (which is a good reason we shouldn't have public health care)."
+p9742
+aS'You believe two things that are incorrect: that you have refuted evolutionary theory, and that we will now accept intellegent design because of your attempt.'
+p9743
+aS'Pregnancy is a health issue only for the woman. Your glib remark pretending to sympathy is insulting.'
+p9744
+aS"But it took a lot longer to develop. My point was that only after about 5000 years of human civilization did empiricism as science develop. Religion, supernaturalism, and mythology trace back into prehistory. What we know as science didn't even begin to exist until the late 1500s and 1600s. Before that it was OK to do science like Aristotle did - no experiment, only thinking about a logical answer. Thus, heavy objects fell faster than light ones and any fool could tell that the sun orbited the earth.   But science is more than an inner way of thinking. It is a process and a method for learning about the universe. It is called methodological naturalism. That is not to say the science asserts that nothing exists except what is natural. It says that science can't study the supernatural."
+p9745
+aS'Well, Google is your friend here - try fossil and see what you get. Alternatively click the link in my sig and look in the archive section at Talk Origins.   It is not possible to break fossilisation down into such simple notions as "one big preservation event" and lots of "little preservations". If you can think of some examples of fossils then we can examine them more specifically as what can be said about the circumstances of their preservation.   I\'ve been a bit vague here as it is a) such a broad subject to describe succinctly b) I\'m tired and c) I\'m full of cold   No doubt someone who isn\'t under the influence of b) and/or c) will chime in as well with more details while I pull round.   Now, where was my hankerchief......'
+p9746
+aS'The attacker is usually armed in spite of gun control laws. All they do is disarm the law abiding. Not to mention the lack of enforcement on criminals.'
+p9747
+aS'I\'d say no to the first part, and yes to the second. The "information theory" argument is something that gets brought up on forums alot, generally by people who don\'t know what information theory is, but I\'ve never seen an "official" ID person claim it as a central argument.   The basic argument is that stuff, from the universe, to people, to eyeballs, to DNA, is too complex to have "just happened". Someone, (and they won\'t say God, cause their not trying to be religious here, oh no...) must have designed them.'
+p9748
+aS'Because...'
+p9749
+aS'That is amazing.   I find it crazy that this baby is much younger and smaller and far less developed than many of the babies that are aborted. Abortion is murder.'
+p9750
+aS"But still, if you think there are rights in the bill of rights that is wrong, that should not be granted or guaranteed, it would be a viable option to vote for removing them.   What debate are you trying to end here? The debate: 'do you want little or less gun-control'?"
+p9751
+aS'Assuming this right exists....you could say that you have no right to kill it though, you can only try to starve it.   -You have consented sex and get pregnant. The pregnancy is a direct consequence that was known when having sex.   -You have consented to a stranger coming into your house to eat dinner. The stranger coming in and sitting down and using your plates and eating your food is a direct consequences of you inventing him in for dinner.   -If you say you don\'t want the unborn to "live off you" anymore then the only thing you can do is starve it because you can\'t kill it as it did nothing that it was not allowed to do until just now.   -You have decided the stranger must go, however, you don\'t have a right to kill him right there as you didn\'t give him any reasonable time to leave.'
+p9752
+aS"If a child comes in for an abortion and fears abuse from her parents then law enforcement should be notified. The only people protected by opposing notification laws are abusers and pedophiles. No elective, invasive medical proceedure should be performed on a child without the consent of a parent or judge.   If a minor is allowed to have an abortion without consent the parents/ guardians will have no idea whats been done to this child should complications arise, they wouldn't be able to give this information to a ER doctor or the childs pediatrition."
+p9753
+aS"As I mentioned above, science curriculums follow paths. One's worldview plays heavily on one's interpretation of scientific data. An agnostic, or atheist teaching establishment can become satisfied with one path of scientific theories without searching for others. There may be more to be discovered about thermodynamics, cell structure, irreducible complexity, the decay rate of the earth's magnetic field, radiometric dating, the fossil record, and countless other things that a teaching establishment may not be interested in exploring, if it's comfortable with it's interpretation of current data's indications that the happenstance origins worldview is correct. It goes back to what we touched on before - teaching students HOW to think, not WHAT to think."
+p9754
+aS'ur wierd!!!!!!!!!'
+p9755
+aS"Oh, don't be so hasty Bear in mind that at the scale upon which bacteria operate, molecules are significant physical structures. The bacterial flagellum, for instance, is an outboard motor constructed directly out of proteins, which are in turn directly, physically translated via RNA from DNA sequences. The physical shape of the folded molecular structure of those proteins is what makes the motor work. So there's nothing abstract about the relationship between DNA and the organism's physical form or abilities."
+p9756
+aS"uh, yeah, that was their intent! Under color of law no less. The truth always seems to be your worst enemy doesn't it?"
+p9757
+aS"No, there really aren't. As for Robertson, why do you think I said he was right (as in global warming is happening and we are largely responsible) by sheer luck?"
+p9758
+aS"That's a bad term. I wouldn't call myself that, but I do know more then average person."
+p9759
+aS'Whether a fetus is a person is not something open to consideration. An apple is not an orange. The reason that we have two words to apply as labels is simply because they absolutely are not the same thing. It is that simple.   Suppose that a fetus is frozen and implanted in a female 22 years later. Is it of legal drinking age at birth? Obviously not. We currently have the technology to actually do this.'
+p9760
+aS"No they don't. We didn't have a tyrannical society back in the 1830s when without a doubt personal autonomy didn't exist for some. The thing is, you don't have absolute personal autonomy now either. And it still doesn't answer my question about where the right came from, you just said there had to be one."
+p9761
+aS"Sure you do . Because like any reprobate, what is wrong, is right to you; and what is right, is wrong to you. So of course you consider anything i believe to be wrong. But just so my original statement isn't lost to your attack, here it is again so it can be clearly interpreted without your tainted condemnation.   Archangel The ugly reality of life in America today regarding the secular humanist Left is that they support free speech as long as you agree with them. If you disagree with them, you are branded as a religious zealot who's determined to take their rights away. What they don't want you to ever realize is that it is they who are tearing at the traditions and customs that America was built upon and gained us the respect of the World at large. And it is their corruption of the morals and values America once represented that is the cause of so much hatred and disrespect from the rest of the World today.   So thanks to the liberal immoral left, we are seen as the moral evil of the World. Not because of the Religious Right as the Left would have you believe."
+p9762
+aS'Well, by the strict defintion of the word "born", an abortion is considered a premature birth.'
+p9763
+aS'What else would you expect from the people who created a god in their own image?   Your thinking here is right, religion has a long history of being egocentric.'
+p9764
+aS'Actually I think most people DO realize this.'
+p9765
+aS'So you know how foolish you are and hope that name calling will distract from that being recognized by everyone. Erectus skulls were smaller because the brain was smaller. You brought up KNM-WT 15000 (Turkana Boy) and you weren\'t even aware that as an adult he would have been about 6\'1" tall? Why is his skull smaller than modern humans?'
+p9766
+aS'Yes.'
+p9767
+aS'So you put words in Machs mouth. This would be acceptable if you were not doing it in a malicious fashion to get some sort of sadistic pleasure but you were instead actually trying to get him to explain himself. At any rate it totally disproves your nonsense about how you above me because you do not put words into peoples mouths because you do the same. You were not being dishonest to start with I admit it would be wrong to deliberately misrepesent you but neither of the circumstances apply here.'
+p9768
+aS"You know how those anti-gunners are?they just kinda get stuck in that same old revolving door.Can't come up with anything new so they rehash."
+p9769
+aS"I know it's almost as silly as thinking gay marriage will undermine heterosexual marriage."
+p9770
+aS'just re-emphasizing'
+p9771
+aS'Right. It was thrown out of schools back in the 1960s, and again in the 1980s when attempts were made to dress creationism up in the jargon of science and call it "Creation science."'
+p9772
+aS"Didn't supersport openly admit he could not prove his own beliefs in divine creation?   For all his dishonesty, you have to admit he's more honest and forthcoming then Marc or AA have been."
+p9773
+aS"The Word of God says otherwise.   Romans 1:25-27 - They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator\xe2\x80\x94who is forever praised...   Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.   You've rewritten Biblical Christianity. 2 Timothy 4:3-4 (New International Version) - For the time will come when they will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear."
+p9774
+aS"So it's the blog's fault that Miller sided with the creationists. Right-o, marc. (I suspect you haven't even read the blog entry in question; I'd be surprised if you've read more than a paragraph of PZ's blog.. ever.)"
+p9775
+aS'Hate to have to spoil things, but the rest of the world has really no interest at all in Kansas and its scholastic problems'
+p9776
+aS'And for good reason. Electrical engineers in general have a pretty poor track record when discussing issues that have nothing to do with... electrical engineering. Examples: Walter ReMine, Fred Williams, etc.'
+p9777
+aS"Fetal Homocide? Toddler Homicide? A human in different stages of development.....Why/or What is the difference?And if someone wanted this legal( Toddler Homicide) ...I don't see much anybody could do legally to stop it..   When women kill their tots they are locked up/ and branded with a criminal record vs the female who callously kills durning the fetal stage.(Double standard?)   I have a couple friends, who have aborted more than once, because they didn't want to lose their girly figure(trivial). I find it eerie and disturbion....."
+p9778
+aS"Well let's put it this way. I really like playing baseball. So I put in a law that says everyone has to play baseball unless they're in a position where it will threaten their life. Since it's such a wonderful thing no one should have any problem with a law passed, right?"
+p9779
+aS'I say, since there are medical uses for the stuff, the drug is not pure harm (as the authoritarians assert.) Marijuana has its benefits and harms, and some of these benefits boil down to a matter of personal preference. Illegalizing it, in effect, dictates a personal preference.'
+p9780
+aS'Why are you against abortion?'
+p9781
+aS"I'm not sure that your comment will encourage any sort of discussion. Certainly no one is glad because your mother died so young. Not even creationists are likely to be gleeful."
+p9782
+aS'Are you sure? What about animals that had a combination of both long and short hair. Such fur would function more efficiently as insulation that either long or short alone.'
+p9783
+aS'1. From what I have learned, different locations breed different surroundings. Human ancestors were migratory pack animals. Where they went, they encountered new types of pressures, causing them to change over time.   2. Different selective pressures. Different areas can lead to different pressures. Some mutations also occured etc. Things like that.   Evolution doesn\'t HAVE to occure non-stop if there is equilibrium. Not everyting is always changing, as far as I learned. Barring mutations that cause significant changes over a lot of time, Apes, Chimps, Monkies wouldn\'t really change all that much. There\'s no real pressure to do so. They are already well-adapted to their surroundings.   Actually however, there really isn\'t that much difference between some of the great apes and Humans. Take the Bonobo Chimps, for example. They have 98% the same DNA as Humans. They are the closest to HOmo Sapien.   3. Niches. Related to above. Crocs, for example, don\'t evolve that much because they are a very successful animal design and they found a place in which they can thrive for generations with little to no changes. Other animals can do the same.   4. As well, humans didn\'t come directly from Apes. We all evolved from a common ancestor who did all of the above.   http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/species.html   Here is a time line of hominid species   http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html   http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/speciation.html   Evolution doesn\'t lead to a higher species, as well. There is no hierarchy in nature. Each species is equally as well "evolved" depending on it\'s environment etc.   A Human is no more evolved than a Chimp or better than a Chimp. Evolution doesn\'t lead to progression, but merely change. It\'s not getting better toward some high standard. Humans just like to think so.'
+p9784
+aS"This is a pretty touchy issue, and I agree with the different points of view.. most of them make sense... while I don't personally agree with abortion, I don't feel that I have the right to tell someone else what they should do. The way I see it, is that it's their body, their life, they are the ones who will be affected by their decision. I don't have to like the choices someone else makes, and I don't have to agree with it, but while I have that right, I also believe that people should have the right to make those decisions. Are these anti-abortion people going to step in and pay for the cost of having the baby, raising it, etc..??? Maybe some of those are the issues people consider when having an abortion. Maybe the woman was raped. I see the point when someone said that the baby should not be punished for that, and I agree with that, but the rape was committed against the woman's will... she didn't ask for that to happen, and if a pregnancy results from that, that is also against her will, so why should she feel that she has to have the child? What does she tell the child when it decides to ask who its father is?? The child could still be born and given up for adoption, and that is a good idea, but maybe the woman will relive the rape throughout the pregnancy by being reminded of it on a daily basis.... all I feel is until it happens to you, and YOU are forced to make these kinds of choices, you shouldn't judge anyone else for the choices that they make."
+p9785
+aS'I think you sound rather immature. And actually, it\'s tough luck for you, Chuzlife. Because the law is not on your side. And I doubt women who are exercising their Constitutional rights are going to tell you about what\'s going on with their bodies or within their privacy of their relationships with their physicians and/or family members.   Nor do I blame them one bit.   And just to clarify your position for the board, on this "child" definition you keep insisting on. Do you mean to use that terminology for a fertilized egg, too?   As in the photograph I shared earlier?   :flutteringeyelashes:'
+p9786
+aS'I got an interesting tid bit for you:   http://www.2ampd.net/Articles/difiElitist.htm   First read the text. The anti-gun senator is noted for having the ONLY legal concealed gun in the city of San Francisco.   Also note as a person who carried a concealed gun and still keeps a .357 magnum for protection, that she should KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER, until your aming at your target.'
+p9787
+aS'http://www.dcagenda.com/2010/02/08/m...asure-in-poll/   Keep in mind that this is an opinion poll, so take it for what its worth, but it seems to indicate that the people of DC wanted to vote on this issue.'
+p9788
+aS'No, I\'m saying it\'s OK because abortion is legal in this country. I was just pointing out that it\'s also legal to execute a convicted killer, and it\'s fine and dandy to declare wars where many people will die. "Thall shalt not kill, unless there is a war".   Legally there is a difference. But let\'s just toss that out for a second. The end result is exactly the same. Eyes fogged over no longer care whether it was fun or self defense.   It\'s only time it\'s your call, is when it\'s suicide.'
+p9789
+aS"Well, the slavery analogy for gay rights is past it's applicability at this point--one was a property issue (also rooted in deep prejudice), the other is a morality issue. Many people oppose gay marriage out of morality and NOT prejudice. The same can't be said for slavery. There are many ways that the analogy doesn't work and that's just one of them. In fact, it could as easily be an analogy to reverse it and say that the ones who did the enslaving were analogous to gay rights lobbyists and the abolitionists were analogous to those who seek to protect marriage. After all, the plantation owners were the ones really fighting for ill-conceived rights--rights that they shouldn't have had."
+p9790
+aS'It is clearly not a strawman argument. I think he doesn\'t know what "straw man" means and I think he is meaning to say "red herring."   It isn\'t a red herring either; it\'s a perfectly logically related question. I would guess he doesn\'t see that as he neither understands evolution nor bacterial resistance and, thus, the relationship.'
+p9791
+aS'Yes. Only the ignorant think not.'
+p9792
+aS'again, please review the definition of an atheist   humor cannot be observed by apparatus that test the physical realm. it is an abstract and intangible quality. so is beauty, artistic ability and pleasure. yet these things exist and are as real to an atheist as it is to a theist. an atheist does not need a devine revelation to appreciate intangible qualities or account for their existence. they can be detected through mental processing, and communicated so that others can agree on the quality and identify it when it is present.   being an atheist does not preclude belief in the existence of intangible and abstract things. it just precludes the belief in god and a spiritual/supernatural realm'
+p9793
+aS'This is obviously not talking about abortion.'
+p9794
+aS'These items do not have killing as their primary use.'
+p9795
+aS"No. You've not understood what I said. I don't know how to make it perfectly clear to you...the reason the skin color vs. homosexuality analogy is not valid is that one is in 100% of the cases studied a result of uncontrollable genetic inheritance and the other is generally not."
+p9796
+aS'You can not create the general from the specific, only the specific from the general'
+p9797
+aS"I'll assume this is figurative since they do not literally melt."
+p9798
+aS'Well, if you don\'t want a reaction, I would prefer if you not use the word "god" since it is loaded with so many other meanings and conotations than those you say you mean.   The choice between our two stances is indeed one between choosing a moral stance based on reasoned analysis (imperfect as that may be) and choosing a moral stance based on blind faith (i.e. not supported by evidence) in a moral code dictated by a religious authority.   You say that my moral code is a code that puts faith only in myself. That is not true. I very openly acknowledge that if I never had input from the outside - moral codes which were presented to me with the reasons behind them - then my moral code as determined solely by myself would have been meager indeed. I have had a wide range of influences which have helped determined my moral code:   - The moral codes of my folks during my upbringing   - The moral code of the moderate form of Roman Catholicism I grew up with   - The moral codes generally accepted by the moderate Democratic part of society   - The moral stances of friends   - The moral philosophy of Kant and other philosophers I have read about   I am sure that I could even come up with more than that. From all of those, I have gleaned a morality that works best for me, where my moral code seems to be quite a common one. The moral rules which I accepted were typically the ones which gave the reasons behind them and whose base assumptions I agreed with. The moral rules which I rejected were typically the ones which gave no supporting reasons or whose base assumptions I disagreed with. I suspect that you assume that if a morality is not grounded in religious rules, then it becomes based on selfishness. That is not true. We are all inspired by heroes that sacrifice themselves for others - be they secular or religious (as Jesus himself can be viewed as a hero).   There is a lot of overlap in morality between secular morality and religious (mainly Christian) morality - against theft, murder, etc. However, I find too many of the religious rules very arbitrary (such as the anti-Gay propaganda, some religion\'s ban on contraceptives, the idea of the infalibility of the pope, etc.) that I certainly will not follow religious rules blindly. Furthermore, so much of religious morality was determined simply by religious men who were set in the local morality of their time and attached that morality to the religion. Even if Jesus was divine, it would be very hard today to know how to throw away all the junk morality that was added after his time and extract the pure origin.'
+p9799
+aS"As pointed out, with a different physics, chemistry and biology, the universe as we know it wouldn't exist. What is really damaging to the concept of creationism as truth is a list of what we should expect if a flood had occurred under the same laws of science that are in operation today. One problem with creationism (I know, you want to ignore the problems) is that they constantly fall back on miracle in order to do a reset of reality in order to circumvent reality when creationism bumps into scientifically impossible events.   I don't mean to rain on the parade, but with all that said, it has been done. There is a list of 28 items, originally compiled by Jim Moore, that we should find if the flood happened as per the Bible. Not even miracles can solve these. That list is followed by further problems that have been compiled by Ken Harding from numerous sources.   What Would We Expect to Find if the World Had Flooded   For more information you can refer to the Flood Geology FAQs at TO. Two items with information that specifically addresses the question of the OP are Problems with a Global Flood, and The Geologic Column and its Implications for the Flood ."
+p9800
+aS'Are there truly laws of logic?   Where are they encoded?'
+p9801
+aS"The quad 50 full automatic anti-aircraft gun is designed to oscillate on it's mount. This is so that the bullets will come out in a pattern. This pattern along with tracer rounds helps the shooter guide the blizzard of bullets at the aircraft. Even this only works at low altitudes. Modern planes typically fly at ~30K feet. That's more than 5 miles high! A perfect bullet, or one that is fired in a vaccum with an initial velocity of 2800 fps will only go ~25k feet before gravity alone will have reduced it's velocity to 0 fps. The odds of hitting something that is moving at ~900 fps at any distance with a bullet traveling at ~2800fps are slim to none. That is why anti-aircraft guns are full auto, not a semiauto or anything that a citizen has access to legally."
+p9802
+aS'you\'re looking at evolution in way too much of a magical and mystical way. Evolution doesn\'t "know" anything. It doesn\'t have any desires... and... i lack the eloquence to briefly state mechanical (and complete lack of desire) aspects of evolution. i suggest you do research as to how there are no conscious thinking elements in evolution.   Science will never be able to disprove any god because of some flaw science happens to point out. The best individuals can do is, when people try to reason that such perfect organs imply a designer, point out that the design isn\'t all that perfect after all.   If you want to try and debate flaws in design are evidence against a god... well go ahead... but then i\'ll just know if i\'m ever looking for an easy debate victory i\'ll just try to find you. At the very best all you are doing is showing that the idea that God created all things perfectly probably isn\'t true... and even then someone can just point out that apparent flaws we see are simply the ineffable will of god.'
+p9803
+aS'Actually, no, that is not what I said. I said:   What you quoted is what Answers in Genesis said. Please do not be dishonest and tell others that I said this as I did not.'
+p9804
+aS"Ingus, please see my comments at the end of my previous post.   The purpose of this thread is to introduce ourselves and have a Q&amp;A about the basis for each others views etc.   If you want to debate the specific differences we may have in our views, either open a new thread and invite me over, challenge me, whatever...   But I'm not going to debate it here.   I think this thread is a great idea.   People should introduce themselves, lay out their views however they see fit and let others do the same."
+p9805
+aS"And compare that to an equivalent sized human - if you compared the skill to a 10-13 year old boy, the erectus skeleton's cranial capacity would be significantly smaller. Doesn't contradict in the slightest other than the bizarre positions you decide other people should hold."
+p9806
+aS'Sure. The outcome of Heller vs DC and Florida Shall - Issue laws support that statement. According to Brady logic, the more helpless you are, the safer you are from criminals.'
+p9807
+aS"No, that's just the pork tacked onto the original bill."
+p9808
+aS'They do not hate the concept, they merely reject it as being useful or necessary to explain the material universe. I mean come on what utility would a physics which incorporated miracles be? Nothing would be predictable and all utility would be lost. If you want all of science to be arbitrary and unreliable then all ya gotta do is inject miracles into the field.   For example what value is f=ma {except when the diety wills otherwise}.   Or e=mc2 (god willing)'
+p9809
+aS'So let me get this straight - you admit that you are wrong, and you want me to provide documentation to prove this admission correct?   How about we both simply agree that you were wrong and move on.'
+p9810
+aS'So are you saying that if one person prays for another person who is sick, that if the praying person believes enough then some power of belief within him is great enough to heal another person who has no such beliefs, but that isn\'t a miracle that can be attributed to God, but is just something the person praying accomplished because they believed enough ?   So when I laid hands on my 9 month old daughter and prayed for her healing in Jesus name, when she then within 5 seconds opened her eyes and went from completely listless with a 103 degree temp to wide awake, happy and affectionate as she smiled at me with bright little eyes, are you saying that something within me transfered to her to bring about that instant result ? If that is true, then you must admit that something supernatural still happened, it\'s just that the power to heal transfered from me instead of from God whom I asked to heal her in Jesus name.   Now mind you, I totally reject that, as I know it was God healing my daughter because I know rationally speaking, that I have no supernatural powers within me. And I truly understand how difficult it is for someone who has never personally experienced a miracle to not be skeptical about miracles or the supernatural, and maybe if I had experienced only one in my life then I too might question if it really happened.   But I have had numerous Angelic interventions that cannot be denied. And the personal spirit filled contacts with my heavenly Father on a daily basis is more than one such as I am can even fully appreciate or comprehend. Because you see, I am a sinner and completely unworthy to be in Gods presence at all, yet He has lived within me and fellowshipped with me each and every day of my life since I accepted Jesus as my Savior in August of 1975. And if you want to believe me, 2 of the Angelic interventions I experienced happened before I was even saved in August of 75. So as it is written, before the foundation of the World, God Knew me. And while I was yet in the womb, He knew me. And while I was in the womb, He knew the number of hairs on my head. So also, even before I accepted Jesus and was born again, my Father in Heaven knew me, loved me and protected me until the day of my salvation.   This is why I\'m so adamant and stubborn in my belief and can not be moved by any unbelief. If I denied Jesus and Gods truth with all of the personal and first hand supernatural experiences I have had, I would be less worthy than the greatest evil doer and unbeliever in the world to receive Gods Grace and Love as I have. I have prophesied, spoken in the language of the Angels, been supernaturally saved from drowning, been saved from a violent attack which may have led to my murder as I had 5000 in cash on me at the time. But my Guardian Angel intervened and ran the muggers off and they never found the money. That was just one of the interventions and all I did when i saw the trouble coming was say within my mind, "Lord Jesus, help me". Nothing I did stopped the attack, nor could it have as these people had murder in their eyes. I had never seen such cold blooded hatred in any persons eyes before as was in this one guy. And yet within seconds I saw that rage in his eyes turn to abject terror as he looked past me, then he said to me, the next time I\'ll kill you and they ran away like total cowards. When I turned around to see who had scared them so much and looked exactly where they looked when they looked over my shoulder, you know what i saw ? Absolutely nothing. There was nobody there at all, no human anyway.'
+p9811
+aS'The founding fathers were afraid to trust the common people with the right to vote. They didn\'t want mob rule and chaos. "Most of the Founders believed that property ownership was essential to good citizenship and therefore that only property owners should be able to vote. \'Property\', in those days, also included slaves, of course, and half of the Founders were slave owners....The maintenance of power in the hands of the elite was further strengthened by who could vote. In 1787, there were about four million people living in the 13 original states. But only about four percent of them, it is estimated, could vote. Excluded were the one million slaves, the two million women, anyone under the age of 21, and all non-property owners."   http://www.alternativesmagazine.com/22/lonsdale.html'
+p9812
+aS'You either did not read my post thoroughly, or are intentional misrepresenting me. Post 250 (which I had actually read before starting this thread) is nothing but DamEtel rambling about homologies between vertebrae embryos. That has absolutely nothing to do with the unexplained homologies that the Denton talks about. Evolution simply cannot, reasonably speaking, account for the homology between your arm and leg, among other examples.'
+p9813
+aS"To a small extent, this happens already. Oftentimes (21.3%, U.S.), a woman decides to have and abortion because she cannot afford a baby (from here, source). This is in effect removing members of society who are non-productive (babies produce virtually nothing useful until they mature by about 10 years). And poor families are less productive, since they are often on welfare.   Granted, this is a rather harsh perspective, but the effect is the same: In the U.S., there are about (21.3% X 1.31 million) 280,000 less people every year who would have likely grown up in a poor home (assuming the child wouldn't have been adopted). Forced contraception/abortion is seen as an effective way of solving poverty in some parts of the world..."
+p9814
+aS'What a condescending attitude you have. In case you haven\'t noticed, you are a very small part of the human race that you smuggly hold in contempt. (Thankfully small!) Your mission should be to improve it, not to stand back and claim you are better than everybody else, as you seem to do.   Killing innocent people of any age is wrong. Children are no exception, they are just the epitomy of innocence.   The "pretty sick" applies to your own deluded thoughts.   Rest assured, I will not mourn your death or the deaths of any of those you may have taught your insane values. You are  !'
+p9815
+aS'http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/18/op...18kristof.html'
+p9816
+aS"Well, sort of. It isn't necessary, but if you're predicting intelligence from what someone does rather than direct measurements of physical properties, knowing their motivation level might allow you to make more accurate predictions.   Nevertheless even without knowing the subjects' motivations at all, today's generic intelligence tests still have excellent predictive power for success in both school and employment, and are perhaps better predictors for future success than any other method we have (including interviews, personality inventories, aptitude in a particular field)"
+p9817
+aS'Just a newly-evolved structure. It happens.'
+p9818
+aS"ABORTION IS NOT BAD.   That's all that needs to be said."
+p9819
+aS'An attempt by you to dodge the main point.'
+p9820
+aS'You really have flipped over the edge into the desparate area of insanity.   Please Penfold present some STATISTICS to back up your wild accusations. IF you cannot present anything other than the disgraceful 43..... Then shut up   Guns in the hands of law abiding citizens save lives, the statistics back this up from EVERY country EVER to introduce gun control.'
+p9821
+aS'So the founding fathers and their work is basicy viewed as an authority based on their competence?'
+p9822
+aS'Intellignet design seems to have a large following. The fact that somebody believes in intellient design does not necessarily mean that they disagree with evolution. A lot of folks (I would say the majority) view it as evolution used as a vehicle for intellient design (basically "god planned it and made it all happen").   The movement to teach YEC is non existant. Creationism does not necessarily=YEC. The YEC crowd is their own little clique of scientific illiterates. I have been on the local board of education for 2 years now and have never heard the phrase "Young Earth Creationists" in any official capacity, nor has anybody ever suggested that it be taught. I had no idea what a "young earth creationist" was until I read it on this board, 6 months ago. It is simply not an issue, and I am right in the middle of Kansas.'
+p9823
+aS"Yea I agree with you on how there was no exact se t of laws at the beginning of creation. The reason I say that they most likely didn't marry their sisters is mostly cause God gets mad at Cain and places a mark on his head so everyone he runs across will not kill him unless they want to die a death 10 times worse than his. Kinda just says that there are other people out there."
+p9824
+aS'Yea the legalizatioin of drugs would cause an epedimic of problems. Crime, suicide, mental health problems, and physical health problems.'
+p9825
+aS"How curious that not everyone can admit that this kind of treatment is wrong. How interesting that another issue comes up instead of addressing the blatant, in-your-face kind of mistreatment of an individual making a private, personal decision.   Like many decisions in life, this is one that is difficult to come to. It doesn't mean it's a wrong one. It's hard because your options are so very serious."
+p9826
+aS'That is right funny goober Paul Helmke is sweating it as all the post Heller court cases keep chipping away the feet the brady bunch is built on.   Gun-ban lobby losing its shot | The Daily Caller - Breaking News, Opinion, Research, and Entertainment   Gun prohibitionists are disingenuous, hypocritical   "Gun-Free" Chicago experiences a 9/11 once every four years   The Daily O\'Collegian - Shooting down gun control laws   http://www.news-sentinel.com/apps/pb...6/NEWS/3260308   Another Coburn amendment killed by Senate | .Politics   Let me know when you had enough I will post all the States that have a State Firearm freedom act as well as more of the same'
+p9827
+aS"Wrong and no one has ever called bone marrow an inner sanctum and I don't know what a baby's tabernacle might be."
+p9828
+aS"You weren't referring to your home in your little story of helplessness."
+p9829
+aS"Yes, I've noticed that. I do think part of the problem is that he hasn't bothered to get educated in the subject. From the arguments I've seen from him over the time he's been here he seems to rely on YEC websites for information, and when he gets to something he doesn't know it seems like he cuts-and-pastes (often without fuly reading) from google (leading to the Civil War Dinosaur fiasco and the Nazca stones fiasco) that seems to support his views"
+p9830
+aS"Oh sinj.don't let it get you down,it don't mean nothing   (sorry couldn't help it)"
+p9831
+aS'It is in the first place unclear to whom the "further harm" is done. But even granting that the fetus dies, it is not clear how the situation is analogous to abortion, because the intentions of not only the man but even more importantly of the pregnant woman are completely different.'
+p9832
+aS'You\'re thinking is right on, sinjin.   Although it\'s kinda hush-hush, it has been determined (especially in the more charismatic churches) that when one "goes further" in religion the other feels alienated and problems/troubles that probably would have never risen in their relationship oozes out. A new circle of friends emerge which make the one that is &#8220;left behind&#8221; feel closed out and closed off. Arguments then seem to erupt daily and most of it over who is doing the &#8220;right thing&#8221; according to that religion, followed all too often by divorce.'
+p9833
+aS"Do you mean someone who was wrong? I asked you before to give an example of where Newton found empirical evidence of God. You failed to do so. I suspect that you can't."
+p9834
+aS'And so have animals. Plants have been wiped out in the great extinctions too.   [quote]Carbon dioxide producing animals could even feed themselves with their own breathe![/quot]   Huh? You produce carbon dioxide. How do you propose to feed yourself with that?'
+p9835
+aS'What in the Hell does evolution have to do with people doing bad things? I am a believer in creation by God and have never heard such drivel. BOY-HOWDY!!!'
+p9836
+aS'Right. The frenquecy of the alles have changed over time.'
+p9837
+aS'and thus a reason to support balanced reporting.   true, there are indisputable facts. say 3000 died.   but the interpretation of the facts are subjected to bias. the 3000 deserved to die as collaborators vs the 3000 were innocent and did not deserve to die.'
+p9838
+aS'I know that not all people who are pro-life are woman-hating. I, too want to see abortion reduced to the bare minimum. I just disagree with most pro-lifers on how to accomplish that.   My issue was with ROCC\'s attitude in the post I was responding to. To summarize he/she said that your shouldn\'t get pregnant and if you do - you just get to deal with it. There is absolutely no regard for an individual\'s situation, the attack is entirely focused on women and it offers NOTHING that will help reduce abortion.   ROCC\'s statement was quite woman-hating, but no, it is not indicative of the pro-life side\'s feelings about women. The only times I am compelled to really think pro-lifers are anti-woman is when they have the "pregnancy is a woman\'s due punishment for promiscuity" attitude or demand that a woman die/put her health jeapardy or demand rape victims go through with pregnancies. If you can\'t see the woman in even those most extreme situations, then you clearly have zero regard for women.   I believe that abortion stands it best chance at being reduced by addressing the things that lead to unplanned pregnancy and the reasons women choose to abort. To demonize women and simply take away choice without addressing these things will not reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies, or gauarantee responsible choices. It will lead desperate women to desperate action, though (i.e., coat hangers).'
+p9839
+aS"A perfect example of why Christian fundamentalismm and evolution can't co-exist. If God is wrong, then the Bible is wrong. Evolution contradicts the Bible, plain and simple."
+p9840
+aS'so do we trash the whole thing, or what?'
+p9841
+aS"Everything basically.   You're held captive by hostile natives that have set up barricades and checkpoints around the property you live on. They decide when you get to come in and go out, and the police have decided to abandon you rather than come to your aid. And Canada has laws that make defense with a firearm either impractical or out right illegal depending on just where you life."
+p9842
+aS'Our emphasis on Police and crime fighting reduced crime. Not gun control!   Our murder rate is largely an Inner City drug and drug gang related problem. Fix that and then you will finally be doing something!'
+p9843
+aS'Really! Then I assume that you have read Darwin - at least On the Origin of Species. Otherwise you are babbling. Please cite specific passages from Darwin\'s books where he made "morals and ethics" a joke. Please also do the same for the works of Dawkins. Your assertion presumes that you have read the works of both men.'
+p9844
+aS'Your wrong. Airplanes and courthouses are gun free zones but these places never have massacres.'
+p9845
+aS'The main incentive for a male child is that in China you can only have one child without severe penalties and a female child means the family name is lost.'
+p9846
+aS'We know that now, but not because the sun rises every day, because we have identified other evidence that proves heliocentrism.   The hypothesis "the sun orbits the earth" predicts it will rise and set every day, the hypothesis "The earth is rotating" predicts the same.'
+p9847
+aS"Just some interesting information I learned when we went caving a couple years ago (a real cave, not one of the commercialized ones). Bats actually have better eyesite than humans, but even they can't see in pitch black. No eye can."
+p9848
+aS"Thanks. But it seems that you don't understand. Perhaps the people of Austin are more intelligent than they are down here in Houston. Maybe it's just that you are surrounded by educated people who show a tendency away from creationism. But you see, I run into people all the time (and meet them on this board too) who think that speciation has never been observed. Why do they think that? Because their holy book tells them so. The herring gull/lesser black-backed gull is an example of a single, vast, globe encircling population that has become separate species at the extremes of it's range - and those extremes overlap. Before I came to Texas the idea that the Book of Genesis was literally true never occurred to me. So it was kind of a neat moment to realize that the big birds around the restaurant dumpster were herring gulls, a living example of a population in the process of forming separate species."
+p9849
+aS"**   Nor do I think you at all stupid. I do not debate stupid people, there is no challenge in it. Nor do I debate arrant foolishness and irrational notions such as biblical literalism. It's no more challenging than shooting fish in a barrel, and no more satisfying than destroying a child's faith in the tooth fairy.   But I do take offence at you characterizing my ability to reason logically and to think with some originality as being nothing more than 'manipulation' and sophistry."
+p9850
+aS'Please define complexity. Please define information. Both definitions should be relevant to biology.'
+p9851
+aS'The counter arguments put forth by its critics do not defeat the Violinist arguments, at the very least. Whether one accepts the argument anyway is another story :P'
+p9852
+aS'Hmm . . . funny, I don\'t remember ever hearing a pro-lifer say that pregnancy was a wonderful snuggly thing or the best thing in the world. What I do see is pro-lifers like myself wondering why pregnancy is protrayed (in the form of a generalization) as so horrible by people such as yourself who just described it as "unbelievably" hard to go through, or a "life threatening condition" like malignant cancer. You didn\'t qualify it by saying "some" pregnancies are life threatening or unbearable. Maybe yours was, but how can you say that for every woman in the world? I know for a fact that my wife\'s pregnancy was not "unbelievably hard to go through"--she\'s told me otherwise and I believe her. Sorry, but I believe my wife over you.   What you did was use unfounded generalizations, which is exactly the sort of thing this thread is about.'
+p9853
+aS'It has a financial impact on ALL taxpayers. To say that it has no impact on anyone else is disengenuous.'
+p9854
+aS'Sure, here ya go...   Radiocarbon Dating'
+p9855
+aS'yes, on the grounds of "mostly likely" we can make reasonable assumptions. but we must still treat them as such.   part of the catch of God\'s existence is that no evidence of his existence cn ever be found. if Jesus actually physically performed observable miracles, even 2000 years ago, then it would surely proven that the supernatural can and does (or did) exist in reality. however, even jesus\'s ministry contradicts the faith theory. how can God expect faith from those who haven\'t observed on the grounds of those who have? if people can observe the manifested power of God in reality, then they have physical evidence that God exists. but this conflicts with the nature of God from a biblical standpoint. in other words, the bible cannot claim that physical evidence for the existence of God can exist, and then that it cannot exist, without contradicting itself. what we end up with is the predicament that ANY physical evidence that could possibly support God\'s existence is evidence against God\'s existence (at least from a biblical standpoint)'
+p9856
+aS'Uh...yeah? Is there some other way than evolution this can happen? Evolution encompasses speciation which results from evolution taking different paths when populations are separated by some factor in their environment or geographically.   Are you saying you believe that the species have all somehow resulted from a common genome yet at the same time rejecting evolution as an explanation?'
+p9857
+aS"I don't see how one can be a agnostic and be a Deist either. Deism requires a origin, some form of a clockmaker. To not be sure that such a being exists is to fail one of the most basic ideas of Deism."
+p9858
+aS"Clearly this is true. There are a multitude of denominations from every religion. This is as specially true with Christianity because the texts do not explain how all the ceremonies are done. Baptism was performed in areas where full immersion could not have occurred but the best explanations of baptism paint a picture of a full immersion. The Church of Christ believes one must baptize in the name of Jesus, the Father, Son and Holy Ghost thing was while Jesus lived. Because the practice of speaking in tongues was used by the first church, some believe the art must stay in the church.   Most of the complications to Christianity is simply because the followers really believed Jesus would return. No one wrote a book on the Religion.   The Religion changed a great deal through time. King James was no saint and he had clear reasons he would not allow some letters into an authorized version he would sign on to.   One letter spoke of the sin of Slavery. This was clearly at odds with King James. Other items would have direct negative effects on the kingdom and I'll let others find the reasoning behind the withdraws."
+p9859
+aS"believing that god doesnt exist or acknowledging the fact that evidence to support the existence of god has never been found does not equate to science being anti-religious or that science hates religion. in fact, the one thing that both science and religion have in common is acknowledging that belief in god is not based on observable evidence, but rather an individual choice to apply faith in something which cannot be seen or proven. on the one hand, religion continually reaches that in order to believe in god, you must have faith that god is real despite a marked lack of evidence for god's existence. science concludes the same thing: that people who believe in the existence of god do so solely by faith, despite the lack of observable evidence to back this belief   the bottom line is that science does not make religion obsolete by reiterating the fact that there is no evidence for god. religious people also already knows this, and believe in god regardless"
+p9860
+aS'And the mall plainly had "no guns allowed" signs displayed at all the entrances, meaning the shooter broke the law when he brought his gun in and started shooting.   Now, find me a school massacre that took place where concealed carry is actually legal on campus.'
+p9861
+aS"And...   You're still left with the simple fact that the Declaration of Independance, the premise of your hierarchy of rhetoric, is not legally relevant to the government of the U.S.   The constitution was written after the declaration. Had they wanted to include wording from the declaration, they could have, yet they didn't, did they?   Your house of cards is built on a rhetorical slight of hand, trying to persuade by implying somehow that abortion being legal, which it is, in the U.S., right now, should not be allowed.   TIP: Trying forming a reasoned argument without such a weak premise, else, your entire argument is just as flawed, which it is.   Abortion is legal, for the right reasons.   A conscious, human, U.S. citizen, has rights.   Cells, without consciousnes, that are not citizens, do not have rights, are not individuals, and are not humans.   You can jump up and down, and post irrelevant things such as the Dec. of Independance, but it doesn't boost your debate credibility.   -Mach"
+p9862
+aS"No I don't . I want children (at least my children and family) to be placed in a school where they do not have to worry about one of their classmates pulling out a tech 9 and going on a rampage in the library. I don't think that is too much to ask. I think eliminating the risk of this makes a school a much more effective place to learn. How many people do you think actually learned anything at Columbine the day they came back to school, or perhaps were they a little distracted. I'm all for the government giving you and like-minded extremists your own school (hell, even your own state...why not) and letting you all carry guns into schools and every other place you want to. As long as when a gunfight breaks out at your school in Rottencrotch Nebraska, I don't have to see all the parents on TV crying and bawling about how could this tragedy happen here, and saying that something should have been done, this never should have happened. I think there is a time and place for guns, but I don't think that guns belong in schools."
+p9863
+aS"And that's all irrelevent, because pages 240-243 concern what happens in the world today, not what happened concerning creation. His feelings about God's interactions with the world today would be different if he had a basic knowledge of the Bible."
+p9864
+aS'And they have been found in volume buried together in the same strata in Ohio also. Vertebrate Fossils - Ohio History Central - A product of the Ohio Historical Society'
+p9865
+aS'Why would that even be expected? When you consider that it is important to maintain some sort of consistency in study populations, obvious mutants are excluded from the breeding stock. And yet, there are frequent observed mutations. In fact, my elder son once observed two mutations in a single fly in one of his populations. One fly had no wings and white eyes.'
+p9866
+aS"Actually, after the fact calculations on either side are just noise. Humans do exist and I suspect that all statements of probabilities are incorrect. Further, I don't think that coin flips are relevant and not even a very good analogy."
+p9867
+aS'Different sort of penetration, so no.'
+p9868
+aS'This is a statement written by someone who obviously has not read scripture. One of the most astonising "proofs" if you will, that the Bible is of supernatural origin, is predictive prophecy. Science cannot, as you claim, "explain" everything, and it has no natural explanation for the   predictions made in scripture. How can science explain through statistical probablity the over 600 prophecies in Biblical writings that have come to pass? Also, how can it explain how supposedly uneducated people (uneducated in the ways of modern science) wrote about astronomy as if they knew about the universe as we do today. How could they have described the hydrological cycle as we have only come to know it recently?   Ecclesiastes 1:6   The wind goes toward the south,   And turns around to the north;   The wind whirls about continually,   And comes again on its circuit.   How did they know that the earth "hangs on nothing" when the accepted norm of the day did not even accept that possibility?   Job 26:7   He stretches out the north over empty space;   He hangs the earth on nothing.   How did they know that the "vapors" of the earth rise to create moisture, that is seeded by lightning with nitrogen and then falls as rain to fertilze the soil?   Jeremiah 10:13   When He utters His voice,   There is a multitude of waters in the heavens:   ?And He causes the vapors to ascend from the ends of the earth.   He makes lightning for the rain,   He brings the wind out of His treasuries.?   Hydrothermal vents[4] are described in two books of the Bible written before 1400BC?more than 3,000 years before their discovery by science.   Genesis 7:11   In the six hundredth year of Noah?s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.   Even though the Bible is not a scientific text book and doesn\'t purport to be, nowhere is it scientifically inaccurate. In addition, many of the scientific ideas you are so impressed with are nothing new to the Bible. It was speaking of these things long before modern science spoke of them.   The story goes "They (scientists) are slowly working their way to the mountain\'s peak painstakingly measuring and analyzing every step that they take. After many years of research, they finally arrive at the top of the mountain, scale over its leading edge, only to find a group of theologians sitting there with the answers all along."'
+p9869
+aS'Well try Arkansas (75/25), Georgia (76/24), Kentucky (75/25), Michigan (59/41), Mississippi (86/14), Montana (67/33), North Dakota (73/27), Ohio (62/38), Oklahoma (76/24), Oregon (57/43), and Utah (66/34).   All of these margins were well above the percentage of votes cast for Bush and Kerry, respectively. Ohio, for instance, went to Bush by 2%, but the ban was passed by 24%. Bush lost Oregon by 4%, but the ban passed by 14%. Bush lost Michigan by 3%, but the ban passed by 18%. The margin of victory for each of these states exceeds George Bush\'s margin of victory in that state. Those extra votes had to come from somewhere, and it seems like many people other than the "religious right" feel the same way.'
+p9870
+aS'putting words in my mouth again? i did not say christian, i said "God". Christian, Jewish, and Muslim all believe in the same "God".   - XXXXX.   i\'ll let Crim and Lurch respond to the others; lets not let me have all the fun.'
+p9871
+aS"Just a guess on my part. But it's probably one of the only factors that separates our advanced industrialized nation -- as the only one still having the death penalty -- from savage places like Afghanistan, etc.   Having a doctor allows the self-deceptive veneer that a most uncivilized, inhumane act, about to take place, is somehow civilized or humane. And not the bloodthirsty, venomous, purely vengeful thing that it is.   He sounds like a very principled individual to me. With this, yet one more indication that the death penalty system in our country is unsustainable. Not only for moral reasons, but because it is not shown to serve as an effective deterrent, and because the overwhelmed system is not supportable, under our American Constitution, often punishing everyone involved, even the families of victims. (i.e. These cases go on for years and years and years and years. There's no closure for people.)"
+p9872
+aS'Oh I hated being pregnant. However I am not really arguing whether pregnancy in and of itself is punishment, I suspect that is an opinion matter - there are some crazy women who actually liked pregnancy. Julie - however clearly feels that it is acceptable to use a pregnancy and parenting in a punitive matter against women she feels are irresponsible.'
+p9873
+aS'Not this time. That was the previous attempt by the good people of Kansas.'
+p9874
+aS"Can't your religion survive a little mockery?   On the other hand I can understand why your worried your religion being so ridiculous and all."
+p9875
+aS'Please explain this statement.'
+p9876
+aS'A more precise term would be "broaden," since nothing about the definition pertaining to the people currently covered by it would be affected, "diluted" or altered in any way anyone has yet demonstrated. Nothing about the definition that pertains to people who already are, or can be married changes one iota. Their rights, benefits, and protections remain exactly the same. The only "change" would be to other people, people who have no connection to, nor impact on, the marriages of anyone else: the gays who\'ll marry if the legal definition is broadened to encompass them. And the only "change" in that regard will be the fact that they are encompassed by it, nothing more. No substantive aspect of the definition as it currently stands changes in the slightest.   The change is not in the definition itself. It\'s in who it applies to.'
+p9877
+aS"Chuz, the purpose of this summary is not to summarise your arguments as a whole - it is to summarise what your argument is up to this point.   Why not post just a summary of your position so far, as you see it - I can do the same, then you can continue with your argument?   There's no point in writing an argument, summarising it and then leaving the thread before I've had a chance to respond to even your argument (never mind your summary). If you are going to simply ignore any criticisms of your reasoning, then I struggle to see the point of you repeatedly requesting a one-on-one debate in the first place - you essentially regress your argument to the 'because I said so' that you are (presumably) hoping to avoid, it's just that there's slightly more detail."
+p9878
+aS"Yes, the horror of voluntarily taking orders from someone in exchange for monetary rewards!!   If you hate your job that much, quit. You aren't being oppressed because someone offered you the option to do something. If you don't like it, don't do it. If you hate trade, you can go wander through the wilderness and eat berries and roots."
+p9879
+aS'Well, here\'s another quote from Allan Feduucia:   "Feathers are unique to birds, and no known structure intermediate between scales and feathers has been identified." (J. Alan Feduccia, The Age of Birds, Harvard University Press, 1980, pg. 52)   Sounds contradictory to me!'
+p9880
+aS"It's not tough, especially for close stars.   http://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/CosmosNotes/distance.htm   You use triangulation based on the orbit of the earth."
+p9881
+aS'Manslaughter involves a direct action that causes an unintentional death. Miscarriage is involuntary; besides the person suffering a miscarriage might well want to keep the baby. To equate miscarriage with manslaughter is preposterous.'
+p9882
+aS'No but the fact that infants have brain activity makes them a world of difference between a zygote that has no brain activity. They can think and feel and exhibit all the characteristics of other human beings. A zygote exhibits none of those characteristics.'
+p9883
+aS"So sorry, Anastasia...that's a horrible thing to face. And now, using that excuse? What!   If justice was swift for the guilty then he would not have escaped only to do it again. Some criminals never change, and via your testimony, only live to do it again.   There are some who need to be put to death.   Your situation made me shudder, Anastasia. But, I am glad you didn't let it (revenge) effect you to the point of taking his life yourself.   If it would have been my father, those many years ago, I cannot say that I would have waited, nor would have accepted that lame excuse of retardation. I could very well be in prison myself."
+p9884
+aS"Well I think that the geology of the planet would influence everything. From religions to morals and scientific progression. Because long ago on our planet Europe not only thought the world was flat and they could fall over at the edge into an abyss but Europe generally didn't have knowledge of the Asian cultures until the silk road was active. If the asian and european cultures were not so greatly distanced from each other history would have been greatly changed to the extent that compared to our world would be pretty loopy"
+p9885
+aS"Oh sorry, I didn't understand what you were asking.   Ok, what I think happened {Like Tasyfish hinted at} was that Moses recorded what god told him or Genesis 1 because it is in more detail, and Genesis 2 is what was passed down through Noah, in Oral history, so it would differ slightly, but that's becaue of man's error, not God's."
+p9886
+aS"Fossils are evidence, not theory. They can be used in the construction of any theory, including creationism. Whether this is 'just' or not, is another issue. I point this out as many seem confused about evidence, and think that it just points to something without interpretation"
+p9887
+aS'What Is a Human Person and Who Counts as a Human Person?: A Crucial Question for Bioethics by Prof. William E. May   There is also an extremely academic school of thought which views the human person in terms of the ego in all its derivations. I cannot hope to summarize what this is all about, please refer to:   Philosophical Critiques: The Human Person - 3   One could also consider the social development of an infant, inasmuch as humans are, in most cases, very social animals.   According to primatologist Sarah Blaffer Hrdy, the human species is specifically developed to be part of a social system and a newborn infant comes ready made to push all the buttons of the system:'
+p9888
+aS"You only say that it won't make a change because you support the effects it will have."
+p9889
+aS"Because I am one who likes see things from different angles. What better way to fight your enemies then to understand their viewpoint.   Before I am attacked on the the last statement, just because I understand a viewpoint does not meant that I accept it as true or that I don't reject it."
+p9890
+aS'http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CD/CD011.html   Radiocarbon dating has been repeatedly tested, demonstrating its accuracy. It is calibrated by tree-ring data, which gives a nearly exact calendar for more than 11,000 years back. It has also been tested on items for which the age is known through historical records, such as parts of the Dead Sea scrolls and some wood from an Egyptian tomb (MNSU n.d.; Watson 2001). Multiple samples from a single object have been dated independently, yielding consistent results. Radiocarbon dating is also concordant with other dating techniques (e.g., Bard et al. 1990).'
+p9891
+aS"This claim might be true, but do you have any citations about Carl Burgh's fraudulent claims? (ps I note you don't tell everyone else to go look up a book! It's nice to feel special)   I know of this site   http://home.austarnet.com.au/stear/carl_baugh_page.htm   which makes the claim, but I'd be interested to learn more about this alleged fraud"
+p9892
+aS'And how does this compare to your ideas on artificial selection?'
+p9893
+aS'But people start threads here all the time against Christianity regardless of whether someone claims something here about it or not. It\'s prejudice, pure and simple, and you\'re no exception. Now, one would think, being the supposedly non-Christian enlightened person you are, you would simply say "oh, I didn\'t realize that my posts came across as anti-Christian sometimes, and that it indicates a prejudice on my part, and will try to not have prejudices in my thinking." I mean, one would think those of you are do this sort of thing would be happy that someone had pointed out the obvious prejudice going on, as it would be a case to help you move away from prejudicial thinking.'
+p9894
+aS"Well, in the case above, it was step-by-step. First, an existing enzyme was modified to a new use, and over time, became refined to work better and better. This is the way evolution works. Nothing is de novo; it's always a modfication of something else. Second, a mutation produced a regulator that only allowed the enzyme to be produced if the substrate was available. Again, this was refined by natural selection over time. In the end, the newly-evolved system was irreducibly complex, because all three parts have to be present for the system to work.   And do show us your numbers proving that such processes can't produce new information. If you don't know how, I'd be pleased to show you how a mutation changes the information in a population."
+p9895
+aS'And rightfully so.'
+p9896
+aS'Actually, for his hypothesis to explain the difference, he would have to say that the DNA changed. Even so, he assumes more.'
+p9897
+aS'Proof that evolution is "right" is not necessary to prove that Genesis is not science. Genesis is an inspired poem, and contains truth in its message, but it is pretty obviously a work of poetry, like a song. Look at the repetition, and all the metaphors! Poetry does not imply fiction. THere are many historically valid poems. Plus, when read figuratively, Genesis poses no conflict at all with science.   Evolution is not the only science that demonstrates Genesis can not be read literally. What about the speed of light from the stars, geology, genetics, comparative embryology, etc. The only stumbling block between science and faith is a strictly literal interpretation. For most of us Faith and science work together!   see: songofgenesis.org for more detailed information.'
+p9898
+aS"We already accept that it is. You don't have to convince us.   However, consider what this does to your argument that natural selection is random."
+p9899
+aS"So, because they don't interpret the bible as you do, they believe that there are no deities? That is what you said..."
+p9900
+aS"You stand up for women..   I stand up for the child who has no choice   Who's being descrimatory here?"
+p9901
+aS'Evidence or proof for that delusion?'
+p9902
+aS'Should free speech require registration?'
+p9903
+aS"I'm not sure what the source of the bias would be. Do you mean that it is somehow prejudicial to link ID with creationism, because, somehow ID is scientific while creationism isn't? But that's just not true. In the Dover case the court concluded that ID isn't science any more than creationism is. In fact, it was clearly demonstrated that the motivation for ID is an effort to disguise the fact that it is nothing more than creationism without the mention of god. Basically, if you scratch an IDer, you get a creationist."
+p9904
+aS'That should be, "duh".   I knew what you meant. A bit of humor is ok.   But I guess you don\'t have anything to say about the implications of this study.'
+p9905
+aS'You know, I would be fine with that as long as it were truly a middle ground. If that term were used equally among straights as well as gays.   But it\'s just a term. The same as with the term "marriage."   It\'s just a term. Just a word.   Personally I feel the government needs to get out of the business of marriage altogether.   Let the legal term be agreed upon unilaterally.'
+p9906
+aS'Well, it depends on your definition of retarded I guess. The standards to get a drivers license are really not that high. Think of how dumb the average person is, and realize that 50% of people are dumber than that. Kinda makes you cringe.   And you wonder what has prevented me from being in an accident? Well, perhaps the fact that I am a concientious, defensive, and skilled driver who excercises caution while on the road. Maybe next time someone pulls out in front of me, I should just throw my hands in the air and scream "take the wheel jesus!" I am sure some magical being will fly down from heaven and save me from crashing. Yeah...sure.'
+p9907
+aS'Then you freely admit that you lied when you said this, and I quote: People like Arch are setting it as opposed to science and in that position it will be doomed to fail.   AND   Arch is doing nothing but distorting the very thing he holds so dear, I mean, how is accurately quoting passages from the bible distorting it in any way? You do nothing but post drivel which makes no factual statements at all. And you call that debating?'
+p9908
+aS"Don't expect your misrepresentations of the findings of those studies to sink in. I'm not that easily fooled."
+p9909
+aS"But the military is pretty much all a volunteer thing. It's not a hiring process--employer/employee thing. That arrangement lends itself more to the soldier not volunteering for service in the first place."
+p9910
+aS'What I find hard to believe is that politicians will place their decision above the right to life of a human person only for political expediency.'
+p9911
+aS'Again, we never said that a human fetus was a different species.'
+p9912
+aS'Just so you know, the majority of Japanese cars sold in the US are also assembled in the US and thus provide Americans with thousands of jobs at these plants.'
+p9913
+aS"Rahm Emanuel for one. He seems to sum up the message very well.   And then there's Carolyn McCarthy who actually introduced the bill that, if passed into law, would cancel your Second Amendment rights just because your name is on the no fly list.   Just two names, perhaps, but they're the names of people in a very powerful and dangerous position, capable of making very bad things happen."
+p9914
+aS'Oh, I LOVE semantics games'
+p9915
+aS'Believe me, marc, we certainly can. The fact that it damns your argument is no skin off our backs. In fact, it damns your argument so much that the producers know it. See below.'
+p9916
+aS'Actually your posts are providing increasing evidence for just how simple folks can get.'
+p9917
+aS"Well, the first part is true but I'm not sure I understand what you are saying in the second part. Science does not claim that intelligent design is false because science lacks the tools to examine the concept. ID is just another unsupported assertion outside the domain of science (and logic for that matter). ID has reached the stage of unsupported assertion without evidence. Science has better explanations."
+p9918
+aS'Yes. I believe it\'s a matter of personal individual freedom.   If purchased legally, and not used to commit a crime, what harm comes from handgun ownership? I don\'t own one, but I own many other guns. If they can ban handguns, what\'s to stop them from banning shotguns, or even BB guns?   I don\'t believe in a nanny state, taking away my toys "for my own good".   Waxy'
+p9919
+aS"Prove it. Got any credible scientific or sociological studies? NOPE, ya don't. Didn't think so."
+p9920
+aS"But is the Red Cross Christian? Obviously most contributors are Christian. That's obvious as most Americans are Christian."
+p9921
+aS"And these are psalms, which are just popular prayers rather than the word of God arn't they?   Rather than go with the slightly bizarre 'well you're not King David are you...' type response, I could see it being fairly reasonable that God 'knows' people who are born. He might 'know of' the various individuals who are misscarried, die at birth or are aborted but what exactly does he know in relation to them?   Do our souls have their own personalities completely seperate from our mortal ones that are shaped as much by our souls as genes and experience - or does God 'know' them through the billions of other possible universes, i.e he knows them from somewhere/when they didn't die. But if that counts then that means our souls are spread out over an infinite number of copies of us. If so then surely the threat of Hell is irrelevant, either we are doomed because clearly some version of reality has us being evil (I've seen enough TV shows to know that this is pratically 100% certain.) or the soul is something seperate from us and our actions?"
+p9922
+aS"Just because you don't have a handle on what civil rights are doesn't make the phrase arbitrary. It's a legal term, not a catch phrase. I'm not a lawyer, I couldn't track down the exact definition they use in Massachusetts, but rest assured they have one."
+p9923
+aS'And yet the atheist belief system allows for everyone to have their own seperate set of morals. According to the Atheist system, what Hitleror Stalin did was perfectly moral because those atheists believed that what they were doing was moral. Disgusting if you ask me.'
+p9924
+aS"But didn't they tell you? They outsourced your job to me!"
+p9925
+aS'I think the only valid reason for owning a gun is because you want to. Every person (with some exceptions) has the right to keep and bear arms, why you do it is your own business. Giving specific reasons for gun ownership is the top of a slippery slope towards banning certain firearms.   While I have specific reasons for owning specific guns, to include hunting, I own some of my guns for no other reason than they are fun to shoot.   A humorus side note: I own one gun strictly for fishing, sounds odd but its common practice (at least in Alaska) to shoot large Halibut before bringing them aboard.'
+p9926
+aS'This is retarded. A species would be defined by the genome, not which organs work the way they are supposed to or not.'
+p9927
+aS"It's remarkable then, how much progress we've made. You may or may not approve of the theory, but it works very well at learning more about biology."
+p9928
+aS'the blog is just the link for the article....geez, get a grip.'
+p9929
+aS"It varies. Sometimes elementary/middle school kids and sometimes older minors like high school kids. I not talking about gangbangers if this is where you're going."
+p9930
+aS"You know they are having a fit,and when everyone see's the streets aren't running red maybe more states will pick it up and follow."
+p9931
+aS'Because most people are Christian.'
+p9932
+aS'wrong again,   only 154 justifiable homicides out of thousands of murders   * In 2005, 30,694 people in the United States died from firearm-related deaths \xe2\x80\x93 12,352 were murdered; 17,002 killed themselves; 789 were accidents; 330 died by police intervention, and in 221, the intent was unknown. 6 In comparison, 33,651 Americans were killed in the Korean War and 58,193 Americans were killed in the Vietnam War.7   * An additional 71,417 people were shot and survived their injuries -- 52,748 people injured in an attack; 3,190 people injured in a suicide attempt; 14,678 people shot accidentally, and 801 people shot in a police intervention.8   * In 2004, firearms were used to murder 56 people in Australia, 184 people in Canada, 73 people in England and Wales, 5 people in New Zealand, and 37 people in Sweden.9 In comparison, firearms were used to murder 11,344 in the United States.10   * In 2006, there were only 154 justifiable homicides by private citizens using handguns in the United States.11   * For every time a gun is used in a home in a legally-justifiable shooting [note that every self-defense is legally justifiable] there are 22 criminal, unintentional, and suicide-related shootings.17   * The presence of a gun in the home triples the risk of homicide in the home.18   * The presence of a gun in the home increases the risk of suicide fivefold.19'
+p9933
+aS'Sorry, sometimes sarcasm is quite hard to read.'
+p9934
+aS'Well regulated as in the second amendment does not mean regulated by the government, it means well equiped and prepared. The framers of the constitution often spoke of a tyrannical government and how to keep one from coming to power, so why in the hell would they have said lets just give the government total control of guns. Your definition of well regulated makes about as much sense as adding another day to the week.'
+p9935
+aS'Since when were proteins no longer structures? A basic freshmen tool for teaching is the phrase "structure defines function."'
+p9936
+aS"Not knowing isn't the same as claiming magic."
+p9937
+aS"We can add to this list, Singin's desire of criminalizing gun owners who don't report gun thefts in a required time and to lock up all guns in a manner that will prevent thefts. He of course says that does not mean jail, but aiding and abetting and straw sales already require serious jail time. and straw sales is already a Federal Offense with either 5 or 10 year jail terms. So we are talking about Very Serious jail terms regardless of what Sinjin might say in order to sell the idea. And one more thing the Anti-gun forces want but won't say it now."
+p9938
+aS'So would you care if abortion were outlawed. If so, what would be bad about allowing a view that places objective value in human life to be the basis for making law?'
+p9939
+aS"Actually, that story was an invention after the fact. It never happened. At least that is what the witnesses who were there said. Why do christians feel that it is OK to invent such stories to support their point? Isn't that lying? Isn't lying wrong?"
+p9940
+aS"I'm glad to see you've finally come around."
+p9941
+aS'I never said anything about a conspiracy Peeling. I very clearly gave valid reasons to Consider that scientific GRANTS and pay increases for these scientists are based on making new and previously undiscovered claims that forward the science. That is the greatest motivation to lie, cheat, create and falsify evidence which adds to the scientists personal wealth and further promotes a false science that is rife with selfish motivations to preserve, protect and promote it.'
+p9942
+aS'But let me guess ... if they step down RIGHT after they find they will have to issue to gay couples, you\'d be in favor of them being able to be sued for it, simply because the "discrimination" in such an event was toward gays? Right? At least if you are consistent with your stance elsewhere in regards to \'timing\' ...   Anyway, aside from that inconsistency with your position elsewhere, I agree that county officials should need to comply. After all, there are probably OTHER examples whereby county officials have to do things that they are religiously against, such as issue divorce papers. Or marry some drunk couple that they know aren\'t really being serious even though they\'re tying the knot ... If all county officials could just refuse to do their job because of their objections--for WHATEVER reasons--it would be a collosal mess.'
+p9943
+aS'Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahaha. The deliberately out-of-context quotes again that directly contradict the conclusions of the authors.'
+p9944
+aS'Well, that just means I\'m a more capable lump of cells now than I was when I was first conceived. I started doing what most embryos do when they are first formed, and that is develop. I\'m still developing. I can\'t seem to stop it. I think my body has stopped growing (in height anyway), but seem to keep filling my brain with more and more experience.   The point I was trying to make is that since there is a continuum of existence between conception and death, there is no line you can draw (save birth, which may or may not be considered an arbitrary boundary to personhood) that would constitute some sort of a change in what you are.   I started as one cell and continued to grow and develop, which I am still doing now. If I am a person now, I was a person when I was the zygote.   If we are going to talk about aortion in this society we should be honest about it and not try to mince words when it come to killing a baby. I\'m not "anti-choice" but I think we should honestly recognize that an embryo is a living human individual that dies when it is aborted. That thought turns most people off so they have to make themselves believe that an abortion is not a killing since the embryo wasn\'t a person. Logically, it is a killing. A life was ended. The question then becomes, is it murder? I don\'t happen to think that, but it is really quite subjective anyway.'
+p9945
+aS"So you're actually claiming that it is a lie to say that the UK has a lower gun crime rate than the US? Even if the police were miscounting crimes it's still a huge and unjustified leap in logic to conclude from that that the UK does not have a lower gun crime rate."
+p9946
+aS'Among the icons (idols) of modern mysticism there is one that reigns supreme. It is the myth of evolution. We scoff at the gods of the anchient pagans as if we were untouched by their superstition and yet we mystify our science with the likes of Darwin, the high priest of natural selection. Darwin taught a fable that started in a warm little pond and through a process that has became known as gradualism (minute changes over eons) all life arose out of a primordial soup.   Life is not chaotic it is orderly and requires replication. Without this you just have a lot of chemicals mixing in an infinite variety. The reason that life must be derived from life (biogenesis) in the minds of most is that this is the only way we have ever seen it happen. "You can imagine anything you like but you can only understand the truth" as Newton said. Now if amino acids are the mirror image of nucleic acid sugars and this in true of all living things then we are limited to this as fundamental to life. This in my opinion is the fundamental first step and it cannot happen peicemeal, it all has to happen all at once.   One more thing, evolution is a biogenesis theory and actual evidence for abiogenesis is rare and fragmentary just as it is for every other aspect of the single common ancestor model.'
+p9947
+aS'Then why does the following occur?'
+p9948
+aS'That clearly went whooshing over your head.   It was intended to mock the OP. (Interesting "new" bibilical revelation, indeed.)   I don\'t put any credence in silly comparisons like the trite Kennedy/Lincoln litany that arose in the 60\'s or the similarly absurd list that INRI posted. They both demonstrate how one can concoct meaningless comparisons in an attempt to invent a non-existent connection between two unrelated events.   It is the same for all "prophesies".'
+p9949
+aS"On what grounds do you seek to redefine the institution of marriage from it's accepted standard in this country?"
+p9950
+aS'Prove your assertion that he has called himself a conservative Christian rather than a conservative Republican OP. Support your clai if you can or stop trying to lump everyone on the right together.'
+p9951
+aS'Really? The first description is of a Hippo? Here\'s a picture of a Hippo charlie: http://www.dkimages.com/discover/pre...0/90065521.JPG   Now tell me how this fits the description of the behemoths tail? I quote:   Job 40:15-24 (New International Version)   15 "Look at the behemoth, [a]   which I made along with you   and which feeds on grass like an ox.   16 What strength he has in his loins,   what power in the muscles of his belly!   [b]17 His tail sways like a cedar;   the sinews of his thighs are close-knit.   18 His bones are tubes of bronze,   his limbs like rods of iron.(In Hebrew, this literally reads, \xe2\x80\x9che lets hang his tail like a cedar.\xe2\x80\x9d)A Cedar is not a tiny insignificant tree as the hippos tail is when compared to other tails on other animals. You insult the intelligence of the ancients to imply that they couldn\'t either name or describe a hippo by name which as you yourself admit, was a common animal in that part of the world.   As for Leviathan being a crocodile or an alligator, again, are you telling me that their hides are invulnerable to arrows or spears and cannot be punctured at all? Would those animals stand firm and not flee from men who stood up to them with spears, javelins and arrows? Not on your life.   \xe2\x80\x9cThough the sword reaches him, it cannot avail; nor does spear, dart, or javelin. He regards iron as straw, and bronze as rotten wood.'
+p9952
+aS'Object to the woman being required to remain pregnant when she does not want to be.'
+p9953
+aS'I think your idea has merit. However, before I would fully endorse it, I am interested in how you see it being implemented and administered from the standpoint of equal protection under the law.'
+p9954
+aS'The article said very little about his observations and almost nothing about his methods.'
+p9955
+aS"Thanks, Clive, you're a good sport. Of course I can't agree with the XXXXX part. Rash, unwise, unknowledgeable, maybe, but not fools."
+p9956
+aS'I disagree for the same reasons I have been giving all along. There may be some legislation that was passed that has kept corporations small (Anti-trust) but did it really benefit the society?'
+p9957
+aS"At 13 - abortion, unless she is uniquely physically advanced. It's incredible how many men are sure being pregnant is no big deal....   Steve - regarding whether she can consent to abortion.   Technically I don't think a minor can consent to either sex or abortion in any state (unless emancipated). I know that is how it is in Minnesota. I am sure the laws vary from state to state.   Medical decisions generally fall to the parents.   I know whether minors should have access to abortion without parental notifications is a controversial issue. On the surface one would think, of course not - but there is concern for those girls who are in abusive situations at home. And as I told VOR, if I had a daughter bound and determined not to tell me, I would rather she have access to safe abortion than resort to something drastic.   A baby pregnant - yikes. Personally I think it's innapropriate and dangerous for a little girl to carry a pregnancy to term. But I would sure love to simply avoid it through better prevention. I do not think an abortion would be anything but scary for her either - but technically, at that age, it would be safer.   Steve - in no way, shape or form is a 13 year old ready for this - not physically, mentally or emotionally - not for pregnancy, and certainly not for parenting. I have a neices that old - good gracious - no way!"
+p9958
+aS'Actually, selection occurs by differential reproductive rates. What this means is that organisms which reproduce more will have more offspring than the others (obviously). Therefore, traits that help organisms reproduce will become more prevailant.'
+p9959
+aS"Do you want something other than peppered moths, bacteria developing resistance to antibiotics, Darwin's finches, and the other species of the Galapagos?   Maybe biologists are not allowed to do tests on animals that will kill many of them. This reminds me of Kent Hovind's reward for evidence of evolution: impossible to fulfill."
+p9960
+aS'From that site:'
+p9961
+aS"So, in summary, you aren't against the death penalty on principle. You just want it used judiciously? Same here. Where we'll differ is in the details of what's judiciously."
+p9962
+aS"Oh? Don't you think that since Jesus said that whosoever so much as hated their brother without a cause is a murder?   Or are you Jewish and don't believe the New Testament? Is that why you say the Bible says nothing about abortion, or just plain killing at all?"
+p9963
+aS'No I do not say that the creation of energy and matter   did not coincide the creation of the laws that govern/regulate   them. What I say is that the laws are not the RESULTS of the   existence of energy, matter etc.'
+p9964
+aS"In a way, taking rights away is an American value since we have prescribed methods for doing it. For instance, we have legislatures which posess authority to remove a large number of what you likely consider to be rights. Here are just a small number that come to mind:   1) Right to murder   2) Right to own slaves   3) Right to rape   4) Right to abusing children   5) Right to vote   6) Right to smoke (if you're under 18)   7) Right to drink (18th Amendment)   8) Right to engage in certain activities in public   9) Right to drive as fast as one wants   10) Right to dump dangerous chemicals in the nearest river   The list goes on really. The fact is that you don't object to taking rights away in principle, you only object to taking away those rights that you wish to retain. That is quite inconsistent.   Where do you get the idea that one has a right to perform an abortion anyway?"
+p9965
+aS'Do you mean like Piltdown Man? It was displayed there for 40 years.   "The Eoanthropus dawsoni, or Piltdown Man, was on display at the Natural History Museum in London for 40 years. It was removed when advanced dating techniques not only showed that the bones were only a few hundred years old, but that some of them weren\'t even human."   http://www.mentalfloss.com/press_oklahoman2.htm   Do you guarantee that all of the other displays at the Museum are true? No, of course not. Many other things there said to be \'true\' are only \'true\' in a transient sense of the word (that only science seems to use)   http://www.clarku.edu/~piltdown/map_...klywiener.html Suggests that Piltdown Man had good science behind it, at the time.   Never-the-less the Natural History Museum provides many examples of artistic licence, such as the \'human-like\' hand given to a restoration of Australopithecus, displayed at the museum.   "Shattering the Myths of Darwinism", p205'
+p9966
+aS"Actually, it's not. The big bang theory is also science.   What exactly do you think the big bang theory is? What evidence do you think supports it? What evidence is there against it? why do you disagree? What is your education in cosmology - in other words, why is your disagreement rational?"
+p9967
+aS'Yep. Here in the U.S., the 5.7 ammo is the ordinary hollow point for Civilian use. It does not penetrate. It is not Armor Piercing.'
+p9968
+aS"That's not evolution. Life has evolved in the lab, many times."
+p9969
+aS'What does a mutation have to do with a heart transplant? What are you smoking?'
+p9970
+aS"Because you people keep wanting one restriction after another after another after another. Nothing is ever good enough for you, you always want more than ever. Well we don't want to abide by your wishes, gun ownership is a recognized right, and your hatred of rights won't be tolerated. We're not going to just stand by and be painted as the bad guys because you have the mentally disabled belief that banning gun ownership will reduce crime, and anybody who disagrees with you want to see people killed."
+p9971
+aS'Well, at least accoreding to your "because I say so" belief. The woman, of course, don\'t need to pay attention to your desire to control her own body in bondage to your particular brand of outraged morality.'
+p9972
+aS'Interesting thought..... such a situation would theorectically remove the division of opinion that exists based upon the perspective of gender (ie. the pro-life religious male) and would make any difference of opinion be based on moral/philosophical considerations alone.   You could argue it would shift opinion towards the mix currently held by women as everyone would be in the position of having to bear pregnancy. Given that there is a full mix of religious and other beliefs in the current day female population perhaps this would be a good analogy to such a state of being you suggest.'
+p9973
+aS'So you would go with the unknowable argument?   Well then this is applicable to your response:   So now you have said that god is undefinable or often said "supernatural".   T:I believe in God   A:What is God?   T:I dont know.   Then my question to you would be that if you dont know what God is... then what is it that you believe in?'
+p9974
+aS"Because of the rare nature of fossilisation, we don't expect to see perfect transitional lineages through millions and millions of years. I really don't think there are any scientists that think there SHOULD be millions and millions of transitions, because of the nature of fossilisation.   Science is like a detective story. If you wanted to solve a murder, for example, you take a look at the evidence. You have a gun, spent rounds, dead body etc. To convict someone of a murder, you need fingerprints, blood on clothes, DNA and such to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the person you are accusing actually shot the deceased and you can convict WITHOUT an eye witness.   It's the same for science and the fossil record, because there is no-one around who directly observed animals undertaking large changes over time. But if you take a look at the fossil record, molecular biology, geological time etc, this is what it shows. From what we understand from the last 100 or so years of evidence and investigation, biological evolution is the best scientific explanation we have for the diversity of life on earth.   3 questions for Calligirl.   For the 4th time. What would be YOUR definition of a transitional form?   When calculating the age of this earth, how precise do you expect or want scientists to get?   How many transitional fossils would you LIKE to see in what period of time?   I really don't think this will progress if you can't tell us what it is you would like to see."
+p9975
+aS'Two things, Symbiote   1) what is the objective basis of rights that makes it different from other value judgements of the majority?   2) when two rights come into conflict, is the result always simple inaction?   3) is the importance of rights greater than democracy? Or is democracy a right? If the latter, how does this work with (2)?   4) how do you react to the fact that in the sorts of cases I mention the results of a rights system is clearly bad for individual people?'
+p9976
+aS"I know, Chloe's misuse of the word strikes again."
+p9977
+aS'Certainly, because with calm empathy you can casually address such a matter simply because the struggle does not pertain to you personally.   To be able to put into question the love of another human being is simply not only alarming in nature, but damning to the very definition of love, equality, and freedom in creation of man....   And to trump this as a question of morality only serves as a mask to curtail the prejudice objections one personally has to a ceremony, right, and relationship that person will not even be personally affected by....'
+p9978
+aS'False. See above.'
+p9979
+aS'logic would lead one to believe abortion is wrong...but why be consistent in your thinking.   The point is, logic and rational thinking is not a requirement to make a law. You can ban abortion is you want...the states did it and the constitution allows it, even if 5 legislatures think otherwise.'
+p9980
+aS"You don't consider yourself anymore advanced than animals? Not seperated specially in anyway? If humans are nothing but animals, than you have to question your own views and morals. For if we are just animals, than we have no cause or goals. You may as well kill yourself right now.   Please re-think this idea you have. I understand from your posts that you have a hard emotional problem, and I would urge you to please try and answer yourself those questions. You're views on this issue are built on hate, and annoyance. What morals do you have to support these views other than - You don't like it. -?"
+p9981
+aS'Gary Ridgway, the serial murderer of some 60 or more women, possibly more.'
+p9982
+aS'Please define "climb upward" and "downhill slide" in biologically meaningful terms. Please define "degeneration."'
+p9983
+aS'Actually, I think Kronos is right in this case--at least from the standpoint of most consitutional scholars. Of course the framers didn\'t envision the wording to be used in this way for this purpose--this is what\'s simply called a "loophole", in this case anyway. It\'s why there has been an effort in recent years to close the loophole with a constitutional amendment defining marriage.'
+p9984
+aS'But we have an enumerated Constitutional RKBA. Apples to oranges.'
+p9985
+aS"And what does it matter if they're in the army reserve, or a lawyer, a teacher, a doctor?"
+p9986
+aS"To say nothing of the possible threats to people's safety, if not actual acts of violence."
+p9987
+asS'val_ind'
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\ No newline at end of file